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Carol - apparently 'shite' is the older form of the word, existant in Old English, which got shortened to 'shit'. I had never noticed any class distictions in its use by the British before, though personally I find 'shite' far more satisfying for reasons I cannot analyze. As in... no, wait, I shall keep that thought to myself.
Bogues
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:40:13 (BST)

Disgusting? I'm really puzzled now.
Bob
US - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:37:36 (BST)

Bob: Shut your disgusting mouth. That is all.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:36:05 (BST)

Steve - I couldn't possibly take your single off you - I look up virtually *everything* I ever post here. I've more than enough pointless triv stuffed into my head - any more and my ears'll bleed...
Bogues <Shameless searcher>
Pink Fairies? - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:26:22 (BST)

"[J]umped [yo] shit"??? You so street, Lutha!
Bob
USA - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:23:04 (BST)

And Carol: There clearly *is* a double standard here. When Robin can suggest that I should be slammed hard in the face with an iron mask, no one says anything in protest. But when I calmly and civilly questioned your assertion that African Americans are the single most oppressed group in U.S. history, Mike Fowler and Sonja Pedersen jumped my shit. That is a glaring double standard, my dear.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:53:26 (BST)

You're right that we haven't seen postings here from racist skinheads, Carol. But I was using skinheads as an example, to undercut your "everyone's opinion has value" argument. I disagree with that assertion, as I disagree with much of what you say here. There are some people here for whom I have absolutely no respect, so I guess I won't be able to fulfill requirement #2. I'll have to carry on without my sainthood. Darn.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:50:43 (BST)

Oh no, not more flame wars! QUICK everyone who doesn't want to get involved: name your 5 favorite BB tunes--the first ones that come into your head. 1) The Short Answer 2)Between the wars 3) Greetings to the new Brunette 4)St. Swithin's Day 5) Levi Stubbs Tears
Susan
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:46:41 (BST)

Bogues: B.B. song inspired by his son on William Bloke (not our favorite, I know...) Space race is over. Bill said that the song's origin was Jack's interest in the moon when he first started talking.
Susan
Santa Cruz, USA - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:42:55 (BST)

Steve, shouting racist at skinheads proves nothing because they are proud to be racists.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:40:58 (BST)

Luther, what the fuck it the matter with you?
Red Robin
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:40:48 (BST)

Wasps..the skinheads of the insect world
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:33:05 (BST)

and no searching?
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:32:19 (BST)

Bogues you bastard...ok single on its way address please.....CHINKY is an aweful word, the line between lets go down the chinkies and "The Chinky Bastards" is easily crossed by many people... you treading a thinline there Carol with the Skinheads...I had a skinhead when I was 13, only because of the reggae song skinhead moonstomp by symarip and me Mam had bought me a harrington jacket(dead hard,pet)and a pair of monkey boots??..then my brother pointed out what a twat I looked, so I bought a wig..(not really)..ok Bogues Larry Wallis who was on the live stiffs tour name one previous band he was in (prog rock)
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
no xmas for junkies(john quays?..geddit), - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:31:10 (BST)

No one who posts here is a skinhead, Luther. However, dismissing skinheads as racist shit(e) proves nothing. Condemning racism and the acts of racists is important, but once in a while, skinheads have been turned around when shown compassion.
CAROL
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:09:01 (BST)

Do you respect the opinions of racist skinheads, Carol? Or you dismiss them as full of shite? I'm just wondering how far I'm supposed to take this "be nice to people" crap you're laying on me as a condition of sainthood.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:28:03 (BST)

I have something very important to ask. Last night I watched Warriors, the BBC movie about British UN peacekeepers, and I noticed something that puzzled me. The working class soldiers (mostly from Liverpool) used the word "shite." So far, so good. But the upper class officers said "shit," the way Americans do (expect when they say caca). So is this a class thing, or is it regional, and the closer one gets to Scotland, the more one says Shite. Please enlighten me.
Carol
land of excrement - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:18:57 (BST)

I must apolgize to Luther. The Pope is fallable. What I meant to say is: I would gladly canonize you, Luther,...
Pope Carol
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:13:07 (BST)

I would gladly you, Luther if you do the following: 1) not quote song lyrics as an argument; 2) respect others' opinions and not just dismiss them; 3) stop calling people shallow and hypocritical; 4) stop personalizing discussions; 5) stop complaining that there is a double standard and everyone thinks you are the devil. I know that the last one would make you a martyr, but a false martyr. People on here think you are very intelligent and have interesting things to add to discussions. It is your tone that they object to. Oh, one more thing: neither the Pope, Jesus or his father cares if people's grammar is correct. We understand what they mean, and content is far more important than context. Remember, the humble will rule.
Pope Carol
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:12:06 (BST)

I'm guessing that I'll have to start using the word "chinky" to be a saint in Carol's book.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:10:04 (BST)

'No Xmas for John Quays' by The Fall...
Bogues
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 02:39:41 (BST)

'No Xmas for John Quays' by The Fall...
Bogues
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 02:39:15 (BST)

Luther, how about 198 MP3s of you singing the full Alan Hull/lindisfarne back catalogue in the bath/shower...great reggae album to buy is.."Dont Call Us Immigrants" a compilation of the British Reggae, including Misty in Roots, Black Slate and Matumbi's reading of Bob Dylans Man is me.its on pressure sounds pscd28
Steve <lower working class poser>
one notch under a snakes belly, hallelujah! brothers and sisters - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 02:25:08 (BST)

Carol: What must I do in order to be canonized by you?
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:45:52 (BST)

if you thought i was serious please ignore the post before last?..eh!
steve <on a highway to hell>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:25:39 (BST)

ok Bogues, here's a real challenge, a rare dr feelgood single(very rare) if you can tell me which band and song does the name johnquays come from
Steve <larrywallis' paychedelic rowdies@nicklowes last chicken in the shop>
a live stiff, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:22:06 (BST)

if anyone wants a sample of my healing liquid gold, e-mail johnquays
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:16:45 (BST)

thanks Pete
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:14:37 (BST)

By Ailing I meant spiritually not physically and by spiritually i mean mind, not soul..(sheesh its called covering your tracks).....if super Kev puts three past seaman on saturday he will be a siant - no worries..
Steve <thesoundofthesuburbs@thedaytheworldturneddayglo>
are you anal or oral family, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:12:46 (BST)

Steve, that was evil.
pete w <but very amusing indeed>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:07:50 (BST)

I was given a platic Virgin Mary effigy off an Ailing Catholic Italian Employer once,she had been to Lourdes, so I took it home emptied it, and filled it up with my very healthy 'yellow' Vitamin C induced pee. I gave her it back the next day saying it had turned gold over night and she should keep it safe as it could be a signal??..bless her.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
miracles happen all thetime like arsenal wining the championship this year, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:04:07 (BST)

Wow! thanks carol! *heals you all of your ailments. Except steve*
pete w <deathtotheunbelievers>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:59:11 (BST)

What's so wrong with Opray?...ok she's stinking rich, sometimes makes one want to vomit..but the other day I watched her do a show on parenting, and it was very interesting, with specialists showing how parents can fuck kids up. I suppose she's an easy target on here..Ive met many expert mothers who hit there kids
Steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:57:47 (BST)

In the interim, I'd really quite like one of those plastic virgin marys to stick on my dashboard. Mark - I think you have to give ageing musicians, like ageing family members, liberty to potter about becoming completely absorbed in side-projects which end up sorely trying the patience of their family/fans. Still it's nice to see some outright condemnation of Billy here....
pete w <hardcoretim@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:57:38 (BST)

I long ago declared you a saint, Pete W, and I have the power, since I am the Pope.
Carol <whatareyuoutalkingabout@thisistherealworld.mtv>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:55:48 (BST)

It's kind of an ambition of mine to be canonised by the catholic church, as it happens. I reckon I can get my surviving relatives and numerous progeny to fake the miracles... Hester, are you stoned again? :)
pete w <thursdaythursdaythursday/fuckandbuggery>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:51:25 (BST)

Leicester 2000 Thanks Billy - paid £12.50 to listen to about 90 minutes of you promoting your bloody Mermaid album. I went to be inspired - I ended up, well I suppose.........cheers for nothing mate....still I have got all the old stuff to remind me.
Mark
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:43:19 (BST)

Just a couple of things - I read that you can only be sainted once you have three official Vatican-approved miracles directly credited to you (though these can be posthumous miracles). Hilarious. On the subject of native Americans, surely that term applies to anyone born in the American continent? And finally, I have one Wreckless Eric record - an 8-track 10-inch brown vinyl EP called 'Wreckless Eric', including a cover of Ian Dury & Russel Hardy's 'Rough Kids'. A quid second hand. Bargain.
Rich
London, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:26:19 (BST)

Stung into action by "the real world" I'm off to work. Not a life, but a livelihood. Potential discussion seed - now that BB's a papa too, has he written anything specifically aimed at (or even about) kids? The fact that 'Tank Park Salute' rates as a favourite of mine is based upon its child-centred references. I suppose 'Hoodoo Voodoo' on MM1 is kind of for kids. Anything else?
Boguespierre
Yokohama, City of Industry, Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:43:00 (BST)

to eleborate upon what Red Robin said, Colubus cam here seekeing the East Indies, looking for of all things Pepper! Pepper was like gold in Europe at that time, before refirgeration and it was the only way to preserve food and mask any old flovors He landed on the island of Hispanola (Hati and the Dominican Republic) believeing he had reached India.
James <Hooked to Ska>
New Paltz, NY, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:30:48 (BST)

Starting to doubt my own identity now... For understandable reasons I'm not aware of any blood link to the Fowlers of Albert Square, unless perhaps I *am* a fictional construct. All my most colourful relatives are on the Irish side, so bear different surnames. My kid brother *has* named his eldest boy Harry, which conjours up images of an East End spiv to those of us around in the 60s (some connection to Kenny Lynch, wasn't it?). I can't think of a coherent link in the posts Sonj refers to - I have my own fair share of fecal war stories with the three boys, but they are better unpublished. Tony Hancock? I tried to be a blood donor recently, but got all the way to the ARC to be told that as a Brit I'm irredeemably tarnished with the stigma of the Mad Cow....
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:18:49 (BST)

get lives
the real world
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:16:57 (BST)

No that's mark fowler and he definitely isn't called Bogues because he's a real personand has market stall in Albert Sq, an everything. Tak, i lige måde.
tettland <still here... just>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:35:58 (BST)

oh tett! it is so bloody confusing. isn't mike fowler someone in east enders? or am i thinking of corrie. no, that's mike baldwin... god nat, sojve godt.
sonja 
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:30:39 (BST)

that should read 'Being done'... you 'ave been!
Tettland 
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:22:09 (BST)

And just one more thing... 'Being done' ... you've been!
Tettland <He's got the natural arrogance of an exclamation mark...!!!!>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:20:35 (BST)

Sonj, I think Mike (Fowler) is Bogues in disguise, or is it the other way round? Does Bogues have a real person's name? Does he really exist? Oh, it can't be true! Right, that's spoiled it for me I'm going to bed!
Tettland <tired and a few biscuits short of a packet>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:18:04 (BST)

brring brring
*
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:12:25 (BST)

'being done' even...
C
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:56:42 (BST)

Derik, I don't think Duras is bring done any justice by comparing her to 'Nouveau-Roman' type writers. Recommendations? - Apart from the obvious 'Hiroshima mon amour', 'The Lover' is not bad, but I like her shorter stuff better. Try her shortest and in my opinion most intense piece called 'L'homme assis dans le couloir' ('The man in the corridor'?) which you can finish in under an hour.
Carsten
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:54:32 (BST)

jon, i am watching HM but i have to leave the room when it gets very violent.
sonja-gain
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:49:07 (BST)

What is the link between the last couple of posts, Bogues and Tony Hancock? Cyber fiver for the first correct answer..
sonj <this competition is not open to the reed family or any of their offfspring>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:47:48 (BST)

It has been raining for almost a month now. I have had a migraine every day since Noah began building his ark. There was a long enough break for us to bring the kids to the Philadelphia Zoo yesterday, and it's been on-and-off torrential downfalls ever since. We don't need the hose to wash the kids down.
Red Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 20:19:40 (BST)

Sounds unpleasant. It is raining here and i am wet. Over.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 20:14:23 (BST)

Kim: I've emailed you. I don't know if this will be helpful, but my twins both have some sort of intestinal ailment today - as did my 10-year-old a few days ago.
Red Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 20:10:16 (BST)

Kim. What's the weather like there? If at all possible leave children to run around naked outdoors. Hose down from time to time. Food does not need to be hot to be healthy.
sonj
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:53:18 (BST)

it's great here, while i have been at work the pc fairy has created a napster id for me and i've got loads of braggy stuff:)
sonj <is ther someone else on here with a name like but not quite mine. Who is mike? Sorry sadie, i thought you were sada.>
have i caught up yet?, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:48:42 (BST)

St. Chris wasn't demoted; he was just placed on a secondary list of saints that may or may not be fictional characters/legends. Catholics are permitted to honor him as they wish, and you can still buy St. Christopher medals and tacky dashboard statues.
Kim
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:47:19 (BST)

Red Robin and all others who have ever taken care of small children and lived to tell about it...please e-mail me as soon as possible, as I have been visited by The Fecal Fairy (literally) this afternoon and am having one of those What-The-F@#$?! moments and am in desperate need of childrearing advice.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:45:57 (BST)

jon, thanks for the grauniad thingy, i didn't get one today.
sonj
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:44:11 (BST)

They Un-sainted St. Christopher. But Tom Waits wrote a song about him, so he lives on.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:19:53 (BST)

St. Carol - the Lady of the Bay... That would make a good song!
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:06:59 (BST)

"too much".... another product of poor typing.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:05:51 (BST)

Theo, I think it's canonization. Because ole Nick and his family suffered. I am suffering at work right now. I want to be declared a saint. Actually, I'll settle for the Czar's jewels. That room made of amber that the Nazis destroyed. Most of the Russians in San Francisco want a decent job and a place to live. Sainthood be damned.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:04:40 (BST)

Sainthood is just another corrupt political coup. The connotations of sainthood have little to do with the political agendas of those who grant such titles. It is clear to much of reality is obscured by religious fantasy.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:04:19 (BST)

Apologises for the tautology (is that the right word ? is that how you spell it ?) below.
Theo
London, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:57:14 (BST)

Is it April Fools Day ? I've just seen that Tsar Nicholas II, and his family have been given 'Sainthoods' by The Russian Orthodox Church. Now, I accept the Church didn't exactly flourish after his death but, surely, giving such an honour to a murderer, such as he, is beyond a joke ? Which other historical fascists from history could be next ? When Maggie 'goes', could she be in line for one ?
Theo
London, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:50:45 (BST)

Hester: Even if I turned around and you were there wielding a plastic spoon I would have no idea it was you, as I have never seen you. Make sure you announce yourself first so my ghost can come back and haunt you.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:30:01 (BST)

EXPLICIT DISCLAIMER FOR SONJA PEDERSON AND MIKE FOWLER: No part of my last post was intended as an attack on Carol Tarlen.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:16:11 (BST)

NEW BRAGG COVERS! Thanks to Mark Warner in Australia, there are three new covers available for download from the Billy Bragg Digital Archive: (1) Jenny Morris, "The Price I Pay" (2) Deadbeat Society, "You Woke Up my Neighbourhood" (3) Dave Stewart & Barbara Gaskin, "Levi Stubbs' Tears" See http://hillstrom.iww.org/music/billybragg/other_artists_cover_Bragg/
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:15:34 (BST)

Hester, at the moment, there is nothing I would like more than to be killed with a plastic spoon. Dig away!
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:26:13 (BST)

The last time I saw Oprah - by accident - she was whining about her relatives all asking her for money. The show was about all these wealthy people, and how they are preyed on by relatives for handouts. For some reason, after that show, and I had no desire to see Oprah again.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:24:59 (BST)

hester, you will have to come to the US to do your dirty deeds, and we already have enough serial killers and mass murderers as it is. Stay on your side of the pond with your evil Oprah ways.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:20:00 (BST)

i bow to your superior knowledge. but oprah says 'native american', so im gonna have to kill you too robin.
hester <http://www.oprah.com/>
for all your oprah needs, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:13:27 (BST)

The term "indian" came from when Columbus, in his logues about the new world, described the people he had found here as being so beautiful, they must have been made in the image of God - in dios. There was no "India" in the 1490s. In this area, the Powhatan Renape nation holds a semi-annual event they call the American Indian Arts Festival. Their choice of words.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:11:23 (BST)

derik - thats it, im gonna have to kill you now. one of these days youll look over your shoulder, and ill be there brandishing my faithful plastic spoon, and before you can say 'angel network' ill have scooped out your insides. until then youll just have to live in fear.
hester
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:06:27 (BST)

I am scared you are watching Oprah at all, Hester.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:02:15 (BST)

derik & carol - i hope youre not going against the word of oprah, otherwise i may have to kill you
hester
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:01:19 (BST)

The American Indians I have met called themselves Indians. Once this guy handed my grandson a dollar and said, "This was given to you by an American Indian." Then he laughed. This was in 1988. I grew up in Nevada in the 50's, and as a child I went to school with Indians. Of course, no one had thought of the term Native American. Also, wouldn't Indians be native to the place they immigrated from, not the place they immigrated to? Of course, ultimately, I think we should call people what they want to be called, and as far as I know, American Indians prefer that term or else the names of their respective tribbes.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:00:32 (BST)

Wish I had me Alexie book with me, I would quote the poem he wrote on the term 'indian'. Something about they are keeping it for themselves. He also says he pronounces it 'in-din'. ?
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:58:45 (BST)

i thought they were only called indians cos the big explorer guy thought he was in india, which, personally i would insulting. and besides, oprah said thats you call them, so it must be true.
hester <still here, in my pyjamus>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:55:29 (BST)

Carol: Depending on what theories you follow, humans would only be native to one part of the earth where they first evolved. I think in this case native refers to the first humans in an area.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:53:57 (BST)

American Indians prefer to be called Indians or to be called by their tribal names--Dakota Souix, Navajo, Hopi, etc. The American Indian Movement (AIM) wasn't called the Native American Movement. One reason is that Indians are not native--they immigrated (correct my terminology if this is the wrong word) many, many hundreds of years ago--not sure when.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:49:29 (BST)

I was a Minor, But I wasn't a Docker !
still suitable though..
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:46:39 (BST)

"minors"
Bob
USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:39:57 (BST)

Strange but true - follow the link to Merchandise above. Look at the cover photo to "Still Suitable For Miners". What's wrong with that picture? Answer tomorrow in the unlikely event no-one else spots it...
Bogues <Last contribution before bed>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:27:53 (BST)

Yes, and the alcohol too. I assume there were free drinks to gamblers?(that's what they do in Tahoe..) What a scary additctive mix! Oppression and addiction go hand in hand (Slaves and sugar/tobacco production, alcohol on reservations, the list goes on)
Susan
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:27:26 (BST)

On reparations - it's quite likely that my mother's Irish ancestors were repressed by my father's English ancestors. What to do? (I'll write myself a cheque, but how much for...?).
Bogues <getting silly - it's late...>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:16:15 (BST)

Tastes *really* bad. I went to Foxwoods in Connecticut shortly after it opened a few years back, and have ever since been haunted by a feeling that I was in the presence of some great collar-and-tie EVIL. The place exists to suck money from those who cannot afford it - little booths all around the gaming floors where they will give you a cash advance against your credit card (car, house, children...). I hate gambling for the same reason I hate hard drugs - I know that I would be too weak to back away once I got started.
Boguespierre
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:13:33 (BST)

Yes, this has been a great topic. It is important to look at: why reparation instead of changing the presently oppressive system. I think that reparations do allow folks to feel like "oh well, I did something, I can let go of my white liberal guilt now..." And it is problematic to *rate* the oppressions of different groups. So while I don't want to totally dis the reparations idea, total change of the system should be advocated--I suppose one is for the politicians and the other is for the more revolutionary folks. ah, so much work to do! Also: I'd love more information on the Native American Casino issue. It does *taste* bad.
Susan <anotherwishywashywannabe>
Santa Cruz, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:04:17 (BST)

Tettland - ignite away, the debate itself has been thoroughly interesting and well-discussed (we just got a bit pissy with each other, as usual). As a silly example, it would be facetious to say that the English deserve compensation from the Italians for the oppression inherent in the Roman occupation (though I still think we should sue those Norman bastards...). I guess reparations can only be meaningful where an identifiable group *still* clearly suffers the consequences of a historical act (or contemporary act, for that matter). Maybe the whole focus upon the acts of our ancestors is inappropriate - maybe we should be looking at what's wrong here and now, and working to correct it irrespective of which long-dead oppressors created the situation.
Boguespierre
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:53:23 (BST)

Bogues: I don't think there is such a thing as a cast iron PC term... Re: Reparations: Once you start where do you stop? I mean there are few that have not been screwed over by someone in power. You could take it all the way back to the Middle Ages and the peasants in the Feudal System (or does the bourgeoise 'revolution' make up for that?). I don't think handing out money is going to solve anything without changing the system all this is contained within...
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:51:58 (BST)

Mr CashWilson: if you're looking in, this one's for you. Welcome to the BBgb.
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com > working part-time! you cheeky monkey.>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:45:55 (BST)

Do I get any extra bonus points for having the same first names as one Steven William Bragg?
Tettland <Gordon Bennett! The sun's shining in Denmark!>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:44:49 (BST)

At the risk of re-igniting the debate about reparations to ethnic/cultural groups, I'd like to add a few things. I don't think that there is anyone on the BBgb that would disagree with the central point that African Americans and American Indians (Native Americans?) have suffered massive injustices both historically and currently (as have/do Black, Pakistani, Indian, Irish, etc. Britons for that matter). I think we'd all agree with the general principle that people who have had something stolen from them (land, property etc) should, as minimum justice and where possible, get back what they had stolen from them. If this is not possible then some form of reparation should be made, obviously by the body responsible for the injustice. But we should remember that financial reparation is no substitute for real social justice. I think Norman Finkelstein's (a nod to Bogues) really interesting point is that there is a moral problem (for a socialist) when you start drawing up heirarchies of injustice by saying this group is more deserving of financial reparations than that group. Then you end up in the morally reprehensible position of saying that our suffering throughout history has been worse than yours (eg. the crimes of the slave trade vs. the crimes of the Holocaust etc). Ultimately there are so many victims of colonialism, nationalism, and patriarchal-capitalism (what about women, the disabled, the working class, gays/lesbians?) that the only way to secure justice for all victims of opression is radical resdistribution of wealth and power, and respect for human and civil rights as laid down in UN declaration of human rights. In a phrase, democratic socialism and I thought most of us here believed in that anyway?
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com waitingforthegreatleapforward>
Copenhagen, DK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:42:23 (BST)

Good point, Derik. What on earth is a cast-iron PC term that one can safely use then?
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:37:28 (BST)

No thanks Bogues. I will not apologize for that one. If someone wants to flame me on that, it is fine. But I'd like to see a reference from an actual Indian on it.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:36:43 (BST)

Actually Hester many Indians prefer that term. As America is a name that white people gave this land. See refered to Sherman Alexie book.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:35:31 (BST)

Sir! Sir! Sir! It was Derik who said "Indians", sir! Oooh, he's going to be in all sorts of trouble when Luther logs on.... Quick, Derik, apologize pre-emptively and save us another flame war.
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:35:28 (BST)

or indeed stop *watching* oprah, although...
hester <mulletspice@hotmail.com>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:27:10 (BST)

sorry for being pedantic and overly pc and everything, but shouldnt that be 'native americans', and not 'indians' (as far as i can make out its a bit like calling someone a 'paki', which isnt nice).
hester <maybe i should stop the oprah winfrey show>
just back from sunny stockport, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:25:33 (BST)

Robin - Uhh, yes. Testicles are funny. Not with any particular sexual connotation, just because they're... I don't know, somewhat ridiculous. I find the Japanese attitude to such things quite healthy, actually.
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:24:10 (BST)

Waiting for Princess Mononoke on video, as i missed it at the one theatre it played at in the area. I loved "My Neighbor Totoro" though. Saw it twice.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:22:06 (BST)

Didn't mean to ask that twice, though that question does bear repeating.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:16:54 (BST)

Bogues: you are showing testicle jokes to an 8-year-old?
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:15:02 (BST)

Bogues: you are showing testicle jokes to an 8-year-old?
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:14:59 (BST)

Theo, I saw the typo before I hit "submit" and thought it was too funny to change. I know Santa isn't Satan, but as I said before, red does seem to be the appropriate color for ay of them - Santa, Satan, S
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:11:22 (BST)

Derik - as planned, managed to get hold of "Heisei tanuki gassen pompoko", and at a sale price of 1970 Yen (~$18, which is a real bargain since it is listed at ~$40). Watched it on Saturday with my 8 year old, who was totally comfortable with the Japanese despite having been away for the best part of a year, whilst my aged brain struggled to keep pace. I'm not sure that this one will ever make it onto the Disney list like "Kiki" or "Princess Mononoke" - it's a bit too Japanese centric, and I doubt US audiences are ready for all the testicle jokes (it's funny how the Japanese are as uptight as anyone about a lot of stuff, but they just *love* willy gags...).
Bogues
Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:51:27 (BST)

derik... thanks for the tape... not bad for the morning commute. i think i needed something a bit louder for monday morning.
keri
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:38:39 (BST)

That last message should have read that the Dutch documentary ended with soldiers leaving for Kosovo. Sorry.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:29:35 (BST)

Last year there was a discussion here about the BBC program Warriors (British peacekeeping troops in Bosnia). I saw it last night on my newly expanded to about 100 channels TV service. It was excellent and reminded me of a Dutch documentary I saw in May called Crazy, which chronicled posttraumatic syndrome in Dutch peacekeeping troops from Vietnam to Bosnia. It ended with soldiers leaving for Bosnia. I think that UN troops should be allowed to protect civilian refugees. All in all, I feel we owe UN soldiers from all nations respect and gratitude.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:27:59 (BST)

If you want to keep an eye on the democratic convention protests from an independent view... http://la.indymedia.org/
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:16:13 (BST)

Odd, Indians came up on the guestbook while I was at home reading two books by Sherman Alexie, an excellend contemporary Indian writer. I highly recommend his poetry and prose as a way to learn a bit about contemporary reservation life. "Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven" (short stories) or his most recent "One Stick Song" (poetry).. http://www.fallsapart.com/
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:11:13 (BST)

Carsten: I have been reading some of the french nouveau roman. Marguerite Duras is considered one of them. Would you recommend one of her works?
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:08:36 (BST)

Jon, makes a little more sense if you put them in alphabetical order and only use the first name.
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:01:48 (BST)

Thanks Carsten! Just heard a news report on Radio 4 that K4 troops have "taken over" a lead smelting factory in Kosovo (Siberian enclave bit)to save the locals from suffering from lead poisoning pollution. Pity we can't take the same extreme measures in the UK!
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:58:47 (BST)

You bastard Steve!! That's *another* song I'm going to be singing for the rest of the week (much to the concern of my Japanese travelling companions on crowded subway trains). As for Wreckless, he featured prominently on the 4 disc Stiff collection which I shelled out for a few months back. Eric Goulden (aka 'The artist formerly known as Wreckless Eric' - tee hee) has an amusing site at http://www.bigsmash.demon.co.uk/ - he is also on my old copy of 'Live Stiffs', mouldering away along with my copy of the 'Kilburn & The High Roads' EP, 'Stupidity', 'Malpractice', the first Undertones album, the first Talking Heads single, 'Stranded' by The Saints, 'Shot By Both Sides' (Howard DeVoto), and many others which strangely seem to exist as neural MP3s somewhere in my head....
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:39:50 (BST)

Alberr, try http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/
Carsten
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:33:49 (BST)

Bill mentioned in an interview with Joe Klien in todays Guardian [ first few paragraphs are about W. Gutrie & the MA project ] http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4051283,00.html ..... 'Judgments on the great figures of the day fall blithely from the lips of Joe Klein, without question the most widely-read political writer in the world: Clinton, Blair, Gore, Bush, Billy Bragg. ' .... pretty seedy company bill's keeping these days it seems.
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:25:36 (BST)

The lunatic hairstyle one from the Kursaal flyers is a journo now at Q mag I believe..she knows that I know that she knows that I know that she knows Im in love with her
steve
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:16:43 (BST)

Bogues,what about Wreckless Eric - The Whole Wide world...I have that Dr Feelgood gig recorded in southend on video ,its also available from their web site..also another video of them with Lee Brilleaux playing slide guitar recorded in Cheltenham, great stuff..had many a "Saturday night under the plastic palm trees" a ref to the locarno ballrooms(mecca in sunderland)
Steve <sir keith joseph smiles and a baby dies in a box on>
Beasley Street, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:13:42 (BST)

Its possible I miscopied the Tom Leher, web site. A search will find it. Its there. The History of Native Americans/African Americans is interwed . In the South, Native Americans were often enlisted to capture escaped slaves. After the Civil War, African Americans became the "Buffalo Soldiers" who faught Native Americans. Now we have Wyona LaDuke, Ralph Nader's running mate, Lakota Tribe and Harvard educated economist. Unlike Debuya (Bush jr.) she got accepted by her own merits and not her family's contribution to the library. www.votenader.com, there are transcripts of her speeches.
James <Rude Boy Train in Comming Down! Rude Boy Train is Comming Down!>
New Paltz, NY - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:09:43 (BST)

Too late - found it myself! It was the Leighton Buzzards (Quiz for any non-English reader - why is that such a great name for a band?). Apparently No. 36 in NME's top singles list for 1979, and 1979 was quite a good year. Is there anything you *can't* find on the Net???
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 12:36:46 (BST)

Steve - Continuing the obsession, I just checked out the Feelgoods albums on sale at Amazon UK (they all seem great value at around 8 quid a pop) and found that the track listing for Stupidity ends with "Riot" and "Johnny", so they presumably were originally on the 7 inch. The cover picture brought on more massive floods of nostalgia - I had forgotten Wilko's great slack-jawed face as he skeetered across the stage, especially during the guitar break in "She Does it Right": waaaaah!! I also got reminded that half the album was recorded in Southend, probably at the Kursaal if memory serves me right. Used to go to the funfair there as a kid when my cousins lived down the road in Rochford. I betcha Bill did too. What became of the Kursaal Flyers? And a totally unrelated nostalgia trip - do you recall a song "Saturday Night Beneath the Plastic Palm Trees"? Who *was* that???
Boguespierre
Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 12:12:24 (BST)

Nevski, thanks for posting more details about Billy's setlist at Sidmouth. I'm especially pleased to hear that he sang, 'Black Wind Blowing'. I really feel that it's a song that shows just what a fantastic voice he has. I hope he keeps it in his set for the forthcoming tour. Robin, that was the typo of all typo's. How could you mistake Santa's Little Helper with Satan's ? Cheers,
Theo
London, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 11:37:03 (BST)

James can't log on to www.org/~drz/tom.leher - Is the URL correct?
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 09:40:47 (BST)

finally before i go to work this monday morning, the overuse of the word 'really' at 7:59 was possibly freudian but not intentional. It is just a word i overuse.
sonj <normal service can now resume>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:43:17 (BST)

the journals were of course L&C's
sonj 
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:30:18 (BST)

bogues, the image of neil in the young ones will help me smile next time. If that leads me on to think about 'bottom' i will have to sqirm behind the sofa and peek through my fingers. it is just tooooooo much!
sonj <must move all that junk out from behind the sofa before carol gets here ...>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:22:22 (BST)

oops, sadie may well be sassie but it isn't what i meant.
sonj <washing machine finally installed on victorian floor with 18 degree gradient thanks to alberr, a piece of wood and resolute revolt against the strict instructions of the manual>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:03:08 (BST)

I apologise for my over reaction last night. As Bogues said: luther is luther and you have to take the rough with the smooth. Pam's post in isolation was excellent. linked with Luther's 'really?' it just got right up my nose. The whole subject of American Indians is fascinating. Alberr is currently reading the journal's of Lewis and Clark which has a really excellent account of the Dog Feast. In respect of the menu, no different really to the Thanksgiving Turkey.
sonja p <sasie, you didn't say you had quinns when you were in the big brother house>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 07:59:41 (BST)

Bogues, because you are 1) anal and 2) a sick bastard.....(everyone needs a shot of R & B so come on down to my surgery..8 bars on the piano,(no piano)come on baby wont do you no harm, just want to shoot some rock n roll in your arm, Down to the Doctors...I got a bit excited as I thought you were starting a Dr Felgood quiz
Steve <thickgeordiebastard@blackpuddinginthesun>
every kind of vice its just merchandise, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 07:03:30 (BST)

I often get uncomfortable when people use the words communist or socialist, especially when many I have known they are land and property owners, invest money, pay taxes for the state, even pay wages...shoot me down please, but doom and gloom socialists are like doom and gloom the end is nigh - born again cretin jehovah burglars...create fear in the congregation and they buy it...socialism!!! it may be easy for individuals to demonstrate actions of socialism within capitalism, but who on here has 1) ever lived in a socalist state they enjoyed and where it offered all the benefits in question 2..2) can offer a honest and utopian example of common ownership that has brought wealth and health to its people..3)what type of socialism are we talking about here, socialism of the heart(and all the interpretations that brings)??..or working people owning the machinery that creates the wealth......are we not discontent active capitalists wishing for more?..does a fucked up capitalism constitute the need for a revolution, the majority of the population obviously think not...I dont see many communists/socialists down my neck of the woods or Sunderlain planning the revoluton in coffee clubs ..I, as George Orwell said want it sooner than later, but I don't think it's gonna happen.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
until youve had a peterlee pie you have never lived, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 06:50:51 (BST)

It wasn't a quiz, Steve, I really couldn't remember! However, now that you mention it I'm very certain that Johnny B Goode was on there - but why do the words of "I'm a hog for you baby" irresistibly come to mind? Maybe they were both on there? By the way, I've been uncontrollably muttering "I woke up on the floor, I asked you for some breakfast. You shoved me out the door, I jumped onto the late bus. I nearly missed (ba-boom) the early shift (ba-boom), dreaming in the morning of the things we did - back in the night..." for the past 12 hours. How do lyrics I haven't thought of in years lurk so complete in the back of my mind??
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 06:46:24 (BST)

-u
s
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 04:33:55 (BST)

on a more serious note, BOUGUES, was it Johhnny B Goode or Im a hog for ya Baby??..(I told you once, I told you twice, I even tried to tell you nice) who sang that?
Steve
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 04:33:29 (BST)

welcome to animal farm folks.....did someone mention Marcus Garvey? well don't otherwise I will have to mention the greatest dub reggae album of all time which was Burning Spear's Garvey's ghost in dub..so there..and I have nothing further to say as I am shallow vacuous but happy...oh yes, one thing, the world is always a better place to be, optimism is healthy, negativity comes cheap...Brian 'Nash the Slash'hehehehe brilliant
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
herbal tea bohemian revolutionery party, hic! - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 04:29:46 (BST)

There's a fantastic article about Native American tribes resisting taking on "the honor" of storing US nuclear waste in this great book Beyond Identity Politcs: Emerging Social Justice Movements in Communites of Color by John Anner see http://www.zmag.org/sep/beyondid.htm The book also includes a story of the victory of the Jessica McClintock sweatshop workers in S.F. and many other inspiring success stories.
Susan
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:45:42 (BST)

Bogues, re: Billy's stand on issues. Over the years, every time I've seen him I've been impressed with Bill's knowledge of current events--and non-events and his enlightening and hilarious commentary. During the whole OJ ridiculousness he talked about a case that Really deserved media attention--Mumia Abu-Jamal and there was an info. table at the show. Also I learned about the dockers strike that Luther was talking about at a B.B. show--Bill had us applaud the S.F. dockers for their solidarity and there was an info. table at that show too. He makes it so clear what a bunch of crap and smoke and mirrors we call "news" in this country. Really important for us USers to get a more objective view. Last time I saw him he pumped people up to go to Seattle to protest the WTO-- I know his prodding had a lot to do with me making the trip. After the show (his first in Santa Cruz-- PLEASE come back Bill--remember how much you liked our record shops!!!!) a group of us was chatting with him and he really regretted not mentioning the KPFA (Berkeley public radio) struggle--seemed almost embarrassed about it.
Susan
Santa Cruz, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:25:19 (BST)

What has happened in California regarding Casinos is interesting. It has created a haves versus have-nots situation. In order to partake of the new wealth, Indians have to be registered with a tribe. Many Indians are not registered, for various reasons--their parents left the reservation for economic reasons, or they were removed to go to schools. Now these unregistered Indians want some of the wealth. They say they are poor, they belong to a certain tribe, and they have rights. The registered Indians don't want to accept them. My take is, this is the Indians business and they need to settle it themselves without white people coming in and taking sides. However, my opinion isn't firm, and I would be interested in hearing others'opinions.
carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:19:41 (BST)

To get back to a part of the recent topic, I would be interested to hear Pam and Luther's take on the impact of gambling in the sovereign nations (if that's the correct term). It has had a huge impact upon the Pequots of Connecticut near where my wife is from (the infamous Foxwoods casino), and much of it to their material good. But, for want of a better analysis, it doesn't "taste" good, does it? And what about the tribe whose leaders are offering to take high level nuclear waste? (Is that Utah? I can't recall...). Just what *is* the best way to compensate Native Americans for past (and present) injustices? Maybe you can point me to a good Web resource - I would be interested in knowing more.
Boguespierre
Yokohama, Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:11:36 (BST)

Which we should take at face value - thank you Luther for the clarification (I hate that I couldn't stick to my own rule of always assuming the best of intentions in any posting...). And thanks to Carol for bringing up a topic clearly worthy of discussion (incidentally, I see that that poll in the Chicago Tribune is standing at 95% pro reparations, for what it's worth).
Boguespierre
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:03:49 (BST)

Do you see the double standard I was talking about, Theo?
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:58:04 (BST)

Once again, for the record: All I did in my post at 21:09:02 was question Carol's assertion. That's all. Nothing else. I didn't say anything mean about Carol. I didn't say anything derisory. I simply questioned her assertion in a civil manner. Really.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:57:17 (BST)

I should point out that I still tend to agree with Sonja's belief that Luther's remark was meant derisively. It certainly *read* derisively. But Luther is what Luther is, and we need him here, so best not to fan the flames of antipathy. And I think Sonj has gone night-night...
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:51:36 (BST)

Are there any other apologies forthcoming? Sonja?
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:38:45 (BST)

My apologies to Luther if I read more into his questioning of Carol than was there. But one does tend to build up a picture of the character behind the bare text of the Guestbook, which rathers colours it. In the case of Luther saying "Really?" to Carol I can't help but get an image of Rik from the Young Ones with hands on hips berating Neil. Probably just a reflection of my own deep-rooted psychoses...
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:31:38 (BST)

Regarding Jeff's somewhat rhetorical point below "What this has to do with Billy Bragg I have NO idea..." - which US political issues HAS BB taken a stance on in the past? I can't think of anything in his music (possible exceptions: 'Help Save the Youth of America' & 'I Dreamed I saw Phil Ochs Last Night'), but I have seen frequent references here to his support of US workers' rights. Can anyone educate me?
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:23:20 (BST)

Many of the American Indians in Oklahoma were Cherokee. They were originally from Georgia (I think) and were forced off their land and driven to Oklahoma. Many of them died along the way. This is the legendary Trail of Tears. The Cherokee owned African slaves. Nothing is simple in history. Many American Indians and African Americans suffer economic and racial injustices to this day.
carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:58:36 (BST)

Jeff's last posting reminded me of some interesting passages in the Joe Klein biography of Woody Guthrie about Native Americans in the area Woody grew up. I think I recall that it mentioned that some of these actually owned black slaves (presumably during the first half of the 19th Century), though I don't claim that as fact until I get a chance to reread the book. I suppose we might also find cases of African-Americans oppressing Native Americans, though I can't think offhand where that might have happened. Not to try and negate any points made below, but once again nothing is simple...
Boguespierre
Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:38:25 (BST)

Just got done watching "Children of the Revolution"--any idea from where to obtain the soundtrack?
Marc <marc@mcn.net>
Bozeman, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:34:16 (BST)

Five kids in one day?? Quins...?
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:29:17 (BST)

Pam and Luther, please don't stop contributing, I'm getting a real education here. Also, Sonj, please keep us up to date about your defunct appliances, its very reassuring to know ones not alone.
Sadie <washing machine, tumble dryer, microwave plus five kids in one day.>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:13:27 (BST)

Carol, that Federal refusal to pass anti-lynching laws is exactly the kind of public policy decsion I am talking about. As for the indians, Im not so sure about wether this policy was "genocidal". I know in Ohio, during the Indian wars of the 1790s (the US sufferred two big defeats in that one), and the later one during 1812, the US approached the indians as if they where sovereign powers, signing treatys and establishing treaty boundarys over which white settlement was not to cross. But then there was the case of the Cherokees; the Supreme Court ruled their removal illegal, but Andy Jackson removed 'em anyway. I think reparations would be due in that case. Also policies like sticking indian kids in boarding schools to make them "white" and the tribal termination policy where a form of cultural genocide.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:53:08 (BST)

Luther and I had no idea we were writing these posts at the same, nor did we even talk about what had been posted. In case anyone wondered. No wonder we get accused of being each other.
Pam
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:49:19 (BST)

*sigh* Who did I confront? Who did I attack? Criminy people why do you read everything damn thing I say (or Luther for that matter) in the worst possible light? Now try reading what I said again with a matter-of fact, explanatory, non-accusatory tone and see how it changes. I give up. There is no pleasing you guys. I've had it. I told Luther the other day that I was going to have to quit participating on the GB because it was too judgmental but decided to try once more being more careful of my wording. This place isn't worth the aggravation of having to defend everything I say because you think I am being argumentative. Fuck this. Is that argumentative enough for you?
Pam
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:41:38 (BST)

You know folks, this is yet another example of "We hate Luther, and so we read everything his writes in the worst possible light. We refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt." All I did in my post at 21:09:02 was question Carol's assertion. That's all. Nothing else. I didn't say anything mean about Carol. I didn't say anything derisory. I simply questioned her assertion in a civil manner. And y'all immediately jumped on me. Fuck the lot of you. Seriously. Fuck you.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:38:31 (BST)

Jeff--for one thing, the US Congress refused to pass laws against lynching. Purely for political reasons. Also, the mobs were often led by off-duty sherrifs, and police departments looked the other way and did not enforce the laws that were obviously being broken. Of course, the genocide of Native American tribes was US policy, whether openly stated or not. It wouldn't kill the US to give reparations. It seems only just. And it would actually set a precedent--perhaps the public wouldn't condone stuff like police beatings, etc.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:13:58 (BST)

Bogues: I am sure there are!
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:12:22 (BST)

sonj: will have to explain Bernie Grants stance on this to me one day - I am (genuinely) naive of his opinions
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:10:20 (BST)

Brian - I am sure there are Native Americans who would be interested in discussing repatriation of whites to Europe...
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:07:21 (BST)

...and before anyone gets the wrong idea - I was just making a comment and not condoning any of these beliefs
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:03:31 (BST)

sorry - did confuse/mis-read reparation with Re-patriation - my mistake
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:00:26 (BST)

OK Awready lets get beyond the personal "you forgot the Indians! No I didnt!" stuff...it sounds like the worst sort of PC arguement. My two cents on this is that I used to think this reperations concept was nuts. But, thinking about it, a precedent has been set with the Japanese itnernees. So some form of reparations is worth considering. I do think we need to get beyond things like southern lynchings and California "indian hunts"; deplorable as these where these where the actions of individuals and mobs, possibly with some low level government collusion. If we are talking about the Federal Government making reparations we need to look at what public policy was towards the groups in question and the consequences of that policy. Thats what reparations should be about. What this has to do with Billy Bragg I have NO idea....
Jeff <dwellejt@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:59:55 (BST)

(With heavy heart...) Luther - your attitude towards Carol is incivil and disappointing to me. She had raised an excellent topic for debate, to which both Pam and yourself had important contributions to make, but you chose to cheapen it with petty (and, for once, incorrect) point-making. I have gritted my teeth and avoided this kind of posting until now because I know they can just fan flames further, but you really must reconsider your behaviour. As much as anything, your rudeness devalues the excellence of the depth of knowledge you bring to this forum.
Boguespierre
Japan - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:42:20 (BST)

Bogues, your knowlege of US history is pretty good. BTW, the most famous US "Back to Africa" movement was Marcus Garveys', back in the 1920s. It is sometimes considered the precursor of the "black pride" or "black power" culural movement of the late 1960s.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:41:33 (BST)

Brian (20:25) - were you misreading 'reparation' as 'repatriation'? I think even the right wing crazies like the NF only considered this for immigrants to the UK who had been there for less than a generation. Much of the ethnic community in the UK is now already far too settled (if not integrated) to make repatriation practical at any price. African-Americans even more so, since all have been in the Americas for many generations. There was the back-colonization of Liberia in the last century, but that would hardly attract anyone to "return" to Africa. I recall that there *were* members of the African-American community as recently as the 1970s (maybe later) espousing a return to Africa, but this has certainly never entered the mainstream.
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:31:05 (BST)

I have heard Brother Jahara speak about reparations and he specifically mentioned reparations for American Indians. However, when I visited the web site of the organization that he belongs to, I couldn't find a statement to this effect. If anyone is interested, here is the web address: http://www.ncobra.com
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:17:52 (BST)

I agree with what both Pam and Luther are saying and I can't for the of me see what their point against me is. Taking one statement without considering the whole context of the discussion is an unfair way to talk to people and only makes them angry and defensive. Pam, you should know better. In fact, I think comparing the terrorism against both American Indians and African Americans is interesting, because lynch mobs terrorized Black people in the South mainly but not entirely, and lynch mobs terrorized American Indians in the West, mainly but not entirely. Therefore, we can see that this kind of terror is widespread across the US and the South cannot just be blamed. The current movement for reparations, by the way, includes American Indians as well as African Americans.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:01:41 (BST)

Brian, Bernie Grant had some ideas on the subject too :)
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:56:46 (BST)

It is such a shame, when you and Luther both have a lot of knowledge to impart about all the ethnic groups in america, that instead of just developing the subject Luther's contribution to the discussion was a derisive remark, directed at carol, implying that she had not considered the position of the american indians. This clearly wasn't true. Why are you so confrontational???
sonj <pissed off>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:52:22 (BST)

I believe the statement at issue though, was "but African Americans have had to endure the kind of terrorism that no other US ethnic minority has had to endure" and not whether both deserved reparations. It is true that many Americans think of slavery as the worst injustice ever committed by this country, forgetting about the stealing of land and culture, introduction of lethal diseases, and forcing of Native Americans to accept the reservation system which has kept them in poverty for so many generations. I don't romanticize the American Indian way of life or believe in the concept of the "Noble Savage," but I do believe that they are too often ignored when one looks at history and how the government has treated them. While most often we think of such cases as the massacre at Wounded Knee and the occupation of the Pine Ridge Oglala Sioux Reservation which ultimately resulted in the arrest of Leonard Peltier, there are thousands of other examples in which the government refused to recognize the Native American's right to self-governance. Even now the government continues to refuse to allow tribes to use their land as they see fit and interferes with tribal laws. If I had time I could go on and on about this. Before Selma Walker, founder of the Native American Indian Center here and elder among the Oglala Sioux, died a few years ago, she taught me much about the problems her tribe faces not only on the reservation but also off it as individuals and families try to live apart from their extended families and cultures. It's truly heart breaking. The historical treatment of Native Americans, including the systematic wiping out of complete tribes, is certainly as bad as or worse than the treatment of slaves.
Pam
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:37:24 (BST)

Carol did indeed mention American Indians in a couple of her earlier statements Luther.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:35:33 (BST)

Luther--I stated that American Indians and African Americans BOTH deserved reparations. Are you reading carefully? You may add American Indians to my statement. Instead of trying to put me down, you should state that you think American Indians endured horrible terrorism, too. I would agree.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:29:44 (BST)

Carol asserted: "African Americans have had to endure the kind of terrorism that no other US ethnic minority has had to endure." Really? Shall we examine the treatment of American Indians?
Luther Gaylord
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:09:02 (BST)

as a point of interest: re-patriation (even voluntary with finacial re-numeration) in UK has different connetations as this is mostly championed by white far-right polital parties (BNP, NF, etc) as a way of "sending them back" - I know this has little or no relation to the USA situation but I just thought I would bring it up
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:25:21 (BST)

Not to make this a two way conversation between me and Jeff, but African Americans have had to endure the kind of terrorism that no other US ethnic minority has had to endure--brutal lynchings up through the 1950's in the South, where mobs would not only go after men and women, but also children. There is no way the US as a whole can buy their way out of the guilt that white Americans and the US government share. But recompense will help. I know this sounds very much like wishy washy liberal guilt. But I don't feel guilty because the US criminal justice system is racist--I have done things to stop this. The past is horrible, and I have benefited from it in an historical way.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:24:24 (BST)

Wow, after linking to that Trib site I see its Bobby Rush who is proposing this. Bobby Rush was one of the few surviving Chicago Black Panthers and is now in Congress. But Carol is right. The Union had an opportunity for land reform in the South ("40 acres and a mule") and blew it, leaving a form of debt peonage ("sharecropping") instead, and then topping it off by permitting Jim Crow laws as well as various forms of disenfranchisement. I think there are some good arguements for reparations from the era AFTER slavery, too, but I doubt you'll ever see it.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:15:31 (BST)

I think if we are going to pay reparations to blacks I think this also needs to involve a porportional contribution from Great Britain (slave trade prior to the Revolution), Spain and France (slave trade to Louisiana and Puerto Rico). This is really an international issue.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:04:01 (BST)

I think the interesting question is how one would calculate the amount of reparations due.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:01:25 (BST)

I know some African Americans who are very radical and actually want parts of the south. Others would be happy with some kind of monetary payment. Japanese have been given reparations for being put in concentration camps in World War II and having their property confiscated. So it is not unprecedented. Most African Americans I know do not want to go live in the South; they quite like living in the Northern part of the country. It is all complicated. The site I mentioned just asks if reparations should be paid--not how they should be paid. A movement begins when the public puts pressure on legislatures to do something. Then the debate really begins. I personally feel that the US is guilty of horrible crimes against Africans and American Indians, and that recompense of some sort is in order. I have ancestors who were white slaves, but because of the color of their skin they were able to buy their way out of indenture and to blend with the free community. It was much more horrible for American Indians and American Blacks.
Carol
San Franicsco, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 19:12:09 (BST)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sept 29 Portland: Aladdin, 30 Seattle: Moore,Oct 1 Vancouver: Vogue,3 SF: Filmore, 4 LA: Ford, 6 Minneapolis: First Avenue, 7 Chicago: Park West, 8 Toronto: Music Hall, 10 Somerville: Somerville Theatre, 11,12 NYC: Irving Plaza, 14 Towson,MD.: Recher Theatre, 15 Washington D.C.: 9:30 Club, 16 Philadelphia: Theatre of the Living Arts. Subject to Change. . - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 13:39:30 (BST)
lazz
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 18:38:47 (BST)

James - it's never black and white, is it? Although I can't agree with all he says, Norman Finkelstein has been raising some very valid points about the "Holocaust industry". Did you know Lawrence Eagleburger pulls down $300k a year chairing a commission on Holocaust claims? Now find a camp survivor who has received even a fraction of that sum in total. There is sadly a great risk that the pursuit of reparations to the African American community could end up going down the same road, like the pursuit of Big Tobacco - noses in the trough for politicians and lawyers. But I think the existence of the debate has to be a healthy thing.
Boguespierre <Time for bed in this time zone>
Yokohama, Japan - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:25:08 (BST)

For anyone interested in Bill Hicks I recommend that you check out the following links; http://www.paxacidus.com/otb/bill_hicks.html http://www.crg.cs.nott.ac.uk/~imt/bh/hicks.html http://www.billhicks.com/darktimes/ ... See ya!
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:16:57 (BST)

The issue of reparations for damages to African Americans is a very complicated one. There is a simialar movement to get compensation for Jewish slave laborers during during the Secong World War. The Jewsish Community is divided in that many feel that you can never place a monetary amount on the suffering many had to endure. Plus, once reparations are paid, the other side can now say "its over, we can forget it ever happened" Many don't ever want to let the other side forget what they did and constantly remind the world, it can happen again.
James
New Paltz, NY, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:14:52 (BST)

Carol - worthwhile I agree. I certainly don't mean to unduly disparage anyone here (including myself) for our incomplete ideological purity. And it's always a pleasure to see a real political issue raised...
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:11:16 (BST)

African Americans in the US are trying to get reparations for being kidnapped, brutalized and enslaved. Although slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule at the end of the Civil War, few received anything. The Chicago Tribune has an opinion poll where you can vote on whether they deserve reparations or not. Here is the address: www.chicagotribune.com/go/reparations. I know this is a a very wishy wasy socialist action, but an African American friend asked me to vote. Sometimes wishy washy is better than nothing.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Franfcisco, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:04:26 (BST)

When will BB next bee on BBgb,anyone?
Ronnie ov Brum
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 16:59:50 (BST)

I agree completely
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 16:07:38 (BST)

Richie (to get back to the question...) - I think you know yourself that if you strongly feel a need to "defend your country" at a time of no particular imminent threat then you're going to have a hard time justifying the label "hardline socialist". But you won't necessarily be alone! There aren't many on this list who would claim that title, fewer still who can justify it against detailed scrutiny. In reality we're all wishy-washy socialists, with varying degrees of wishy and washy. Personally, I'm happy with that - a hard line in anything to me reflects an inability to reason. I would suggest you set aside both the patriotic and the political labelling and decide whether your career decision and its implications (in particular, implicit support for any and all actions by British armed forces) is consistent with your personal beliefs. But don't kill yourself agonising that joining up automatically makes you a baby killer - and take some comfort from the fact that about 20 years ago HM Forces (briefly) had one S.W.Bragg taking the Queen's shilling....
Boguespierre
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:56:49 (BST)

bye bye John!
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:36:18 (BST)

...anyway... what sort of questions that?
Brian
London, Uk - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:34:31 (BST)

Are you saying i am being impolite?
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:33:06 (BST)

A polite one - try it one day!
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:31:19 (BST)

What sort of an answer is that Brian?
John
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:26:17 (BST)

anyway John - where you from? you a fellow Londoner?
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:22:30 (BST)

what do you think?
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:20:04 (BST)

.. or... by Enemies of the State... we mean patients in Serbian hospitals or Iraqi children
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:17:58 (BST)

touche
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:17:57 (BST)

Enemies of the State?? The Will Smith film maybe crap but its hardly gonna overthrow the government
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:11:18 (BST)

Brian.Defend from who? Enemies of the state spring to mind.
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:07:05 (BST)

...also... defend from who?
Brian <a cog in the machine>
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:02:54 (BST)

Richie: I think you know what it is that you really want to do
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:00:52 (BST)

sonj: you have made my day - sitting here at work, bored, have a look at the BBgb "I thought you said "I should be Peters and Lee'" - is this a new type of rhyming slang - Peters and Lee = Tree - I think its great that rubbish 70's groups are used as terms of abuse - you bunch of New Seekers :)
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:51:57 (BST)

Richie, what do you think you should do?
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:40:43 (BST)

No need to elaborate then!
jonboy
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:36:00 (BST)

is there any 'unofficial' rumor that Billy will be in the States this fall? We're already halfway through August. His tour lists up to August 10th. Any news would be appreciated!
mark
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:35:24 (BST)

can anyone help me please cause im really conffused.i have just sighned up for the royal air force and think that it is my duty to serve my country.the real problem is this.i really believe in the words of billy bragg and i cosider myself to be a hard line socialsit.is it wrong to want to join the armed services and defend your country if you think its right and also does this mean that im not as socialist as i believe i am???please if anyone can help me i would be really greatful.
richie <dicki1978@yahoo.com>
london, uk - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:35:10 (BST)

Would you care to elaborate?
jonboy
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:32:34 (BST)

sorry i misread that, i thought you said i should be peters and lee. Only one guinness too..
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:31:26 (BST)

that doesn't sound very polite jonboy
sonj <ok, tell me what else i could be doing with my life at half past two on a mugy sunday>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:29:50 (BST)

sonj.i think they'd be good on "stars in there eyes"as Peters and Lee"
jonboy
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:23:04 (BST)

brian you were tooo easy on yourself!
not me again <or not 'her' again if you're luther>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:10:50 (BST)

Billy and Boris on HIGNFY could be excellent! Or even on 'never mind the buzzcocks'.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:07:11 (BST)

I think Boris was being facetious. As I said, he wasn’t at his best. Tory AH that he is, he can be very witty.
sonj <still here, having first guinness of the day. >
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:03:43 (BST)

i think you are half right but you dont really know what it is you want to say.i think boris johson said whaty he saw ,which he would if h'ed never been there before.what he said was only bein honest.
paulette-jo
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 13:55:20 (BST)

jonboy: I saw the Bill and Boris show. Bill was being, as he asks us to be on here, polite to Boris who was not at his best, or exactly making a point, just carrying on about the amount of money involved in running glastonbury which was supposed to prove it was a capitalist venture. From the responses Bill makes on here, and from my experiences of meeting him, Bill never avoids responding to a 'difficult' question.
sonj <if i can get alberr's nose out of the book we ARE going out ..>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 13:01:08 (BST)

I have got to learn to type one day - that last message was for Jon and it should have said "not entirely fair"
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:53:46 (BST)

while I, on the whole, agree with you that it is all to easy to just discuss things with people who agree with you instead of including people who may have complete opposite opinions. I think the two examples given were entirely fair - the two shows were primarily entertainment shows and in the Glasto example a 5 minute light-hearted piece about clashing worlds and cultures. You do have a valid point that if someone has an opinion that we find unexeptable we tend to just dismiss them as ignorant (and both side of political ideology does it) and in the end this breeds contempt and even violence
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:52:09 (BST)

What got up nose was when BB took Boris Johnson to Glast this year.At the end of the TV bit Johnson said it was a victory for capitalism or words to that effect,BB tried to laugh it off and made a couple of snides then it finished.It seemed to me that he had, if not a point then a point worth listening to.I then saw Johnson on Mark Lammars' show on thurs when he made a valid point about the racist overtones of the european commmunity in relation to being 'white psuedo christian' i.e. exclusion of eastern europeans.Lammar, seeing he had a valid point, made a joke much in the same way BB did at Glast.My point is i know Boris J is a tory A.H. but if he(or anyone else) makes one or two decent points worth talking about for the good of the whole why not say so?Ifade.
jonboy_31
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:41:49 (BST)

i just asked alberr what his new book was about, He pointed to an illustration of a north american indian 'dog eating party'. He swears he hasn't been looking at the BBgb today. Spooky ...
sonj <addicts of the world unite>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:38:03 (BST)

that's ok jonboy, stay around and keep asking.
sonj 
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:00:19 (BST)

Steve, you appear to have a good gasp of it already. My own theory is that America's two biggest problems are Racism and Objectivity and they prevent the country from becomng progressive. Anyhow, you can look at this site, www.commondreams.org if you want to really see whats goiong on in the US.
James <Dothey still say "Wog"in the UK>
New Paltz, NY, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:57:19 (BST)

Sonj,thank you for enlightening me or i see your point.The way in which i worded my question now seems inflammatory which it was'nt really meant to be.Anyway to me BB is all about asking.
jonboy_31
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:51:56 (BST)

so... I went onto Napster yesterday - oh my god - I was like child in a sweet shop - was able to track down a Nash The Slash 12" b-side that a friend of my brother had and that I have no heard in 20 years
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:36:57 (BST)

steve, did i send you 'ballad of john axon'? how is your cataloguing going?
sonj <sid deserves the stepdaughter from hell>
ambridge, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:26:42 (BST)

Bogues, was it Johnny B Goode or Im a Hog For Ya Baby I can't get enough of your love....dont start me
Steve
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:23:04 (BST)

hi John - welcome to the BBgb
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:19:21 (BST)

I see what this is now , im not very good with compters.(soz)anyroad iread that thing about bb and socialistsor he's alrite.i remeber when he started his 2.99 or less thing.it wasok but i was only on 15 a week so i waited till 1988 tobuy brewwing up second h.for aquid.ah saturday boy.
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:15:46 (BST)

Hi all
Brian
London, Uk - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:59:34 (BST)

Good Morning John. It's about whatever you want s'longas your (reasonably )polite to the other posters.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:59:08 (BST)

whats this thing all about ? good morning to u if your reading this message anyroad.
john
Eng. - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:46:49 (BST)

Steve - my copy of 'Stupidity' is mouldering away along with all the rest of my vinyl in a cardboard box somewhere in England, but I still have a tape of it I made for the car (somewhere...). I recall that there was a free 7" with the album with a live 'Riot in Cellblock Number Nine' - what was the other side?
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:25:12 (BST)

http://www.drfeelgood.de/...if you have a sense of humour visit the feelgoods web site.Bogues stupidity is out on cd Dr Feelgood own all their own back catalogue and have aquired Stupidity from EMI(I think)...they own and release all the albums on Grand records in 107a High Street Canvey Island, Essex.QUIZ what was unique, and still is, about Dr Feelgoods 'Stupidity' getting to No 1
Steve <getalife@FEELGOODFAN>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:10:24 (BST)

Being an avid collector of anything feelgood....is anybody in the mood for a top five Dr Feelgood song list.....no oh ok then..(:(...... 1) Back in the Night.. 2) Baby Jane.. 3) I want to make violent Love to you.. 4) She does it right.. 5) Milk & Alcohol.. bubbling under..Down by the Jetty Blues...if anyone drastically needs any feelgood tapes, Im happy to send them if don't mind waitng as Im hopelessly disorganised..best Dr feelgood gig,,,the Blues Celler Club in Newcastle On Tyne..jumpin
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:58:18 (BST)

It has always been my ambition to own a white suit like Lee Brilleaux had on the 1975 tour - I think there were things living on it. Listening to 'Stupidity' makes me 17 again (alarming thought).
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:57:16 (BST)

Bogues, Dr Feegood with or without Wilco were/are fabulous...Saw them at the beginning 75,76,77,81,85,89,94,97..with all the stage diving(before Kurt Cobain was even born), last gig I saw in uk was the feelgoods at Kendall arts centre in the lakes for their 25th anniversary, I got a postcard from the memorial hospital from Lee Brilleaux just before he died, a great great man...good memories
Steve <She's a windup@roxette>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:48:55 (BST)

Wood Stain? Work Sheet?? Wind Storm???
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:42:34 (BST)

bogues.. Ahhh, sniff ...every cloud has a silver lining and now there you are nattering away in Japanese.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:40:28 (BST)

oops that should be W*** S****
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:37:36 (BST)

James, i think my favourite insult comes from the same community, including Brixton. W*** S*** doesn't of course apply to anybody on here, not even Luther unless he is very very horrible.
sonj <time to make alberr's breakfast, little hausfrau that i am>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:36:12 (BST)

Well hello again from a Japan that can primarily be characterised as rainy, as Typhoon No 9 of the season sluggishly tracks up the Pacific coast. The forecast is for 4 inches of rain is this vicinity during the next 24 hours which is quite enough, thank you, but pales against the 12 inches PER HOUR that you get when hit full on. Sorry to be egocentric once again, but there's a nice section of Billy-chat in the concert from 1985 that I put online (presumably from just before 'St Swithin's Day', but I may be wrong) which goes "Until yesterday, the one thing I missed about England was the rain. Not anymore. Yesterday I got soaking wet. Right down to my Hush Puppies". Well exactly 15 years later nothing has changed. Another anecdote - when I saw Billy the following year in Tokyo, me and a friend got chatting with him after the gig, and he kindly invited us to a post-gig party due to take place after Wilco Johnson played in Tokyo a few days later. That gig too was marvellous (I'm sure there must be some Feelgood fans out there who remember Wilco's onstage 'spastic duck walk' routine, which he continued on to his Solid Senders days), but my woefully inadequate Japanese failed to persuade the girl on the backstage door to let us through to our promised sojourn with the stars. I think that was when I vowed (a la Scarlett O'Hara) to "never be tongue-tied again" and really got working on my Japanese. Sadly, by the time Billy returned to Japan in 1989 I was back in Blighty, and to the best of my knowledge he's never been back since... D'you think that's a sad enough story to get an invite for a cheese sandwich after the Boston gig in October?
Boguespierre <Soaking wet, right through to my Topsiders>
Yokohama, Japan - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:31:37 (BST)

Lisa and Les have made me next of kin to their infamous hound Mr Magoo. On that basis i suppose i don't suppose i can eat dog. I will not be answering the phone while they are on holiday in case it is the kennels demanding i remove the wayward beast before he eats his way out.
sonj 
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:30:04 (BST)

When i left Chi High i swore that no child of mine would ever have to go there. Lisa left there in about 1990 with two A's and a B. Maybe it is better now steve. I am sure you and hester will both do very well pete,
sonj 
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:25:38 (BST)

Bloody Hell PeteW, which school did you go to??..I went to school probably 15 miles from you, and the teachers I encountered were racist facist thugs not fit to be in charge of a Rocking Horse, let alone a human being, except for maybe three in 10 years..Havelock secondary Sunderland, burn the bastards down
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 07:30:52 (BST)

Yeah, we have great air here. All the nasty fumes just blow away to haunt some pour souls in the valley! Ah, life on the Monterey Bay...Pretty amazing that your daughter found a job here... We're overeducated and underemployed with housing costs going ever upward.(Bedroom community for "dot-communists"--and why that label is sticking is beyond me--they couldn't be further from communist!) Someone referred to my fair town recently as "Silicon Beach"--Ouch!
susan
Santa Cruz, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 05:45:55 (BST)

Pete: I wasn't suggesting anything about you. I was trying to say how my Asian friends in San Francisco would feel. I would never accuse you of racism. The dog story is interesting. I think the only animal I have refused to eat is a dolphin, because in my heart I have this thing about dolphins being human. I guess I would refuse to eat a human, too. I walked through Chinatown today, and I think I will become a vegetarian. The live animals flapping in their little boxes awaiting death is just too much for me. I won't become vegan though. Derik, when you come next week, be forewarned. Chinatown is fascinating, but it takes a strong stomach. And Susan from Santa Cruz, when my daughter moved there, she couldn't believe how clean it smelled. We are used to everything smelling like garbage here in North Beach/Chinatown where I live and where she lived until she got a job in Santa Cruz last year.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 04:49:53 (BST)

Kim, have you read Marguerite Duras? If you're interested in French female writers, I reckon she's one of the best.
Carsten
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:29:37 (BST)

I was taught "what did you learn in school today" by my mam when i was about 6 or 7. In my experience almost all teachers I've come across have been pretty left-wing, if not out-and-out marxists; the more distasteful views i have held at various points came instead from religious school assemblies, Scouting for Boys and, uh, Blue Peter....
pete w <apologiestotheamericanpeople>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:05:37 (BST)

James I wish I understood American Politics, send me to a site that explains it in apples and oranges
Steve
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:02:11 (BST)

Jonboy and Paulette-jo have a point, I cant deny people talk good socialism,few live it.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:00:50 (BST)

Yes, it was Simone Weil. Thank you, Carol. I kept coming up with Edith Stein, the Jewish convert to Catholicism who died in Auschwitz and has been canonized... Okay, the other Simone, de Beauvoir, Sartre's long-time companion, talked about her affair with Nelson Algren in "The Mandarins" but I was personally too bored with the novel to finish it. He was rather macho compared to the European intellectuals she was used to hanging around, and she clearly found it charmante. I find her feminist critiques of society to be much more engaging than her fiction.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:50:54 (BST)

Steve has a point and to make it worse, The Democrats are trying to out republilcan the republicans with a bigger convention and the Liberman nonsence What they should be doing is trying to unmask them.
Jmaes <Makes you wanna Ralph>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:39:42 (BST)

Bob, What's "remebering," you idiot!?
Bob
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:35:14 (BST)

and we whine about Tony Blair?
steve
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:34:00 (BST)

Jeff: Sorry, I was wrong. They were never married. I guess this is what I was remebering: "In them [her love letters]she calls herself his wife and wishes only to be in his arms." http://www.bbc.co.uk/works/s4/beauvoir/
Bob
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:33:03 (BST)

Please skip this if your not interested im not forcing anyone to read it..it just amuses me in a tragic way.... Can One Ignore The God Issue During This Campaign?.... Don Peterson forwarded me a spam about George Bush (below), highlighting what a poor record the State of Texas has in several crucial social areas. Though the spam leaves out some key information, reading it caused me to challenge my current view that arguing whether or not a god exists is a stupid reason to get into a fight. (My temptation is to carry this over into my politics.) Please read the following exchange and tell me whether it's even possible to set aside the religious rhetoric that dominates this election, and decide whether I can even support either candidate based solely upon their records in other issues?....The State of Texas, under the leadership of Governor George W. Bush, is ranked:.. 50th in spending for teachers' salaries... 49th in spending on the environment..... 48th in per-capita funding for public health... 47th in delivery of social services.... 42nd in child-support collections.... 41st in per-capita spending on public education... and ... 5th in percentage of population living in poverty... 1st in air and water pollution.. 1st in percentage of poor working parents without insurance.. 1st in percentage of children without health insurance.. 1st in executions (avg. 1 every 2 weeks for Bush's 5 years)... Just think of what he could do for the country if he were president....Before I get into it, a case can be made that such policies are completely in line with some views of Christianity...... (Former Interior Secretary James Watt and, to a lesser extent, former President RONALD REAGAN come to mind, openly suggesting that Jesus was on the brink of his long-awaited return to solve various problems, so we need not concern ourselves with them now.) And Bill Clinton ran on the poverty angle, claiming experience in grappling with these problems. Another point is that even though he is the Governor, he is still just one man and he's been there for only five years. Even for in Texas, it is quite an accomplishment for one man to do this much damage......... .. In Election 2000, we truly have a situation where, as Los Angeles Times Syndicate columnist Cal Thomas pointed out on August 11, 2000, the candidates appear to be saying: "My God Can Beat Your God."...whats going on in america??
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
land of nod, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:32:19 (BST)

A regular guy, heck, whats the english translation for this...a bloke? Well, maybe Algren wasn't so regular nor was he likley a "card carrying" socialist...more like that "socialism of heart" Billy Bragg sings about. No, I dont think he was actually married to Simone D B.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:25:56 (BST)

Pete W. That was not directed towards you. Robin and I posted from our experience in Brooklyn. The term may have a different meaning in the U.K. Words and phrases change in different location. Example: In Jamaica one of the worst insults you can call someone is a "Blood Clot" I doubt anyone who has any contact with the West Indian Community would be aware of that. (include Bly Street Toronto, East Flatbush Brooklyn and possibly Brixton London)
James
New Paltz, NY - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:13:56 (BST)

Carol, you mean teachers in the usa tell lies? :)I just listened to "What did you learn in school today" for the first time , and think it's a great song, very true as well, as alas there are too few socialists in the teaching profession. - Strange coincidence also: Both Simone Weil and Tom Lehrer (German for 'teacher', btw.) who got a mention here were both school teachers...
Carsten <g'night&Ifuckofftobed>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:13:06 (BST)

Jeff: Fling??? Weren't they married?
Bob
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:12:10 (BST)

What the hell Jeff is "a regular guy"? (Probably someone I wouldn't want to 'hang out with'...)
Carsten <waypastmybedtimenow,sonj,oichemhaith,goodnight!>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:00:05 (BST)

My god, talk about opening a can of worms... however the blame lies with me for my incoherent and unintelligible posting. In my experience the word "chinky" refers only to the restaurant/takeaway from which the tastiest chips originate, and *not* to the people who run it or even the ethnicity of the cuisine. As in, "I'm going down the chinky"... Then again, until the reaction here, I never realised that the whole alsatian-in-the-fridge tale could be used as a weapon of racism rather than an innocent urban myth (I have no qualms about eating dog btw, except my own dog who is pretty danm cute)...
pete w <resultsin5days>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:55:28 (BST)

Simone De Bo-vee-air (sorry) also had an fling with that great Chicago writer Nelson Algren (who was at one time a socialist but always a regular guy). More on Algren****http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/nalgren.htm
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:41:43 (BST)

This web site is a socialist community, off line, we correspond and willingly share our tapes, films information dreams for the collective good. the outside world is what it is and we do the best we can to influence or change it or at least not have it change us.
james
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:40:49 (BST)

having got that off my chest! ...paulette-jo, welcome to the BBgb. If you hang around you will see Bill does indeed come on here and answer questions himself. If you missed the last session scroll down to - Thursday, July 27, 2000 at 18:37:59 (BST)
sonj <carsten, it's past your bedtime.>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:21:42 (BST)

This in defense of socialists who live in the world: Billy's website is so full of so much--political news, musical news, information about his tours, stuff for sell, and also stuff he is giving away for free. Why would anyone complain. I would call the guy a saint, except that I doubt he would want to be called such a thing.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:15:18 (BST)

I meant that Simone was an anorexic. She was not a disease. She suffered from a disease.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:13:16 (BST)

Kim, are you referring to Simone Weil, the Jewish philosopher who converted to Catholicism in 1943? Besides being a brilliant philosopher, it seems she was an anorexia and self-starvation contributed to her death. Or are you referring to Simone de Beauvoir, Sartre's lover who is a leading feminist thinker and novelist?
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:12:05 (BST)

Kim, Simone de Beauvoir peut-être?
Carsten
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:10:12 (BST)

paulette-jo, Billy Bragg earns his living as a singer song writer. That involves people paying to see him ( unless it's at a political gig ) and buying his Cd's and stuff. How do you earn your living? Socialism is an economic system based on social ownership. Billy Bragg lives in england which has a capitalist economy. One of the ultimate aims of a socialist or communist society is ''from each according to his ability, to each according to his need'. Billy certainly gives his best whenever he performs!
sonja <braggpuss@hotmail.com>
now have jelly from the co-op. luckily i still jave a bit of stoli left, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 00:49:15 (BST)

www.org/~drz/tom.leher there is a Tom Leher web site with lots of information.
James
New Paltz, NY, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 00:44:14 (BST)

Trying to think of the name of the 20th c. female French socialist writer, also a Catholic, who was involved in the labor movement. Someone on the guestbook last year said she idolized this woman as a teen-ager.
Kim
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 22:43:08 (BST)

That's very possible, Pam. I was organizing for the UFW back then, and we routinely attended a lot of rallies. Many of them really do blend in together so I can't remember the exact cause anymore.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 22:35:03 (BST)

Robin, might it have been the rally for Salvador Allende? That was one that Ochs organized and while I'd have to look up the date, it was towards the end of his life.
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 22:12:36 (BST)

i spose you've got a point jon, how do you consolidate those two apparently opposed veiws,billy? socialism and making money from us?
paulette-jo
reno.Nev, usa - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 21:05:48 (BST)

Then I saw Ochs in 1975, but it wasn't at the War Is Over rally. It was either something for Puerto Rican Independence or AIM. 25 years was a long time ago.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:54:16 (BST)

There is Power in a Union: Thursday night the Golden Gate Chapter of the Labor Party was meeting at Local 6 (ILWU). Also meeting there were the newly organized bicycle messengers' union (ILWU). A female messenger parked her bike out front (locked of course) and shortly before the meeting was to start, someone came running into the building shouting that a bicycle was being stolen. The woman rushed out and said, "Oh no, that was mine and it's gone." I stupidly sat there thinking about Bicycle Thief and that since she made a living with her bicycle, this was a disaster. However, the other messengers rushed outside and someone hopped on a motorcycle and rode after the thief who abandoned the bicycle and ran off. Solidarity pays off--the woman got her bike back and the meeting continued--lots of members attending, and they are soooo cooool!
Carol
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:28:33 (BST)

Why does Bragg just use his ingratiating website to sell more of his psuedo socialist products ?
jonboy <jonboy_31@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:21:00 (BST)

http://www.egroups.com/message/billy-bragg/840
Luther Gaylord
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:16:50 (BST)

Carol...that was Tom Paxton
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:06:51 (BST)

to pam and others who replied, thanks for pointing me int he direction of the millenium song mp3. ive just remembered he played power in a union on thursday nite also... the ciders' weraing off!
Nevski
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 19:40:54 (BST)

Sonja--Just drink the Stoli straight and and toast American folksingers. My favorite satirical song is What Did You Learn In School Today because it has the most political bite. For the life of me I can't remember whow rote it.
Carol
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 19:37:13 (BST)

Phil Ochs, i knew a lot of his songs ( sung by Joan Baez for instance ) but i don't think i had heard him singing before i got the tape.
sonj
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:54:05 (BST)

bother, i forgot to buy the jelly! I have got strawberry jam which i think is also called jello in america but it won't quiver in the glass so i don't think it will do.
sonj
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:52:24 (BST)

Phil Ochs' last major rally would have been THE WAR IS OVER Rally (11MAY1975). He did some shows after that in clubs such as Gerde's Folk City and The Bottom Line before committing suicide at his sister Sonny's home, 9APRIL1976.
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:34:56 (BST)

I have a very difficult time spelling Vatican. It comes from writing Steve too much off-line. Another question--My grandson and I just finished watching Loach's My Name Is Joe. In the scene where the soccor team that Joe coaches steals jerseys, the sign on the warehouse says, Arsenal Sports. Is this a generic name for sports products or does it have something to do with Theo's beloved arsenal? Since the jerseys are replicas of a Brazilian team, I was puzzled.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:15:12 (BST)

When I hear the Vatocan Rag, I think of Luther. genuflect, genuflect...
Carol
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:10:59 (BST)

I'm sorry I never did finish putting together the page on Phil Ochs that I had planned to. One of these days, I will work on my website again.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:01:47 (BST)

Karen Einstein introduced me to Phil Ochs in 1975, when she was 16 and I was 17. I didn't know anyone on here back then. I did see him at a rally once in 1976 or 77.
Red Robin <it's all your fault, sonja!>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:00:28 (BST)

robin came on here when after i visited her site and left a message sayinng i had come from the planet BBgb and was seeking enlightenment about Phil Ochs, hence i am responsible for robin meeting Luther
sonj <time to go to my rightful place, in the kithchen cleaning the broken fridge so i can have a repair man out without him risking salmonella and e-coli>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:51:29 (BST)

Tettland, i've appeased alberr with a nice lunch and a promise of stolly jelly for tea and he is snoozing so i have sneaked on here to catch up with the gossip. Thanks for the mail, i'll respond soon. What year was that BB/AA gig on Clapham common? Has there been more than one? I'll let you know why i want to know.
sonj <the chastisement was to write out 100 times, i will not wind up luther by talking about my appliances>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:48:30 (BST)

It's like a big huge pyramid scheme!
Luther Gaylord
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:47:27 (BST)

Since I introduced Pete Crook to the music of Phil Ochs, and since Pete (apparently) was the one to introduce Sonj to Phil's music, I guess that means I'm responsible for introducing Sonj to Phil Ochs.
Luther Gaylord
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:46:28 (BST)

Nor Bill Hicks, for that matter.
S.
S.C., - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:09:34 (BST)

I've had "Vatican Rag" stuck in my head all morning--hell yeah, it's catchy! In 4th grade chorus we learned T. Lehrer's song "Pollution"--"If you go to an American city, you will find it very pretty, just 2 things of which you must beware, don't drink the water and don't breathe the air"--tho I must say I caught a good whiff of some gnarly exhaust fumes in London! I don't know how those bike messengers survive it! Never heard of Billy Connelly--tell me more.
Susan
Santa Cruz, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:03:06 (BST)

Sorry, can't read.
Tettland
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:59:58 (BST)

Sorry, Big-Bob Joylove.
Tettland
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:46:54 (BST)

Is Big-Bob Joylove really Luther? and if not who the hell is Bib-Bob Joylove? SONJ: Guess Alberr caught you then. Have been chastised?
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:46:00 (BST)

Hur hurr ... I getcha...
Big-Bob Joylove (aka Luther) <stuffing used £50 notes into someone's pocket>
Enfield, UK - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:28:30 (BST)

Never heard of Tom Lehrer until now, must check him out. I guess you've all "done" the Bill Hicks chat (full-on, US lefty comedian, died a few years back of cancer, who Dennis Leary would love to be but never will be...), once described as "Noam Chomsky with dick jokes"? Ooops, there I go again bringing Mr C onto the BBgb... PS. SONJ: Did you get the magnum opus mail?
Tettland <...or is it sonja ...or red robin...or theo ...or bob/mike s etc?>
Somewhere, Not tellin' - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:25:30 (BST)

happy honeymoon john and the new mrs john.
sonj <billy is lovely>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:46:25 (BST)

Billy Connelly had his own sit-com in the states
Brian
London, UK - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:43:20 (BST)

thank you for calling me on my wedding day you are the best billy!
JOHN DUMMETT <johne_d75@hotmail.com>
newcastle, australia - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 13:55:16 (BST)

thank you for calling me on my wedding day you are the best billy!
JOHN DUMMETT <johne_d75>
newcastle, australia - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 13:52:24 (BST)

Just Curious, but is Billy Connelly the commedian/musician/actor well known in America
Steve <Sawasdee Krap nonlaup sa bai dee>
Burp, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 12:19:07 (BST)

lazz, i'm going to save that seuss poem just in case my treckie brother makes me an auntie. I love it. Have got a bit of stolly left in the fridge ( it's only the freezer bit that's broken ) so alberr and i will be having stolly jelly for tea:)
sonj 
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 09:31:58 (BST)

i know fractals are real because i had to buy Emma (youngest ilford girl) a book about them/it when she was at bradford uni. Having said that, just because there is a book about it doesn't make it real. The first time i played a Phil Ochs tape (probably the one i got from pete) i was reminded straight away of Tom Lehrer. I am old enough to remember 'that was the week that was' but if you hadn't mentioned it Pam i wouldn't have remembered the connection.
sonj <Uncle Bill says we can talk about whatever we like on here as long as we are nice to each other.>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 09:06:15 (BST)

The Tom Lehrer tape is the funniest thing since Sunderland Beat Leeds and I read Luther's message board (laugh you old git)..
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 08:12:47 (BST)

I think Lazz has been experimenting with the vodka jello recipe.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 07:25:10 (BST)

If Dr. Seuss Wrote A Star Trek: The Next Generation Episode... Picard: Sigma Indri, that's the star, So, Data, please, how far? How far? Data: Our ship can get there very fast But still the trip will last and last We'll have two days til we arrive But can the Indrans there survive? Picard: LaForge, please give us factor nine. LaForge: But, sir, the engines are offline!*there's a lot more*
lazz <http://www.igs.net/~tril/humor/seuss_st.txt>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 07:20:37 (BST)

vodka jello recipe: Follow the canonical Jello procedure, dissolving the Jello in hot water, but adding vodka instead of the cold water. After some very pleasant experimentation, my friend and I decided that orange Jello worked best (and that vodka was preferable to gin), but she later told me that lime Jello with Daiquiris also went over (or down) very well. By the way, I didn't invent the basic concept -- for example, there is a recipe for wine in gelatin which goes way back.
tom lehrer
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:57:49 (BST)

Question: Are you not a fan of organized religion in general and are you a "spiritual" person? TomLehrer: To say that I am not a "fan" of organized religion is putting it mildly. My feeling about even disorganized religion is summed up in James Taylor's immortal line in "Sweet Baby James": "Maybe you can believe it if it helps you to sleep." I have no desire to promote secular insomnia. As for being "spiritual," not in the New Age sense, certainly. I find enough mystery in mathematics to satisfy my spiritual needs. I think, for example, that pi is mysterious enough (don't get me started!) without having to worry about God. Or if pi isn't enough, how about fractals? or quantum mechanics?
lazz <oops is this not the tom lehrer fan club?>
but i'll bet billy loves him, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:55:10 (BST)

steve will appreciate this answer of tom's: Question: Do you still receive royalties from your older recordings? TomLehrer: Yes, thank God (to name a figure from the bourgeois religion myth). Do you think I could just sit around here and do this if I had to hold down a real job at the same time?
lazz
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:53:21 (BST)

Tom has been given the credit for the invention of something every college student knows and loves - the Vodka Jello Shooter. This concoction - gelatin mixed with vodka instead of water, set, and served in a shot glass, wiggles and all - was apparently created to dodge a certain prohibition against alcoholic beverages on the Harvard campus...because, as everybody knows, Jello is not a beverage...
lazz <jello shots are actually a bit trickier to get them to turn out right>
if you're interested, i can post the recipe, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:46:08 (BST)

Tom Lehrer was one of the best political satirists ever. I still have him on vinyl, but I have no way to play it anymore.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 05:09:03 (BST)

First you get down on your knees. Fiddle with your rosaries. Bow your head with deep respect and genuflect, genuflect, genuflect....Ave Maria! Gee, it's good to see ya. Gettin' ecstatic and kinda dramatic and doin' the Vatican Rag.
Tom Lehrer
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:58:48 (BST)

I remember hearing The Vatican Rag on the radio once or twice (it actually is a pretty catchy tune)...and it looks like Lehrer did stuff for The Electric Company kids show.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:46:36 (BST)

Tom Lehrer was at UC Santa Cruz last I heard. (along with Angela Davis--right on!)
susan
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:38:25 (BST)

here's another good tom lehrer site: http://www.dp9.com/cool/hilary/lowmain.htm
lazz
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:23:30 (BST)

Billy goes Rancid A recent interview goes out on punk band Rancid's web site 'radio' station on Saturday. For this and more news, see News. For tom lehrer, there are numerous sites; here's one with lyrics: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/ The 1953 album, Songs by Tom Lehrer, contains studio recordings of all the songs from Tom Lehrer Revisited. The 1959 album More Songs by Tom Lehrer contains studio recordings of all the songs from An Evening (Wasted) With Tom Lehrer. Both of these albums are out of print, however, they are collectively available on the 1996 album Songs & More Songs by Tom Lehrer, currently available from Rhino Records. This album contains all of the tracks from the other two, along with 1960 orchestral recordings of four of the songs, and a 1996 recording of I Got it From Agnes. For those who don't know, Tom Lehrer is a schoolteacher who enjoyed a career during the 1950's and 1960's as a satirical songwriter. If you've never heard him, he's very similar to Mark Russell, except that he's funny.
lazz
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:20:05 (BST)

If it is the same Tom Lehrer who wrote those songs then here's his story. Lehrer was professor at Harvard (Princeton? MIT?)...some highly regarded eastern university. As a hobby he wrote satirical songs on political and social topics. About this time, the hit television show on the BBC was a weekly comedy series, That Was the Week That Was. It was so popular that American TV decided to copy it and hired Lehrer as one of its regular contributors. TW3 had a cult following (including me--even though I was a wee one then) but quickly got in trouble with its sponsors due to content. (In some ways it was the precurser of the Smothers Brothers problems with the CBS network) Later on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In gentled some of the satire and adopted the quick cross-cut from skit to skit and became one of the most popular shows in American TV history. When TW3 closed, Lehrer continued doing some live performances and produced a couple of albums. The last I heard, he had returned to teaching math at that prestigious university the name of which continues to escape me right now.
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 02:00:42 (BST)

Steve: "The Bomb," "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park," "Vatican Rag," "Pollution," "The Elements," "New Math"....any of these on the tape?
Pam Raver
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:42:57 (BST)

STEVE: Tom Lehrer did political commentary via "novelty" songs and wrote "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park." Wish I could interpret your dream...
Kim
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:42:29 (BST)

this was just sent to me..."the political situation is entirely different in Brazil, as shown in yesterday's letter from author Huascar Terra do Valle. http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9527.htm Brazil is the world's largest Roman Catholic nation, but their President is an atheist. Unlike today's American politicians, President Fernando Henrique Cardoso has learned that keeping quiet on one's personal religious faith (or lack thereof) is expedient. Not only must a representative or a leader represent all citizens, she or he best realize that whether or not a god exists (or who that god is or what it says) is one of the least important topics over which to argue."
Steve <off to the bush>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:41:34 (BST)

Laura, thanks for that tape you sent, its a brilliant tape of Tom Leher from about 1965 I know nothing about this guy, is it the same person who now has a news show on US TV??..any info
Steve
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:39:13 (BST)

Nevski, that's Luther's site. Since he isn't around at the moment to tell you, the URL is http://hillstrom.iww.org/music/billybragg/Bragg_originals/
Pam Raver <raverp@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:37:19 (BST)

I HAD A DREAM..a vivid dream, It was 6pm Saturday 19th August and Theo was driving down the A19(trunk road to Sunderland,if you ever Motor 'North East')laughing and crying at the same time..what could this mean??
Steve <positiveatheist@email.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:32:43 (BST)

You can get The Millenium Song Nevski if you follow Billys unofficial links, take the first link on the list then click on the "links and stuff" icon and go into the first link. there is a list of folders, click on the bragg originals folder where you will find a very good live version. Good luck.
Andy Tyrrell <andybragg237@yahoo.co.uk>
Grimsby, England - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:28:04 (BST)

Brian..The Members, there's a band..at the Chelsea Nightclub album is brilliant..do you know what Nicky Tesco is doing now?..ships changing names..this happens often,(unless she's called the QE2) for several resons usually the ship may be re-registered at another port/country, it may be bought by another company,or has changed its usual routes(marketing). I worked on a cruise ship for 6 years and it had been renamed twice in 15 years...why am I soberly rambling.
Steve <WishyWashyWobbleyMackem@herbalteaforum>
SOL, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:26:21 (BST)

i would have lost my bet, i reckoned 'the people' would keep caroline in there. I think she is lovely!
sonj 
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 00:02:31 (BST)

sonj: I have changed my mind about Nick
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:57:58 (BST)

did pete c go to sidmouth for his holidays? Did you spot him there nevski? i wonder if there will be a bootleg tape? BB is always best 'live' i reckon.
sonj <'fraid alberr has noticed excessive postings today. If you don't hear from me again you'll know why!>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:42:36 (BST)

anywhere i can get millenium song in mp3 anyone?
nevski
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:10:45 (BST)

nevski, at least three of my very favourite songs..and cider too!
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:06:21 (BST)

I seem to have erased my e-mail addressbook, so will those of you who don't post addresses get them to me, please?
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:56:33 (BST)

in a vain attempt to inject a little bragg news onto the board... set list as i remember it (not in order) Upfield,way over yonder in the minor key, ingrid bergman,my flying saucer,black wind blowing, between the wars, millenium song, brickbat, the one i dont know the name of about reclaiming english identity from the boot boys...World turned upside down... errr and probably many others i cant remember now. it seemed like a god idea to try and list em all... guess that cider was effective after all.....
nevski
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:51:01 (BST)

If you think Bobo is bad you should check out "Generation Jones" (another demographic/marketing concept thats floating around out there...doesn't quite have the media play Bobo is getting). Or even worse check out some of Michael Weiss' stuff on "market clusters". ("Single City Blues", "Old Yankee Rows", etc.).
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:45:36 (BST)

It was such a great typo I had to leave it!<