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Carol - apparently 'shite' is the older form of the word, existant in Old English, which got shortened to 'shit'. I had never noticed any class distictions in its use by the British before, though personally I find 'shite' far more satisfying for reasons I cannot analyze. As in... no, wait, I shall keep that thought to myself.
Bogues
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:40:13 (BST)

Disgusting? I'm really puzzled now.
Bob
US - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:37:36 (BST)

Bob: Shut your disgusting mouth. That is all.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:36:05 (BST)

Steve - I couldn't possibly take your single off you - I look up virtually *everything* I ever post here. I've more than enough pointless triv stuffed into my head - any more and my ears'll bleed...
Bogues <Shameless searcher>
Pink Fairies? - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:26:22 (BST)

"[J]umped [yo] shit"??? You so street, Lutha!
Bob
USA - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 06:23:04 (BST)

And Carol: There clearly *is* a double standard here. When Robin can suggest that I should be slammed hard in the face with an iron mask, no one says anything in protest. But when I calmly and civilly questioned your assertion that African Americans are the single most oppressed group in U.S. history, Mike Fowler and Sonja Pedersen jumped my shit. That is a glaring double standard, my dear.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:53:26 (BST)

You're right that we haven't seen postings here from racist skinheads, Carol. But I was using skinheads as an example, to undercut your "everyone's opinion has value" argument. I disagree with that assertion, as I disagree with much of what you say here. There are some people here for whom I have absolutely no respect, so I guess I won't be able to fulfill requirement #2. I'll have to carry on without my sainthood. Darn.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:50:43 (BST)

Oh no, not more flame wars! QUICK everyone who doesn't want to get involved: name your 5 favorite BB tunes--the first ones that come into your head. 1) The Short Answer 2)Between the wars 3) Greetings to the new Brunette 4)St. Swithin's Day 5) Levi Stubbs Tears
Susan
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:46:41 (BST)

Bogues: B.B. song inspired by his son on William Bloke (not our favorite, I know...) Space race is over. Bill said that the song's origin was Jack's interest in the moon when he first started talking.
Susan
Santa Cruz, USA - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 05:42:55 (BST)

Steve, shouting racist at skinheads proves nothing because they are proud to be racists.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:40:58 (BST)

Luther, what the fuck it the matter with you?
Red Robin
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:40:48 (BST)

Wasps..the skinheads of the insect world
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:33:05 (BST)

and no searching?
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:32:19 (BST)

Bogues you bastard...ok single on its way address please.....CHINKY is an aweful word, the line between lets go down the chinkies and "The Chinky Bastards" is easily crossed by many people... you treading a thinline there Carol with the Skinheads...I had a skinhead when I was 13, only because of the reggae song skinhead moonstomp by symarip and me Mam had bought me a harrington jacket(dead hard,pet)and a pair of monkey boots??..then my brother pointed out what a twat I looked, so I bought a wig..(not really)..ok Bogues Larry Wallis who was on the live stiffs tour name one previous band he was in (prog rock)
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
no xmas for junkies(john quays?..geddit), - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:31:10 (BST)

No one who posts here is a skinhead, Luther. However, dismissing skinheads as racist shit(e) proves nothing. Condemning racism and the acts of racists is important, but once in a while, skinheads have been turned around when shown compassion.
CAROL
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 04:09:01 (BST)

Do you respect the opinions of racist skinheads, Carol? Or you dismiss them as full of shite? I'm just wondering how far I'm supposed to take this "be nice to people" crap you're laying on me as a condition of sainthood.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:28:03 (BST)

I have something very important to ask. Last night I watched Warriors, the BBC movie about British UN peacekeepers, and I noticed something that puzzled me. The working class soldiers (mostly from Liverpool) used the word "shite." So far, so good. But the upper class officers said "shit," the way Americans do (expect when they say caca). So is this a class thing, or is it regional, and the closer one gets to Scotland, the more one says Shite. Please enlighten me.
Carol
land of excrement - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:18:57 (BST)

I must apolgize to Luther. The Pope is fallable. What I meant to say is: I would gladly canonize you, Luther,...
Pope Carol
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:13:07 (BST)

I would gladly you, Luther if you do the following: 1) not quote song lyrics as an argument; 2) respect others' opinions and not just dismiss them; 3) stop calling people shallow and hypocritical; 4) stop personalizing discussions; 5) stop complaining that there is a double standard and everyone thinks you are the devil. I know that the last one would make you a martyr, but a false martyr. People on here think you are very intelligent and have interesting things to add to discussions. It is your tone that they object to. Oh, one more thing: neither the Pope, Jesus or his father cares if people's grammar is correct. We understand what they mean, and content is far more important than context. Remember, the humble will rule.
Pope Carol
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:12:06 (BST)

I'm guessing that I'll have to start using the word "chinky" to be a saint in Carol's book.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 03:10:04 (BST)

'No Xmas for John Quays' by The Fall...
Bogues
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 02:39:41 (BST)

'No Xmas for John Quays' by The Fall...
Bogues
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 02:39:15 (BST)

Luther, how about 198 MP3s of you singing the full Alan Hull/lindisfarne back catalogue in the bath/shower...great reggae album to buy is.."Dont Call Us Immigrants" a compilation of the British Reggae, including Misty in Roots, Black Slate and Matumbi's reading of Bob Dylans Man is me.its on pressure sounds pscd28
Steve <lower working class poser>
one notch under a snakes belly, hallelujah! brothers and sisters - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 02:25:08 (BST)

Carol: What must I do in order to be canonized by you?
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:45:52 (BST)

if you thought i was serious please ignore the post before last?..eh!
steve <on a highway to hell>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:25:39 (BST)

ok Bogues, here's a real challenge, a rare dr feelgood single(very rare) if you can tell me which band and song does the name johnquays come from
Steve <larrywallis' paychedelic rowdies@nicklowes last chicken in the shop>
a live stiff, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:22:06 (BST)

if anyone wants a sample of my healing liquid gold, e-mail johnquays
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:16:45 (BST)

thanks Pete
steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:14:37 (BST)

By Ailing I meant spiritually not physically and by spiritually i mean mind, not soul..(sheesh its called covering your tracks).....if super Kev puts three past seaman on saturday he will be a siant - no worries..
Steve <thesoundofthesuburbs@thedaytheworldturneddayglo>
are you anal or oral family, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:12:46 (BST)

Steve, that was evil.
pete w <but very amusing indeed>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:07:50 (BST)

I was given a platic Virgin Mary effigy off an Ailing Catholic Italian Employer once,she had been to Lourdes, so I took it home emptied it, and filled it up with my very healthy 'yellow' Vitamin C induced pee. I gave her it back the next day saying it had turned gold over night and she should keep it safe as it could be a signal??..bless her.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
miracles happen all thetime like arsenal wining the championship this year, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 01:04:07 (BST)

Wow! thanks carol! *heals you all of your ailments. Except steve*
pete w <deathtotheunbelievers>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:59:11 (BST)

What's so wrong with Opray?...ok she's stinking rich, sometimes makes one want to vomit..but the other day I watched her do a show on parenting, and it was very interesting, with specialists showing how parents can fuck kids up. I suppose she's an easy target on here..Ive met many expert mothers who hit there kids
Steve
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:57:47 (BST)

In the interim, I'd really quite like one of those plastic virgin marys to stick on my dashboard. Mark - I think you have to give ageing musicians, like ageing family members, liberty to potter about becoming completely absorbed in side-projects which end up sorely trying the patience of their family/fans. Still it's nice to see some outright condemnation of Billy here....
pete w <hardcoretim@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:57:38 (BST)

I long ago declared you a saint, Pete W, and I have the power, since I am the Pope.
Carol <whatareyuoutalkingabout@thisistherealworld.mtv>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:55:48 (BST)

It's kind of an ambition of mine to be canonised by the catholic church, as it happens. I reckon I can get my surviving relatives and numerous progeny to fake the miracles... Hester, are you stoned again? :)
pete w <thursdaythursdaythursday/fuckandbuggery>
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:51:25 (BST)

Leicester 2000 Thanks Billy - paid £12.50 to listen to about 90 minutes of you promoting your bloody Mermaid album. I went to be inspired - I ended up, well I suppose.........cheers for nothing mate....still I have got all the old stuff to remind me.
Mark
- Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:43:19 (BST)

Just a couple of things - I read that you can only be sainted once you have three official Vatican-approved miracles directly credited to you (though these can be posthumous miracles). Hilarious. On the subject of native Americans, surely that term applies to anyone born in the American continent? And finally, I have one Wreckless Eric record - an 8-track 10-inch brown vinyl EP called 'Wreckless Eric', including a cover of Ian Dury & Russel Hardy's 'Rough Kids'. A quid second hand. Bargain.
Rich
London, - Tuesday, August 15, 2000 at 00:26:19 (BST)

Stung into action by "the real world" I'm off to work. Not a life, but a livelihood. Potential discussion seed - now that BB's a papa too, has he written anything specifically aimed at (or even about) kids? The fact that 'Tank Park Salute' rates as a favourite of mine is based upon its child-centred references. I suppose 'Hoodoo Voodoo' on MM1 is kind of for kids. Anything else?
Boguespierre
Yokohama, City of Industry, Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:43:00 (BST)

to eleborate upon what Red Robin said, Colubus cam here seekeing the East Indies, looking for of all things Pepper! Pepper was like gold in Europe at that time, before refirgeration and it was the only way to preserve food and mask any old flovors He landed on the island of Hispanola (Hati and the Dominican Republic) believeing he had reached India.
James <Hooked to Ska>
New Paltz, NY, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:30:48 (BST)

Starting to doubt my own identity now... For understandable reasons I'm not aware of any blood link to the Fowlers of Albert Square, unless perhaps I *am* a fictional construct. All my most colourful relatives are on the Irish side, so bear different surnames. My kid brother *has* named his eldest boy Harry, which conjours up images of an East End spiv to those of us around in the 60s (some connection to Kenny Lynch, wasn't it?). I can't think of a coherent link in the posts Sonj refers to - I have my own fair share of fecal war stories with the three boys, but they are better unpublished. Tony Hancock? I tried to be a blood donor recently, but got all the way to the ARC to be told that as a Brit I'm irredeemably tarnished with the stigma of the Mad Cow....
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:18:49 (BST)

get lives
the real world
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 23:16:57 (BST)

No that's mark fowler and he definitely isn't called Bogues because he's a real personand has market stall in Albert Sq, an everything. Tak, i lige måde.
tettland <still here... just>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:35:58 (BST)

oh tett! it is so bloody confusing. isn't mike fowler someone in east enders? or am i thinking of corrie. no, that's mike baldwin... god nat, sojve godt.
sonja 
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:30:39 (BST)

that should read 'Being done'... you 'ave been!
Tettland 
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:22:09 (BST)

And just one more thing... 'Being done' ... you've been!
Tettland <He's got the natural arrogance of an exclamation mark...!!!!>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:20:35 (BST)

Sonj, I think Mike (Fowler) is Bogues in disguise, or is it the other way round? Does Bogues have a real person's name? Does he really exist? Oh, it can't be true! Right, that's spoiled it for me I'm going to bed!
Tettland <tired and a few biscuits short of a packet>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:18:04 (BST)

brring brring
*
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 22:12:25 (BST)

'being done' even...
C
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:56:42 (BST)

Derik, I don't think Duras is bring done any justice by comparing her to 'Nouveau-Roman' type writers. Recommendations? - Apart from the obvious 'Hiroshima mon amour', 'The Lover' is not bad, but I like her shorter stuff better. Try her shortest and in my opinion most intense piece called 'L'homme assis dans le couloir' ('The man in the corridor'?) which you can finish in under an hour.
Carsten
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:54:32 (BST)

jon, i am watching HM but i have to leave the room when it gets very violent.
sonja-gain
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:49:07 (BST)

What is the link between the last couple of posts, Bogues and Tony Hancock? Cyber fiver for the first correct answer..
sonj <this competition is not open to the reed family or any of their offfspring>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 21:47:48 (BST)

It has been raining for almost a month now. I have had a migraine every day since Noah began building his ark. There was a long enough break for us to bring the kids to the Philadelphia Zoo yesterday, and it's been on-and-off torrential downfalls ever since. We don't need the hose to wash the kids down.
Red Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 20:19:40 (BST)

Sounds unpleasant. It is raining here and i am wet. Over.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 20:14:23 (BST)

Kim: I've emailed you. I don't know if this will be helpful, but my twins both have some sort of intestinal ailment today - as did my 10-year-old a few days ago.
Red Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 20:10:16 (BST)

Kim. What's the weather like there? If at all possible leave children to run around naked outdoors. Hose down from time to time. Food does not need to be hot to be healthy.
sonj
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:53:18 (BST)

it's great here, while i have been at work the pc fairy has created a napster id for me and i've got loads of braggy stuff:)
sonj <is ther someone else on here with a name like but not quite mine. Who is mike? Sorry sadie, i thought you were sada.>
have i caught up yet?, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:48:42 (BST)

St. Chris wasn't demoted; he was just placed on a secondary list of saints that may or may not be fictional characters/legends. Catholics are permitted to honor him as they wish, and you can still buy St. Christopher medals and tacky dashboard statues.
Kim
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:47:19 (BST)

Red Robin and all others who have ever taken care of small children and lived to tell about it...please e-mail me as soon as possible, as I have been visited by The Fecal Fairy (literally) this afternoon and am having one of those What-The-F@#$?! moments and am in desperate need of childrearing advice.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:45:57 (BST)

jon, thanks for the grauniad thingy, i didn't get one today.
sonj
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:44:11 (BST)

They Un-sainted St. Christopher. But Tom Waits wrote a song about him, so he lives on.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:19:53 (BST)

St. Carol - the Lady of the Bay... That would make a good song!
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:06:59 (BST)

"too much".... another product of poor typing.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:05:51 (BST)

Theo, I think it's canonization. Because ole Nick and his family suffered. I am suffering at work right now. I want to be declared a saint. Actually, I'll settle for the Czar's jewels. That room made of amber that the Nazis destroyed. Most of the Russians in San Francisco want a decent job and a place to live. Sainthood be damned.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:04:40 (BST)

Sainthood is just another corrupt political coup. The connotations of sainthood have little to do with the political agendas of those who grant such titles. It is clear to much of reality is obscured by religious fantasy.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 19:04:19 (BST)

Apologises for the tautology (is that the right word ? is that how you spell it ?) below.
Theo
London, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:57:14 (BST)

Is it April Fools Day ? I've just seen that Tsar Nicholas II, and his family have been given 'Sainthoods' by The Russian Orthodox Church. Now, I accept the Church didn't exactly flourish after his death but, surely, giving such an honour to a murderer, such as he, is beyond a joke ? Which other historical fascists from history could be next ? When Maggie 'goes', could she be in line for one ?
Theo
London, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:50:45 (BST)

Hester: Even if I turned around and you were there wielding a plastic spoon I would have no idea it was you, as I have never seen you. Make sure you announce yourself first so my ghost can come back and haunt you.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:30:01 (BST)

EXPLICIT DISCLAIMER FOR SONJA PEDERSON AND MIKE FOWLER: No part of my last post was intended as an attack on Carol Tarlen.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:16:11 (BST)

NEW BRAGG COVERS! Thanks to Mark Warner in Australia, there are three new covers available for download from the Billy Bragg Digital Archive: (1) Jenny Morris, "The Price I Pay" (2) Deadbeat Society, "You Woke Up my Neighbourhood" (3) Dave Stewart & Barbara Gaskin, "Levi Stubbs' Tears" See http://hillstrom.iww.org/music/billybragg/other_artists_cover_Bragg/
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 18:15:34 (BST)

Hester, at the moment, there is nothing I would like more than to be killed with a plastic spoon. Dig away!
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:26:13 (BST)

The last time I saw Oprah - by accident - she was whining about her relatives all asking her for money. The show was about all these wealthy people, and how they are preyed on by relatives for handouts. For some reason, after that show, and I had no desire to see Oprah again.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:24:59 (BST)

hester, you will have to come to the US to do your dirty deeds, and we already have enough serial killers and mass murderers as it is. Stay on your side of the pond with your evil Oprah ways.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:20:00 (BST)

i bow to your superior knowledge. but oprah says 'native american', so im gonna have to kill you too robin.
hester <http://www.oprah.com/>
for all your oprah needs, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:13:27 (BST)

The term "indian" came from when Columbus, in his logues about the new world, described the people he had found here as being so beautiful, they must have been made in the image of God - in dios. There was no "India" in the 1490s. In this area, the Powhatan Renape nation holds a semi-annual event they call the American Indian Arts Festival. Their choice of words.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:11:23 (BST)

derik - thats it, im gonna have to kill you now. one of these days youll look over your shoulder, and ill be there brandishing my faithful plastic spoon, and before you can say 'angel network' ill have scooped out your insides. until then youll just have to live in fear.
hester
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:06:27 (BST)

I am scared you are watching Oprah at all, Hester.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:02:15 (BST)

derik & carol - i hope youre not going against the word of oprah, otherwise i may have to kill you
hester
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:01:19 (BST)

The American Indians I have met called themselves Indians. Once this guy handed my grandson a dollar and said, "This was given to you by an American Indian." Then he laughed. This was in 1988. I grew up in Nevada in the 50's, and as a child I went to school with Indians. Of course, no one had thought of the term Native American. Also, wouldn't Indians be native to the place they immigrated from, not the place they immigrated to? Of course, ultimately, I think we should call people what they want to be called, and as far as I know, American Indians prefer that term or else the names of their respective tribbes.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 17:00:32 (BST)

Wish I had me Alexie book with me, I would quote the poem he wrote on the term 'indian'. Something about they are keeping it for themselves. He also says he pronounces it 'in-din'. ?
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:58:45 (BST)

i thought they were only called indians cos the big explorer guy thought he was in india, which, personally i would insulting. and besides, oprah said thats you call them, so it must be true.
hester <still here, in my pyjamus>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:55:29 (BST)

Carol: Depending on what theories you follow, humans would only be native to one part of the earth where they first evolved. I think in this case native refers to the first humans in an area.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:53:57 (BST)

American Indians prefer to be called Indians or to be called by their tribal names--Dakota Souix, Navajo, Hopi, etc. The American Indian Movement (AIM) wasn't called the Native American Movement. One reason is that Indians are not native--they immigrated (correct my terminology if this is the wrong word) many, many hundreds of years ago--not sure when.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:49:29 (BST)

I was a Minor, But I wasn't a Docker !
still suitable though..
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:46:39 (BST)

"minors"
Bob
USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:39:57 (BST)

Strange but true - follow the link to Merchandise above. Look at the cover photo to "Still Suitable For Miners". What's wrong with that picture? Answer tomorrow in the unlikely event no-one else spots it...
Bogues <Last contribution before bed>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:27:53 (BST)

Yes, and the alcohol too. I assume there were free drinks to gamblers?(that's what they do in Tahoe..) What a scary additctive mix! Oppression and addiction go hand in hand (Slaves and sugar/tobacco production, alcohol on reservations, the list goes on)
Susan
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:27:26 (BST)

On reparations - it's quite likely that my mother's Irish ancestors were repressed by my father's English ancestors. What to do? (I'll write myself a cheque, but how much for...?).
Bogues <getting silly - it's late...>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:16:15 (BST)

Tastes *really* bad. I went to Foxwoods in Connecticut shortly after it opened a few years back, and have ever since been haunted by a feeling that I was in the presence of some great collar-and-tie EVIL. The place exists to suck money from those who cannot afford it - little booths all around the gaming floors where they will give you a cash advance against your credit card (car, house, children...). I hate gambling for the same reason I hate hard drugs - I know that I would be too weak to back away once I got started.
Boguespierre
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:13:33 (BST)

Yes, this has been a great topic. It is important to look at: why reparation instead of changing the presently oppressive system. I think that reparations do allow folks to feel like "oh well, I did something, I can let go of my white liberal guilt now..." And it is problematic to *rate* the oppressions of different groups. So while I don't want to totally dis the reparations idea, total change of the system should be advocated--I suppose one is for the politicians and the other is for the more revolutionary folks. ah, so much work to do! Also: I'd love more information on the Native American Casino issue. It does *taste* bad.
Susan <anotherwishywashywannabe>
Santa Cruz, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 16:04:17 (BST)

Tettland - ignite away, the debate itself has been thoroughly interesting and well-discussed (we just got a bit pissy with each other, as usual). As a silly example, it would be facetious to say that the English deserve compensation from the Italians for the oppression inherent in the Roman occupation (though I still think we should sue those Norman bastards...). I guess reparations can only be meaningful where an identifiable group *still* clearly suffers the consequences of a historical act (or contemporary act, for that matter). Maybe the whole focus upon the acts of our ancestors is inappropriate - maybe we should be looking at what's wrong here and now, and working to correct it irrespective of which long-dead oppressors created the situation.
Boguespierre
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:53:23 (BST)

Bogues: I don't think there is such a thing as a cast iron PC term... Re: Reparations: Once you start where do you stop? I mean there are few that have not been screwed over by someone in power. You could take it all the way back to the Middle Ages and the peasants in the Feudal System (or does the bourgeoise 'revolution' make up for that?). I don't think handing out money is going to solve anything without changing the system all this is contained within...
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:51:58 (BST)

Mr CashWilson: if you're looking in, this one's for you. Welcome to the BBgb.
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com > working part-time! you cheeky monkey.>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:45:55 (BST)

Do I get any extra bonus points for having the same first names as one Steven William Bragg?
Tettland <Gordon Bennett! The sun's shining in Denmark!>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:44:49 (BST)

At the risk of re-igniting the debate about reparations to ethnic/cultural groups, I'd like to add a few things. I don't think that there is anyone on the BBgb that would disagree with the central point that African Americans and American Indians (Native Americans?) have suffered massive injustices both historically and currently (as have/do Black, Pakistani, Indian, Irish, etc. Britons for that matter). I think we'd all agree with the general principle that people who have had something stolen from them (land, property etc) should, as minimum justice and where possible, get back what they had stolen from them. If this is not possible then some form of reparation should be made, obviously by the body responsible for the injustice. But we should remember that financial reparation is no substitute for real social justice. I think Norman Finkelstein's (a nod to Bogues) really interesting point is that there is a moral problem (for a socialist) when you start drawing up heirarchies of injustice by saying this group is more deserving of financial reparations than that group. Then you end up in the morally reprehensible position of saying that our suffering throughout history has been worse than yours (eg. the crimes of the slave trade vs. the crimes of the Holocaust etc). Ultimately there are so many victims of colonialism, nationalism, and patriarchal-capitalism (what about women, the disabled, the working class, gays/lesbians?) that the only way to secure justice for all victims of opression is radical resdistribution of wealth and power, and respect for human and civil rights as laid down in UN declaration of human rights. In a phrase, democratic socialism and I thought most of us here believed in that anyway?
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com waitingforthegreatleapforward>
Copenhagen, DK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:42:23 (BST)

Good point, Derik. What on earth is a cast-iron PC term that one can safely use then?
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:37:28 (BST)

No thanks Bogues. I will not apologize for that one. If someone wants to flame me on that, it is fine. But I'd like to see a reference from an actual Indian on it.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:36:43 (BST)

Actually Hester many Indians prefer that term. As America is a name that white people gave this land. See refered to Sherman Alexie book.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:35:31 (BST)

Sir! Sir! Sir! It was Derik who said "Indians", sir! Oooh, he's going to be in all sorts of trouble when Luther logs on.... Quick, Derik, apologize pre-emptively and save us another flame war.
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:35:28 (BST)

or indeed stop *watching* oprah, although...
hester <mulletspice@hotmail.com>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:27:10 (BST)

sorry for being pedantic and overly pc and everything, but shouldnt that be 'native americans', and not 'indians' (as far as i can make out its a bit like calling someone a 'paki', which isnt nice).
hester <maybe i should stop the oprah winfrey show>
just back from sunny stockport, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:25:33 (BST)

Robin - Uhh, yes. Testicles are funny. Not with any particular sexual connotation, just because they're... I don't know, somewhat ridiculous. I find the Japanese attitude to such things quite healthy, actually.
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:24:10 (BST)

Waiting for Princess Mononoke on video, as i missed it at the one theatre it played at in the area. I loved "My Neighbor Totoro" though. Saw it twice.
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:22:06 (BST)

Didn't mean to ask that twice, though that question does bear repeating.
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:16:54 (BST)

Bogues: you are showing testicle jokes to an 8-year-old?
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:15:02 (BST)

Bogues: you are showing testicle jokes to an 8-year-old?
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:14:59 (BST)

Theo, I saw the typo before I hit "submit" and thought it was too funny to change. I know Santa isn't Satan, but as I said before, red does seem to be the appropriate color for ay of them - Santa, Satan, S
Red Robin
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 15:11:22 (BST)

Derik - as planned, managed to get hold of "Heisei tanuki gassen pompoko", and at a sale price of 1970 Yen (~$18, which is a real bargain since it is listed at ~$40). Watched it on Saturday with my 8 year old, who was totally comfortable with the Japanese despite having been away for the best part of a year, whilst my aged brain struggled to keep pace. I'm not sure that this one will ever make it onto the Disney list like "Kiki" or "Princess Mononoke" - it's a bit too Japanese centric, and I doubt US audiences are ready for all the testicle jokes (it's funny how the Japanese are as uptight as anyone about a lot of stuff, but they just *love* willy gags...).
Bogues
Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:51:27 (BST)

derik... thanks for the tape... not bad for the morning commute. i think i needed something a bit louder for monday morning.
keri
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:38:39 (BST)

That last message should have read that the Dutch documentary ended with soldiers leaving for Kosovo. Sorry.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:29:35 (BST)

Last year there was a discussion here about the BBC program Warriors (British peacekeeping troops in Bosnia). I saw it last night on my newly expanded to about 100 channels TV service. It was excellent and reminded me of a Dutch documentary I saw in May called Crazy, which chronicled posttraumatic syndrome in Dutch peacekeeping troops from Vietnam to Bosnia. It ended with soldiers leaving for Bosnia. I think that UN troops should be allowed to protect civilian refugees. All in all, I feel we owe UN soldiers from all nations respect and gratitude.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:27:59 (BST)

If you want to keep an eye on the democratic convention protests from an independent view... http://la.indymedia.org/
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:16:13 (BST)

Odd, Indians came up on the guestbook while I was at home reading two books by Sherman Alexie, an excellend contemporary Indian writer. I highly recommend his poetry and prose as a way to learn a bit about contemporary reservation life. "Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven" (short stories) or his most recent "One Stick Song" (poetry).. http://www.fallsapart.com/
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:11:13 (BST)

Carsten: I have been reading some of the french nouveau roman. Marguerite Duras is considered one of them. Would you recommend one of her works?
derik
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:08:36 (BST)

Jon, makes a little more sense if you put them in alphabetical order and only use the first name.
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 14:01:48 (BST)

Thanks Carsten! Just heard a news report on Radio 4 that K4 troops have "taken over" a lead smelting factory in Kosovo (Siberian enclave bit)to save the locals from suffering from lead poisoning pollution. Pity we can't take the same extreme measures in the UK!
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:58:47 (BST)

You bastard Steve!! That's *another* song I'm going to be singing for the rest of the week (much to the concern of my Japanese travelling companions on crowded subway trains). As for Wreckless, he featured prominently on the 4 disc Stiff collection which I shelled out for a few months back. Eric Goulden (aka 'The artist formerly known as Wreckless Eric' - tee hee) has an amusing site at http://www.bigsmash.demon.co.uk/ - he is also on my old copy of 'Live Stiffs', mouldering away along with my copy of the 'Kilburn & The High Roads' EP, 'Stupidity', 'Malpractice', the first Undertones album, the first Talking Heads single, 'Stranded' by The Saints, 'Shot By Both Sides' (Howard DeVoto), and many others which strangely seem to exist as neural MP3s somewhere in my head....
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:39:50 (BST)

Alberr, try http://wiw.org/~drz/tom.lehrer/
Carsten
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:33:49 (BST)

Bill mentioned in an interview with Joe Klien in todays Guardian [ first few paragraphs are about W. Gutrie & the MA project ] http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4051283,00.html ..... 'Judgments on the great figures of the day fall blithely from the lips of Joe Klein, without question the most widely-read political writer in the world: Clinton, Blair, Gore, Bush, Billy Bragg. ' .... pretty seedy company bill's keeping these days it seems.
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:25:36 (BST)

The lunatic hairstyle one from the Kursaal flyers is a journo now at Q mag I believe..she knows that I know that she knows that I know that she knows Im in love with her
steve
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:16:43 (BST)

Bogues,what about Wreckless Eric - The Whole Wide world...I have that Dr Feelgood gig recorded in southend on video ,its also available from their web site..also another video of them with Lee Brilleaux playing slide guitar recorded in Cheltenham, great stuff..had many a "Saturday night under the plastic palm trees" a ref to the locarno ballrooms(mecca in sunderland)
Steve <sir keith joseph smiles and a baby dies in a box on>
Beasley Street, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:13:42 (BST)

Its possible I miscopied the Tom Leher, web site. A search will find it. Its there. The History of Native Americans/African Americans is interwed . In the South, Native Americans were often enlisted to capture escaped slaves. After the Civil War, African Americans became the "Buffalo Soldiers" who faught Native Americans. Now we have Wyona LaDuke, Ralph Nader's running mate, Lakota Tribe and Harvard educated economist. Unlike Debuya (Bush jr.) she got accepted by her own merits and not her family's contribution to the library. www.votenader.com, there are transcripts of her speeches.
James <Rude Boy Train in Comming Down! Rude Boy Train is Comming Down!>
New Paltz, NY - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 13:09:43 (BST)

Too late - found it myself! It was the Leighton Buzzards (Quiz for any non-English reader - why is that such a great name for a band?). Apparently No. 36 in NME's top singles list for 1979, and 1979 was quite a good year. Is there anything you *can't* find on the Net???
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 12:36:46 (BST)

Steve - Continuing the obsession, I just checked out the Feelgoods albums on sale at Amazon UK (they all seem great value at around 8 quid a pop) and found that the track listing for Stupidity ends with "Riot" and "Johnny", so they presumably were originally on the 7 inch. The cover picture brought on more massive floods of nostalgia - I had forgotten Wilko's great slack-jawed face as he skeetered across the stage, especially during the guitar break in "She Does it Right": waaaaah!! I also got reminded that half the album was recorded in Southend, probably at the Kursaal if memory serves me right. Used to go to the funfair there as a kid when my cousins lived down the road in Rochford. I betcha Bill did too. What became of the Kursaal Flyers? And a totally unrelated nostalgia trip - do you recall a song "Saturday Night Beneath the Plastic Palm Trees"? Who *was* that???
Boguespierre
Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 12:12:24 (BST)

Nevski, thanks for posting more details about Billy's setlist at Sidmouth. I'm especially pleased to hear that he sang, 'Black Wind Blowing'. I really feel that it's a song that shows just what a fantastic voice he has. I hope he keeps it in his set for the forthcoming tour. Robin, that was the typo of all typo's. How could you mistake Santa's Little Helper with Satan's ? Cheers,
Theo
London, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 11:37:03 (BST)

James can't log on to www.org/~drz/tom.leher - Is the URL correct?
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 09:40:47 (BST)

finally before i go to work this monday morning, the overuse of the word 'really' at 7:59 was possibly freudian but not intentional. It is just a word i overuse.
sonj <normal service can now resume>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:43:17 (BST)

the journals were of course L&C's
sonj 
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:30:18 (BST)

bogues, the image of neil in the young ones will help me smile next time. If that leads me on to think about 'bottom' i will have to sqirm behind the sofa and peek through my fingers. it is just tooooooo much!
sonj <must move all that junk out from behind the sofa before carol gets here ...>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:22:22 (BST)

oops, sadie may well be sassie but it isn't what i meant.
sonj <washing machine finally installed on victorian floor with 18 degree gradient thanks to alberr, a piece of wood and resolute revolt against the strict instructions of the manual>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 08:03:08 (BST)

I apologise for my over reaction last night. As Bogues said: luther is luther and you have to take the rough with the smooth. Pam's post in isolation was excellent. linked with Luther's 'really?' it just got right up my nose. The whole subject of American Indians is fascinating. Alberr is currently reading the journal's of Lewis and Clark which has a really excellent account of the Dog Feast. In respect of the menu, no different really to the Thanksgiving Turkey.
sonja p <sasie, you didn't say you had quinns when you were in the big brother house>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 07:59:41 (BST)

Bogues, because you are 1) anal and 2) a sick bastard.....(everyone needs a shot of R & B so come on down to my surgery..8 bars on the piano,(no piano)come on baby wont do you no harm, just want to shoot some rock n roll in your arm, Down to the Doctors...I got a bit excited as I thought you were starting a Dr Felgood quiz
Steve <thickgeordiebastard@blackpuddinginthesun>
every kind of vice its just merchandise, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 07:03:30 (BST)

I often get uncomfortable when people use the words communist or socialist, especially when many I have known they are land and property owners, invest money, pay taxes for the state, even pay wages...shoot me down please, but doom and gloom socialists are like doom and gloom the end is nigh - born again cretin jehovah burglars...create fear in the congregation and they buy it...socialism!!! it may be easy for individuals to demonstrate actions of socialism within capitalism, but who on here has 1) ever lived in a socalist state they enjoyed and where it offered all the benefits in question 2..2) can offer a honest and utopian example of common ownership that has brought wealth and health to its people..3)what type of socialism are we talking about here, socialism of the heart(and all the interpretations that brings)??..or working people owning the machinery that creates the wealth......are we not discontent active capitalists wishing for more?..does a fucked up capitalism constitute the need for a revolution, the majority of the population obviously think not...I dont see many communists/socialists down my neck of the woods or Sunderlain planning the revoluton in coffee clubs ..I, as George Orwell said want it sooner than later, but I don't think it's gonna happen.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
until youve had a peterlee pie you have never lived, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 06:50:51 (BST)

It wasn't a quiz, Steve, I really couldn't remember! However, now that you mention it I'm very certain that Johnny B Goode was on there - but why do the words of "I'm a hog for you baby" irresistibly come to mind? Maybe they were both on there? By the way, I've been uncontrollably muttering "I woke up on the floor, I asked you for some breakfast. You shoved me out the door, I jumped onto the late bus. I nearly missed (ba-boom) the early shift (ba-boom), dreaming in the morning of the things we did - back in the night..." for the past 12 hours. How do lyrics I haven't thought of in years lurk so complete in the back of my mind??
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 06:46:24 (BST)

-u
s
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 04:33:55 (BST)

on a more serious note, BOUGUES, was it Johhnny B Goode or Im a hog for ya Baby??..(I told you once, I told you twice, I even tried to tell you nice) who sang that?
Steve
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 04:33:29 (BST)

welcome to animal farm folks.....did someone mention Marcus Garvey? well don't otherwise I will have to mention the greatest dub reggae album of all time which was Burning Spear's Garvey's ghost in dub..so there..and I have nothing further to say as I am shallow vacuous but happy...oh yes, one thing, the world is always a better place to be, optimism is healthy, negativity comes cheap...Brian 'Nash the Slash'hehehehe brilliant
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
herbal tea bohemian revolutionery party, hic! - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 04:29:46 (BST)

There's a fantastic article about Native American tribes resisting taking on "the honor" of storing US nuclear waste in this great book Beyond Identity Politcs: Emerging Social Justice Movements in Communites of Color by John Anner see http://www.zmag.org/sep/beyondid.htm The book also includes a story of the victory of the Jessica McClintock sweatshop workers in S.F. and many other inspiring success stories.
Susan
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:45:42 (BST)

Bogues, re: Billy's stand on issues. Over the years, every time I've seen him I've been impressed with Bill's knowledge of current events--and non-events and his enlightening and hilarious commentary. During the whole OJ ridiculousness he talked about a case that Really deserved media attention--Mumia Abu-Jamal and there was an info. table at the show. Also I learned about the dockers strike that Luther was talking about at a B.B. show--Bill had us applaud the S.F. dockers for their solidarity and there was an info. table at that show too. He makes it so clear what a bunch of crap and smoke and mirrors we call "news" in this country. Really important for us USers to get a more objective view. Last time I saw him he pumped people up to go to Seattle to protest the WTO-- I know his prodding had a lot to do with me making the trip. After the show (his first in Santa Cruz-- PLEASE come back Bill--remember how much you liked our record shops!!!!) a group of us was chatting with him and he really regretted not mentioning the KPFA (Berkeley public radio) struggle--seemed almost embarrassed about it.
Susan
Santa Cruz, - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:25:19 (BST)

What has happened in California regarding Casinos is interesting. It has created a haves versus have-nots situation. In order to partake of the new wealth, Indians have to be registered with a tribe. Many Indians are not registered, for various reasons--their parents left the reservation for economic reasons, or they were removed to go to schools. Now these unregistered Indians want some of the wealth. They say they are poor, they belong to a certain tribe, and they have rights. The registered Indians don't want to accept them. My take is, this is the Indians business and they need to settle it themselves without white people coming in and taking sides. However, my opinion isn't firm, and I would be interested in hearing others'opinions.
carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:19:41 (BST)

To get back to a part of the recent topic, I would be interested to hear Pam and Luther's take on the impact of gambling in the sovereign nations (if that's the correct term). It has had a huge impact upon the Pequots of Connecticut near where my wife is from (the infamous Foxwoods casino), and much of it to their material good. But, for want of a better analysis, it doesn't "taste" good, does it? And what about the tribe whose leaders are offering to take high level nuclear waste? (Is that Utah? I can't recall...). Just what *is* the best way to compensate Native Americans for past (and present) injustices? Maybe you can point me to a good Web resource - I would be interested in knowing more.
Boguespierre
Yokohama, Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:11:36 (BST)

Which we should take at face value - thank you Luther for the clarification (I hate that I couldn't stick to my own rule of always assuming the best of intentions in any posting...). And thanks to Carol for bringing up a topic clearly worthy of discussion (incidentally, I see that that poll in the Chicago Tribune is standing at 95% pro reparations, for what it's worth).
Boguespierre
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 03:03:49 (BST)

Do you see the double standard I was talking about, Theo?
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:58:04 (BST)

Once again, for the record: All I did in my post at 21:09:02 was question Carol's assertion. That's all. Nothing else. I didn't say anything mean about Carol. I didn't say anything derisory. I simply questioned her assertion in a civil manner. Really.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:57:17 (BST)

I should point out that I still tend to agree with Sonja's belief that Luther's remark was meant derisively. It certainly *read* derisively. But Luther is what Luther is, and we need him here, so best not to fan the flames of antipathy. And I think Sonj has gone night-night...
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:51:36 (BST)

Are there any other apologies forthcoming? Sonja?
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:38:45 (BST)

My apologies to Luther if I read more into his questioning of Carol than was there. But one does tend to build up a picture of the character behind the bare text of the Guestbook, which rathers colours it. In the case of Luther saying "Really?" to Carol I can't help but get an image of Rik from the Young Ones with hands on hips berating Neil. Probably just a reflection of my own deep-rooted psychoses...
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:31:38 (BST)

Regarding Jeff's somewhat rhetorical point below "What this has to do with Billy Bragg I have NO idea..." - which US political issues HAS BB taken a stance on in the past? I can't think of anything in his music (possible exceptions: 'Help Save the Youth of America' & 'I Dreamed I saw Phil Ochs Last Night'), but I have seen frequent references here to his support of US workers' rights. Can anyone educate me?
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 02:23:20 (BST)

Many of the American Indians in Oklahoma were Cherokee. They were originally from Georgia (I think) and were forced off their land and driven to Oklahoma. Many of them died along the way. This is the legendary Trail of Tears. The Cherokee owned African slaves. Nothing is simple in history. Many American Indians and African Americans suffer economic and racial injustices to this day.
carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:58:36 (BST)

Jeff's last posting reminded me of some interesting passages in the Joe Klein biography of Woody Guthrie about Native Americans in the area Woody grew up. I think I recall that it mentioned that some of these actually owned black slaves (presumably during the first half of the 19th Century), though I don't claim that as fact until I get a chance to reread the book. I suppose we might also find cases of African-Americans oppressing Native Americans, though I can't think offhand where that might have happened. Not to try and negate any points made below, but once again nothing is simple...
Boguespierre
Japan - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:38:25 (BST)

Just got done watching "Children of the Revolution"--any idea from where to obtain the soundtrack?
Marc <marc@mcn.net>
Bozeman, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:34:16 (BST)

Five kids in one day?? Quins...?
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:29:17 (BST)

Pam and Luther, please don't stop contributing, I'm getting a real education here. Also, Sonj, please keep us up to date about your defunct appliances, its very reassuring to know ones not alone.
Sadie <washing machine, tumble dryer, microwave plus five kids in one day.>
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 01:13:27 (BST)

Carol, that Federal refusal to pass anti-lynching laws is exactly the kind of public policy decsion I am talking about. As for the indians, Im not so sure about wether this policy was "genocidal". I know in Ohio, during the Indian wars of the 1790s (the US sufferred two big defeats in that one), and the later one during 1812, the US approached the indians as if they where sovereign powers, signing treatys and establishing treaty boundarys over which white settlement was not to cross. But then there was the case of the Cherokees; the Supreme Court ruled their removal illegal, but Andy Jackson removed 'em anyway. I think reparations would be due in that case. Also policies like sticking indian kids in boarding schools to make them "white" and the tribal termination policy where a form of cultural genocide.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:53:08 (BST)

Luther and I had no idea we were writing these posts at the same, nor did we even talk about what had been posted. In case anyone wondered. No wonder we get accused of being each other.
Pam
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:49:19 (BST)

*sigh* Who did I confront? Who did I attack? Criminy people why do you read everything damn thing I say (or Luther for that matter) in the worst possible light? Now try reading what I said again with a matter-of fact, explanatory, non-accusatory tone and see how it changes. I give up. There is no pleasing you guys. I've had it. I told Luther the other day that I was going to have to quit participating on the GB because it was too judgmental but decided to try once more being more careful of my wording. This place isn't worth the aggravation of having to defend everything I say because you think I am being argumentative. Fuck this. Is that argumentative enough for you?
Pam
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:41:38 (BST)

You know folks, this is yet another example of "We hate Luther, and so we read everything his writes in the worst possible light. We refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt." All I did in my post at 21:09:02 was question Carol's assertion. That's all. Nothing else. I didn't say anything mean about Carol. I didn't say anything derisory. I simply questioned her assertion in a civil manner. And y'all immediately jumped on me. Fuck the lot of you. Seriously. Fuck you.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:38:31 (BST)

Jeff--for one thing, the US Congress refused to pass laws against lynching. Purely for political reasons. Also, the mobs were often led by off-duty sherrifs, and police departments looked the other way and did not enforce the laws that were obviously being broken. Of course, the genocide of Native American tribes was US policy, whether openly stated or not. It wouldn't kill the US to give reparations. It seems only just. And it would actually set a precedent--perhaps the public wouldn't condone stuff like police beatings, etc.
Carol
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:13:58 (BST)

Bogues: I am sure there are!
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:12:22 (BST)

sonj: will have to explain Bernie Grants stance on this to me one day - I am (genuinely) naive of his opinions
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:10:20 (BST)

Brian - I am sure there are Native Americans who would be interested in discussing repatriation of whites to Europe...
Bogues
- Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:07:21 (BST)

...and before anyone gets the wrong idea - I was just making a comment and not condoning any of these beliefs
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:03:31 (BST)

sorry - did confuse/mis-read reparation with Re-patriation - my mistake
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 14, 2000 at 00:00:26 (BST)

OK Awready lets get beyond the personal "you forgot the Indians! No I didnt!" stuff...it sounds like the worst sort of PC arguement. My two cents on this is that I used to think this reperations concept was nuts. But, thinking about it, a precedent has been set with the Japanese itnernees. So some form of reparations is worth considering. I do think we need to get beyond things like southern lynchings and California "indian hunts"; deplorable as these where these where the actions of individuals and mobs, possibly with some low level government collusion. If we are talking about the Federal Government making reparations we need to look at what public policy was towards the groups in question and the consequences of that policy. Thats what reparations should be about. What this has to do with Billy Bragg I have NO idea....
Jeff <dwellejt@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:59:55 (BST)

(With heavy heart...) Luther - your attitude towards Carol is incivil and disappointing to me. She had raised an excellent topic for debate, to which both Pam and yourself had important contributions to make, but you chose to cheapen it with petty (and, for once, incorrect) point-making. I have gritted my teeth and avoided this kind of posting until now because I know they can just fan flames further, but you really must reconsider your behaviour. As much as anything, your rudeness devalues the excellence of the depth of knowledge you bring to this forum.
Boguespierre
Japan - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:42:20 (BST)

Bogues, your knowlege of US history is pretty good. BTW, the most famous US "Back to Africa" movement was Marcus Garveys', back in the 1920s. It is sometimes considered the precursor of the "black pride" or "black power" culural movement of the late 1960s.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:41:33 (BST)

Brian (20:25) - were you misreading 'reparation' as 'repatriation'? I think even the right wing crazies like the NF only considered this for immigrants to the UK who had been there for less than a generation. Much of the ethnic community in the UK is now already far too settled (if not integrated) to make repatriation practical at any price. African-Americans even more so, since all have been in the Americas for many generations. There was the back-colonization of Liberia in the last century, but that would hardly attract anyone to "return" to Africa. I recall that there *were* members of the African-American community as recently as the 1970s (maybe later) espousing a return to Africa, but this has certainly never entered the mainstream.
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:31:05 (BST)

I have heard Brother Jahara speak about reparations and he specifically mentioned reparations for American Indians. However, when I visited the web site of the organization that he belongs to, I couldn't find a statement to this effect. If anyone is interested, here is the web address: http://www.ncobra.com
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:17:52 (BST)

I agree with what both Pam and Luther are saying and I can't for the of me see what their point against me is. Taking one statement without considering the whole context of the discussion is an unfair way to talk to people and only makes them angry and defensive. Pam, you should know better. In fact, I think comparing the terrorism against both American Indians and African Americans is interesting, because lynch mobs terrorized Black people in the South mainly but not entirely, and lynch mobs terrorized American Indians in the West, mainly but not entirely. Therefore, we can see that this kind of terror is widespread across the US and the South cannot just be blamed. The current movement for reparations, by the way, includes American Indians as well as African Americans.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:01:41 (BST)

Brian, Bernie Grant had some ideas on the subject too :)
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:56:46 (BST)

It is such a shame, when you and Luther both have a lot of knowledge to impart about all the ethnic groups in america, that instead of just developing the subject Luther's contribution to the discussion was a derisive remark, directed at carol, implying that she had not considered the position of the american indians. This clearly wasn't true. Why are you so confrontational???
sonj <pissed off>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:52:22 (BST)

I believe the statement at issue though, was "but African Americans have had to endure the kind of terrorism that no other US ethnic minority has had to endure" and not whether both deserved reparations. It is true that many Americans think of slavery as the worst injustice ever committed by this country, forgetting about the stealing of land and culture, introduction of lethal diseases, and forcing of Native Americans to accept the reservation system which has kept them in poverty for so many generations. I don't romanticize the American Indian way of life or believe in the concept of the "Noble Savage," but I do believe that they are too often ignored when one looks at history and how the government has treated them. While most often we think of such cases as the massacre at Wounded Knee and the occupation of the Pine Ridge Oglala Sioux Reservation which ultimately resulted in the arrest of Leonard Peltier, there are thousands of other examples in which the government refused to recognize the Native American's right to self-governance. Even now the government continues to refuse to allow tribes to use their land as they see fit and interferes with tribal laws. If I had time I could go on and on about this. Before Selma Walker, founder of the Native American Indian Center here and elder among the Oglala Sioux, died a few years ago, she taught me much about the problems her tribe faces not only on the reservation but also off it as individuals and families try to live apart from their extended families and cultures. It's truly heart breaking. The historical treatment of Native Americans, including the systematic wiping out of complete tribes, is certainly as bad as or worse than the treatment of slaves.
Pam
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:37:24 (BST)

Carol did indeed mention American Indians in a couple of her earlier statements Luther.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:35:33 (BST)

Luther--I stated that American Indians and African Americans BOTH deserved reparations. Are you reading carefully? You may add American Indians to my statement. Instead of trying to put me down, you should state that you think American Indians endured horrible terrorism, too. I would agree.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:29:44 (BST)

Carol asserted: "African Americans have had to endure the kind of terrorism that no other US ethnic minority has had to endure." Really? Shall we examine the treatment of American Indians?
Luther Gaylord
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:09:02 (BST)

as a point of interest: re-patriation (even voluntary with finacial re-numeration) in UK has different connetations as this is mostly championed by white far-right polital parties (BNP, NF, etc) as a way of "sending them back" - I know this has little or no relation to the USA situation but I just thought I would bring it up
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:25:21 (BST)

Not to make this a two way conversation between me and Jeff, but African Americans have had to endure the kind of terrorism that no other US ethnic minority has had to endure--brutal lynchings up through the 1950's in the South, where mobs would not only go after men and women, but also children. There is no way the US as a whole can buy their way out of the guilt that white Americans and the US government share. But recompense will help. I know this sounds very much like wishy washy liberal guilt. But I don't feel guilty because the US criminal justice system is racist--I have done things to stop this. The past is horrible, and I have benefited from it in an historical way.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:24:24 (BST)

Wow, after linking to that Trib site I see its Bobby Rush who is proposing this. Bobby Rush was one of the few surviving Chicago Black Panthers and is now in Congress. But Carol is right. The Union had an opportunity for land reform in the South ("40 acres and a mule") and blew it, leaving a form of debt peonage ("sharecropping") instead, and then topping it off by permitting Jim Crow laws as well as various forms of disenfranchisement. I think there are some good arguements for reparations from the era AFTER slavery, too, but I doubt you'll ever see it.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:15:31 (BST)

I think if we are going to pay reparations to blacks I think this also needs to involve a porportional contribution from Great Britain (slave trade prior to the Revolution), Spain and France (slave trade to Louisiana and Puerto Rico). This is really an international issue.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:04:01 (BST)

I think the interesting question is how one would calculate the amount of reparations due.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:01:25 (BST)

I know some African Americans who are very radical and actually want parts of the south. Others would be happy with some kind of monetary payment. Japanese have been given reparations for being put in concentration camps in World War II and having their property confiscated. So it is not unprecedented. Most African Americans I know do not want to go live in the South; they quite like living in the Northern part of the country. It is all complicated. The site I mentioned just asks if reparations should be paid--not how they should be paid. A movement begins when the public puts pressure on legislatures to do something. Then the debate really begins. I personally feel that the US is guilty of horrible crimes against Africans and American Indians, and that recompense of some sort is in order. I have ancestors who were white slaves, but because of the color of their skin they were able to buy their way out of indenture and to blend with the free community. It was much more horrible for American Indians and American Blacks.
Carol
San Franicsco, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 19:12:09 (BST)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sept 29 Portland: Aladdin, 30 Seattle: Moore,Oct 1 Vancouver: Vogue,3 SF: Filmore, 4 LA: Ford, 6 Minneapolis: First Avenue, 7 Chicago: Park West, 8 Toronto: Music Hall, 10 Somerville: Somerville Theatre, 11,12 NYC: Irving Plaza, 14 Towson,MD.: Recher Theatre, 15 Washington D.C.: 9:30 Club, 16 Philadelphia: Theatre of the Living Arts. Subject to Change. . - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 13:39:30 (BST)
lazz
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 18:38:47 (BST)

James - it's never black and white, is it? Although I can't agree with all he says, Norman Finkelstein has been raising some very valid points about the "Holocaust industry". Did you know Lawrence Eagleburger pulls down $300k a year chairing a commission on Holocaust claims? Now find a camp survivor who has received even a fraction of that sum in total. There is sadly a great risk that the pursuit of reparations to the African American community could end up going down the same road, like the pursuit of Big Tobacco - noses in the trough for politicians and lawyers. But I think the existence of the debate has to be a healthy thing.
Boguespierre <Time for bed in this time zone>
Yokohama, Japan - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:25:08 (BST)

For anyone interested in Bill Hicks I recommend that you check out the following links; http://www.paxacidus.com/otb/bill_hicks.html http://www.crg.cs.nott.ac.uk/~imt/bh/hicks.html http://www.billhicks.com/darktimes/ ... See ya!
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:16:57 (BST)

The issue of reparations for damages to African Americans is a very complicated one. There is a simialar movement to get compensation for Jewish slave laborers during during the Secong World War. The Jewsish Community is divided in that many feel that you can never place a monetary amount on the suffering many had to endure. Plus, once reparations are paid, the other side can now say "its over, we can forget it ever happened" Many don't ever want to let the other side forget what they did and constantly remind the world, it can happen again.
James
New Paltz, NY, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:14:52 (BST)

Carol - worthwhile I agree. I certainly don't mean to unduly disparage anyone here (including myself) for our incomplete ideological purity. And it's always a pleasure to see a real political issue raised...
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:11:16 (BST)

African Americans in the US are trying to get reparations for being kidnapped, brutalized and enslaved. Although slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule at the end of the Civil War, few received anything. The Chicago Tribune has an opinion poll where you can vote on whether they deserve reparations or not. Here is the address: www.chicagotribune.com/go/reparations. I know this is a a very wishy wasy socialist action, but an African American friend asked me to vote. Sometimes wishy washy is better than nothing.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Franfcisco, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 17:04:26 (BST)

When will BB next bee on BBgb,anyone?
Ronnie ov Brum
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 16:59:50 (BST)

I agree completely
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 16:07:38 (BST)

Richie (to get back to the question...) - I think you know yourself that if you strongly feel a need to "defend your country" at a time of no particular imminent threat then you're going to have a hard time justifying the label "hardline socialist". But you won't necessarily be alone! There aren't many on this list who would claim that title, fewer still who can justify it against detailed scrutiny. In reality we're all wishy-washy socialists, with varying degrees of wishy and washy. Personally, I'm happy with that - a hard line in anything to me reflects an inability to reason. I would suggest you set aside both the patriotic and the political labelling and decide whether your career decision and its implications (in particular, implicit support for any and all actions by British armed forces) is consistent with your personal beliefs. But don't kill yourself agonising that joining up automatically makes you a baby killer - and take some comfort from the fact that about 20 years ago HM Forces (briefly) had one S.W.Bragg taking the Queen's shilling....
Boguespierre
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:56:49 (BST)

bye bye John!
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:36:18 (BST)

...anyway... what sort of questions that?
Brian
London, Uk - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:34:31 (BST)

Are you saying i am being impolite?
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:33:06 (BST)

A polite one - try it one day!
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:31:19 (BST)

What sort of an answer is that Brian?
John
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:26:17 (BST)

anyway John - where you from? you a fellow Londoner?
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:22:30 (BST)

what do you think?
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:20:04 (BST)

.. or... by Enemies of the State... we mean patients in Serbian hospitals or Iraqi children
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:17:58 (BST)

touche
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:17:57 (BST)

Enemies of the State?? The Will Smith film maybe crap but its hardly gonna overthrow the government
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:11:18 (BST)

Brian.Defend from who? Enemies of the state spring to mind.
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:07:05 (BST)

...also... defend from who?
Brian <a cog in the machine>
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:02:54 (BST)

Richie: I think you know what it is that you really want to do
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:00:52 (BST)

sonj: you have made my day - sitting here at work, bored, have a look at the BBgb "I thought you said "I should be Peters and Lee'" - is this a new type of rhyming slang - Peters and Lee = Tree - I think its great that rubbish 70's groups are used as terms of abuse - you bunch of New Seekers :)
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:51:57 (BST)

Richie, what do you think you should do?
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:40:43 (BST)

No need to elaborate then!
jonboy
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:36:00 (BST)

is there any 'unofficial' rumor that Billy will be in the States this fall? We're already halfway through August. His tour lists up to August 10th. Any news would be appreciated!
mark
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:35:24 (BST)

can anyone help me please cause im really conffused.i have just sighned up for the royal air force and think that it is my duty to serve my country.the real problem is this.i really believe in the words of billy bragg and i cosider myself to be a hard line socialsit.is it wrong to want to join the armed services and defend your country if you think its right and also does this mean that im not as socialist as i believe i am???please if anyone can help me i would be really greatful.
richie <dicki1978@yahoo.com>
london, uk - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:35:10 (BST)

Would you care to elaborate?
jonboy
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:32:34 (BST)

sorry i misread that, i thought you said i should be peters and lee. Only one guinness too..
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:31:26 (BST)

that doesn't sound very polite jonboy
sonj <ok, tell me what else i could be doing with my life at half past two on a mugy sunday>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:29:50 (BST)

sonj.i think they'd be good on "stars in there eyes"as Peters and Lee"
jonboy
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:23:04 (BST)

brian you were tooo easy on yourself!
not me again <or not 'her' again if you're luther>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:10:50 (BST)

Billy and Boris on HIGNFY could be excellent! Or even on 'never mind the buzzcocks'.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:07:11 (BST)

I think Boris was being facetious. As I said, he wasn’t at his best. Tory AH that he is, he can be very witty.
sonj <still here, having first guinness of the day. >
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:03:43 (BST)

i think you are half right but you dont really know what it is you want to say.i think boris johson said whaty he saw ,which he would if h'ed never been there before.what he said was only bein honest.
paulette-jo
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 13:55:20 (BST)

jonboy: I saw the Bill and Boris show. Bill was being, as he asks us to be on here, polite to Boris who was not at his best, or exactly making a point, just carrying on about the amount of money involved in running glastonbury which was supposed to prove it was a capitalist venture. From the responses Bill makes on here, and from my experiences of meeting him, Bill never avoids responding to a 'difficult' question.
sonj <if i can get alberr's nose out of the book we ARE going out ..>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 13:01:08 (BST)

I have got to learn to type one day - that last message was for Jon and it should have said "not entirely fair"
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:53:46 (BST)

while I, on the whole, agree with you that it is all to easy to just discuss things with people who agree with you instead of including people who may have complete opposite opinions. I think the two examples given were entirely fair - the two shows were primarily entertainment shows and in the Glasto example a 5 minute light-hearted piece about clashing worlds and cultures. You do have a valid point that if someone has an opinion that we find unexeptable we tend to just dismiss them as ignorant (and both side of political ideology does it) and in the end this breeds contempt and even violence
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:52:09 (BST)

What got up nose was when BB took Boris Johnson to Glast this year.At the end of the TV bit Johnson said it was a victory for capitalism or words to that effect,BB tried to laugh it off and made a couple of snides then it finished.It seemed to me that he had, if not a point then a point worth listening to.I then saw Johnson on Mark Lammars' show on thurs when he made a valid point about the racist overtones of the european commmunity in relation to being 'white psuedo christian' i.e. exclusion of eastern europeans.Lammar, seeing he had a valid point, made a joke much in the same way BB did at Glast.My point is i know Boris J is a tory A.H. but if he(or anyone else) makes one or two decent points worth talking about for the good of the whole why not say so?Ifade.
jonboy_31
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:41:49 (BST)

i just asked alberr what his new book was about, He pointed to an illustration of a north american indian 'dog eating party'. He swears he hasn't been looking at the BBgb today. Spooky ...
sonj <addicts of the world unite>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:38:03 (BST)

that's ok jonboy, stay around and keep asking.
sonj 
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 12:00:19 (BST)

Steve, you appear to have a good gasp of it already. My own theory is that America's two biggest problems are Racism and Objectivity and they prevent the country from becomng progressive. Anyhow, you can look at this site, www.commondreams.org if you want to really see whats goiong on in the US.
James <Dothey still say "Wog"in the UK>
New Paltz, NY, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:57:19 (BST)

Sonj,thank you for enlightening me or i see your point.The way in which i worded my question now seems inflammatory which it was'nt really meant to be.Anyway to me BB is all about asking.
jonboy_31
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:51:56 (BST)

so... I went onto Napster yesterday - oh my god - I was like child in a sweet shop - was able to track down a Nash The Slash 12" b-side that a friend of my brother had and that I have no heard in 20 years
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:36:57 (BST)

steve, did i send you 'ballad of john axon'? how is your cataloguing going?
sonj <sid deserves the stepdaughter from hell>
ambridge, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:26:42 (BST)

Bogues, was it Johnny B Goode or Im a Hog For Ya Baby I can't get enough of your love....dont start me
Steve
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:23:04 (BST)

hi John - welcome to the BBgb
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:19:21 (BST)

I see what this is now , im not very good with compters.(soz)anyroad iread that thing about bb and socialistsor he's alrite.i remeber when he started his 2.99 or less thing.it wasok but i was only on 15 a week so i waited till 1988 tobuy brewwing up second h.for aquid.ah saturday boy.
john
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 11:15:46 (BST)

Hi all
Brian
London, Uk - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:59:34 (BST)

Good Morning John. It's about whatever you want s'longas your (reasonably )polite to the other posters.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:59:08 (BST)

whats this thing all about ? good morning to u if your reading this message anyroad.
john
Eng. - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:46:49 (BST)

Steve - my copy of 'Stupidity' is mouldering away along with all the rest of my vinyl in a cardboard box somewhere in England, but I still have a tape of it I made for the car (somewhere...). I recall that there was a free 7" with the album with a live 'Riot in Cellblock Number Nine' - what was the other side?
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:25:12 (BST)

http://www.drfeelgood.de/...if you have a sense of humour visit the feelgoods web site.Bogues stupidity is out on cd Dr Feelgood own all their own back catalogue and have aquired Stupidity from EMI(I think)...they own and release all the albums on Grand records in 107a High Street Canvey Island, Essex.QUIZ what was unique, and still is, about Dr Feelgoods 'Stupidity' getting to No 1
Steve <getalife@FEELGOODFAN>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 10:10:24 (BST)

Being an avid collector of anything feelgood....is anybody in the mood for a top five Dr Feelgood song list.....no oh ok then..(:(...... 1) Back in the Night.. 2) Baby Jane.. 3) I want to make violent Love to you.. 4) She does it right.. 5) Milk & Alcohol.. bubbling under..Down by the Jetty Blues...if anyone drastically needs any feelgood tapes, Im happy to send them if don't mind waitng as Im hopelessly disorganised..best Dr feelgood gig,,,the Blues Celler Club in Newcastle On Tyne..jumpin
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:58:18 (BST)

It has always been my ambition to own a white suit like Lee Brilleaux had on the 1975 tour - I think there were things living on it. Listening to 'Stupidity' makes me 17 again (alarming thought).
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:57:16 (BST)

Bogues, Dr Feegood with or without Wilco were/are fabulous...Saw them at the beginning 75,76,77,81,85,89,94,97..with all the stage diving(before Kurt Cobain was even born), last gig I saw in uk was the feelgoods at Kendall arts centre in the lakes for their 25th anniversary, I got a postcard from the memorial hospital from Lee Brilleaux just before he died, a great great man...good memories
Steve <She's a windup@roxette>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:48:55 (BST)

Wood Stain? Work Sheet?? Wind Storm???
Bogues
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:42:34 (BST)

bogues.. Ahhh, sniff ...every cloud has a silver lining and now there you are nattering away in Japanese.
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:40:28 (BST)

oops that should be W*** S****
sonj
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:37:36 (BST)

James, i think my favourite insult comes from the same community, including Brixton. W*** S*** doesn't of course apply to anybody on here, not even Luther unless he is very very horrible.
sonj <time to make alberr's breakfast, little hausfrau that i am>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:36:12 (BST)

Well hello again from a Japan that can primarily be characterised as rainy, as Typhoon No 9 of the season sluggishly tracks up the Pacific coast. The forecast is for 4 inches of rain is this vicinity during the next 24 hours which is quite enough, thank you, but pales against the 12 inches PER HOUR that you get when hit full on. Sorry to be egocentric once again, but there's a nice section of Billy-chat in the concert from 1985 that I put online (presumably from just before 'St Swithin's Day', but I may be wrong) which goes "Until yesterday, the one thing I missed about England was the rain. Not anymore. Yesterday I got soaking wet. Right down to my Hush Puppies". Well exactly 15 years later nothing has changed. Another anecdote - when I saw Billy the following year in Tokyo, me and a friend got chatting with him after the gig, and he kindly invited us to a post-gig party due to take place after Wilco Johnson played in Tokyo a few days later. That gig too was marvellous (I'm sure there must be some Feelgood fans out there who remember Wilco's onstage 'spastic duck walk' routine, which he continued on to his Solid Senders days), but my woefully inadequate Japanese failed to persuade the girl on the backstage door to let us through to our promised sojourn with the stars. I think that was when I vowed (a la Scarlett O'Hara) to "never be tongue-tied again" and really got working on my Japanese. Sadly, by the time Billy returned to Japan in 1989 I was back in Blighty, and to the best of my knowledge he's never been back since... D'you think that's a sad enough story to get an invite for a cheese sandwich after the Boston gig in October?
Boguespierre <Soaking wet, right through to my Topsiders>
Yokohama, Japan - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:31:37 (BST)

Lisa and Les have made me next of kin to their infamous hound Mr Magoo. On that basis i suppose i don't suppose i can eat dog. I will not be answering the phone while they are on holiday in case it is the kennels demanding i remove the wayward beast before he eats his way out.
sonj 
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:30:04 (BST)

When i left Chi High i swore that no child of mine would ever have to go there. Lisa left there in about 1990 with two A's and a B. Maybe it is better now steve. I am sure you and hester will both do very well pete,
sonj 
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 09:25:38 (BST)

Bloody Hell PeteW, which school did you go to??..I went to school probably 15 miles from you, and the teachers I encountered were racist facist thugs not fit to be in charge of a Rocking Horse, let alone a human being, except for maybe three in 10 years..Havelock secondary Sunderland, burn the bastards down
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 07:30:52 (BST)

Yeah, we have great air here. All the nasty fumes just blow away to haunt some pour souls in the valley! Ah, life on the Monterey Bay...Pretty amazing that your daughter found a job here... We're overeducated and underemployed with housing costs going ever upward.(Bedroom community for "dot-communists"--and why that label is sticking is beyond me--they couldn't be further from communist!) Someone referred to my fair town recently as "Silicon Beach"--Ouch!
susan
Santa Cruz, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 05:45:55 (BST)

Pete: I wasn't suggesting anything about you. I was trying to say how my Asian friends in San Francisco would feel. I would never accuse you of racism. The dog story is interesting. I think the only animal I have refused to eat is a dolphin, because in my heart I have this thing about dolphins being human. I guess I would refuse to eat a human, too. I walked through Chinatown today, and I think I will become a vegetarian. The live animals flapping in their little boxes awaiting death is just too much for me. I won't become vegan though. Derik, when you come next week, be forewarned. Chinatown is fascinating, but it takes a strong stomach. And Susan from Santa Cruz, when my daughter moved there, she couldn't believe how clean it smelled. We are used to everything smelling like garbage here in North Beach/Chinatown where I live and where she lived until she got a job in Santa Cruz last year.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 04:49:53 (BST)

Kim, have you read Marguerite Duras? If you're interested in French female writers, I reckon she's one of the best.
Carsten
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:29:37 (BST)

I was taught "what did you learn in school today" by my mam when i was about 6 or 7. In my experience almost all teachers I've come across have been pretty left-wing, if not out-and-out marxists; the more distasteful views i have held at various points came instead from religious school assemblies, Scouting for Boys and, uh, Blue Peter....
pete w <apologiestotheamericanpeople>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:05:37 (BST)

James I wish I understood American Politics, send me to a site that explains it in apples and oranges
Steve
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:02:11 (BST)

Jonboy and Paulette-jo have a point, I cant deny people talk good socialism,few live it.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:00:50 (BST)

Yes, it was Simone Weil. Thank you, Carol. I kept coming up with Edith Stein, the Jewish convert to Catholicism who died in Auschwitz and has been canonized... Okay, the other Simone, de Beauvoir, Sartre's long-time companion, talked about her affair with Nelson Algren in "The Mandarins" but I was personally too bored with the novel to finish it. He was rather macho compared to the European intellectuals she was used to hanging around, and she clearly found it charmante. I find her feminist critiques of society to be much more engaging than her fiction.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:50:54 (BST)

Steve has a point and to make it worse, The Democrats are trying to out republilcan the republicans with a bigger convention and the Liberman nonsence What they should be doing is trying to unmask them.
Jmaes <Makes you wanna Ralph>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:39:42 (BST)

Bob, What's "remebering," you idiot!?
Bob
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:35:14 (BST)

and we whine about Tony Blair?
steve
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:34:00 (BST)

Jeff: Sorry, I was wrong. They were never married. I guess this is what I was remebering: "In them [her love letters]she calls herself his wife and wishes only to be in his arms." http://www.bbc.co.uk/works/s4/beauvoir/
Bob
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:33:03 (BST)

Please skip this if your not interested im not forcing anyone to read it..it just amuses me in a tragic way.... Can One Ignore The God Issue During This Campaign?.... Don Peterson forwarded me a spam about George Bush (below), highlighting what a poor record the State of Texas has in several crucial social areas. Though the spam leaves out some key information, reading it caused me to challenge my current view that arguing whether or not a god exists is a stupid reason to get into a fight. (My temptation is to carry this over into my politics.) Please read the following exchange and tell me whether it's even possible to set aside the religious rhetoric that dominates this election, and decide whether I can even support either candidate based solely upon their records in other issues?....The State of Texas, under the leadership of Governor George W. Bush, is ranked:.. 50th in spending for teachers' salaries... 49th in spending on the environment..... 48th in per-capita funding for public health... 47th in delivery of social services.... 42nd in child-support collections.... 41st in per-capita spending on public education... and ... 5th in percentage of population living in poverty... 1st in air and water pollution.. 1st in percentage of poor working parents without insurance.. 1st in percentage of children without health insurance.. 1st in executions (avg. 1 every 2 weeks for Bush's 5 years)... Just think of what he could do for the country if he were president....Before I get into it, a case can be made that such policies are completely in line with some views of Christianity...... (Former Interior Secretary James Watt and, to a lesser extent, former President RONALD REAGAN come to mind, openly suggesting that Jesus was on the brink of his long-awaited return to solve various problems, so we need not concern ourselves with them now.) And Bill Clinton ran on the poverty angle, claiming experience in grappling with these problems. Another point is that even though he is the Governor, he is still just one man and he's been there for only five years. Even for in Texas, it is quite an accomplishment for one man to do this much damage......... .. In Election 2000, we truly have a situation where, as Los Angeles Times Syndicate columnist Cal Thomas pointed out on August 11, 2000, the candidates appear to be saying: "My God Can Beat Your God."...whats going on in america??
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
land of nod, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:32:19 (BST)

A regular guy, heck, whats the english translation for this...a bloke? Well, maybe Algren wasn't so regular nor was he likley a "card carrying" socialist...more like that "socialism of heart" Billy Bragg sings about. No, I dont think he was actually married to Simone D B.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:25:56 (BST)

Pete W. That was not directed towards you. Robin and I posted from our experience in Brooklyn. The term may have a different meaning in the U.K. Words and phrases change in different location. Example: In Jamaica one of the worst insults you can call someone is a "Blood Clot" I doubt anyone who has any contact with the West Indian Community would be aware of that. (include Bly Street Toronto, East Flatbush Brooklyn and possibly Brixton London)
James
New Paltz, NY - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:13:56 (BST)

Carol, you mean teachers in the usa tell lies? :)I just listened to "What did you learn in school today" for the first time , and think it's a great song, very true as well, as alas there are too few socialists in the teaching profession. - Strange coincidence also: Both Simone Weil and Tom Lehrer (German for 'teacher', btw.) who got a mention here were both school teachers...
Carsten <g'night&Ifuckofftobed>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:13:06 (BST)

Jeff: Fling??? Weren't they married?
Bob
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:12:10 (BST)

What the hell Jeff is "a regular guy"? (Probably someone I wouldn't want to 'hang out with'...)
Carsten <waypastmybedtimenow,sonj,oichemhaith,goodnight!>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 02:00:05 (BST)

My god, talk about opening a can of worms... however the blame lies with me for my incoherent and unintelligible posting. In my experience the word "chinky" refers only to the restaurant/takeaway from which the tastiest chips originate, and *not* to the people who run it or even the ethnicity of the cuisine. As in, "I'm going down the chinky"... Then again, until the reaction here, I never realised that the whole alsatian-in-the-fridge tale could be used as a weapon of racism rather than an innocent urban myth (I have no qualms about eating dog btw, except my own dog who is pretty danm cute)...
pete w <resultsin5days>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:55:28 (BST)

Simone De Bo-vee-air (sorry) also had an fling with that great Chicago writer Nelson Algren (who was at one time a socialist but always a regular guy). More on Algren****http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/nalgren.htm
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:41:43 (BST)

This web site is a socialist community, off line, we correspond and willingly share our tapes, films information dreams for the collective good. the outside world is what it is and we do the best we can to influence or change it or at least not have it change us.
james
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:40:49 (BST)

having got that off my chest! ...paulette-jo, welcome to the BBgb. If you hang around you will see Bill does indeed come on here and answer questions himself. If you missed the last session scroll down to - Thursday, July 27, 2000 at 18:37:59 (BST)
sonj <carsten, it's past your bedtime.>
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:21:42 (BST)

This in defense of socialists who live in the world: Billy's website is so full of so much--political news, musical news, information about his tours, stuff for sell, and also stuff he is giving away for free. Why would anyone complain. I would call the guy a saint, except that I doubt he would want to be called such a thing.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:15:18 (BST)

I meant that Simone was an anorexic. She was not a disease. She suffered from a disease.
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:13:16 (BST)

Kim, are you referring to Simone Weil, the Jewish philosopher who converted to Catholicism in 1943? Besides being a brilliant philosopher, it seems she was an anorexia and self-starvation contributed to her death. Or are you referring to Simone de Beauvoir, Sartre's lover who is a leading feminist thinker and novelist?
Carol
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:12:05 (BST)

Kim, Simone de Beauvoir peut-être?
Carsten
- Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 01:10:12 (BST)

paulette-jo, Billy Bragg earns his living as a singer song writer. That involves people paying to see him ( unless it's at a political gig ) and buying his Cd's and stuff. How do you earn your living? Socialism is an economic system based on social ownership. Billy Bragg lives in england which has a capitalist economy. One of the ultimate aims of a socialist or communist society is ''from each according to his ability, to each according to his need'. Billy certainly gives his best whenever he performs!
sonja <braggpuss@hotmail.com>
now have jelly from the co-op. luckily i still jave a bit of stoli left, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 00:49:15 (BST)

www.org/~drz/tom.leher there is a Tom Leher web site with lots of information.
James
New Paltz, NY, - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 00:44:14 (BST)

Trying to think of the name of the 20th c. female French socialist writer, also a Catholic, who was involved in the labor movement. Someone on the guestbook last year said she idolized this woman as a teen-ager.
Kim
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 22:43:08 (BST)

That's very possible, Pam. I was organizing for the UFW back then, and we routinely attended a lot of rallies. Many of them really do blend in together so I can't remember the exact cause anymore.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 22:35:03 (BST)

Robin, might it have been the rally for Salvador Allende? That was one that Ochs organized and while I'd have to look up the date, it was towards the end of his life.
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 22:12:36 (BST)

i spose you've got a point jon, how do you consolidate those two apparently opposed veiws,billy? socialism and making money from us?
paulette-jo
reno.Nev, usa - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 21:05:48 (BST)

Then I saw Ochs in 1975, but it wasn't at the War Is Over rally. It was either something for Puerto Rican Independence or AIM. 25 years was a long time ago.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:54:16 (BST)

There is Power in a Union: Thursday night the Golden Gate Chapter of the Labor Party was meeting at Local 6 (ILWU). Also meeting there were the newly organized bicycle messengers' union (ILWU). A female messenger parked her bike out front (locked of course) and shortly before the meeting was to start, someone came running into the building shouting that a bicycle was being stolen. The woman rushed out and said, "Oh no, that was mine and it's gone." I stupidly sat there thinking about Bicycle Thief and that since she made a living with her bicycle, this was a disaster. However, the other messengers rushed outside and someone hopped on a motorcycle and rode after the thief who abandoned the bicycle and ran off. Solidarity pays off--the woman got her bike back and the meeting continued--lots of members attending, and they are soooo cooool!
Carol
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:28:33 (BST)

Why does Bragg just use his ingratiating website to sell more of his psuedo socialist products ?
jonboy <jonboy_31@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:21:00 (BST)

http://www.egroups.com/message/billy-bragg/840
Luther Gaylord
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:16:50 (BST)

Carol...that was Tom Paxton
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 20:06:51 (BST)

to pam and others who replied, thanks for pointing me int he direction of the millenium song mp3. ive just remembered he played power in a union on thursday nite also... the ciders' weraing off!
Nevski
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 19:40:54 (BST)

Sonja--Just drink the Stoli straight and and toast American folksingers. My favorite satirical song is What Did You Learn In School Today because it has the most political bite. For the life of me I can't remember whow rote it.
Carol
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 19:37:13 (BST)

Phil Ochs, i knew a lot of his songs ( sung by Joan Baez for instance ) but i don't think i had heard him singing before i got the tape.
sonj
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:54:05 (BST)

bother, i forgot to buy the jelly! I have got strawberry jam which i think is also called jello in america but it won't quiver in the glass so i don't think it will do.
sonj
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:52:24 (BST)

Phil Ochs' last major rally would have been THE WAR IS OVER Rally (11MAY1975). He did some shows after that in clubs such as Gerde's Folk City and The Bottom Line before committing suicide at his sister Sonny's home, 9APRIL1976.
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:34:56 (BST)

I have a very difficult time spelling Vatican. It comes from writing Steve too much off-line. Another question--My grandson and I just finished watching Loach's My Name Is Joe. In the scene where the soccor team that Joe coaches steals jerseys, the sign on the warehouse says, Arsenal Sports. Is this a generic name for sports products or does it have something to do with Theo's beloved arsenal? Since the jerseys are replicas of a Brazilian team, I was puzzled.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:15:12 (BST)

When I hear the Vatocan Rag, I think of Luther. genuflect, genuflect...
Carol
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:10:59 (BST)

I'm sorry I never did finish putting together the page on Phil Ochs that I had planned to. One of these days, I will work on my website again.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:01:47 (BST)

Karen Einstein introduced me to Phil Ochs in 1975, when she was 16 and I was 17. I didn't know anyone on here back then. I did see him at a rally once in 1976 or 77.
Red Robin <it's all your fault, sonja!>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 18:00:28 (BST)

robin came on here when after i visited her site and left a message sayinng i had come from the planet BBgb and was seeking enlightenment about Phil Ochs, hence i am responsible for robin meeting Luther
sonj <time to go to my rightful place, in the kithchen cleaning the broken fridge so i can have a repair man out without him risking salmonella and e-coli>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:51:29 (BST)

Tettland, i've appeased alberr with a nice lunch and a promise of stolly jelly for tea and he is snoozing so i have sneaked on here to catch up with the gossip. Thanks for the mail, i'll respond soon. What year was that BB/AA gig on Clapham common? Has there been more than one? I'll let you know why i want to know.
sonj <the chastisement was to write out 100 times, i will not wind up luther by talking about my appliances>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:48:30 (BST)

It's like a big huge pyramid scheme!
Luther Gaylord
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:47:27 (BST)

Since I introduced Pete Crook to the music of Phil Ochs, and since Pete (apparently) was the one to introduce Sonj to Phil's music, I guess that means I'm responsible for introducing Sonj to Phil Ochs.
Luther Gaylord
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:46:28 (BST)

Nor Bill Hicks, for that matter.
S.
S.C., - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:09:34 (BST)

I've had "Vatican Rag" stuck in my head all morning--hell yeah, it's catchy! In 4th grade chorus we learned T. Lehrer's song "Pollution"--"If you go to an American city, you will find it very pretty, just 2 things of which you must beware, don't drink the water and don't breathe the air"--tho I must say I caught a good whiff of some gnarly exhaust fumes in London! I don't know how those bike messengers survive it! Never heard of Billy Connelly--tell me more.
Susan
Santa Cruz, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 17:03:06 (BST)

Sorry, can't read.
Tettland
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:59:58 (BST)

Sorry, Big-Bob Joylove.
Tettland
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:46:54 (BST)

Is Big-Bob Joylove really Luther? and if not who the hell is Bib-Bob Joylove? SONJ: Guess Alberr caught you then. Have been chastised?
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:46:00 (BST)

Hur hurr ... I getcha...
Big-Bob Joylove (aka Luther) <stuffing used £50 notes into someone's pocket>
Enfield, UK - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:28:30 (BST)

Never heard of Tom Lehrer until now, must check him out. I guess you've all "done" the Bill Hicks chat (full-on, US lefty comedian, died a few years back of cancer, who Dennis Leary would love to be but never will be...), once described as "Noam Chomsky with dick jokes"? Ooops, there I go again bringing Mr C onto the BBgb... PS. SONJ: Did you get the magnum opus mail?
Tettland <...or is it sonja ...or red robin...or theo ...or bob/mike s etc?>
Somewhere, Not tellin' - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:25:30 (BST)

happy honeymoon john and the new mrs john.
sonj <billy is lovely>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:46:25 (BST)

Billy Connelly had his own sit-com in the states
Brian
London, UK - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:43:20 (BST)

thank you for calling me on my wedding day you are the best billy!
JOHN DUMMETT <johne_d75@hotmail.com>
newcastle, australia - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 13:55:16 (BST)

thank you for calling me on my wedding day you are the best billy!
JOHN DUMMETT <johne_d75>
newcastle, australia - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 13:52:24 (BST)

Just Curious, but is Billy Connelly the commedian/musician/actor well known in America
Steve <Sawasdee Krap nonlaup sa bai dee>
Burp, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 12:19:07 (BST)

lazz, i'm going to save that seuss poem just in case my treckie brother makes me an auntie. I love it. Have got a bit of stolly left in the fridge ( it's only the freezer bit that's broken ) so alberr and i will be having stolly jelly for tea:)
sonj 
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 09:31:58 (BST)

i know fractals are real because i had to buy Emma (youngest ilford girl) a book about them/it when she was at bradford uni. Having said that, just because there is a book about it doesn't make it real. The first time i played a Phil Ochs tape (probably the one i got from pete) i was reminded straight away of Tom Lehrer. I am old enough to remember 'that was the week that was' but if you hadn't mentioned it Pam i wouldn't have remembered the connection.
sonj <Uncle Bill says we can talk about whatever we like on here as long as we are nice to each other.>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 09:06:15 (BST)

The Tom Lehrer tape is the funniest thing since Sunderland Beat Leeds and I read Luther's message board (laugh you old git)..
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 08:12:47 (BST)

I think Lazz has been experimenting with the vodka jello recipe.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 07:25:10 (BST)

If Dr. Seuss Wrote A Star Trek: The Next Generation Episode... Picard: Sigma Indri, that's the star, So, Data, please, how far? How far? Data: Our ship can get there very fast But still the trip will last and last We'll have two days til we arrive But can the Indrans there survive? Picard: LaForge, please give us factor nine. LaForge: But, sir, the engines are offline!*there's a lot more*
lazz <http://www.igs.net/~tril/humor/seuss_st.txt>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 07:20:37 (BST)

vodka jello recipe: Follow the canonical Jello procedure, dissolving the Jello in hot water, but adding vodka instead of the cold water. After some very pleasant experimentation, my friend and I decided that orange Jello worked best (and that vodka was preferable to gin), but she later told me that lime Jello with Daiquiris also went over (or down) very well. By the way, I didn't invent the basic concept -- for example, there is a recipe for wine in gelatin which goes way back.
tom lehrer
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:57:49 (BST)

Question: Are you not a fan of organized religion in general and are you a "spiritual" person? TomLehrer: To say that I am not a "fan" of organized religion is putting it mildly. My feeling about even disorganized religion is summed up in James Taylor's immortal line in "Sweet Baby James": "Maybe you can believe it if it helps you to sleep." I have no desire to promote secular insomnia. As for being "spiritual," not in the New Age sense, certainly. I find enough mystery in mathematics to satisfy my spiritual needs. I think, for example, that pi is mysterious enough (don't get me started!) without having to worry about God. Or if pi isn't enough, how about fractals? or quantum mechanics?
lazz <oops is this not the tom lehrer fan club?>
but i'll bet billy loves him, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:55:10 (BST)

steve will appreciate this answer of tom's: Question: Do you still receive royalties from your older recordings? TomLehrer: Yes, thank God (to name a figure from the bourgeois religion myth). Do you think I could just sit around here and do this if I had to hold down a real job at the same time?
lazz
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:53:21 (BST)

Tom has been given the credit for the invention of something every college student knows and loves - the Vodka Jello Shooter. This concoction - gelatin mixed with vodka instead of water, set, and served in a shot glass, wiggles and all - was apparently created to dodge a certain prohibition against alcoholic beverages on the Harvard campus...because, as everybody knows, Jello is not a beverage...
lazz <jello shots are actually a bit trickier to get them to turn out right>
if you're interested, i can post the recipe, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 06:46:08 (BST)

Tom Lehrer was one of the best political satirists ever. I still have him on vinyl, but I have no way to play it anymore.
Red Robin
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 05:09:03 (BST)

First you get down on your knees. Fiddle with your rosaries. Bow your head with deep respect and genuflect, genuflect, genuflect....Ave Maria! Gee, it's good to see ya. Gettin' ecstatic and kinda dramatic and doin' the Vatican Rag.
Tom Lehrer
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:58:48 (BST)

I remember hearing The Vatican Rag on the radio once or twice (it actually is a pretty catchy tune)...and it looks like Lehrer did stuff for The Electric Company kids show.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:46:36 (BST)

Tom Lehrer was at UC Santa Cruz last I heard. (along with Angela Davis--right on!)
susan
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:38:25 (BST)

here's another good tom lehrer site: http://www.dp9.com/cool/hilary/lowmain.htm
lazz
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:23:30 (BST)

Billy goes Rancid A recent interview goes out on punk band Rancid's web site 'radio' station on Saturday. For this and more news, see News. For tom lehrer, there are numerous sites; here's one with lyrics: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/ The 1953 album, Songs by Tom Lehrer, contains studio recordings of all the songs from Tom Lehrer Revisited. The 1959 album More Songs by Tom Lehrer contains studio recordings of all the songs from An Evening (Wasted) With Tom Lehrer. Both of these albums are out of print, however, they are collectively available on the 1996 album Songs & More Songs by Tom Lehrer, currently available from Rhino Records. This album contains all of the tracks from the other two, along with 1960 orchestral recordings of four of the songs, and a 1996 recording of I Got it From Agnes. For those who don't know, Tom Lehrer is a schoolteacher who enjoyed a career during the 1950's and 1960's as a satirical songwriter. If you've never heard him, he's very similar to Mark Russell, except that he's funny.
lazz
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:20:05 (BST)

If it is the same Tom Lehrer who wrote those songs then here's his story. Lehrer was professor at Harvard (Princeton? MIT?)...some highly regarded eastern university. As a hobby he wrote satirical songs on political and social topics. About this time, the hit television show on the BBC was a weekly comedy series, That Was the Week That Was. It was so popular that American TV decided to copy it and hired Lehrer as one of its regular contributors. TW3 had a cult following (including me--even though I was a wee one then) but quickly got in trouble with its sponsors due to content. (In some ways it was the precurser of the Smothers Brothers problems with the CBS network) Later on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In gentled some of the satire and adopted the quick cross-cut from skit to skit and became one of the most popular shows in American TV history. When TW3 closed, Lehrer continued doing some live performances and produced a couple of albums. The last I heard, he had returned to teaching math at that prestigious university the name of which continues to escape me right now.
Pam
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 02:00:42 (BST)

Steve: "The Bomb," "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park," "Vatican Rag," "Pollution," "The Elements," "New Math"....any of these on the tape?
Pam Raver
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:42:57 (BST)

STEVE: Tom Lehrer did political commentary via "novelty" songs and wrote "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park." Wish I could interpret your dream...
Kim
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:42:29 (BST)

this was just sent to me..."the political situation is entirely different in Brazil, as shown in yesterday's letter from author Huascar Terra do Valle. http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9527.htm Brazil is the world's largest Roman Catholic nation, but their President is an atheist. Unlike today's American politicians, President Fernando Henrique Cardoso has learned that keeping quiet on one's personal religious faith (or lack thereof) is expedient. Not only must a representative or a leader represent all citizens, she or he best realize that whether or not a god exists (or who that god is or what it says) is one of the least important topics over which to argue."
Steve <off to the bush>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:41:34 (BST)

Laura, thanks for that tape you sent, its a brilliant tape of Tom Leher from about 1965 I know nothing about this guy, is it the same person who now has a news show on US TV??..any info
Steve
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:39:13 (BST)

Nevski, that's Luther's site. Since he isn't around at the moment to tell you, the URL is http://hillstrom.iww.org/music/billybragg/Bragg_originals/
Pam Raver <raverp@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:37:19 (BST)

I HAD A DREAM..a vivid dream, It was 6pm Saturday 19th August and Theo was driving down the A19(trunk road to Sunderland,if you ever Motor 'North East')laughing and crying at the same time..what could this mean??
Steve <positiveatheist@email.com>
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:32:43 (BST)

You can get The Millenium Song Nevski if you follow Billys unofficial links, take the first link on the list then click on the "links and stuff" icon and go into the first link. there is a list of folders, click on the bragg originals folder where you will find a very good live version. Good luck.
Andy Tyrrell <andybragg237@yahoo.co.uk>
Grimsby, England - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:28:04 (BST)

Brian..The Members, there's a band..at the Chelsea Nightclub album is brilliant..do you know what Nicky Tesco is doing now?..ships changing names..this happens often,(unless she's called the QE2) for several resons usually the ship may be re-registered at another port/country, it may be bought by another company,or has changed its usual routes(marketing). I worked on a cruise ship for 6 years and it had been renamed twice in 15 years...why am I soberly rambling.
Steve <WishyWashyWobbleyMackem@herbalteaforum>
SOL, - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 01:26:21 (BST)

i would have lost my bet, i reckoned 'the people' would keep caroline in there. I think she is lovely!
sonj 
- Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 00:02:31 (BST)

sonj: I have changed my mind about Nick
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:57:58 (BST)

did pete c go to sidmouth for his holidays? Did you spot him there nevski? i wonder if there will be a bootleg tape? BB is always best 'live' i reckon.
sonj <'fraid alberr has noticed excessive postings today. If you don't hear from me again you'll know why!>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:42:36 (BST)

anywhere i can get millenium song in mp3 anyone?
nevski
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:10:45 (BST)

nevski, at least three of my very favourite songs..and cider too!
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:06:21 (BST)

I seem to have erased my e-mail addressbook, so will those of you who don't post addresses get them to me, please?
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:56:33 (BST)

in a vain attempt to inject a little bragg news onto the board... set list as i remember it (not in order) Upfield,way over yonder in the minor key, ingrid bergman,my flying saucer,black wind blowing, between the wars, millenium song, brickbat, the one i dont know the name of about reclaiming english identity from the boot boys...World turned upside down... errr and probably many others i cant remember now. it seemed like a god idea to try and list em all... guess that cider was effective after all.....
nevski
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:51:01 (BST)

If you think Bobo is bad you should check out "Generation Jones" (another demographic/marketing concept thats floating around out there...doesn't quite have the media play Bobo is getting). Or even worse check out some of Michael Weiss' stuff on "market clusters". ("Single City Blues", "Old Yankee Rows", etc.).
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:45:36 (BST)

It was such a great typo I had to leave it!
Red Robin <satan santa both in red>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:42:22 (BST)

My Sun Conure is named Bobo. I probably am very Bohemian (still an old hippy non-conformist) and my own forum is called Bohemian Coffee House, but we live on a movement income with multiple kids, well below the national statistics for median income, so I doubt the financial definition fits. I still haven't bought Mermaid Ave 2 (I will eventually if I have money), but I bought one ticket to see Billy in Philly. That was my splurge for the next several months. This weekend, I'm going to try to cloister myself away and finish my musical. My composer is getting antsy because I haven't written anything new in over a month.
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:37:59 (BST)

satan's helper..?. don't go down that road sonja!
santa's reindeer driver
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:36:08 (BST)

Jeff, as we type, a copy of the tape you sent me is being snail mailed by my old mates in the post office to our mutual friend theo. Brian, have aquired more blank tapes. Mountain stage will be on its way tomorrow.
sonj(a)
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:34:17 (BST)

I think the Bobo concept kind of goes beyond marketing and into politics and cultural style. And I think there are a range of price points involved as well...there is sort of a downmarket boboism as well as the high-end profile illustrated in my links. I think the ultimate Boboland has to be the Bay Area (particularly the North Bay).
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:29:56 (BST)

***THEO***: I recommend that you send me some "real" (snail) mail. I still have a stack of things I haven't sent you and that might motivate me to actually do so. JEFF: A "Bobo"?! Ack! I am marketed to, therefore I am.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:15:18 (BST)

If you look hard enough, Google will give you a link back here with our names in the captions. So as long as Google finds our names on here, we exist. Even O. Wilde and Satan's Little Helper and Sonja. Somehow there is a sci-fi story in this.
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:43:48 (BST)

Ah Brian - now I know who you are!
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Home, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:29:40 (BST)

Thanks Robin, I am on Google, a few thousand times! Didn't realise I was famous!
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth home at last!, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:28:35 (BST)

Score for you, Bob!
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:21:28 (BST)

http://www.nfld.com/~june/artists/BobMac/bob1.html I play steel guitar. Last night after the gig we all got wasted and I ended up in a threesome with the two violin players.
Bob Lucier
Newfoundland, Canada - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:20:08 (BST)

You ARE real, Derik!!! The Google Fairy says so!
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:17:12 (BST)

just checked google - I am a lawyer, a catholic priest and mentioned in something to do with Al Gore being dis-honest - wow
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:15:47 (BST)

cheers - gonna go for it!!
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:12:22 (BST)

I found myself on Google, so I am real! Whew I was worried.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:10:43 (BST)

You/they end up with part of a song.
Brain
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:10:36 (BST)

Bob: ...and if I go off-line while someone else is downloading (or vica versa) then...?
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:09:23 (BST)

Enjoy yourselves Barbara & Bob.
Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:08:02 (BST)

. . . And only when you're logged on to the Napster system.
Bob
US - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:06:11 (BST)

?????
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:06:10 (BST)

Have a wonderful time Barb, think of me as you and your husband are strollilng along Queens Key. I think the Caribana festival is still going on.
James <NoWomannoCry!>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:05:40 (BST)

Brian, yes, but only the directory you specify, and only for MP3 files. I'm not a computer security expert, but I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with file theft, tampering, etc. Except for the big record companies. Ha ha!
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:04:12 (BST)

Then again, maybe I'm Mike Schwab. I could be faking my identity and have taken on the alias of someone who has never even ventured to this site...and I've been doing this since December, JUST to taunt a man who is the only real participant here.
Red Robin <self-deception@yahoo.con>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:03:40 (BST)

"If you go to http://www.google.com/ and search for "Luther Gaylord", "Pam Raver", or even "Carol Tarlen" you will get hits which confirm our existence as real people. Now do a search for "Bob Lucier Jr." See the difference? "
Red Robin <quoting from someone who thinks he's not Mike Schwab>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:59:55 (BST)

well - I am actually Lord Lucan!
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:58:57 (BST)

Bob - does it mean that anyone can then search my hard-drive for MP3's (sorry - a bit confused!!)
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:57:45 (BST)

I have never had problems with Bob, Mike Schwab, Sonja, Carol, James, Theo, Lazz, ai, keri, Geoff or most other people on here. Maybe they are all the same person.
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:57:35 (BST)

who said that? :)
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:55:22 (BST)

A person only exists if they can be located with Google? If this is the case, my husband does not exist. Neither do my children. I must be living in a fantasy world.
Red Robin <sister of red sonja>
NJ, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:53:59 (BST)

your
Bob
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:53:48 (BST)

Brian, yes, and yes it's worth bothering with. It's pretty simple. Download the program. Install the program. Sign up. Search. Download. That's about it. Just be aware that you're download times are dependent upon the speed of your connection and the speed of the other users' connection. If you have a slow modem and you're paying telephone fees for access, then it might not be worth it to you. But if you have fast, free access and/or don't mind waiting/paying then go for it.
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:53:23 (BST)

does anyone on here have any experience of Napster? is it worth bothering with?
Brian
Londond, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:47:43 (BST)

I'll admit I have a whole new mental picture of Alberr and Sonj. Off to Toronto for the weekend, I'll drink many Canadian beverages and toast you all.
Barbara <grownwomenwithcurvyfiguresarebeautiful>
asareouryoungerslimmersisters, ilovemenmadly - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:35:08 (BST)

oohhh!!! over my head
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:30:11 (BST)

strange query - would anyone on here know a good site to get Primal Scream MP3 downloads - done a few searches on google, altavista, etc but no joy
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:28:05 (BST)

Brian: And I think she meant Tom Collins as in the drink... Sonj: If you are Red Sonja, is Alber Conan?
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:25:29 (BST)

and due to slight over indulgence in strumpy jack amd dry blackthorne i am just a bit tubbier. but as derik says, size doesn't matter!
the one and only sonj(a) p @braggpuss
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:18:46 (BST)

i am also red sonja of course, but i don't wear those silly outfits any more.
sonja pedersen ( very very common in denmark but fairly unusual over here)
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:16:00 (BST)

Carol, which one of you three is Hecate then ?..or am I thinking of something else ?.... (Now, that's humour) teeheehee, love,
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:12:43 (BST)

Carol: re-Phil Collins brothers - Tom? possibly - he was just pointed out to me - he was a cartoonist/illustrator if my memory serves me
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:06:52 (BST)

Sonja, Helen and Barbara are the trinity.
Carol <goddesses"r"us>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:57:25 (BST)

proof Sonja is actually a Canadian!!! http://www.vancouverbcrealty.com/team.html
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:57:03 (BST)

How do you spell your last name Sonj? I think i found someone online with your name.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:55:35 (BST)

I thought it was Sonja and Barbara Ingalls who look alike. Are you suggesting that Barbara looks like Helen Mirren?
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:55:05 (BST)

Luther--final proof of your insanity. First of all both Sonja and Helen look alike. Secondly, both are socialists. I heard Helen aka Sonja say so in a radio interview. Finally, Sonja aka Helen is my sister. I mean that in a feminist and comradely way.
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:51:25 (BST)

Sonj dearest: You mean all that time I was watching Inspector Tennison it was you
James <maketheblindmenseeandmakethedumbmantalk>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:47:22 (BST)

Thanks for that, Luther !
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:41:59 (BST)

Thanks to Luther, Bob has been outed. We now know that Bob is Bob and he has a father named Bob. But horrors, both my father and stepfather were named Bob, as was my first husband and my brother. The truth is now absolute. I am Bob III. (or is it the fourth).
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:40:59 (BST)

Let's see...if I were Bob, I'd say that you're too damned ugly to be Helen Mirren. But I'm not Bob, so I won't say that.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:40:10 (BST)

More Sonj to love.
Barbara <or . . . am I?>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:39:22 (BST)

good thinking batman!
the other helper
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:39:18 (BST)

luther, prove i am not helen mirren!
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:38:09 (BST)

Sonj, just tell him that the imposters have returned.
Sonja's Little Helper
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:37:33 (BST)

Size doesn't matter Sonja. ;)
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:35:35 (BST)

i have just checked my special offer full pint can(s) of dry blackthorn from waitrose. It doesn'r mention bass anywhere so can i carry on drinking. I am a bit worried about my stomach but that is more a size thing:(
sonj <how can i convince alberr i havn't been posting much today???>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:34:56 (BST)

And is this Bob's dad? http://countrystore.org/webpages/county/review99/records.htm
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:33:35 (BST)

So, is this Bob? http://www.egroups.com/message/this-is-music/3315
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:31:44 (BST)

Brian, was Phil Collin's brother named Tom?
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:30:30 (BST)

Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity !
Brian's Followers
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:27:56 (BST)

So... Steve Lima of The Members has collaborated with... Rolf Harris on his new single. Hope the call it "The Sound Of The Outback"
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:27:31 (BST)

LOOK - I AM NOT THE MESSIAH!!
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:25:19 (BST)

Thanks, James. Now I have a better story not to drink it rather than "it tastes like crap."
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:24:46 (BST)

Hail Brian, Hail Brian, Hail the Messiah !
Cast Extra's from Life of Brian
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:20:09 (BST)

I used to work in the same office as Phil Collins' brother
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:19:38 (BST)

Yuengling always makes me think of Jerry Lewis. Lady, I'll have a Yuenglinglinglingling.
Barbara <datingmyselfwithjerrylewisreferences>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:18:45 (BST)

Hi all
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:17:51 (BST)

Derrick: The Bass Corp. is a multinational that owns, among its holdings, hotels. The incident I am about describe is either the Holiday Inn or The Hyatt. The Hotel Mgmt. was hiring Mexican immigrants to do their janorital duties in the hotels. These workers were underpaid and forced to work under very poor conditions. When the workers attempted to organize, the mgmt. resorted by contacting INS (Immigration and Naturalization Serivices) and having them deported. Only after a deluge of messages calling for their release, did the INS rescind the deportation. Mind you the Hotel Mgmt were all British who dont' even hold Green Cards (no offence to the British here)
James <got is from Michael Moore>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:17:10 (BST)

I meant to dsay that I drink martinis with 3 olives, but I am so confused by this question about who is who that I can't figure out what is waht. Who knows? Maybe Billy is really Phil Collins, and it is all an evil Tory plot.
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:17:01 (BST)

Any other questions?
Bob <boblucierjr@mediaone.net>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:14:33 (BST)

Another empty post from Sonj which asserts that "Bob Lucier Jr." exists but offers no real proof. He has good taste in women? Huh? If you go to http://www.google.com/ and search for "Luther Gaylord", "Pam Raver", or even "Carol Tarlen" you will get hits which confirm our existence as real people. Now do a search for "Bob Lucier Jr." See the difference? Anyone can create an account at Yahoo. What's your MediaOne e-mail address, "Bob"?
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:12:04 (BST)

derik-i'll make you something to drink after work too... my first house guest is coming tonight... i'm a cider fan myself... dry blackthorn... think it's eating a hole through my stomach..
keri
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:06:38 (BST)

my cousin is my relative
sonj <ok. i'll go and clear a space on the sofa>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:06:20 (BST)

Would that be a quadruple martini? Sounds dangerous.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:06:18 (BST)

Nothing beats a dry martini made with Plymouth Gin and three martinis.
Carol, aka Queen Mother
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:04:51 (BST)

i make the drink to stop him minding the mess :)
sonj <housework not my strong point>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:04:36 (BST)

Truth is relative.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:04:27 (BST)

Let's see. Is Bob Mike S or is Mike S Luther? The evidence: Bob sends funny satires to me via email, while Mike S sends me private emails saying I am childish. You be the judge.
Carol (I think) <istruthabsoluteorrelative@notthatitmatters>
I Don't Know Where I am Anymore, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:03:35 (BST)

Wish I had someone to make me something to drink after work. Instead I go home and find whatever mess my roomates made that day.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:58:04 (BST)

I tend to drink dry cider (what a surprise) but i will make alberr a cup of tea after a hard day in the office.
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:54:02 (BST)

If you insist, Keri... James: What is the story behind Bass? Not that I drink it. I stick to Yuengling brews, which are made right outside Philadelphia. America's Oldest Brewery.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:52:33 (BST)

Thank you Sonj, now what is the accompanying beverage of choice?
James <reffuse to drink Bass for political reasons>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:50:04 (BST)

derik... that's it... i'm kidnapping you and we're going to england. start saving $
keri
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:47:49 (BST)

Mmmmmm Fish & Chips ! There's no Plaice like home. Get your Skate's on. You'd better eat something before you get Eel. Don't forget the Six Squid you owe me too. I've got a bit of an Haddock so don't get any funny ideas. Cod Bless !
Sonja's Little Helper
The Smoke, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:47:34 (BST)

Mushy peas? I think I would prefer the guacamole.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:44:09 (BST)

health and hygeine now decrees that fish and chips come in sterile grey paper but when i was a girl it really did come wrapped in newspaper. The accompaniment is not (as mr mandleson would believe) guacamole. It is mushy peas. Personally i like pea fritters. I also like lemon and mayo on them but alberr is more traditional. In London they eat rock eel but down here they eat huss. which is one and the same think. I like haddock myself.
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:42:33 (BST)

I'm starting to wonder who I am... Here is a quote by the poet Rumi: All day I think about it, then at night I say it. // Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? // I have no idea. // My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, // and I intend to end up there.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:40:16 (BST)

Luther, i don't do mailing lists (i would be so upset if i didn't get excluded) so my knowledge of Mr Shwab is very limited. I have had lots of disagreements with Mr Lucier but apart from an occasional outbursts of horribleness directed by him mainly at you I have not had a serious falling out with him. Also he has very good taste in women. That is my last and final word on that subject!!
sonja pedersen, wife of alberr, (father of the two essex girls) mother of lisa and jason, friend of carol and kate. <and i can confirm that alberr HATES coleslaw>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:37:17 (BST)

Derick: I just remember some BBC comedy called "Hot Metal" where I kept hearing the editor refering to bad journalism "I wouldn't wrap chips in that one"
James <Greatermindsthanminehaveyettoanswerthatquestion>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:32:54 (BST)

Doesn't the newspaper ink rub off on the food?
derik <not that i'm gonna eat fish anyway>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:29:10 (BST)

How do you know so much about "Bob Lucier Jr", Carol? Have you ever met him in person? Spoken with him on the telephone? I have strong reason to believe that "Bob" is really Mike Schwab playing a little game. What proof can you offer that he exists as a real person?
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:27:56 (BST)

Sonj: Fish-n-Chips with malt vinegar wrapped in the London Times. Do you get cole-slaw with that. and a bottle of guiness to wash it down
James <keepingthekidsfromkillingeachother>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:27:35 (BST)

I will second Carol's response. Though, Luther, you are probably giving Bob quite a lot of amusement at your assertions.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:26:35 (BST)

Bob is not a democrat. Mike Schwab is. Bob does not live in LA. Bob likes Anyn Rand and Helen Mirren. I have no idea what writers Mike S. likes because he never mentions writers. Bob has a sense of humor. Mike S. does not. Luther, Bob is Bob. Believe me. I know. The question is, are you Mike Schwab?
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:22:15 (BST)

Yes, Sonj, you are missing a piece of the puzzle. This is yet another case of people not reading carefully. Start at the bottom and take a very close look at all "Bob's" posts to the guestbook, under all his various pseudonyms. It's dead clear from (1) his writing style, (2) the content of his posts, and (3) his obsession with me that he is Mike Schwab.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:17:20 (BST)

75 lbs - That's a FUG-ing rip off.
jon <still@work>
sorry, bad pun - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:16:38 (BST)

sorry, that was a personal message ...
mrs alberr
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:09:54 (BST)

what are you doing still at work? Come home!!!! You can have fish and chips:)
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:08:49 (BST)

anytime, Derick
James <lostwithoutspellcheck, ibeforeeexceptafterc>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:06:02 (BST)

Saw The Fugs complete lyrics listed in a book catalogue recently. £75.00 UK money. Is that ironic?
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Back in the Smoke today, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:53:31 (BST)

Can I correct your spelling, James? ;)
derik <nice to see you posting again>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:37:02 (BST)

Ed Sanders was at the Green Rally along with Pete Seeger, Sanders recited a poem about Alan Ginsberg One line righs true, "While I'am her, I will do the work. What is the work? To ease the pain of living"
James <used to be a fokieuntilIdiscoveredMuddyWaters>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:25:52 (BST)

Should be 'Beatnik'.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:20:48 (BST)

Sanders' Tales of Beanik Glory is a great read. If only the third volume would be released in English. Somehow it only seems to be available in a German translation?
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:20:29 (BST)

the answer to the question posed at 15:43:32 is: nothing, i hope, she was his mother.
lapland santa's helper
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:19:41 (BST)

Well, the Fugs may have had some disgusting sexists in it, but I have met Tuli Kupferberg, and he is a sweet, unassuming family man and very funny and nice. My friend Jack just came back from a bus tour of Italy--it was a bus tour of Beatnik poets, and Ed Sanders was on it, too. It was a very geriatric bunch, but the Italians love it. So, all in all, the Fugs live in one incarnation or another, and Peter whats-his-name doesn't have the spirit of Sanders or Tuli.
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:17:11 (BST)

Spot on Bob! Aforementioned daughter, lisa, has a First in English. Horrible was one of her most used words, as in ‘mummy, he’s being horrible to me’. Her brother, who was full of horribleness towards his little sister can’t spell for toffee but his verbal wit is brilliant.
proud mother of all my children
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:11:58 (BST)

I turned him down, Derik. He was too old and too weird for me. :)
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:02:58 (BST)

Robin, I have heard stories like that before, Izzy, Young, owner of the folklore center at the time, was the worst, Its is told that he once went after his own cousin who was only 15.
James <storieslikethatmakemesick>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:02:13 (BST)

Sounds Racey. Racey Red Robin.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:01:14 (BST)

I'll tell you about Peter Stampfel elsewhere, James. Somethings about a party, his having too much to drink, and me being 19-years-old at the time...
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:00:13 (BST)

I know for a fact that Bob L is actually Bob L. Mike Schwab is someone else. And I am who I am (and I eat spinach).
Carol
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:56:48 (BST)

I just took 10 minutes to check out the Moore board again nad nothing has changed. If anyone is really curious, although some of the really venemous posts are scrolled, check out http://www.michaelmoore.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=2000+Election&number=7
Pam Raver <raverp@hotmail.com>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:54:53 (BST)

Robin, tell us more about Peter Stampfel, I remember him 25years ago when I used to hang out at the folklore center in Greenwich Village, ah, the days of cheap rents. Peter Seeger, now in his 80's is still in command of all of his faculties. He recently perfromed at a Green Party Rally in Rosendale NY, (some creep stole his banjo from his car)
James
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:20:24 (BST)

SHEESH!
.
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:11:31 (BST)

AALSO, "then", not the (for those whose days are ruined by typos).
RR <again-sorry>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:10:31 (BST)

Insightful...not insiteful. Too much web jargon on the brain these days....
Robin <oops>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:08:56 (BST)

I go to sleep after midnight, take care of my kiddies (feed, clothe and bring one to camp) in the morning, and the have to spend an hour catching up on posts. Don't you people ever sleep or work? Anyway, Barbara, I remember the Bus Boys. They were actually a pretty good (funny, clever, insiteful) group, though I have no idea what happened to them since their first album. As for being Bohemian, it is not coincidental that the forum I (used to) run is called Bohemian Coffe House. My first concert was a Pete Seeger concert. I think I was 14-years-old at the time. After that, the concerts I saw were all benefits for the United farm Workers, since I started working with them at age 15. During those days, we ran the concerts, so I got to see Holly Near, Peter Yarrow, Tommy Maken & Liam Clancy, Steve Goodman (got to party with him, too), David Amram, Gil Evans, Peter Stampfel (yuck), Melanie (groan), and Bright Morning Star. I saw plenty of others at rallies over the years. My first intro to a real rock concert, though, was the No Nukes concert in Madison Square Garden. Crosby, Stills & Nash, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Bonnie Raitt, Jackson Browne, Chaka Khan, Peter Tosh (!!!), and Bruce Springsteen with the E Street Band getting ready to launch his tour for "The River." I've seen him in concert four times, as well as at the massive demo in NYC for nuclear disarmament. Until I went to see Billy Bragg in NYC in March and again in July, I have not been to a concert since I've been with my husband (15 years).
Red Robin
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 16:07:09 (BST)

Sonja, I am the same Bob that knows you hate Muzak in pubs. And I apologize for my outbursts of horribleness (is that word?).
Bob L
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:48:00 (BST)

derik, no..it was definetly an apple. Eyeballs, eh ? Don't some drug users insert their substances in the same place, to speed up the kick ? Maybe that's what he was doing ?
T
L, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:45:39 (BST)

what was going on between james the first and mary?
santa's other helper
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:43:32 (BST)

bobbi, are you the very same bob l j, who has had the same name for months and months who knows what i really really hate in pubs?? Why do people keep saying you are not owning up to who you are? whether you are nice horrible or careless you seem to be just as precise about your identity as Pam and Luther. Am i missing something ??
sonja <its no good talking to me its just the same as talking to you>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:41:05 (BST)

Maybe it was fate!... Useless fact: Apparantly Newton used to stick needles in his eyes, for some kind of undefined scientific experiment.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:40:01 (BST)

Maybe I am trying to apply scientific resoning where it doen't apply. Its been 15 years since I studied statistics.
James <blameitonmyscientifictraining>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:39:45 (BST)

derik, unless you are Isaac Newton and an apple drops on your head !
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:38:43 (BST)

I don't think luck is scientific.
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:36:58 (BST)

I always thought "luck" was a matter of probability: Example each dice cube has six numbers so you have 1 in 6 of rolling the number you want or am I being too scientific?
James
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:35:50 (BST)

SLH, I agree with you about God and luck. I'll explain in a couple of minutes.
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:29:02 (BST)

HAHA. Do you have any proof of that, Luther?.. Bob: What I meant was believeing in god OR superstition/luck is still a matter of faith. If you can believe in one thing that has insubstantial proof, why not believe in another... But I do not wish to belabor the point...
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:28:17 (BST)

'I want to be called, Loretta.' 'But why, Loretta' Stan?' 'It's my right as a man...and I want to have babies.' 'But you can't have babies...well you haven't got a womb, where's he foetus going to gestate, in a box?"
Topical Life of Brian Moment
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:28:05 (BST)

Luther, you are correct up until the Mike Schwab part. Do you think he's the only one in the world who disagrees with you? Look around, there are many of us. You score a 75% on your detective work. Try harder next time and you might figure out that I really, really do exist.
Bob Lucier, Jr. <freemahkets@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:27:15 (BST)

No, I don't subscribe to sailors' superstitions, nor do I believe that the dock-strikers were ultimately vindicated because the Neptune Jade is forever cursed with bad luck. I simply mentioned the "bad luck" bit in passing, to share some maritime lore. And for those of you who still haven't figured it out, Bobbi = Bob = Bob Lucier Jr. = Mike Schwab.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:19:14 (BST)

Pam, that movement is still going on. My problem is she sounds like a broken record; posting variations of the same message over and over and over again. Of couse, it got personal after a time.
James
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:19:08 (BST)

typo: lst=last
Pam
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:15:55 (BST)

RE: Michael Moore message boards and Mary. I used to read them regularly, but just ran out of time. James, the lst I recall they were trying to ban or at least suspend Mary from posting there, but it seemed to run out of steam. Haven't been back for couple of weeks.
Pam
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:14:23 (BST)

Correct, way to go, Bob ! btw, I think it's possible to believe in Luck and not in God..isn't it ?
SLH
Springfield, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:11:23 (BST)

Actually, It comes from a Desmond Decker tune,"Music like Dirt"
James
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:11:10 (BST)

Life Goes On? Is that the name? Obla di obla da. Whatever . . .
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:09:07 (BST)

Derik, my last answer was a total joke. Having said that, I still don't necessarily believe what you say is true. One would have to believe in God AND believe that God would punish him for changing a ship's name.
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:07:54 (BST)

James, great ! Excuse for a quick quiz then. From which Beatles song does that line come from ?
SLH
Springfield, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:07:43 (BST)

I am sorry. You lost me with that.
James <musiclikedirt>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:02:42 (BST)

James, I think Desmond's got a barrel in the market place ?
SLH
Springfield, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:01:03 (BST)

Pam, Worse than ever!. She has been accusing all of the Greens, of being closet conservatives who are going to hand over the poor to Debuya. At one point, she actully cut and paisted some of my messages and was going to pass them out in Phil during the RNC. She has made a lot of enemies. I understand she used to post here. does anyone have any information about her. On a different note. Is it true that Desmond Decker (King of Ska) is now living in the UK? Does anyone know this for a fact?
James <rumbabdibuhg bum bum bidha intensify!>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:58:52 (BST)

If you believe in a divine being, you might as well believe changing a ship's name can cause bad luck... or believe in luck at all...
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:58:12 (BST)

Do I believe in Luther? Is that what you're asking? I believe in a divine being who/which is greater than myself, whether that being is named God, or Gaylord, or Gaylord Perry, I'm not sure. Wait a minute, what was the question?
Bobbi
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:51:26 (BST)

Do you believe in a god Bobbi?
derik <it is relevant, really.>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:45:51 (BST)

Theo, I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find classical references to sailors referring to Chinese people as "chinks," but my question was whether a logical guy like Luther finds comfort in the fact that they were forced into renaming the ship, and in doing so, bringing themselves and "her" bad luck. Renaming it the "Drowning Leo DiCaprio" would have no real effect on the vessel's seaworthiness, would it?
Bobbi
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:38:49 (BST)

Sonj, there are 'more' of ya ? They don't post on here to, do they ?
Santa's Li..I mean Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:21:38 (BST)

Bobbi, you can go back to Homer's epic poems, 'The Illiad' & 'The Odyssey' to see where superstitious sailors are first mentioned. They have been ever since. Pity that the Captain of The Titanic ignored running over that black cat, in his car on the way to the Southampton.
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:18:46 (BST)

Theo, you haven't met all the family yet. There are alberr's two lovely Ilford Girls still waiting to meet you.
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:13:03 (BST)

Mark: i had a bit of a problem pasting that link but i got it ok via Unofficial Billy Links. An excellent site!!!
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:10:32 (BST)

Mark, thanks for the update. I'm gonna show the lyrics to a couple of 'Romford Girls' who I work with...and then run for my life. Anyone know what Billy actually thinks about the song, here in the year 2000. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the catalyst for all the 'Essex Girl' jokes that followed ? Now...that's what you would call 'Ironic'! ......teeheehee.
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:09:51 (BST)

As a woman trapped in a man's body (or am I a man trapped in a woman's body?) I find referring to ships as "she" particularly offensive. Also, Luther, you don't really find that "traditionally brings with it bad luck" crap persuasive do you?
Bobbi
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:08:00 (BST)

I believe that the Neptune Jade was finally able to unload her cargo somewhere in Asia. But she was so tainted by the "scab" label that her owners were forced to rename her (which, as I understand from a sailing friend, is almost never done and traditionally brings with it bad luck).
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:01:03 (BST)

Hmm.. first concert: Living Colour... and some horrible band that did a song about gum called 'Juicy Fruit.'
derik
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:00:46 (BST)

Carsten, that's gotta be the all time one. How about adding this to a list, "I did not have 'sexual relations' with her", or whatever Bill said exactly. Erm..that's Clinton of course...not our own Barking Bard. Luther, is the ship still sailing around the world, to this day ?
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:54:41 (BST)

Recently myself and Geoff Wilson have been trying to put together a complete set of lyrics for the Riff Raff songs by transcribing them from the records. On top of the side effect of waking up in the night with "Romford Girls" going through my head, this turned out to be a near impossible task as many of the words (and sometimes whole lines) were unintelligible. However, I did find a solution ! I persuaded Wiggy to take a look at our garbled versions of the lyrics and correct and verify them. This was no easy task for him as the songs were originally written "on the backs of envelopes and beer mats" and no copies now exist. What we do have though (published for the first time) is a full set of Wiggy approved lyrics, and you can now find them at Braggtopia! http://www.webone.com.au/~bragg Enjoy !
Mark Warner <Mark_R_Warner@yahoo.com>
Canberra, Australia - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:51:12 (BST)

thank you for that luther. Out of interest, was there only one mailing list in those days?
sonja <every day in every way ....>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:50:08 (BST)

i am not a biguitie, i love everybody
sonj@housework (sort of)
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:32:39 (BST)

Jon, how about "Let him have it, Chris!" ?
Carsten
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:32:10 (BST)

Here's the story, Theo: During the dockers strike in 1997, a ship named the Neptune Jade was loaded by scabs in Liverpool. When she arrived on the western coast of the United States, she was turned away from port after port by wobblies and other people acting in solidarity with the dock-strikers. As the scab ship was turned away from each port, I posted regular updates to the Billy Bragg mailing list (or the "fan club" as Carsten likes to call it). Bill read my posts to the mailing list and was inspired to write "Never Cross A Picket Line". In the end, the Neptune Jade was never able to unload her scab cargo in the United States. She sailed to Japan, where she was also met with pickets.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:31:10 (BST)

Steves comments about ambiguity are too ambiguous for me - you'll have to come up with a top 5 list of ambiguities... before contemplating your navel for a week, meditating on the meaning of meaning.
Jon <@work>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:25:00 (BST)

i don't think he has, theo!
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:24:50 (BST)

Hmm, GoZilla managed to grab it now, but at 0.7 K/sec. I'll probably be at it for the rest of the day. Is it worth it?
Carsten
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:24:03 (BST)

Luther, have you answered Sonja's, and my, query about your involvement with Billy's 'Picket Line' song ?
Theo
London, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:23:45 (BST)

I wasnt going to send you a mail bomb Luther, sheesh..
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:20:58 (BST)

Try dragging the file on top of a different MP3 player, Carsten.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:15:10 (BST)

Pity, Luther. Can't get the download to work... :(
Carsten
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:07:51 (BST)

So what did he sing at sidmouth? miles?? anybody??
-
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 12:46:36 (BST)

http://downloads.mp3.com/AAIAQqw8AQBBRd9DJAGAwARub3JtUAQAAABSakkAAFEBAAAAUwEAAABUAQAAAEO75ZM5VbYTj62ePlpTKXK7vldHhQ--/i_hate_you11.mp3
You wrote a song about me?
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 12:45:44 (BST)

Great gig last night in Sidmouth. I discovered Woody Guthrie in 1969 and feel that BB is doing good with the songs. Like the sentiments too. One little moan - Would have loved to hear Walt Whitman's Neice! - with the audience responding!! Billy, Would you know what happened to a lady called Odetta who sang a song on a WG compilation album many years ago? All the best, Miles
Miles <msnowdon@eclipse.co.uk>
EXETER, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 12:42:24 (BST)

Talking of 'Big Brother'. If you're bored, here's a little game you can play. Try inserting names of BBgb postee's when prompted and check the results. Have Fun , http://www.dc8p.com/bigbrother.html
Big Brother
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 12:04:56 (BST)

Steve, Kevin Wilson is still Manager, although if he keeps going the way he is I can see him getting poached by a bigger club.
Dyl
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 11:22:39 (BST)

mmm more Ambiguity, very little is so clear cut, cheers Dyl, and have a good season, who's manager now
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 11:14:11 (BST)

Can someone nip round to Fratten Park in Portsmouth and give that Manager a good talking to..the cheek.. trying to poach Sunderlands Jody Craddock....whats the opposite of pendantic..
Steve <Macro rather than Micro>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 11:12:01 (BST)

Just a caveat to Bogues posting about racist references in the UK. I would agree that generally the word Paki is used as a derogatory generic term for people from the Indian subcontinent. However, when Pakistan were over for the cricket World Cup I went to see them with a friend of mine who is from Pakistan. He met up with people who had travelled over from Pakistan for the tournament and it was their great delight to loft banners and chant "Paki Power". So once again, we enter a grey area - Paki is usually derogatory but not always, it depends upon the context.
Dyl
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 09:53:32 (BST)

re: Racism - a few years ago I saw (on tv) a piece about this man is Auss who placed an advert in the local paper - House For Sale, 4 Bedrooms, Large Garden, Nice Neighbourhood, Serious Offers Considered. NO ASIANS. The local news found this offensive so that went around to the house to confront him and he defended his actions saying "I don't care what others say - I hate them - they are all scum" - the reporter was totally shocked and started having a go saying "how can you hate someone just because they come from another country or are of a different race - that is disgusting" - the man looked really confused and said "whats racist about hating Estate Agents" - someone had mis-heard him at the newspapers and put in Asians instead of Agents
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 09:25:38 (BST)

I agree with Sonj - it really annoys me two! :)
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 09:20:12 (BST)

Brian good to see Nine Below Zero get a mention, their Classic Live at the Marquee album is now out on cd...saw them three years ago and still doing the business, not a pork pie hat in sight though..
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 09:04:56 (BST)

of course i meant write, not say..... If i spend any more time on here correcting my mistakes alberr will change the password ..........
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:40:11 (BST)

i thought it too! i really do hate it when people say to instead of too. however this ain't a formal negotiating document and you can all say what you want how you want as far as i'm concerned.
sonj <pedant when it matters>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:36:16 (BST)

carsten, good job you came back quickly (02:55:46 Br*t@s# Standard Time) i though we had imposters on here again!
sonj <ok, i am not going to spend all day on here, i'm going now>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:33:31 (BST)

Barbara, i'd be proud to be in the same category as you, robin, carol & the all the other women from 'over there'.
sonj
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:30:04 (BST)

Carol a pal e-mailed me chants from a SF gay pride parade and my favorite one was, "We're tired. We're cranky. And we don't like the government."
Barbara <Iloveaunionman@kenilworthave.com>
okayenoughimreallyoffnow, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:26:36 (BST)

Susan, you live in Santa Cruz? What a beautiful place I spent a lovely afternoon there on a strange journey I took to California and it was an unexpected grace. We always admit how old we are on the BBGB - I am younger than Carol and Sonj, older than Robin and Billy Bragg and thrilled to be alive at all. (another hint: I was born the day Elvis was on the Steve Allen show according to Lee Allen who is frequently wrong. I was busy and don't remember). I do remember my first concert though. It was an ALSAC concert (a Billy Bragg video tape for the person who knows what that is) with Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels, Bob Seeger, Andy Kim, the Brooklyn Bridge, Lou Christie (!), FUNKADELIC, and L. Dean Taylor.
Barbara <oops!hoggingthebbgbagaingoodnight>
carolisthecitizenqueen, ofbohemia - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:21:36 (BST)

Not calling you an american Sonj, which is an insult on this board.
Barbara <andintheworldcometothinkofit>
youareabohemianandsoisRobin, Arielwillbeshessolovelyandbrilliant - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:02:45 (BST)

Does anybody remember the 80's band the Bus Boys? They were from L.A., black rockers and advocates of the word "spade". They felt it had cool jazz connotations, was a single syllable therefore easy to use and remember, and was in their eyes, funny enough to use in songs over and over. "Minimum Wage Rock and Roll" was their big album (they were in the Beverly Hills Cop movie and soundtrack too.) I can't help but be offended by chink tho. My father in law uses it, and though he's come a long way in the past couple of years, he definitely means it as an insult. He fought in Korea and has a distinct dislike for Asians. Which reminds me, a Korean friend explained why "Oriental" is offensive. (Hint, it's a rug). Bobos in Paradise is a stupid fuzzy book by the way. I much prefer American Bohemians, which reminded me of Robin Carol and Sonj, who talk the talk and walk the walk.
Barbara <thankyouforthekindmessagesifyouweremarriedtobobingalls>
itwouldbeyour21stanniversarytoo, hesverycute - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 07:50:41 (BST)

In July's Q Mag, Bowie denies he asked Johnny Marr to Join the Glass Spider tour..
steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 07:10:19 (BST)

Susan I also saw the glass spider tour at Roker Park, Sunderland Football club stadium(any excuse for a mention) and it was CRAP and I mean real CRAP..Peter Frampton on guitar was some consolation....it was the middle of summer, but I swear I saw deep snow on the pitch, unless some bugger spiked my drink...My first gig was T.Rex at Newcastle City Hall..quickly followed by Free, Chuck Berry, Wings, Jethro Tull,Blind Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee, Lindisfarne and Ten Years After..Ive nbeen useless since, what year was it?..okok less of the sarcasm
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 06:53:23 (BST)

Aha! Getting a sense of people's ages what with the comments about shows they've been to! Very interesting. First show: David Bowie, Serious Moonlight tour. Worst show: David Bowie, Glass Spider tour. Heard that D.B. invited Johnny Marr to play with him and that J.M.s response was "Sorry, I've already seen 'Spinal Tap'" :) Nevski: I LOVE the 'mellow' version of Upfield. Brought tears to my eyes last fall. Another one I'd love to get my hands on a copy of (she says, knowingly ending her sentence with a preposition....) Oh, I was 13 at Serious Moonlight
Susan <youdothemath>
Santa Cruz, - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 05:37:41 (BST)

James, is Mary still raising a ruckus on the Moore message boards?
Pam
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 05:31:01 (BST)

Lazz, try: http://www.madstock.co.uk/
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 05:29:43 (BST)

Lazz, I am not familar with the history of the whole situation and what led up to it. I have been absent from this site for a while, taking a hiatus with Michael Moore, having been acused to terrible things becasue I am voting for Ralph Nader. (you dont' want to know the details believe me)
James
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 05:19:29 (BST)

steve, that link doesn't work (www.madstock.com) :-(
lazz
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 05:16:49 (BST)

anyone interested in the Ian Dury web site..they are raising money for cancer esearch...Take a look at the web site...www.madstock.com..thanks
steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 04:48:49 (BST)

What is Richard Branson like Jon
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 04:36:49 (BST)

What? I just get annoyed by 'lifestyles of the rich and vacant' journalism - if being a success means being like richard branson, I'm happy to be a failure. night night - i'm off to guzzle the sediment off some organic dog's egg soup.
jon
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 04:13:50 (BST)

james, not the last post. i've made similar statements at many different times in many different places in the hopes of making those doing the ridiculing realize just how destructive they are, and making those who might otherwise be made to feel inadequate realize that prescriptivists are not right and are to be laughed at. it's a very important message.
lazz
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:44:50 (BST)

Are we still talking about Luther, My question, is he worth this time and effort?
James
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:36:57 (BST)

yes, please, steve, i need some tea with milk, please
lazz
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:31:23 (BST)

shall I put the kettle on Laura?
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:26:55 (BST)

Jon, humour is still legal isn't it, even in socialism?...sheesh
Steve <if the cap fits wear it>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:25:33 (BST)

i would like to very seriously say that i think that prescriptive grammar and people who ridicule others based on their own personal pet peeves can be highly destructive to others who don't have the confidence to laugh at the imbecile doing the judging.
lazz
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:24:43 (BST)

I, like Robin, grew up in Brooklyn and often heard, "Lets go to the Chinks for dinner", never realizing how insulting it was. Growing up, my parents always said "the colored (coloured) people"they never said "nigger" as it was considered a terrible word. Many of the Southern Italians would say "Melenonza" prounced Mou-in-youn which translated means eggplant. Go figure.
James
New Paltz, NY - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:21:07 (BST)

'they're wearing' before someone crucifies me
C <jehovajehova>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:57:17 (BST)

Bob, my god did you catch me out there :)--- Jon, you got it spot on! --- Btw, Bogues it doesn't really matter where the 'Brits' are from if their wearing the same uniform, if you know what I mean. [The distinctions are perhaps true in Yokohama... :)]
Carsten <otherpeople!>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:55:46 (BST)

Pam, I agree with you, I never said I think it is ok, I just posted what I hear,People try to say it as a term of endearment, I am still surpried at what I hear on the radio and TV here.
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:55:27 (BST)

I guess you only get tobe an amusing socioeconomic group with a funny name if you've got a choice [ i.e. the money ] - anyone fancy reading about HoDos [ Homeless Dopeheads ] or PoPes [ Poorly Off Pensioners ] in their sunday suppliment?
jon
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:51:28 (BST)

"Im off for a lettuce leaf, lemon tea and a slice of black pudding??" Just one leaf?*****Embracing Ambiguity? Yeah, I can see that. And these ambiguities are also the source of ironic humor, too.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:50:45 (BST)

Steve, but then "darkie" was also a term of endearment in the white man's mind. I don't think the slaves ever looked at it that way, though.
Pam
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:37:01 (BST)

ambiguity...isnt it wonderful ...Life and this guestbook are full of it...Socialists buying/owning land and property..socialist, compassionate people threatening and being hurtful...socialists denying love and as we all need to be loved and be able to love, yet we deny love and become physically ill...we vote green yet drive cars and ride busses, use paper(wood) and wear leather....No-can be perfect and we all have to learn to embrace the ambiguites in our OWN LIVES, once you can do this you have a chance to see what another persons life is actually like through their eyes, sadly some people cannot see,understand or embrace their ambiguity as they have needs that must dominate over others so until then carry on letting your ego run wild, what you fear and dislike the most is what you deny in yourself. Im off for a lettuce leaf, lemon tea and a slice of black pudding??..bye
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:36:29 (BST)

Steve, I was dimly aware of this (trends do come quite late to sleepy Dayton), but after reading some the web items on this there was a "shock of recognition". Heres a site from Oz on the trend**** http://www.smh.com.au/news/0007/03/world/world05.html****I think the 60s-era political version of this was "radical chic".
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:30:13 (BST)

Boges is generalising a bit too widely -there are plenty of Welsh people and Scots who consider themselves British. There are people in Northern Ireland who certinly feel extremely British, and other people who don't. None of the above would thank you for calling them English however...
jon
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:27:19 (BST)

Jeff thanks for that site..brilliant more please
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:08:50 (BST)

First arriving in oz I was shocked at terms that could be deemed racist...news readers saying on the cricket report "The Paki's arrived in Brisbane today"..terms like Pome, paki,abo's brits, black fella, white fella,are almost terms of endearment here...dodgy line to be on though...
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:07:02 (BST)

Seriously not trying to be a dickhead (it comes naturally, I guess), but isn't affect a verb, Carsten? There I go with the commas again . . .
Bob
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:05:10 (BST)

Heres' a new US cultural category that I suspect may include most of Billy Braggs fan base. The Bourgouis Bohemians, or BoBos: *****http://www.public.iastate.edu/~sjwong/bobos.html******educated people who are in the proffessions, proffessional services, infotech, engineering, middle management, etc (or are married to people in these fields), with bourgouis incomes but bohemian tastes in culture and politics.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:04:59 (BST)

Luther, at least tell us how much the Presbyterian Church in the north of Ireland (sic!) pays you for posting under this horrible name...
Carsten
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:03:39 (BST)

Sorry, Jon, didn't see the *grins* bit. Anyway stop grinning!!!!
C
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:35:50 (BST)

Jon, easy: 'affect' =adjective, 'effect' =noun, then again what the hell do I know...
Carsten
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:34:02 (BST)

Alright Luther you can have your title back (old mephisto!) - And, Laura I'm sorry to say that with what you said re the translator/interpreter discussion you obviously scored an own goal. As far as "those of us in the profession" in Europe are concerned, the amjor distinction between a) a translator and b) interpreter are that a) works in reading/writing, and b) works in listening/speaking. I admit to having been doing business for years and I hope I understood what they meant :). (Actually the link you provide, Laura, proves exactly that point...)
Carsten <apartfromthatistillthinklutherisastinkingmaniacofanarrogantaristocratclaimingtobeananarchist>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:31:20 (BST)

Sometimes I affect an air of arrogance, but it frequently has the effect of making people hate me. Knowing that I'm despised by so many people troubles me deeply; it even affects my sexual performance. At such times, I find that the only cure is to rent movie with lots of special effects.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:17:41 (BST)

Bogues, why did you have to use the word 'Lindisfarne'...now you've set me off...Phil Collins declinded an offer to Join Lindisfarne in the early days, thank goodness for that
Steve
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:16:32 (BST)

(Sir John Gielgud) It's what I live for. (/Sir John Gielgud)
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:13:01 (BST)

Luther -I don't suppose you could settle an argument I was having today about the differnce in meaning betweewn the words 'affect' and 'effect' could you? *grins*
jon
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:08:27 (BST)

Minneapolis tickets are going on sale tomorrow morning. Does anyone know if 1st Ave. has general admission or reserved seating? I am pondering the 8-hour drive & this answer decides the cut-off date for my waffling… Derik, what do you mean? Isn’t “Hooters” a traditional-sounding name?
Kay
Kansas, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:03:39 (BST)

I'm glad you recognize the error of your ways, Lazz.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:53:31 (BST)

night night all - and dont stay up too late on this - remember - Its a school night!
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:13:16 (BST)

I'm using a crap kbd - not trying to type in any particular regional idiom btw... I'm hitting the right buttons but they don't always work.
jon
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:08:02 (BST)

Anyone remember any other songs bill plyed t sidmouth? - I'll be sorry I didn't go if there was much from the peel session era.
jon <joinedup>
- Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:05:43 (BST)

Sonj: I quite like Nick - do I need help??
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:04:48 (BST)

Carol, you are a boogie woogie.commie! :)
sonj <hope you and kate enjoy the little package>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:53:39 (BST)

Nevski, i even more wish i had gone now i know he sang Ingrid Bergman which i have yet to see live. I hope you get to meet your blonde friend in cyberland.
sonj 
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:51:03 (BST)

in socialistic utopian harmony, brian
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:47:43 (BST)

im gonna give up trying to do billy related stuff on this list from now on... cya
Nevski
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:47:00 (BST)

mmmmm - I wonder how this night will end??
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:46:49 (BST)

luther, you are indubitably correct on how you prefer the words translator and interpreter to be used. everyone else is incorrect, and should follow your stellar example of how to live and relate with others, especially how you correct everyone who does things wrong (i.e., different from you). . i agree with you 100%. you are infallible. i suggest you write a letter to the cambridge dictionary (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=translate*1+0) to inform them of their error. i would on your behalf, but i'm certain that your letter would carry far more weight as you are recognized as being indubitably correct. (the Cambridge dictionary *IN ERROR* provides the following definition (not that i would ever say that any usage which is NOT in the dictionary is wrong, unless it is not in agreement with luther’s preferences): translator noun A translator is a person whose job is changing esp. written words (but also sometimes spoken words) into a different language. now everyone pat luther on the head and tell him he is infallible*
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:41:47 (BST)

Just back in from seeinh el maestro at sidmouth folk festival tonite. he opened with a pretty mellow version of upfield, then progressed through a set in which he managed to pretty much evenly balance woodie songs with his own... particular highlights for me were... space race is over and ingrid bergman. the set just wasnt long enough (although he probably played over 1 1/2 hours...) was a great gig, and billy spoke much wisdom as usual. other highlight of the evening was having a particularly pretty blonde girl sitting next to me who new all the words.. my idea of heaven :-).. now, do i hope she's on the list or not? (grins)
Nevski
Enland, half england - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:36:41 (BST)

Luther, stop it! (though Bob's as bad if not worse). I'm now forced to tell all that you're not infallible - I'm an engineer working for an *American* company not a Japanese one (though I have worked for Japanese companies in the past). Anyway, the sun has finally risen over Fuji, though I find I'm on the wrong side of the hotel to enjoy it. Time to hit the shower and get ready for my train ride up North to Iwate (it's on the maps) for today's bout of being shouted at (Fujitsu in this case). Having a nice weekend staying with Japanese friends so I shall stay offline until I book into my sad lonely hotel on Sunday night. Tokyo Bay summer fireworks tomorrow, which will be good (New York July 4th? Mere sparklers...). Derik - on the manga front, seriously thinking of picking up a copy of "Heisei tanuki gassen pompoko" because of all the wacky scenes, but I wish I could find a subtitled version (Japanese is *still* bloody difficult). However, a more likely encounter will be having to take my 8 year old (out here with me thanks to Mileage Plus!) to see the latest Pokemon movie, a trial in any language. Sonj & Tett - phoned my Mum, she says all the ugliness has not got any closer than a mile or so away, which is a relief. Have a lovely weekend all....
Boguespierre <What a long night...>
Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:31:38 (BST)

Carol: every saturday morning me and Karl (my son) put the hi-fi on and have a dance and we both love things like Techno and punk - and the current fave is White Riot by the Clash
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:22:04 (BST)

Answer the question, Gaylord!!
Bob
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:18:23 (BST)

Luther is obviously still avoiding the question.
Bob
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:17:49 (BST)

sorry about the freeform quality of my messages with missing words and rubbish grammer - just join up the dots and you should be able to work out what I am trying to say
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:15:33 (BST)

Lazz is obviously still nursing her wounds after having been called out on the translator/interpreter distinction.
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:15:10 (BST)

just to recall my worst gig ever would have to be Billy Bragg at Barking Town Hall - it was a benefit gig for Carol Tonge (spelling?) - not cos of Bill (who I was told was great) but because I got very drunk before and then Bill came down to chat to us and here I was in front of an artist that I really liked and respected and all I did was slur my speech and try in conversations that I had not a clue about and made a complete arse of myself - I woke up the next morning, and as things started coming back to and my heart started to sink further and further down
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:08:12 (BST)

bob, luther is indubitably correct because he says so. he is infallible. more so than the pope. and don't you forget. *now pat luther on the head*
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 23:06:50 (BST)

I remember reading a fascinating account (possibly apocryphal) of the clean up required after a couple of thousand over-excited teenage girls saw The Fab Four at the Guildhall, but I fear that repeating it would rob Sonj of her deserved dignity. Great concerts at Portsmouth Guildhall - Dr Feelgood (October 1975), Elvis Costello (1977), Ian Dury (1977), Graham Parker with Southside Johnny & The Asbury Jukes (1977?), Eddie & The Hot-Rods with Squeeze and Radio Stars (1977). And my big sister saw Genesis supporting Lindisfarne in 1971 which I thought was way cool at the time....
Boguespierre
Cyber-Portsmouth, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:58:40 (BST)

When I was 39 and 40, I saw the Clash live--four times. And last year I saw Joe Strummer live. The audience was made up of 15 and 16 year-olds--my grandson's age. Tomorrow I am going to bring Back to Basics and Give Em Enough Rope to the office picnic. I am providing the boom box, so my bosses and coworkers will just have to conform to my musical taste.
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:55:37 (BST)

But i can't go to sleep without saying Happy Anniversay to the Ingallses.
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:52:32 (BST)

sorry, bogues had already put that better!
sonj <still awake but only just>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:51:27 (BST)

on the subject of pete w's post. the term he used very specifically refers to the food and not the people. it is a slang term for a chinese take away meal. I can see that it may be considered derogatory as the word 'chinks' for chinese people was probably in use along with the other racist terms for the various racial groups. We also talk about going for 'an indian' 'a chinese' or 'a macdonalds'. Personally i am too old to have wanted to see the clash live but i did see the beatles at portsmouth guldhall, so there!
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:45:53 (BST)

Bogues: further from what you were saying - its funny when people turn a term of abuse around to become a badge of pride - I think of terms like "queer" "Dyke" and bands like Niggaz With Attitude because these often throw white liberals into a state of panic A few months ago a friend of ours was in our car while we going out and on the car-stereo came Dog Tribe by Fundamental which starts with a message left on their answering machine by Combat18 - out friend went very quite and was shocked to think we were nazis and we had to explain that the song was actually and anti-racist one and that the band was made of an indian and a black guy
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:45:34 (BST)

on the subject of pedants. i loved the link that let to the orange mornington crescent site. i empathise with that man.
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:34:04 (BST)

Sitting up half the night, still digesting a pretty fair Chicken Kashmiri from the Yokohama Station Maharajah and cruising the Net, I come across this http://www.suntimes.com/dining/gaylord/index.html -- the world *is* all connected. Way to go, Luther!
Boguespierre <Need to get out more>
The wee hours, Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:23:20 (BST)

And me still passing for 29...
Bogues <Halfway down the other side of the hill>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:10:31 (BST)

Back home people say they are going to get *a* Chinese - subtle variant isn't it? Dog is indeed a respectable dish in Korea and parts of China, but the issue with certain establishments in the UK is where it is advertised as beef! And I don't think it's actually legal to serve dog, though I can't think of a good reason why not. Change of subject - I just realized it's nearly 24 years since I went to see The Clash in Southampton. How the Hell did that happen? (the time passing, not the gig...)
Bogues
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:08:00 (BST)

Luther, not to be a pedant, but how does Carol equal "y'all"?
Bob
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 22:02:31 (BST)

Luther, I didn't understand Pete's post either. I just didn't understand the term. Then, after other people used it, I did. People over here say they are going to get Chinese, meaning they are going to eat Chinese food, and I have always thought that was funny--using an adjective as a noun. I don't think eating a dog is any worse than eating a cow. I guess, as a meat eater, I could eat both, but I prefer vegetables.
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:58:07 (BST)

What I find amazing is that Barbara and Bob still seem like newlyweds. They are terrific together. Congrats Barbara and Bob!
Red Robin
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:50:53 (BST)

Hi Tettland, Lisa has just left. She was busy reading the stuff Billy posted a while back and i forgot to 'refresh' so she missed your posting. I'll pass on your hilsen. I'll mail you about the whole co-incidental day.
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:49:54 (BST)

The fact that Carol had no idea what I was talking about when I questioned Pete W's use of "chinky" is just further evidence that y'all aren't reading very carefully. See 18:07:33, Carol.
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:49:30 (BST)

It's quite fascinating when you consider the etymology and relative strengths of various racial terms and slurs. Interestingly, most English would not take offence (in fact the opposite) at being referred to as 'Brits' (though this would NOT be appreciated by Scots and Welsh). However, the term 'Paki' in the UK is definitely offensive and is often applied to any South Asian (i.e. Indians and Bangladeshis as well as Pakistanis). 'Jap' (or 'Nip') is usually meant offensively, even though it starts out just as innocently as an abbreviation. There are many clearly racist terms applied to people of colour in the UK, and even 'blacks' has a perjorative ring. Within our own islands, the terms 'Jock' (Scot), 'Taff' (Welsh) and 'Paddy' or 'Mick' (Irish) were originally merely slightly condescending, but are nowadays widely seen as offensive (in Northern Ireland the use of 'Taig' for Catholic is meant very offensively, even though it comes from a variant of the marvellous Irish name 'Tadhg' - which we picked for our third son). Even the word 'nigger' presumably had a fairly harmless origin as a variant of 'negro', yet it too has gradually strengthened over the generations from being a term of condescension to the ultimate racist hate word. Although it is hard to find fun in racial epithets, I can't help but be amused about what the French call the English - for several years we have taken a kind of pride when we heard that they called us 'les rosbifs', but thanks to our "little John Bullshits" they apparently nowadays prefer to call us 'les fuckoffs'...
Boguespierre <Waiting for sunrise over Fuji>
Yokohama, Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:49:09 (BST)

Congratulations, Bob and Barbara. I once got my mother a button that said "I love a union man." Actually, in San Francisco it was worn by gay labor activists, but my Mom wore it because she loved her husband who was a good union man and who was also named Bob.
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:44:31 (BST)

I had no idea what Luther was referring to. However, I live in a city with lots of Asians and lots of Chiniese restaurants (I live adjacent to Chinatown), and my Asian friends have objected to the term that I am not going to use now (out of respect for them).
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:40:32 (BST)

Just got back from the Stadium. A great day for a ballgame and a Yankee win. Jose Canseco hit a homer, the Yankees beat Oakland 12-6. Sitting in the front row behind the Yankee Dugout was Willie Nelson rooting for us. Interesting side note, today was Mousepad day for fans 14 and under sponsered by Verizon, no picket lines near the ballpark. They were a good two miles away on the entrance ramp to the Major Deegan.
1967 Yankee Fan
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:30:29 (BST)

My paternal grandparents from Brooklyn used the term "chinks" to refer to Chinese restaurants, Chinese food and Chinese or Asian people (which created many stirs in our family, as my mother was Asian/Filipina). This has been a commonly used term, much the way "nigger" has been used. Neither of them is acceptable.
Red Robin
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 21:06:09 (BST)

I'd like to add to Rich's vote for De Hems. I was last there during my Bachelor Party (weak term, but it was hardly a "stag" do) back in the summer of 89. They served up big (4 pint?) jugs of Oraanjeboom, and of course such was the nature of the event I had to drink one straight from the pitcher. The rest of the evening is lost to me, although my kind friends did take me outside and leave me to sleep it off in a gutter, where an officer of the law came within a hair of giving me the Euan Blair treatment (in much the same location as young Euan). I don't think I've ever been so thoroughly, hogwhimperingly drunk again since (cue quote about "putting away childish things").
Bogues 
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:57:47 (BST)

Count back from 100. Slowly. Think happy thoughts.
derik <Going home, and then off to class!>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:56:10 (BST)

21 years.. that impressive. wait till you reach the 30 year anniversary... derik... i haven't forgotten to breathe... grrr
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:53:31 (BST)

I was wondering what that was about... Bogues: Bring us back some manga from ol Japan.
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:52:47 (BST)

I think Luther's sensitive radar is correctly tuned when he queries the use of the word "chinky" to describe a Chinese take-out. If anyone is unfamiliar, it *is* commonly used in the UK but is undeniably based upon a fairly perjorative dimunition for a Chinese person - I know I used the term myself back in student days, though I wouldn't have used it to refer to a person, just the restaurant. I think this is because (in the UK at least) the many Chinese around the country have traditionally tended to be in the wider community rather than of it - of course nowadays I at least am far more understanding of East Asian cultures (smug git...). But stories of the discovery of seagulls and dogs in refrigerators are not entirely apocryphal, and are probably a reflection of the 'respect' with which some Chinese food suppliers regard their insensitive customers!
Boguespierre
Jet lag city, Nippon - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:47:22 (BST)

There is power in our union! I meant Verizon - no disrespect of course.
Barbara <September26worldwideprotestsagainstWTO@yourcityyourworld>
solidaritywithoutborders, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:18:51 (BST)

Sonj: I was indeed an amazing windmill, in the first line-up. It's so weird because after my posting this afternoon and I had a really strong hunch that you might be related to Lisa. The Chi link was one thing and I knew that there was the union link and, of course, Lisa was a big BB fan. I dismissed these ideas as too coincidental to be true . . . Well, what do you know! Hils Lisa.
Tettland <absolutely bloody flabbergasted!>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:15:52 (BST)

Congrats to you and Bob, Barbara. 21 years... wow.
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:09:43 (BST)

I am a member of the CWA, though not a Verzion worker - I hope they kick righteous butt! Today is the 21st wedding anniversary of Barbara and Bobingalls - and you are right Sonj, he does love me! And I love him.
Barbara <mushymushymushy@goonylove>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:04:07 (BST)

Ohhhhh yeah - that'll be the one
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 20:00:42 (BST)

Theo: The Marching Songs Of The Covert Battalions
The separated at birth (fraternal) twin of Pete C
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 19:53:37 (BST)

i know i am not really a communication worker any more, having been made redundant by BT, but i would like to send greetings to the comrades in the Communication Workers of America.
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 19:32:57 (BST)

i've wasted days of my life drinking in camden. good mixer, anyone? great CWA demo at bryant park this afternoon... 12,000 pissed off communication workers. hey, there is power in a union!
keri
brooklyn, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 19:24:40 (BST)

but what happened to the frog and frigate at fratton?!..welcome back brian. you have won a recording of 'mountain stage'.
sonj <aka mother when les is posting>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 19:06:55 (BST)

great club (not pub) - the double six - big pile of board games at the door which you can grab on your way in - so you can meet new friends while playing Operation or Mousetrap
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 18:53:17 (BST)

The chinky down my street?
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 18:28:22 (BST)

Theo--Alfred Noyes wrote the Highwayman, which was my favorite poem as a child. My mother had a book called "101 Best Loved Poems," and Thomas Hood's Song of the Shirt was also in it. I skipped Byron, Keats and Shelley and read those two poems. All the time. I loved them. As an adult, I introduced my daughters to poetry by giving very dramatic readings of The Highwayman. It always made Alicia, my older daughter, cry. I also liked Leigh Hunt's Abour Ben Adam. I was born a socialist, I guess. Learned it all from poetry. I must go to the Highwayman pub when I get to London and drink a toast to all the poets who taught me everything I know--the so-called minor poets!
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 18:09:08 (BST)

Maybe "darn sarf" a seagull in the no. 42 is considered outlandish, exotic cuisine...the chinky down my street got shut down when a health inspector found a neighbour's alsatian in the fridge...
pete w <urban myth? I think not!>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 18:07:33 (BST)

If you're gonna start talking 'West End' ? Then it's gotta be 'The Chandos' !
Bye.
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 18:04:25 (BST)

Great London Pubs - Fitzroy Tavern on Charlotte Street - where George Orwell used to get rat-arsed with George Bernard Shaw and The Newman Arms, Newman Street which is what the proles pub in 1984 is based on - both are round the back of Oxford Street
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 18:01:20 (BST)

They all are, derik. Especially 'The Flask'. Its name comes from the time of the plague when it sold 'safe water' in flasks. Not only that, The Highwayman, Dick Turpin drank there...as legend has it. Cheers..Hic.. Quiz Time : Who wrote the poem 'The Highwayman' that Phil Ochs brilliantly put music to ?
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:54:02 (BST)

Those pubs have all such traditional sounding names. Much nicer than the places around here.
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:46:23 (BST)

Sorry, but all of London's best pubs can be found by crawling down Upper Street, along Holloway Road, then up to Highgate Village and then onto Hampstead. If you can't manage all the 100-odd pubs on that route ? Head straight for Highgate Village where you'll find : The Duke's Head, The Flask, The Angel, The Rose & Crown, The Gatehouse & The Prince of Wales. That's it, I've talked myself into a pint. See ya all. Love,
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:38:07 (BST)

Apparently the Kebab and Calculator is in Bristol according to the site which Dyl posted, and not London as I suggested earlier. However, if you're looking for somewhere to drink in London, I would like to recommend De Hems, on the edge of Chinatown and right at the bottom of Dean Street, for some lovely pints of delicious Oranjeboom. Slurp.
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:28:13 (BST)

www.kuow.org is currently having a discussion about "new democrats" with patty murray and adam smith. you can listen on-line with real player and windows media, and phone in questions/comments at (800) 289-5869 or e-mail them in.
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:26:24 (BST)

I checked out dyl's working class clothes site. I particularly liked the COPS, etc. link. Did you know that tropical police shirts start at $33.75 (US)? This is a very important piece of information for colonialists.
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:19:40 (BST)

It was Hale 'n' pace. There was also an upside down buddy holly in one of the episodes. singing whilst hanging from the cieling. I haven't seen him in the charts since though.
Les Black
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:09:37 (BST)

Madness were in 2 episodes. Check out: http://www.ironworks.com/comedy/youngone/young_cd.htm for synopses and band details
Dyl
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:08:33 (BST)

Now it makes sense! Perfection IS boring... ahhh. The world has come into focus.
derik <must learn to be less perfect>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:06:08 (BST)

Comrades, brothers, sisters. Have you ever wondered what clothing you should be wearing? Well I've stumbled on the official clothing suppliers to the masses. Check out www.workingclassclothes.com
Dyl
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:05:45 (BST)

Q : "Do you dig graves?" - A - "Er, they're not bad!" I can picture them but sorry. The stand-up comic Arnold Brown was in that one though wasn't he (or was it 'Flood'?)? "Scottish & Jewish, Two racial stereotypes for the price of one" !
Theo
Londres, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:05:30 (BST)

Theo, Everybody Loves You Babe is my favorite anti-love song. Perfection is boring. That's why the women who post here are so much in demand. On another note, I have tried to email you but my messages get bounced back, so I just want to thank you for your contribution to the lovely gift.
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 17:04:01 (BST)

ok, who played the two grave diggers in the episode with the video.
Les Black
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:59:59 (BST)

Nice one, Les. I know I said members of Sonj's family were barred from the other 'edge-of-the-seat quiz....but, any ideas ? Cheers,
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:59:40 (BST)

Congratulations, Fenster. I have given up trying to talk people out of marriage--they just don't listen, and that includes my daughters (and even me). It's like trying to talk Steve into believing in God. Have a great honeymoon. We'll be waiting for you here and on the mail list.
Carol
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:58:29 (BST)

Those Murdoch inspired riots have happened in the US, but on a much smaller scale. Wish I could remember where. But publishing photos and addresses of convicted child abusers had not prevented it from occurring, it just fuels the fans of hate. Most child abuse, both sexual and the beating kind, go on in families and go unreported, anyway. The riots just sound like an excuse to let out a lot of unfocused hatred and rage.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:56:37 (BST)

subterranean homesick blues. Don't nedd a weather mack.....
Les Black <ewrwe>
wer, wer - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:55:11 (BST)

weren't Amazulu on The Young One's? Or is my memory playing a terrible trick?
dyl
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:49:31 (BST)

'Tank Park Salute', that was a tribute to Uncle Billy's Dad. There's no Irony in that song. Although, he did perform it during the exact same gig, if that helps ? Ps, don't forget Jools Holland on 'The Young One's', which Bob Dylan song did his band perform ?
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:34:31 (BST)

Much better choice, Rich. I only had heard Tank Park Salute from the show. It's on Best of Mountain Stage Vol. II.
no one
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:34:12 (BST)

Is Tank Park Salute particularly ironic? My guess (only having heard two of the songs from this concert) would be Everybody Loves You Babe...?
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:31:16 (BST)

i'm bringing my own cheddar
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:26:50 (BST)

Eat cheese!? Nope.
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:25:56 (BST)

Theo--Tank Park Salute?
No one too important
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:19:00 (BST)

here we go - the definitive answer - www.phill.co.uk/comedy/young/epguide.html (ps. Sayles band were called Radical Posture)
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:18:39 (BST)

derik... no tape?... no philly for me... what am i gonna do there? eat cheese and stare at the liberty bell? *bangs head on desk*
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:16:25 (BST)

"Hey - I'm depressed - it's Nine Below Zero". That was a great song. Don't forget Motorhead Ace Of Spades too.... No-one's had a go at Theo's BB question yet -
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:16:00 (BST)

Um B-spierre, I wasn't saying it was better I was more maligning the people involved in this debacle. I have considered leading all these people to a child doctor's office and scream: "Quick there's a paediatrist in there". Of course there reaction would only be disturbing/amusing until they set fire to the place of course. Still, what would you expect from people like those pictured in the Guardian? So glad I'm going back to Oz. Oh hang on ....
dk london
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:15:35 (BST)

I had a tape of many episodes and it got eaten up by a vcr... Vivian's mum was in the pub.
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:14:33 (BST)

Kebab and Calculator - of course - couldn't think what it was called - Nine Below Zero also appeared but I cannot remember which episode
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:13:17 (BST)

go brian... go brian!!!
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:09:46 (BST)

Rip Rig and Panic were in the party one called "Interesting". in "Oil" alexi Sayle sang "Dr Martin Boots". The Damned were in Nasty singing "Video Nasty". Dexys were in Bomb singing "Jackie Wilson Says"
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:07:38 (BST)

Ah yes, now there's a pub in London that's worth a visit - The Kebab and Calculator. Top venue.
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:06:20 (BST)

here's an idea... let's get them all on tape and i'll come over to watch em with ya.... wasn't one of there mum's in the pub too? or worked there? it's been too long... need bbc!
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:03:16 (BST)

Ooops - everyone's talking at once! Sorry Brian...
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:02:42 (BST)

I think it was 'most marshmallows up one nostril', and 'world's stickiest bogey'. Rick had the 'world's stupidest bottom-burp' after eating all the laxative pills at the start. I'm still in two minds about the Madness song though.
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:01:21 (BST)

Keri, in the 'Oil' episode, I thought the band was 'Rip, Rig & Panic'..or something like that anyway. I'm confused now. Madness may well have been on twice though.
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:01:04 (BST)

Toxteth O'Grady, USA - worlds biggest bogey and most marchmallows up one nostril - Rik was the worlds biggest bottom burp
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 16:01:03 (BST)

They performed Our House in the street and ended up fighting and then performed House Of Fun in the local pub
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:59:12 (BST)

Toxteth, World's Biggest Bogey & The World's Biggest Bottom Burp.
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:57:45 (BST)

episode was oil... song was house of fun!!! i'm know i'm right!!!
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:57:14 (BST)

Madness were on The Young Ones twice
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:56:44 (BST)

Whilst we're waiting for Keri, what song is Billy introducing here : "Watch the Chorus just drip with Irony, 'cos that's what Irony does, it drips...It's all over the inside of our van, it's terrible ! " - Billy Bragg - Mountain Stage, West Virginia.
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:56:38 (BST)

can anyone remember either of the world records which I hold?
Toxteth O'Grady
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:56:08 (BST)

no... i'm sticking with my answer... hold on... will confer with the girl who has it on tape...
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:53:36 (BST)

You bloody cheat, Rich. Well done though.
Quiz Bloke
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:53:18 (BST)

I love quizzes, me
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:53:05 (BST)

in the middle of our street
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:52:18 (BST)

Our House
Rich
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:51:48 (BST)

Keri, erm wrong answer I'm affraid. Very, very Close though.
Quiz Bloke
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:51:02 (BST)

house of fun!!! what do i win?
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:49:09 (BST)

We're on different buses Pollution, but we're both using petrol. BOMB
B
L, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:48:25 (BST)

Quiz Time : What song did Keri's 'Madness' perform on 'The Young One's' ?
Bamber Magnusson
Starter For Ten So I'll Finish, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:41:52 (BST)

derik, when madness was on the young ones... now that was good tv!
keri
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:34:17 (BST)

Thanks Brian. I couldn't quite remember it... The Young Ones was recieved well in the US by the more punk-type people here, I know that. My friends and I loved it a couple years back when they started showing it on cable... Seeing Dexys Midnight Runners on there was a delight too.
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:33:29 (BST)

pollution, all around, sometimes up, and sometimes down, but always around, pollution are you coming to my town, or am I coming to yours? b ut we are both using petrol! BOMB
Brian
Londond, Uk - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:27:07 (BST)

good pub in london... where should we start? what are you looking for?
keri
bklyn, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:08:10 (BST)

Good luck, Fenster. I'll hold off on my comments about marriage for a few years out of consideration for you. ;)
Red Robin
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 15:03:51 (BST)

And logically "Bob" is backslang for... Bob. Boomshankar!
B
Y, JP - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:50:07 (BST)

That's right, derik. Before you (and Carol..and Billy) the people's poet was Rik. "Oh Neil, Neil, Orange Peel". How was that series received over in the States ?
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:50:06 (BST)

"The Young Ones" as in Vivian, Neil, Ric, and Mike?... The People's Poet!
derik
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:47:48 (BST)

Does that make Yobbo back-slang for Obboy then ?
T
L, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:47:35 (BST)

Yob is back-slang for Boy
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:46:21 (BST)

Yob for back-slang for Boy
B
L, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:45:26 (BST)

Fenster, Best of Luck. Hope it all goes well and may the seed of your loin be fruitful in the belly of your woman (last bit a quote from 'The Young One's). Take care & congratulations.
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:43:30 (BST)

Hi all. Just wanted to tell the flock that I tentatively will be attending the Philly show, but I wouldn't want to fleece you, it's possible that I'll have second thoughts because is a school night... I ordered the tickets when the show was going to be Saturday. Anyway, I'm going off line for about 10 days now -- the little matter of a marriage and honeymoon to attend to. I'm glad to see people calming down after the recent brouhaha. Let's try to remember that just because we don't see the people on the other end doesn't mean they don't have feelings.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
Play nice!, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:39:31 (BST)

An 'agressive', 'surly' youth (says my dictionary). A bit of Riff-Raff really, not the Billy kind though. A thug, hooligan etc.
SLH
Springfield, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:32:48 (BST)

Robin/derik, simple. 'Yob' is short for 'Yobbo'
Santa's Little Helper
Springfield, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:29:45 (BST)

My question, too. We don't see too many yobs around here.
Red Robin < >
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:27:49 (BST)

Good morning... What is a 'yob'?
derik <excuse my ignorance of British-English slang>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:24:53 (BST)

He'd probably steal your binoculars & booze Maam. Anyway, maybe he should go for a drink in 'The Blind Beggar' on the Whitechapel Road. Walk in there and tell 'em that you can't find any decent pubs. You won't complain again. Last bloke who did was Jack 'The Hat' McVitie. Go careful .....won't ya !
Reggie Kray <Guest of the Queen>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:21:35 (BST)

I did hear him! Sounds like quite a charming young man - fancy a trip to the races? Our English boys are far too pale and scrawny for me these days...
QM <old-liz@ginpalace.com>
London, The British Empire - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:15:31 (BST)

Trevor, What's wrong with 'old men' ? If it wasn't for the likes of me fighting in two World Wars the likes of you wouldn't have a London left. There's gratitude for you. I sometimes wish I never bothered. You should be happy to go into them pubs and buy the likes of me a drink, you might end up learning something from us. Respect for starters ! If the Queen Mum could hear you now, bless her. Blooming cheeky young whipper-snapper. Oooh, I do like a good moan now and again, thanks for the opportunity.
Gerry Atrick <haveYouTriedTheRitz@Piccadilly.posh>
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:09:50 (BST)

Trevor - you don't really work for Budweiser, do you?
Boguespierre <Time for a beer Jihad!>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:04:10 (BST)

And your problem with us would be...?
Bogues <Yob rapidly turning into old man>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:02:40 (BST)

Can anyone reccommend a good bar in London? I've been living here for two years and it's all old men and yobs. Um, Hi Bill
Trevor <tdavis1@budweiser.com>
London, UK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 14:00:29 (BST)

Tettland. Are you Mr Steve Tett. ex-windmill, ex-whiskey girl, Ex-southsea resident, ex-brighton resident?
Les Black <starphazedboy@yahoo.com>
southsea, just a piece of land - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 13:35:34 (BST)

That's the One....Chicken Fried rice..and not a bastard chuck in sight...
Steve
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 13:20:13 (BST)

From the site Bogues just posted....."She said that in the three years she has been in London she has come to the conclusion "British boys really suck". Despite their "sexy" accent, His idea of a conversation is to ask two questions and then...feel entitled to stick his tongue down your throat"Mary-Catherine Lader ...whats wrong with that??(:)...I was gonna say 'Aussie Girls Suck'..but my mam in Sunderland might read this...ok Im off...Are Southern boys skinny and scrawny..lolol
Steve
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 13:16:51 (BST)

Steve - Sounds like you're talking about the Tong Fung, next to the garage and just across from Browney Lane where I lived for 3 years (Meadowlfield WMC on the corner). Basically a blue nissen hut with a suitably adapted Chinese menu (mainly chips and curry sauce) served up by the incomprehensible Sam Fung and his kids, who jumped from Cantonese to Geordie with astonishing dexterity. I was a widely tolerated outsider in the area after about a year, and had no shortage of sponsors for membership of Browney WMC, despite (perhaps because of) a memorable occasion when I tried to play pool after a significant ingestion of Durham Golf Course's finest fungi, and fulfilled everyone's expectation of just how a student should behave...
Boguespierre
The real Orient - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 13:13:04 (BST)

Bogues was Meadowfield a Culture shock...I was in a take-away up the front street one night after a sales appointment in Bishop Auckland about 1985/6..real scary psycho's in there...laup fun dee na krop...alreet bonny lad im garn ta beed noo..spot the geordie, I have avague memory of the beer in pompey being shit, I ended up on the Isle of Wight somehow
Steve
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 13:02:17 (BST)

Steve, it beats it by a mile. It must put many of the nastier elements, over there, right in their place. I can just picture them mumbling into their pints (as long as that's all they do). btw, 49% - that's higher than I would have thought, 2% more and you're talking majority. You should be over-the-moon ! Laters,
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:55:44 (BST)

Want to know why Steve, Tett and I all had to move overseas? Check it out at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_873000/873862.stm
Boguespierre <Bagged myself a lovely New England girl years ago>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:53:41 (BST)

I saw wonderful T-Shirt today .May just beat the one PeteC saw with 'recovering Catholic' on... I went up the Sunshine Coast for an appoinment and went into a cafe for a herbal Tea(:) at the next table there was an Aboriginal Women ..her T-Shirt read..100% Australian....does the humour and the tragedy translate abroad...bloody great
Steve
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:45:26 (BST)

Steve - According to my own research precisely 0% of Americans would vote for a Geordie living in Australia, so even if you start going to church regular you're totally fucked...
Boguespierre <Air-conditioned hotel room - mmmmmm!>
Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:42:14 (BST)

...This was just sent to me from the Positive Atheist group, of which Im a memeber(I hate being a member of anything, arghhh)I cut and psted this so dont attack me for any words you dont like......"Being an atheist is still "the most discriminated-against characteristic, of the eight tested in the research," according to the latest Gallup poll asking who people would vote for for U.S. President. Only 49 percent would vote for an atheist, while 59 percent would vote for a homosexual, 92 percent would vote for a black, and 95 percent would vote for a woman. This figure is up from 1958, when only 18 percent would have voted for an atheist. No other group has ever gone lower than 26 percent, which was how many people would have voted for a homosexual in 1987 (when the homosexual category for this poll began)....................... As for religious preferences, 94 percent would vote for a Catholic?... (Kennedy), 94 percent would vote for a Baptist (Carter; Clinton), and 92 percent would vote for a Jew (VP candidate Lieberman), but only 79 percent would vote for a Mormon. This makes our meager 49 percent look like something to be very concerned about...
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:36:19 (BST)

Luther i am not ignoring your interesting remark about the picket line song. Please expand.
sonj <off to sort out the washing machine dillemma and no more dabbling online today!!!!>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:34:05 (BST)

under the motorway bridge, just down the road from our house in havant, someone has written i love the amazing windmills. was that one of your old flames?
sonj 
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:31:02 (BST)

well, as lazz said, the world's a village. I take it you were an amazing windmill Tett! You can catch up with them at http://www.go.to/transmission and http://www.sms.port.ac.uk/les/ . I am Lisa's Mum of course. ( i was a child bride). Just before Lisa and Les got married i also went to the wedding of Stuart and Becky who i work with at port solent. Jon has a copy of transmission's CD. I think its great but i am a bit biased.
sonj <proud.mother@home >
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:28:19 (BST)

And that should read, "Ooops, that should read "I used to be in a band with Lisa's ex-boyfriend, Jon Callender." Sorry
Tettland <oops, i did it again!>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 11:58:24 (BST)

Ooops, that should read "I used to be in a band with him".
Tettland <wishing he could type>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 11:56:22 (BST)

BOGUES: Yes all the pubs you mention are still there and as popular as ever with pretty much the same crowds (give or take different haircut or two!) Norma Jeans changed its name to Havana Bar and has become very trendy showing local artists work. Attracts some unsavoury types at weekends though. SONJ: thanks for the email. I have a feeling that the Lisa and Les you mention are very well known to me. Used to be a band with Lisa's ex-boyfriend, Jon Callender. I was quite good mates with Lisa. Her husband Les (Black?)was the guitarist in the same, albeit after I left. I bumped into him about a year ago when I was in Pompey. Lovely fella. Is it the same?
Tettland <tettland very much agreeing with bogues>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 11:54:23 (BST)

Luther, I was gonna mention that when I saw Sonj's post. Wasn't it on the back of the Liverpool Dockers Strike ? How were you involved, I take it you weren't just correcting his grammar (just teasing) ?
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 11:29:27 (BST)

By the way, Sonj: I helped Bill write "Never Cross A Picket Line". Sort of.
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 11:19:39 (BST)

Les and Lisa are much better qualified to answer about the pubs in Southsea but they are currently celebrating their wedding anniversary somewhere in Oxford. The red Lion is indeed a bit scary but they are cheap, do cheese and onion toasties, and in the summer the front is open. Also the staff are very nice.
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:51:55 (BST)

"Still, it'll distract the thugs and pig ignorant from beating up on asylum seekers or setting fire to black people or blowing up gay pubs in Soho for a while." - I can't really see how this can be any better. Have you read some of the comments from the organisers of this thing in Paulsgrove? What's the betting that if any gay couples are living in that estate they've found their way onto the "list"?
Boguespierre <My Mum lives less than a mile from the mob>
Anywhere but England - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:33:15 (BST)

Quick thing about NoW. Agree with the scum thing - blah, blah. However, it is not just them. Remember Sidney Cooke or whoever it was trapped in a police cell for his own safety. From Michael Luenig, Oz cartoonist: Late last night when all was dark/I thought I heard a moron bark/And as the sound began to die/Iheard another one reply./And then the sound became a din/and more and more morons joined in/And then suddenly I relaised/That they were getting organised./My blood ran cold, my skin turned grey/Remembering election day/Was not so terribly remote/and morons had the right to vote.Australia has some nasty things/the crocodil, the fish that stings/the snake, the spider and the shark/but worst of all, the moron's bark. The ignorant, the racist, the prejudiced, those racked with beer and hatred are always there. All NoW (okay so remove the word all) has poked them with a stick to wake them up. Still, it'll distract the thugs and pig ignorant from beating up on asylum seekers or setting fire to black people or blowing up gay pubs in Soho for a while.
dk london
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:20:30 (BST)

Pubs in Southsea (as a service for possible visitors reading the Guestbook - information current as of ~1980): The Palmerston (where we all hung out in 1976, hair halfway down to our bums; cheap Ind Coope mild produced farts of astonishing toxicity); The Portland (sleepy hideaway when I celebrated my 19th birthday there with 19 Pernods, gradually evolved into punk thrash house, and even later to some ghastly horror called Norma-Jean's - memorable for Joe Jackson walking in one night with entourage who immediately put on several of his records on the juke box); Portsmouth Irish Club (cheap booze and tolerant bar-staff for thirsty teenagers at Led Zeppelin leaning Friday discos - and my uncle was President which helped); The Apsley (always hideously crowded with proto-yachting set, but within range of a whiff of sea air); India Arms (Poly student hang out, occasional waft of an illegal smile from the garden, Gales HSB for a more legally approved high). Any of them still there Sonj?
Boguespierre
Nostalgiaville, Abroad - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:19:42 (BST)

notjon, thanks for playing but, sorry, the answer's not 'Great Leap Forwards'. The Billy song I'm asking about has no peers, when it comes to Irony. Steve, I'll be driving up in me moat-ah and I can't wait. Kim, I wish....I wish...(sigh)..Love,
Theo
London, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:12:23 (BST)

Sonj: Actually my folks live next door to The Portsdown, halfway up the hill. For the last 3 summers (but not this) I've been renting a house at Port Solent when we come to visit my folks. Better than cramming selves and 3 kids into modest retirement home of my elders, and only 70 quid a night cash in hand to the yacht-owning oppressor of the proletariat who owns it (rather a nice fellow, actually) which is way cheaper than a hotel. But you're right about the pubs - when prices in England seem high to someone who's just arrived from Tokyo you know things are getting out of hand.
Boguespierre <It's 6.00 pm out here, and some bugger just turned off the office air-conditioner>
Sweaty Yokohama, Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:03:35 (BST)

SONJ: "...the green pub on the corner in the precinct, opposite somerfields." Is that the Red Lion pub you're referring to? I worked there as a barman for a couple of months about seven years ago. Scary place!
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copehagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:49:47 (BST)

£2.30 for a pint of cider! Even though I don't drink the stuff that sounds like heaven (though Port Solent is still posh...). It would cost nearly double that here (soft focus, golden tones, the Hovis tune plays as he remembers the good old days...) Do you ever drink in Southsea?
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:42:55 (BST)

cider is two pounds a pint there, two pound thirty, at least, in port solent.
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:21:31 (BST)

DK - it was obvious reading your posting that you were spouting total crap. Except that you were astonishingly accurate! Yes folks: http://www.fujisan.demon.co.uk/USPresidents/plist4c.htm#diedin
Bogues
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:19:52 (BST)

Bogues, it's the green pub on the corner in the precinct, opposite somerfields. I may just have been lucky with the docker's CD but it will be interesting to see how the shop develops. I'll wave to your mum on my way to work at port solent.
sonj 
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:18:48 (BST)

Doesn't matter who gets elected as US Prez, it is the VP which matters. Any Pres elected in year divisable by 20 (ie: 80 Reagon; 60 JFK; 40 Roosevelt?; 20; 00 and so on) dies in office - okay so RR is the exception but he atleast got shot and was never really compus mentus anyway. There may be one other exception but I can't remember when Garfield or McKinley were in - Abe lincoln was elected in 1860 - I will have to count on US guys to fill in the holes and support or shoot down this theory. Also there is another theory involving the names Bush and Nixon that I can't remember. So if Bush gets elected what are the chances of him inhaling his entire face and being found face down on a mirror with a credit card in one hand and a five dollar in the other? Gore, sucked into a tree muncher while making compost?
DK LONDON
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:12:47 (BST)

SONJ: Glad to hear it. I thought we would have our very own Eastenders-stylee soap opera at the BBgb. BOGUES: Welcome back. Re: Paulsgrove - haven't seen the pics but the placard "messages" tell me quite a bit. Glad to be here, but depressed at the behaviour of my fellow human beings,
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 09:04:02 (BST)

Sorry, me again. For those of you interested in the riots in Portsmouth I found these links to the Guardian (most recent first): http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4049913,00.html http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4049907,00.html http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048914,00.html Happy to be here, http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048556,00.html
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:57:59 (BST)

Tettland, my relationship with Carsten is of a more fraternal nature. Alberr is, of course, my one and only true love!
sonj
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:49:19 (BST)

Paulsgrove has hit the front page of the guardian today. Picture of two cute kids in baby buggies with placards saying ''don't house them, hang them'' and ''kill the 'paedophiles' in it''.
sonj <alberr is on the train@havant>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:44:48 (BST)

SONJ: Hvorfor elsker du Carsten? (Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:09:11 (BST))Jeg troede at du elskede Alberr? STEVE: Yes, Tett, is unfortunately (you can imagine the knicknames) my real name. I have no family connection with the NorthEast of England as far as I know but then my knowledge of my family history is pretty sketchy (though i DO know who my father is, for those quick witted souls on the BBgb ...). Keep the red flag flying,
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:42:31 (BST)

Alberr : yes, I had heard about the Portsmouth situation and i knew about the background but thanks anyway. Sounds very ugly. I check out the Guardian website on regular basis and they've been running stories on and around the issue. I even know the head of Youth Services for Portsmoth CC and my mum told me he got called out to try to quell the situation on the first night that it started going off. NoW is scum (but then I wouldn't expect to find too many disagreements with that statement here). Peace,
Tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:34:39 (BST)

Meadowfield food? I think the degree of exoticism to be found in the average take-out meal depended upon just how widely the seagull in question had travelled before being incorporated into the #27 with bamboo shoots (as per infamous conviction of the Kwai Lam in Durham City ca 1979).
Boguespierre <You should have seen what I just ate for lunch...>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:32:43 (BST)

The language is simialr Mike??..but the food is er...NOT...and a man who stayed in Meadowfield will understand
Steve
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 08:04:39 (BST)

That was beautiful, Mike. Thank you. I have finally found a home. *weeps tears of joy*
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 07:32:31 (BST)

Also for Lazz: http://www.lazarus.demon.co.uk/pedant/
Bogues <Well maybe just one little toe>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 07:29:30 (BST)

For Lazz: http://world.std.com/~ric/what_is_int.html
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 07:17:36 (BST)

So, Steve, was that Thai or Geordie? Or possibly both, for all I and 99% of the human race can tell...
Boguesb
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 07:10:05 (BST)

Theo how are you getting to the Sunderland game on the 19th..
Steve
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 07:02:37 (BST)

Languages, Im 6 weeks into a course on Thai language,(breaks the boredom) and bugger me its worse than Geordie??...so Chan ja pai non, soiy mak?
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:58:14 (BST)

Fear,Ego,Competition,humans... *sigh*...Pam I know you love yourself, so it doesnt matter what anyone says..the denial is their's
Steve <thickgeordiebastard@humanist.com>
no chuffer rings me, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:48:43 (BST)

Jack of all trades is very descriptive of what I do, though I much prefer "troubleshooter" as this conveys an image of steely-eyed resolve and firm jawline (as in very ancient British TV show of that name). Language does indeed play funny tricks with the way people perceive meaning, but then we get a lot of that on this forum where we're all (supposedly) using just English. Without even daring to dip a little toe into the warfare that intermittently rages on the BBgb about who meant what, it's interesting to note that nearly every forum or mailing-list I've ever dropped in on tends to have these flame wars going on, and that they rarely have anything to do with actual opinions. If someone gets a bit heated when disagreeing with the political statements of another then at least it's a part of the cut and thrust, but the personal stuff seems to get way out of hand. I don't have an answer to it all, but I'd suggest a good start is for us all to ALWAYS assume another person did not mean ill by their posting unless it is absolutely clear that they did. And even if they did, try (just try...) and let it go. But that's easy for me to say, because I'm so bloody nice...
Bogues
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:40:29 (BST)

yes, luther, as always you are indubitably correct, because you feel that you are correct and that you are all knowing. now go make some important decisions for the proletariat.
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:34:25 (BST)

I'm a member of the American Translators Association, Lazz. I, too, work in the profession. And you are wrong. "Translation" is written, "interpretation" is oral. That is all.
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:31:12 (BST)

bogues, the point of my post had much less to do with whether or not you held the title of translator, and much more to do with the fact that the person in the role of translator got more complaints than would have been expressed had there not been an intermediary. my title was coordinator of russian affairs (you can have fun with that one) but jack of all trades/trouble shooter and solver would have been far more descriptive.
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:18:55 (BST)

Sonja - (referring to Weds 08:42 posting) - which pub in Portchester is the CD shop next to? I suppose I should e-mail this, but it *is* music related (maybe I can send my Mum in to buy obscure records for me...).
Boguespierre
Just Visiting, Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 06:01:38 (BST)

Well I suppose I am an "added value" translator if that helps keep the peace. The ability to speak Japanese is just one part of my repertoire, along with technical know-how, infinite patience, and rugged good looks (of course).
Bogues
Dai-Nippon - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 05:27:37 (BST)

those of us in the profession use both "translator" and "interpreter" to mean someone who does simultaneous translation. however, since mike isn't doing simultaneous translation, "interpreter" is less correct *pats luther on the head*
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 05:25:00 (BST)

lazz, on the nude beach gay/straight question. It isn't about people having hang-ups so much--rather it provides gay men cruising opportunities. It can be a drag (or worse) to hit on a straight guy.
Susan
Santa Cruz, - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 05:22:18 (BST)

Is it too late to take back a third of my apology?
Bob
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 05:00:59 (BST)

he may be an engineer, but i distinctly recall him mentioning translating to american engineers
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 04:40:15 (BST)

Mike isn't a translator. (Nor is he an interpreter, which is the correct term for the occupation you describe in your post, Lazz.) He's an engineer working in America for a Japanese company.
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 04:35:25 (BST)

bogues, i used to translate too and i found it amazing how some people would say things to the translator which they a) would never have said if the translator hadn't been an intermediary, and b) they take their anger out on the translator
lazz
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 04:29:48 (BST)

Just visiting. Trying to introduce a little harmony into the fraught world of ion implantation. I have this fascinating job which involves flying halfway round the world to be shouted at by irate Japanese engineers. I then come back to Massachusetts to shout an English translation at American engineers. It's a living...
Boguespierre
Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 03:52:41 (BST)

Pam, Luther, Pete C., everyone: I'm truly sorry. Goodnight.
Bob L.
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 03:39:25 (BST)

You're back in Japan, Mike? What happened to Connecticut?
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 03:12:57 (BST)

By the way, being back here has reminded me of some background to the Tokyo 1985 concert which I posted as MP3s. My friend Colin who actually taped it wrote to remind me that Billy was in Japan on what was called the Atomic Cafe Tour which involved a visit to Hiroshima for the 40th anniversary of the bombing (August 6th I think). He played the same club in Tokyo of July 28th and August 11th (the recording), touring various locales in Japan in between. It'll be exactly 15 years ago tomorrow. Where *did* all that time go? Isn't it great that he's still the same only more so? I, too, am still the same only more so, but in my case that sadly a reference to body weight....
Boguespierre
Yokohama, Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 02:56:59 (BST)

My goodness, you log of for a couple of days travel and chaos breaks out in the classroom. All of you - sit down and behave. Sonja - I am incredulous at the thought of riots in Paulsgrove, only out of concern for my folks who live 50 yards past the town line in Portchester. However, Paulsgrove is a classic site for the English style of rioting, which invariably seems to take place in August and over the wrong things - presumably those involved want to string up alleged paedophiles? Is this what "Lovers Town Revisited" is supposed to be about? It's certainly the type of thing it always makes me think about, though more of 1980s vintage riots. Helps me remember why I hate England so much while wishing I loved it more. Better off out here (though it ain't half hot Mum...).
Boguespierre <Citizen of the World (parts)>
Yokohama, Japan - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 02:51:33 (BST)

Bills bio page at sidmouth http://www.mrscasey.co.uk/sidmouth/billy.html
volapuke
- Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 00:37:30 (BST)

carol... let me know how your trip with derik goes.. your input might make a difference if he comes up to new york or not. just joking, derik!!! speaking of the occupational world of librarians--why do they suck?--no correction, why do the librarians/archivists i work with suck? and i did get my plane ticket to portland today... welcome more debt. but as my friend wrote yesterday... "if you let money get in the way of what you want to do... it will stop you." and isn't being happy at work really the whole point? it really has nothing to do with money... gone painting.
keri
bklyn, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 23:42:04 (BST)

**** BUZZZZZ **** uh. is it 'the great leap forward' magnus? I always thought that was supposed to be an ironic song. maybe he was being watched by a load of Virginia coppers at the gig and wanted them to understand he was being ironic, rather than smash his gear up and bust him for 'unamericanism' ??
notjon
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 23:27:32 (BST)

THEO, what a brave man you are to post your number despite knowing full well that total psychopaths might see it. Aren't you afraid of any presumably young female art students, for example? STEVE: I don't recall ever making you or any other subject of Her Majesty blush, Mr. Hossack. Or nearly. Surely you are thinking of someone else. I don't know why the tape you sent was sent back...don't believe they've ever turned the town ON, but I'll send you another address.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
BFE, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 23:26:24 (BST)

A foot's length?
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:45:53 (BST)

elephantitis
nevski
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:45:36 (BST)

Wallet size.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:44:08 (BST)

For shoe fetishists, it would be foot size.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:44:03 (BST)

car size, i think
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:42:16 (BST)

The size of a ram's horn? The size of a ewe's bleat? The size of something soft and wooly.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:42:03 (BST)

If not ego, then what, lazz??? (she asks all innocent-like)
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:36:38 (BST)

i don't think sonj was referring to ego size.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:29:17 (BST)

lazz--the size of an ego has an inverse relatioship to other sizes, and take it from me, it can ruin any sensual fun you are expecting to have.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:26:55 (BST)

Susan--I am going to take Derik on a train trip to Santa Cruz on August 20. Will you be around, and would you be interested in meeting another forum librarian? You may email me privately if you are.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:25:37 (BST)

size definitely does not matter, sonj.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:25:23 (BST)

lazz, is this going to lead to a 'size matters' debate :)
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:18:34 (BST)

slh, you mean you aren't a cute little lad from lapland ( i love those outfits ) i will have to go and consult the family simpson fanatic ....
sonj <are you still at work???>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:17:21 (BST)

there is a nude beach at a state park near me, and i just found out something which has me absolutely befuddled: there is a gay end and a straight end. i just don't get it. i would have thought that those who were willing to wander around nude in public wouldn't have these little hangups.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:14:21 (BST)

thanks nevski (and theo). Alberr has to be in London tomorrow so i don't think i can go. Hope you have a lovely time.
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:14:15 (BST)

sonj, i have a spare ticket... but its not sold out he is billed to start at 8 and i reckon its 3 1/2 hours from pompey (used to do it a few years ago. if u want a ticket go to the box office at the sidmouth tourist information desk
nevski <nevski@lineone.net>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:03:57 (BST)

not that it really matters .. the vanguard of the democratic party has made it's decision
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:01:50 (BST)

so far, we have the following people nominated as alternatives to Lieberman: Harkin, Gephardt, LaDuke, Bonior, and Wellstone. But no info. on specifics of their voting record; only opinions. But, the link I posted earlier (http://www.vote-smart.org/index.phtml) can help you decide for yourself.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 22:00:05 (BST)

Not that helper, Sonj ! I'm a little brown doggy thing from The Simpsons.
SLH
Springfield (clue), - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:55:18 (BST)

any chance of a lift in the sleigh?
sonj <via lapland>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:52:11 (BST)

Joe Liberman, voting record is one of the most conservative of any Democart. He voted for the ban of partial birth abortions and voted to deregulate the Banking Industry. His principle campaign conributors include, HMO's and Hartford nsurance with very little (11%) from Labor Unions He also supports School Vouchers. Give me LaDuke anytime. For more information www.commondreams.org./headlines/080900-02.html
James
New Paltz, NY, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:52:00 (BST)

Sonj, Billy's playing a Solo gig on Thursday 10th August (ie tomorrow, better set off now) BOX OFFICE: (44) 01296 433669. Good Luck,
Santa's Little Helper
Springfield, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:48:05 (BST)

Carol, you may be out of america when Bill is over there, but bob dylan is following you over here.
sonj <still looking for tickets to the portsmouth guildhall gig.>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:46:58 (BST)

i discussed this before on here with pete c, but i can't remeber the answer. doesn't the sidmouth festival last all week? How much are the tickets? do you have to pay for the whole week?? do you know what days Bill is playing??
sonj <how long would it take to drive there from pompey in a ford sierra>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:45:20 (BST)

Oh. I got a ticket for the Philly gig. I'll see the flock there.
Robin <still red, just tired>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:43:54 (BST)

lazz: I harbor no illusions about Lieberman or Gore. I think we're in trouble no matter who gets in. Nader doesn't have a chance in Hell of winning. I just wish there was somebody better than Nader who could run and get some public interest. Where was he during the Civil Rights movment and the Vietnam War? Working on his own crusade of consumer protection, which largely appealed to middle class white liberals. He has no roots in labor. The biggest reason he is not likely to win is that there is no mass movement that led up to his candidacy, and no matter how hard we wish, there is not enough of a grassroots campaign to offset the campaign being waged in the corporate media.
Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:40:43 (BST)

BTW - Radio 2 are doing an 1 hour review of the Sidmouth Festival next Wednesday at 20:00 BST [ work it out for yourself ] which will probably be webcast here --- http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/realplayer/media/fmg2.ram.... It's possible that Bill will get a number on I guess.
jon
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:37:16 (BST)

derik, i thought it was an excellent example of an academic going a bit too far
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:33:20 (BST)

Jon, No, but thanks for playing.
Bamber Gascoigne <Starter for Ten, No Conferring>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:27:22 (BST)

erm, obviously replace the word 'Coppery' with 'Irony' ..if it helps ?
"you may now turn over your paper"......(don't those words still make you shudder ?)
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:25:02 (BST)

Man in the copper mask?
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:24:39 (BST)

Whoever asked about the show dates: Try ticketmaster searching Billy's name and the state you are in... Lazz: I thought that article while humorous was also an excellent example of differing critical theory.
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:23:49 (BST)

Quick Quiz Time : What song is Billy introducing below ? .......Sorry, but Sonj or members of her family are not allowed to enter.
Theo 'Magnus Magnusson' Michael
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:21:58 (BST)

"Watch the Chorus just drip with Coppery, 'cos that's what Coppery does, it drips...It's all over the inside of our van, it's terrible ! " - Billy Bragg - Mountain Stage, West Virginia.
Theo <SonjNoIthinkHeSaysIrony@.afterall.scansbetter>
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:19:28 (BST)

Nevski, I'm dead jealous. Hope someone takes you up on the ticket. Have a great time anyway. Please let us now how it went, setlist etc when you get back. Be Lucky,
Theo
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:14:48 (BST)

going to see Billy tomorrow at the sidmouth folk festival. one spare ticket to anyone who emails b4 7am gmt on 10th/8/00
Nevski <nevski@lineone.net>
Exeter, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:03:50 (BST)

brian, if you come back i promise to send you a copy of the tape theo sent me of Billy Bragg himself talking about irony ( not sure if he mentions coppery or steely ) love
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 20:59:25 (BST)

http://www.vote-smart.org/index.phtml go down to the bottom of the frame on the left and enter the last name of the person you want info. on. this is quite a nice resource, and has been recognized by many organizations as unbiased.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 20:47:48 (BST)

do a little more reading and think a little more metaphorically luther :-)
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 20:01:27 (BST)

Lazz: You think I adopt this posture on the BB guestbook because I want to sleep with the women here?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:40:41 (BST)

barbara, what is nader's foreign policy experience? like it or not, as president, he would be heading a country with huge influence in the world. standing firm and not compromising was a great personal characteristic against the big auto companies in the 1960's and 1970's, but that same characteristic could start world war III.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:38:37 (BST)

The more I see it on the screen, I like Wellstone/Bonior. IT will never happen in a million years of course but what a lovely dream. They're young men for politicians so maybe maybe maybe there's time.
Barbara <andthecompaniesandtheunionswillbefriendsandtherewillbejusticeintheland>
withcleanwaterandnoholeintheozonelayer, WAKEUPANDGOTOYOURJOBATTHESCABPAPER - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:38:07 (BST)

it's easy to throw out names for democratic vice-presidential candidates, but what are these people's voting records? what have they advocated for or against?
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:36:10 (BST)

I can't see Nader in a day to day job. Even VP is wrong for him. His best place is in the front with a good organization running things. Which is a good description of the presidency. I do like Wellstone I just wish he'd shave the little fucking beard. It doesn't look serious.
Barbara <imnotbeingshallowitdistractsfromthemessage>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:35:11 (BST)

there are many places you can read about what is meant by the term "alpha male"; try using a search engine; this is but one source: "As an example, one of the more thoroughly studied aspects of primate social behavior is male-male competition. For many species of primate, including humans in many contexts, males compete by means of physical attack and physical threat to establish social dominance over other males. Position within the resulting dominance hierarchy often times has rather dramatic reproductive consequences for individual males. In many contexts, only the most dominant, or alpha, male sires offspring (e.g., Altmann et al., 1996). The achievement of social dominance is complex, however. In some species, social dominance is achieved through one-on-one physical contests, in other species it is more dependent on the coalitional activities of groups of males, and in still other species it is influenced by the social support of females in the group"(Dunbar, 1984; Goodall, 1986; Smuts, 1985). All of these different patterns, and many other features of male-male competition in primates, are described in Chapter 3. http://www.human-nature.com/books/geary1.html
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:34:20 (BST)

lazz... would have liked gephardt as a vp, but speaker of house is fine too... whatever the result, i'm sure i'll be drunk on election night.
keri
bklyn, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:33:06 (BST)

barbara, make that a wellstone/nader ticket and i just might bite. i respect nader for his consumer advocacy, but am not convinced he'd make a good president. but while being idealistic might be nice, part of the idea is to beat bush, and this aspect needed to be considered. i think wellstone is one of the best things to hit the senate in decades (he's from my home state and beat out arch-conservative rudy boschwitz), but even he is a relative newcomer to politics. i'm torn between suggesting nader run for some congressional seat to gain some political experience and show us how effective he'd be in the political arena, or suggesting that he stick with consumer advocacy, where he has made more strides than he ever would have been able to if he had gone into politics
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:29:56 (BST)

Thanks for the post, Luther. I won't add anything but will leave it again to our sponsor, Uncle Billy, " support or criticise which I think is healthy SO LONG AS IT STAYS CIVIL! "
Theo <NotMuchToAskFor@IsIt ?Rember,NothingPersonalEveryone..please>
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:24:59 (BST)

Lazz- a Nader/Wellstone ticket? Gore/Harkin except even though he has a good reputation, Harkin is still an old pol. Maybe Wellstone/Bonior?
Barbara <dreamdreamdreamdream>
battleoftherichwhiteman, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:23:49 (BST)

Lazz: Please explain what you mean by "alpha male".
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:20:54 (BST)

robin, if your primary concern is fewest attacks on labor, do you trust that the gore/lieberman ticket will be better than the bush/cheney? to all: if you don't think lieberman was the best, who would you have liked to have seen? what is that person's record on the issues i cited in lieberman's record (and on any other issues you might want to mention)? luther, if you stopped trying to be alpha-male, you might get along better with the gb as a whole -- i can't see you submitting to the vanguard of the proletariat, so you must envision yourself as a member of the vanguard? could you accept anyone's authority, if you didn't agree with what that person was saying? i don't believe a vanguard of the proletariat has any role in my life, but maybe it's just not time for the revolution and you just need to bide your time .. look what happened when russia rushed things.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:09:16 (BST)

derik, i'm glad you appreciated it. i was giggling my way through what, i fear, was *not* meant to be a parody of literary analysis. amazing that one can write a 2,183 word analysis of a 27 word nursery rhyme. this kind of humor is by far the best.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:01:28 (BST)

Right, then. I've just been on the telephone with Theo, and he explained his reasons for believing that I had "attacked" Robin. For my part, I explained why I posted what I did -- to draw attention to the glaring double standard here on the BB guestbook. Theo and I still disagree on the message I communicated, but I accept his criticism that I "raised the bar" to an extremely provocative level and opened the door for Bob to post his shitty little attack on Pam. The point I was trying to make (which many of you missed because of the words I used) was that it seems to be okay with y'all for Robin to post "Luther should be slammed hard in the face with an iron mask" but if I were to post anything similar about Robin, I would have been crucified. Theo explained why he thinks that double standard exists, and he suggested that if I stop constantly criticizing you lot, you might come to see me as something other than Darth Luther. We shall see.
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:00:49 (BST)

pete w, i seriously *tried* to start a political discussion and spent much time contributing info. about lieberman. instead .. well, maybe only the americans should be concerned (but should gore win, and win again in 2004, then in 2008 lieberman would be the most likely democratic nominee for pres of the US of A, which kind of likes to tell those of you in europe and surrounding islands how to live)
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:50:24 (BST)

Bye Brain, I hope to chat with you again when the air clears. I was the one who said I was becoming addicted to BBgb, but dang the honeymoon period was short! Can't believe the high drama around here and that people are still bringing it up (oops just brought it up!) Oh yeah, had a dream last night that a bunch of folks (us?) were over at Mr. Bragg's house for Thanksgiving dinner (I even dream American!) He lived in this sweet underground hobbit-like dwelling and was carving the turkey for us all. Homey. I felt a bit of an outsider but was happy to be there. I guess the scrapes and scrabbles of yesterday (and today) didn't kill my affection for the BBgb. Bill(bo Baggins) brings us all together in the end.
susan
Santa Cruz, CA, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:12:46 (BST)

"Hello, you've reached Theo's mobile. Please leave a message for me..."
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:05:59 (BST)

Sept 29 Portland: Aladdin, 30 Seattle: Moore,Oct 1 Vancouver: Vogue,3 SF: Filmore, 4 LA: Ford, 6 Minneapolis: First Avenue, 7 Chicago: Park West, 8 Toronto: Music Hall, 10 Somerville: Somerville Theatre, 11,12 NYC: Irving Plaza, 14 Towson,MD.: Recher Theatre, 15 Washington D.C.: 9:30 Club, 16 Philadelphia: Theatre of the Living Arts. Subject to Change. . - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 13:39:30 (BST)
Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:03:50 (BST)

Luther, modern technology for ya. please try again. It's never been off. Cheers,
Theo
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:03:21 (BST)

Where did you guys get info on the Philly show - there is no mention of it on the tour part of this site. Where is Billy playing and do any of you have info on other dates?? Thanks
Sid <sidm1@yahoo.com>
NYC, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:01:42 (BST)

You might want to switch it on, Theo. Your telephone, that is.
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:01:16 (BST)

Luther, 0044 7976 362111 , give me a call and I'll tell ya !
Theo
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:53:16 (BST)

carol... don't bother with arsenal... london teams are yucky...
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:47:39 (BST)

to everyone (especially Sonj and Carol) - sorry about my last posting, and in particular the language used, but it just seems no matter what you try hate prevails and to be honest it just wears you down after while. A desire to chat to people with a vaguely intelligent point of view lead me to this guestbook. I did not expect every to agree and I love a critism/arguements as much as the next room but this is just not fun. I may come back in a few days. Take care Brian
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:47:33 (BST)

I want Theo to explain how Robin was attacked here yesterday. Go ahead, Theo.
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:47:32 (BST)

But Luther, I said I wanted Keri to slam Theo's head with a baseball cap--I am sure he is now hiding in dark pubs and shaking with fear because Keri is armed and preparing to cancel her flight to Portland--she has prey in London. (Theo--will Arsenal be playing anywhere in September? And do you think they should change their name to something less military? Jut for the peace and snaity of the forum.)
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:45:22 (BST)

it's a date then... i look forward to meeting the flock.
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:43:18 (BST)

I have tickets for PhillY! BAaah
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:38:52 (BST)

I'll bring my wool fleece, though. I look forward to meeting ewes. Baaah!
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:37:55 (BST)

Jesus Christ! What drugs are you on, Theo? It wasn't Pam and Robin who were attacked yesterday -- it was Pam and Luther. Bob said some truly horrible things about Pam, and Robin said that I needed to have an iron mask slammed hard into my face. NOTHING SIMILAR WAS EVER SAID ABOUT ROBIN. Can't you fucking read? *mutters something about stupid sheep*
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:31:22 (BST)

I do have an iron mask, though.
Red Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:27:01 (BST)

derik, speak for yourself mate... just go get the tickets... and what if you are the devil?
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:26:25 (BST)

Sabers? I don't know about. I think Keri has horns, haha.
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:24:09 (BST)

Thanks, Carol, for saying that. That was going through my mind yesterday as well - about children who visit this site. My 11-year-old has met Bill twice, and may well peek in here now and then - and given the demeanor of many of the folks here, I wouldn't want her to. I keep thinking about the 6-year-old who posted here a couple of months ago. What a major breakthrough for a young child posting on a guestbook of a famous singer! We have all fallen too far from that state of innocence. ***** As for Philly - I plan to pick up the tickets today. I would love to meet Derik and Keri and Fenster there. I'm sure we'll all find out that none of us has horns or sabers.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:16:48 (BST)

I have been thinking about our various comments and fights, etc., with one another. I have been as guilty as anyone in name calling and having a hot temper,etc, although yesterday I was in a jolly mood and didn't fight with anyone. I am sorry that I didn't make my defense of Pam stronger. But what I am most concerned about is that we should be a "kid friendly" place, and frankly we are setting a very bad example to our various children (many of us here are parents). They have in the past visited this site, but I wouldn't allow my granddaughter to ever visit here again. That is sad, and certainly not in the spirit that Billy promotes through his music and at his concerts. Shallowness, silliness, even disagreements are okay, but let's try to be a little kind.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:09:41 (BST)

derik is perfecting is cough for the philly show... i feel like i'm coming down with something too.
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:07:36 (BST)

Will we be seeing you at the Philly show Robin? Keri and I will be there. Hopefully Fenster too (even though it is a school night). Anyone else?
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:07:31 (BST)

oregon... i need to go see some trees, the ocean... i just need to get out of here for a bit.
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:04:55 (BST)

Bad luck, Carol! The date for Billy in Philly was changed to Oct. 16...a Monday night. I have to work that night. I guess I'll have to play hooky.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:02:37 (BST)

When will you be returning to the states - I am having BB withdrawl.... Also all of you on here need to be a little nicer to each other. Sid
Sid <Sidm1@yahoo.com>
NYC, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:02:18 (BST)

I have waited for over 50 years to go to Europe, and when I finally get the chance(with help from my lovely friends here), Billy decides he is going to play at the Fillmore in SF (October 4th--I won't be coming back unitl Oct. 6th)! Oh well. Nexzt year, I hope? And keri, when you say you are going to Portland, do you mean Oregon or Maine?
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 16:55:10 (BST)

NEWS FLASH! (SLCTP Wire Service) - A 5 ft. tall, 42-year-old mother of five was hauled away from her home in handcuffs today after an alleged violent assault on a 42-year-old British punk rocker with an electronic message board. When rocker Billy Bragg was asked to comment about this, he merely stated, "I don't know what you're talking about." Story continued on page 37.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 16:48:28 (BST)

One should note: Bob did apologize for his comment.
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 16:22:19 (BST)

I really can't comprehend some of the stuff that has been posted on here since last night. No human being should have been subjected to what Pam & Robin have been attacked with. Bob seriously needs help for his obvious sickness. Luther needs to acknowledge when he's been the butt of a joke, laugh it off and not try to provoke what followed. The least Luther could do now is drop it and accept he was totally out of order (which I know he can't). Stop blaming everyone else. Can we move on, please. BTW, I make no excuses for posting the quote from Uncle Billy. Show some respect for The Man !... Sorry Pam, Sorry Robin !
Theo
London, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:42:47 (BST)

Uncle Bill @ The Bragg Office - Friday, July 28, 2000 at 13:58:25 (BST)
sonj <what a lovely fella he is!>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:27:46 (BST)

Careful with what you say, Bill, or Robin will advocate violence against you.
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:18:53 (BST)

" support or criticise which I think is healthy SO LONG AS IT STAYS CIVIL! "
Uncle Bill
Friday, July 28, 2000 at 13:58:25 (BST), - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:16:29 (BST)

leave the forum??... over a wanker in utah?...not on your life!!! did anyone see the nader advert? it's classy and entertaining. AND I'M GOING TO PORTLAND!!!! *dances around desk, does handstand*
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:15:03 (BST)

If I had your e-amil, Robin I wouldn't continue posting here, but surely you don't believe that Luther was saying those things should happen to you any more than I did when I echoed his words. Remember when I asked how people would have reacted if Bob had said them of you or other women on this guestbook? It was exactly the same thing: How would people react if....? Yet, he was attacked and even accused by Keri of saying that you should be raped. And Bob was practically ignored. Sometimes I wonder why I even keep trying to make people see or why it even matters to me. Luther thinks I'm crazy for it, probably, but I guess I never learned to wipe the dust from my shoes and walk away.
Pam
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:12:49 (BST)

come back brian i was only teasing !!! :(
sonj <botom lip ver quiverry>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:12:44 (BST)

Jeg elsker Carsten!
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:09:11 (BST)

Over the past few days, I have traveled all over your state and met many of you. And what has impressed me most is that no matter where I have gone, my reaction has been the same: Oh, God, get me the fuck out of this dump!
Al Gore visits Pennsylvania
http://www.theonion.com/onion3627/visiting_gore_hellhole.ht, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:08:08 (BST)

OH FOR JESUS FUCKS SAKE - I WAS TALKING ABOUT NO-ONE IN PARTICULAR JUST THE BUNCH OF FUCKING LOSERS WHO SEEM TO INFEST THIS BULLETIN BOARD WITH THERE BILE AND HATRED - AS FOR ME - YOU CAN ALL BOIL IN YOUR OWN SHIT FROM NOW ON - GGODBYE
BRIAN
LONDON, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:05:31 (BST)

Luther's comments about tying down, shooting and raping? What the fuck are you talking about, Robin?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:01:24 (BST)

whoever tome is. steve, i'll swap you for natalie merchant xx (even if she was over familiar with Billy)
sonj <green eyes>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:00:58 (BST)

Brian: 12:23:34 : are you complaining because you're not being talked about again:)? I don't think i called anybody names. I just said tosser is one of my favourite word but didn't allocate it to anybody in particular, here or elsewhere. oh well. tome to go and get a life i suppose ....
sonj <love and peace@home>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:59:09 (BST)

i'll second that robin
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:54:10 (BST)

everyone - please accept my apologise for not joining in the infantile name-calling carried out by a bunch of fucking sad pathetic toss-pots last night
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:50:54 (BST)

Pam, I agree that Bob's comments were inexcusable; I was more focused on another verbal assault at that time, and let it pass. I also more or less let Luther's comments about tying down, shooting and raping pass. Sometimes things like that do more to discredit their originator than anything another person could say in response.
Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:41:50 (BST)

That was not directed at you Pam. Sorry if you assumed it was.
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:36:16 (BST)

Except Derik apparently has taken me to task for criticizing people using assumed names. When have I ever used an assumed name here, Derik, without owning up to it or making it obvious? There is no glass house here for me to worry about the stones.
Pam
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:23:51 (BST)

First thanks to those of you who came forward to criticize Bob for overstepping himself. I'll shut up after this, but feel it necessary to make myself clear. I'm not whining because he called me ugly, I'm not that thin skinned. He could have said I was ugly as a two weeks drowned rat in a barrel of beer and I could understand people giggling. I'm the first to admit that I'm not gorgeous. My anger, while at first with him, actually became aimed at those who condoned through silence the sick, disgusting image of a violently attacked human being--woman OR man--that he used and that some even made light of it. When I took issue with it, I received more sarcasm from him. Carol tried to defuse it with humor, but I really didn't think that was what was needed. That comment should have been criticized immediately and strongly. It doesn't matter what you think of me (I can't remember ever attacking anyone on this questbook in a personal way, but you judge me because Luther is my friend), but that comment was inexcusable, there was nothing humorous about it, and the fact that it was not attacked immediately and vigorously says volumes about how some here will accept anything to keep from taking an unpopular stand. I wonder how you might have reacted if you came across the body of a neighbor you didn't particularly like who had been tied down, shot in the face, and raped and someone said, "Damn, she's ugly!" Would you have laughed? That said, I'm shutting up for awhile. Enjoy your playground.
Pam Raver <raverp@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:19:48 (BST)

re: nestle --- http://www.babymilkaction.org/ and http://www.urban75.com/Action/nestle.html
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:15:13 (BST)

Re: Insulting people about using assumed names... I recall an old saying about glass houses.
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:14:29 (BST)

What a hell of a lot of name calling. I will just say that while I disgree with people and/or find them rude, I will not resort to namecalling (even when it has been directed at me). LAZZ: That analysis of Little Bo Peep is great!!
derik
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:12:08 (BST)

Are the dates listed below just Billy or is it Billy & Wilco??
Schlotto <schlotto@hotmail.com>
US - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:01:36 (BST)

Susan: I have heard those new lyrics to Greetings... - I think he also used them at Reading which was put out on the Bootleg cd
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:56:12 (BST)

Steve: couldn't resist :)
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:53:13 (BST)

re: Matt Greoning and Nestle. Kit Kat chocolate bars in the Uk often have Simpsons tie-ins. But to be fair to Greoning, there was no mention of dead african babies on his last bank statement. First John Lennon, then Matt Greoning, then half of Ben & Jerry, who else is gonna show themselves up to be a fraud?
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:49:49 (BST)

Brian you crack me up
steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:45:20 (BST)

Bogues, Tet and anyone else interested in Pompey. We've had riots five nights running in the Paulsgrove area. This arising from "The News of the World" (Trash Sunday Newspaper)publishing the names and photographs of peadophile criminals and one of them lived in Paulsgrove. Mob attack on house. Then attacks on homes of "suspected sex offenders". Last night was apparently anyone's night and attacks were made on homes of people disliked by the mob. Feelings running high locally due to obscene murder crime involving female child. Bad Bad Bad
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth Still, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:24:10 (BST)

...so... "synopsis: everybody hates luther except pets c and pam. pete c loves everybody except sometimes carsten. everybody loves pete c since we all kissed and made up. pam only loves luther therefore she is not loved by anyone. barbara is loved by bob (not lucier of fenster but bobingalls) steve is loved by most of the girls particularly the trollps and strumpets but not always by robin. sonj and alberr love each other." ... thats everyone covered then!
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:23:34 (BST)

It was me Tett, I always put my name, I forgot that time....is that your real name as I have an aunty Tett who I cant stand and the name reminds me...
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
sunderland/brisbane, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:46:58 (BST)

I don't love anyone! OK , yes I do. Blasting my neighbours with a certain gentleman singing "I gotta socialism of the heart!" Maybe going to work in the Big Smoke later. Then maybe not. Peace and love.......
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth This morning, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:46:53 (BST)

Top five soul tracks...5) Al Green,Tired of being alone...4) Robert Parker, Barefootin'...3)Aretha, say a little prayer...2)Arthur Conley, Sweet Soul music...1)Free, A Little Bit of Love
Steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:44:32 (BST)

Top five soul tracks...5) Al Green,Tired of being alone...4) Robert Parker,
Steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:44:09 (BST)

Who was that last one from? Reveal yourself.
tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:42:22 (BST)

Who was that last one from? Reveal your id.
tettland <tettland@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:41:34 (BST)

I love everyone....although I'm sure Love and Optimism will be my downfall
except thatcher she was a twat...sorry tosser..no that cant be right??/ <see what youve done Sonj>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 11:28:05 (BST)

I am afraid to say I love YOU, though (at this stage, that is . . .)
Tettland <be afraid, be very afraid>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 10:33:28 (BST)

Anyone out there? I guess it's bedtime in the US. What about the Brits? Anyone would think you had lives and jobs to go to! Probably old news but get these quotes: "[the royal family] often drink a toast at the end of dinner to Mrs Thatcher. She [the Queen Mother] adores Mrs Thatcher." from Woodrow Wyatt Diaries,1986 & "She [the Queen Mother] thinks that it is awful how the BBC and the media misrepresent everything that [PW] Botha is trying to do." from Woodrow Wyatt Diaries, 1986. 'appy Birthday, m'am.
Tettland <s_tett@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 10:30:19 (BST)

Tett: I hereby retract all prior statements regarding Pam's alleged ugliness. I would have retracted sooner but I was sleeping. P.S. I love you too and I'm not afraid to say so.
Bob
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 10:28:26 (BST)

Bob: the comment about Pam was a disgrace and should be retracted (didn't say anything earlier as I was asleep...) Luther: you do take yourself a little too seriously, I feel (not because I can't meet you intellectually but because I have no desire to). And though I have my favourites on here (I'm not saying who, though!), I haven't known any of you long enough to say I that I love you; I'm not that kind of boy...
Tettland <s_tett@hotmail.com>
Copenhagen, DK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 10:09:38 (BST)

"humerous allegorical allegedgedment"..sonj , dont you start..(:)..any chance of posting the full track listing of that CD sonj....I cleaned my car out recently and found three unsent tapes even with stamps on addressed to Theo Sonj Laura....then Kims was returned from Bloomington saying town closed??...
Steve <Im off for a multi ingredient salad>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 09:07:59 (BST)

now for the really bad news. next door to the pub in portchester, where i go for lunch, a new and used cd shop has just opened. I broke my vow of penury yesterday and bought Rock the Dock. a compilation to raise money for the striking Liverpool Dockers and their families. Includes Never Cross a Picket Line by Mr Billy Bragg. also (Les)Best Bit by Beth Orton. I wonder if alberr will notice if i play it ...
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:42:39 (BST)

steve, it was meant to be a humerous allegorical allegedgedment. It was a bit cruel to imply that pam is unloved (every day in every way i will be a nicer person )so i apologise for that.
sonj <love and peace rules, ok?>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:32:06 (BST)

Carol, I'd like to state publicly that I have made your tapes but am too much of a busy procrastinating loser to mail them. I will mail them damn it and you'll like them.
Barbara <nowihavetooryoullallblamemewhencarolhasnonewtapestolistento>
anditstrueimwrong, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:07:49 (BST)

Everybody counts...Sonj, Red and I have sided up and touched little fingers since the third world war....that word is removed I agree..Im thinking of a new one
steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:07:45 (BST)

I have no bad feelings to Luther none whatsoever,why should I(I know you weren't serious Sonj,were you?) I also never hold grudges, although that Charlie George tackle on Jimmy Montgomery in the 1973 semi was a bit rich...Pam and I chat regularly off line and I have many "Male" friends on here..so there..(:)
Steve <cyberworldlackinghumour@BBGB>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:03:53 (BST)

Everybody that counts loves Sonj
Barbara <haveaniceday@worksonjofthegreatheart>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:00:47 (BST)

except the last bit which i have on very good authority...
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 08:00:05 (BST)

allegedly
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:54:53 (BST)

and you can only have two choices by the same artist...I went to the Library today and came away with three CDs(not that I would record them)...Natalie Merchant's Tigerlily which I love and Nina Simone Live - awesome it is..and the third a Prince album, which is shite..okok ,I dont know what was going on in my head either, I'll book into therapy tomorrow
Steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:54:27 (BST)

synopsis: everybody hates luther except pets c and pam. pete c loves everybody except sometimes carsten. everybody loves pete c since we all kissed and made up. pam only loves luther therefore she is not loved by anyone. barbara is loved by bob (not lucier of fenster but bobingalls) steve is loved by most of the girls particularly the trollps and strumpets but not always by robin. sonj and alberr love each other.
sonj <who needs eastenders>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:53:28 (BST)

steve, i don't like that word. I think it is sexist. i prefer tosser
sonj
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:50:13 (BST)

May I be a whinging Pome(aussie term, Geoff??)I am sick to my billious gut of reading about bloody "grammatical mistakes"...fucking Teachers,(sorry PeteW) look, stick to Gym its safer for the children...I couldnt give a double toss about these errors go to the back of the book the answers are there, or pick up A twatting Dictionary, but stop correcting people if you are aware of what they are trying to say.....Phew!!...right, there now, that's that.HARUMPFH....because of Nick Hornby I now keep lists and re-arrange my record collection according to my emotional state at the time...here goes NAME THE BEST TOP FIVE SOUL SONGS EVER..NO MORE JUST FIVE...
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
Twat - word of the week, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:39:18 (BST)

apologies to Luther, i did not make myself clear. That should have read 'can't be bothered to go on giving long and reasoned grammatically correct replies to the same overlaboured and usually agressively put points picking on people' That is my final answer and i think nicholas will get the £70,0000 because there will only be him and caroline left and she will run away screaming having finally had a nervous breakdown before being voted on for the (5th?) time. (How many votes will it take?) maths is not my strong pont. And just for Luther, the freezer doesn't work on my noisy fridge freezer. my alarm clock has broken. i have to go to work now
sonj <carol, don't worry, we can buy ice for the martinis in waitrose or even the co-op>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:37:02 (BST)

Bob your comments to Pam were disgraceful, they were heartless and cruel...you twat. I may call Luther an arse(among other things Rev)..and he may call me a drunken geordie(I wish)...however most of the time the Tongue is plumbed firmly in the cheek, what you said to Pam was cowardly.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
im going to read The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist again, to remind me of how we shit in our own nests - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 07:31:56 (BST)

I am sorry, Pam, that you didn't notice my defense of you.
Carol
SF, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 06:37:48 (BST)

Thanks _to_ you, that is
Pam
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:36:10 (BST)

So all of you posters who have remained silent, think that Bob spoke appropriately to me and deserves no comment? Thanks you Jon for your comment, btw.
Pam Raver <raverp@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:32:51 (BST)

eventually, luther, we'll come to see the light and worship you like jesus christ. but, as the nursery rhyme says, you've got to leave us alone and we'll eventually come home
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:20:14 (BST)

Can't be bothered to reply to me, Sonj? Huh? People have been replying to me in this forum all day -- sometimes civilly, sometimes angrily. If you're trying to argue that I should just go away because no one here wants to talk to me, I'm afraid you're going to have difficulty backing up that contention.
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:14:37 (BST)

6. A Deconstruction This is self-evidently a deconstructable text. The whole narrative arises from the dichotomy between Þnding and losing. In case we did not know it, the surface of the text makes everything abundantly plain: she lost her sheep and didn't know where to Þnd them. Losing is not only antithetical to Þnding; losing prevents the possibility of Þnding.
lazz <oooh that's deep>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:01:39 (BST)

the one advantage to doing postmodern analysis of nursery rhymes is that you can read the entire text in under 5 minutes and memorize it too. Bo Peep is an art form, illustrating conciseness (or is it concision?)
lazz <that's sheffield in the UK, mind you>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:00:41 (BST)

Little Beau Peep: The text plainly demands to be read from a feminist perspective. Its central Þgure is a fascinating female character, a fundamentally effective woman who has obviously managed to hold down a job as a shepherd, and has established a nurturing relationship with her charges, who are called 'her sheep'--not because she owns them, for shepherds are usually servants, women shepherds especially, but because she holds herself responsible for them. http://www.shef.ac.uk/~biblst/Department/Staff/BibsResearch/DJACcurrres/Postmodern2/Bo.html
lazz <sonj, i wasn't even trying to be that clever, but i'll take credit for it>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:56:56 (BST)

Hmm, should that have been "were" in the first sentence? Or maybe "and/or"? Is there a plural for "faux pas"?
Fenster
No, I don't need an answers to these questions, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:55:36 (BST)

As a child I was taught that publicly pointing out people's grammatical mistakes and social faux pas was the height of rudeness. If it's done privately and quietly, it might be appreciated. Otherwise, it's a childish "Gotcha!" Having said this, I don't think it's childish or rude to deflate someone who is being childish and rude. "Could care less" was not the meaning aimed at by the speaker, but it is distinctly not grammatically incorrect. Perhaps some people should revisit the meaning of the word grammar. Finally, I'll reiterate something Keri said, though I'll repeat her mistake -- she advised people to ignore others who they didn't get along with just after putting in a dig at the person she had in mind. Oops, I did it again.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
who even managed to work in a Brittney Spears reference, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:53:40 (BST)

lazz, is that the barking mails or the irritating luther?
sonj 
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:50:22 (BST)

Yes, Luther can make intelligent contributions but it gets up peoples nose when he whinges/whines about people posting little details of their everyday lives, which some of us enjoy because that's how you get to know people in this strange cyber world. Luther, it really annoys me when you waste space on here repeating yourself ad nauseum when people have made it clear they can't be bothered to reply to you. I am not on any mailing lists but ( for the benefit of new people ) i realise that there is a hidden agenda based on the things that go on there. I don't know why Luther is almost universally beleived to be responsible for 'hate mail' on here but he is, which is another reason why people are so hostile towards him. Even sometimes the lovely theo who is always kind, providing you don't support west ham ( or is it leyton orient :))
sonj <alright, i'll go back to bed now>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:47:56 (BST)

leave them alone and they'll come home with their tails wagging behind them
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:44:30 (BST)

sorry, nearly in hampshire, at this precise moment still in the flat just over the border in sussex. S#i@, this pc has started to bark like a dog when mail arrives ......
sonj <will the person in the downstairs flat think it's a ghost of their departed dog ??>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:37:56 (BST)

There is no way in hell that a vote in Kansas will help Gore, so I am guiltlessly voting for Nader. I must confess that if I lived 40 miles east of here (Missouri), I would probably vote Gore. Honestly, at least Gore could have picked a token liberal for a running mate…
Kay
Lawrence, KS, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:36:39 (BST)

Who said this place is addictive?? It's only 4 in the morning for goodness sake and it is a noisy fridge that keeps me awake at night. Not that i lie (lay, sit, walk around ) awake at night wondering if i am going mad. Is Bob Lucier Jnr not Bob Lucier Jnr. Is he being impersonated, or is his full name not enough detail???
sonja pedersen <married to al reed>
living in hampshire, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:33:46 (BST)

And to prove I would survive in Luthers world Im busy reading the 19th Edition of the famous revolutionery book called Beau Peep...(:).if this hasnt reached America, what a loss
Steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:53:48 (BST)

The Rev Luther said..."No, my mantra is "Yes, I recognize that I'm an arrogant asshole. But you're all a bunch of stupid sheep, so what's the difference?" Luther Gaylord - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:19:05 (BST)"....Luther thats the same as "Im ok your not ok"..so go read the book or try a little transactional analysis..and empty the cellar of your mind...Man does have free will, if we choose to...dont be stuck in parent mode too long it's unhealthy for you
Steve <happy to be hunted down>
0408 665632, - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:50:20 (BST)

Bob after Solidarity should have came Stupidity
Steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:42:30 (BST)

Luther, let's have a little discussion amongst ourselves, arrogant bastard to arrogant bastard, ignoring those lowly, pathetic sheep for a minute. Here is my problem: Your political philosophy (if I may use the phrase very loosely) relies on having motivated, intelligent, self-governing workers. How do you expect these idiots to carry out your grand plans? Do you think insulting the moronic masses will convert them to your ideas? Shouldn't we just kill all of the stupid fuckers and take what rightfully belongs to confident deep-thinkers like ourselves? Yours very truly in superiority and solidarity,
Bob "Lucient" Jr. <wolfnotsheep@yahoo.com>
Wolfsburg, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:35:38 (BST)

Just came back from the Green Party Rally to which, I can report there was an icredible turnout. Several hundred people just "by word of mouth" Various issues and strategies were discussed. Various Gore scare tatics were discssed including "waisted vote" and. There was a tape of Wyona LaDuke speaking on the golbal economy and how it effects people all over the world. Born is Minnisota, she is a Harvard trained economist (got in on her merits as opposed to Debuya with his C- average and his famiy building an extension to the Yale Library.) Pete Seeger was there, a terrible thing happened, hjis banjo was taken from his car. He was very upset. Carol, I raised your question, I will emial the answer. I tried to raise the issue of "Objectivity" and its effect upon Ameican culture, no one was interested at this time though my opinons were validated (Are you Laughing again Carol?)
James
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:20:15 (BST)

No, my mantra is "Yes, I recognize that I'm an arrogant asshole. But you're all a bunch of stupid sheep, so what's the difference?"
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:19:05 (BST)

A bit sad when people drag this GB down to the level of certain Message Board levels, how they pontificate socialism, Moarals and utopian anarchism while living middle class clerks lives..blahblahblah...Id love to meet a few in the pub(mineral water only)...the sad thing is they convince themselves they are doing it for a laugh when all along they are headcases
Steve
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:16:22 (BST)

Carol, Alan Hull comes from North Shields and lived there all his life, if you need any interpretation ask me or PeteW...PeteW you are more knowledgable than most your posts are detailed and analytical more than can be said for most...now send me that tenner
Steve <more trivia to reinforce The Im ok your not ok complex>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:09:11 (BST)

or maybe his mantra is "i'm ok, you're an asshole"?
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:03:32 (BST)

Theo, I can't let you escape with that one..while Islington is a district and Newcastle a City the Unemployment figures are unfairly compared...however in Pennywell a district of Sunderland employment is 27%..Theo, while your counting them in Islington have you been to the Horseshoe in Clerkenwell Close...a good folk night
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:03:20 (BST)

the real scary question is "is there anyone better in the democratic party who could have been chosen as gore's running mate?" . Bush or Gore? the Gore hand dropped to the ground, much as I have mixed feelings about parts of Lieberman's records, Bush's is much worse.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:02:28 (BST)

It gets so hard to keep up on here. Go away for a couple of hours, and when you get back there are a million new posts (give or take a few). Sheeeeeessssssssshhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
jared <JaredDuran@aol.com>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:00:19 (BST)

"Can't people communicate silly personal messages via private e-mail? Luther Gaylord - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:53:02 (BST)"...HAHAHAH, go to that silly mesage board and see messages that will have you rolling in the aisles. The best laugh since I read Groucho Marx's Memoirs of a Mangy Lover...Look it's pretty obvious that The Rev Luther is externalising his complex of "I'M OK YOUR NOT OK"..and while his gatekeepers are in attendance here IE "The Mother makes it ok" He feels secure internally....ok please forward consultation fees to..next stage...use your left hand to stroke your right arm and say to yourself Luther, "I love myself and I am in love with the universe, Im at peace with myself"..and when you have that shit, eat it. Thanks Red
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
sunderland 19th August, Theo you jammy twat..(:) - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:58:33 (BST)

Picking him as a running mate is a strong argument against voting for Gore, that is for sure. We are really stuck in this election (once again). If we vote for Nader, Bush is surely to get in - and that would be a disaster when you consider he will be appointing extreme right-wing Supreme Court judges who will outlive his administration. If we vote for Gore, we're fucked anyway. The question is, whose administration will make the fewest assaults on labor?
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:38:14 (BST)

I'm perfectly happy to identify myself...(tongue out)(:)...Kim you made me blush almost, it's been known. Carol thanks for bringing that VERY important post about Britney not crossing a picket line and while we might sneer at her music action speaks LOUDER then words, she should be commended for that, I remember Wham (George Michael) doing a benefit at Wembley arena for the Miners Strike, bless them.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
sunderbane, tel for a clean chat 0408 665632 - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:33:47 (BST)

JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: could support allowing workers to invest a portion of their payroll taxes in the private markets, but has never made explicit what kind of investments he would allow and in what circumstances; in 1991, one of only 10 democrats to vote to give Bush authority to use military force in the Persian Gulf; has supported and sponsored legislation establishing pilot programs in which the federal gov’t would give parents vouchers they could use to pay their children’s tuition at private schools, including those with religious affiliation: “The undeniable reality is that this system is already in ruins, and to blindly reject new models and refuse to try new ideas is simply foolish.”; has been critical of affirmative action programs which attempt to make up for past discrimination: “For after all, if you discriminate in favor of one group on the basis of race, you thereby discriminate against another group on the basis of race.”; criticized for favoring insurance companies at the consumer’s expense (the insurance industry is important to his home state of Connecticut’s economy and has generously donated to Mr. Lieberman’s campaigns); has regularly voted for legislation to limit damages which can be assessed in civil lawsuits: the American system of civil law has “gone way off track and become a lottery in which literally a few people do very well but most of the people injured don’t really get adequately compensated”; supports increases in the minimum wage and prohibitions against employers’ hiring permanent replacements for striking workers; for overhauling the campaign finance system; recently supported legislation which would ban unregulated gifts to political parties (soft money); pro-choice (National Right to Life Committee has criticized Lieberman’s record across the board); has regularly voted against efforts to reduce the military budget and supported submarines and aircraft built at least in part by the many military contractors in Connecticut; in 1995, co-sponsored legislation with Bob Dole requiring the president to break the UN embargo on sending arms to Bosnia; has voted for abortion rights, gun control, tax increases, welfare reforms, consumer protections, and civil rights legislation; has helped draft clean air laws; wrote the Pollution Prosecution Act of 1990; exposed lax security measures in nuclear power plants; supported laws to protect whistle-blowers; has criticized producers of sexually explicit and violent films, music, television programs, and video games (but had stock in some of the same organizations he criticized); pushed for electronic devices which permit the blocking of tv program which parents find offensive; has monitored a system of voluntary ratings to guide children’s tv viewing; has denounced rap music with lyrics which celebrate violence and drug use; “I’m going to do what I think is right on every issue, and not feel obliged to vote a particular way because it’s the party line or because people expect me to.” -- summarized from the New York Times
lazz <here's a topic>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:25:23 (BST)

RETURN OF THE DOUBLE STANDARD: Isn't it interesting that Keri has very harsh words for me (despite the fact that I didn't say what she accuses me of saying) but not a single word of scorn for "Bob Lucient Jr."?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:23:19 (BST)

Theo, Sonja, Alberr, Rob, Pete C, Pete W, Jon and Carsten: I just got home from work and opened my mail. Thank you so much. I can't tell you how moved I am. You are all so generous. I feel very unworthy. I am looking forward to lots of curry and guinness.
carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:13:48 (BST)

Luther m'dear, if you want to start a political discussion, I couldn't contribute much but like most people here (all more knowledgable than me) I'd be well up for it. Jump right in. I mean, the turd seems to be taking a while....
pete w <whistle for it>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:01:12 (BST)

constipated luther?
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:42:47 (BST)

keri, i hope that you don't get discouraged and leave the forum; keep reminding yourself "it takes all kinds to make a village"
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:39:55 (BST)

Keri: When I suggested that you slam a Yankees cap on Theo's head, I didn’t' mean it to be painful or injurious. I meant it to be playful. I wouldn't want one hair on Theo's head hurt in any way. But let's talk about something else. What do you think of the designated hitter rule? (This is a sports term--I am not advocating more violence--except what goes on between a ball and a bat.)
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:32:12 (BST)

I didn't tell Luther to go take a shit in the ocean, either, Keri. Never. Now I have real life things to do. I'm out of here.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:24:25 (BST)

i did read carefully... and if you really want to end up like so many others... i highly suggest you keep your hands to yourself...
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:22:35 (BST)

THAT WAS A JOKE!
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:20:47 (BST)

Kim: Surely you realize that I wrote and submitted my drama comment before your post was up. I was not referring to you, Danielle Steel, or Oprah.(And NOT Ayn Rand either as I feel she's been featured on BBgb plenty!) Just wanna make sure no one takes it the wrong way as the vibes have been a bit huffy here lately. I'm out.
Susan
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:19:59 (BST)

I looked at the reference you provided, Keri. Nowhere in that post did I suggest that Robin should be raped. You need to learn to read more carefully, dear. *pats Keri on the top of her head*
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:19:36 (BST)

21:01:58
keri <here you go....>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:17:56 (BST)

The funny (or not so funny) thing is, Jon, that Luther reminds me a lot of my husband. Please don't let that bit of information get out to the public.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:17:39 (BST)

enough drama for me, thanks. Ta.
susan
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:15:13 (BST)

SUSAN: I worked at a university music library and Rare Book Room once upon a time. I suppose we can credit Oprah for introducing Toni Morrison to much of "white" America but she frightens me sometimes with the literary mind control bit. So many people ask "How high?" (or, in this case, How much is the cover price?) when she says "Jump!" I recently found out that Danielle Steele has NINE children. Ayn Rand had none and she only wrote 2.5 novels. Coincidence? KERI: There are easier ways to make money than gay porn, sweetie, tho' it may be necessary to resort to it if you want to live in a pre-war West Village brownstone.
Kim
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:14:34 (BST)

Show me where I suggested that Robin should be raped, Keri. Show me.
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:12:47 (BST)

carol, i wouldn't hit anyone... giants or yankees, it's up to the individual... i'm a new yorker. always east coast... nothing else. i do however take offense to luther suggesting that red robin be raped etc..... you're sick luther.. until you have been sexually assulted i suggest you shut your fucking mouth before everyone here does it for you. how many web sites are you banned from anyway? we'd like to know.... my advice to all is ignore him... i do it to people at work... it irritates them more than getting into a verbal row. try it you just might like it. he seems to get off on everyones reaction... don't react, he'll get bored. and i'm sure he'll get his. still can't unpack... what to do with all these books?
keri
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:11:48 (BST)

Jeez, It's not full moon for a week yet and already it's started... Lucier - sod right off, you're a disgrace. I can't imagine where you get off insulting people like that. Luther - bobin's iron mask was pretty clearly meant to be a comic slapstick device to pad out her 'humerous' ungrammatic posting... of course iron-mask face slamming in real life would be a very serious assault.... don't try THAT at home kids. Now could robin and luther please kiss and make up - you know that, deep down, you love each other really.
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:05:55 (BST)

That's great, Lazz. I'll tell you what: I'm about to go take a massive great shit. When I come back, I'll post about it in vivid detail because, hey, my bowel movements are an appropriate topic for Billy Bragg's website guestbook. Right?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:00:28 (BST)

lazz, looks like your mac has the hiccups.
susan
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:00:09 (BST)

You are not restricted to posting messages about Billy. A wide range of subjects has been discussed here - something we welcome. We have stopped people posting images and HTML because they slow down the pag
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:56:37 (BST)

Fair enough. But does that mean that people should post messages like "Hey X, I got the photos, thanks!" to Bill's website guestbook? Or complain about their broken kitchen appliances? I agree that this forum isn't going to be the catalyst for a socialist revolution, but must we trivialize it to that degree? Can't people communicate silly personal messages via private e-mail?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:53:02 (BST)

What I'd like to say here is perhaps Red Robin and Luther need to "get a room" and work it out...? Brian: What are your favorite altered lyrics for "New Brunette"
Susan <boldassnewbie@stopthescrabblin'>
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:53:00 (BST)

Is talking about Billy Bragg a serious and important pursuit (other than for Uncle Bill, himself)? Come on, Luther. Put it all in perspective. This site IS a trivial pursuit. The more intelligent the mind, the greater the need for play. This is ALL play. A real revolution will not start from discussions here, no matter how serious they might be.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:47:11 (BST)

Ah. So because I'm openly critical of shallow people and trivial discussion, I've alienated certain people who like to post twaddle here. And because those people have come to see me as Mean Evil Luther, it's open season on me. Is that what you're saying, Robin?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:24:23 (BST)

Maybe if you didn't spend so much time telling virtually everyone who comes to this site what they are doing wrong ("We discuss things here in a more intellectual way than you may be used to..."), Luther, you wouldn't have alienated so many people around the world. If you used that shrewd intellect to dissect arguments rather than people, I think you would have gained more respect from some participants. You're a smart man. You just need to improve your interpersonal skills.
Red Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:20:53 (BST)

oops netscape on a mac cut off "error" (spelling police -- it wasn't a spelling error) .. susan, you know how to use "lie" and "lay" properly? amazing. i avoid them with the plague and it was a nightmare when i had to teach their russian equivalents (i know the russian ones quite well, thank you very much). i don't, however, have any problem with usage of the colloquial phrase "to get laid" . . . . . .
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:13:38 (BST)

"Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury -- raise the double standard." (Michael Franti)
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:11:31 (BST)

Susan: I have to make clear, that I actually agree quite often with Luther's political views and analyses; however, it is his propensity to attack others on a personal level that I find appalling. He frequently resorts to very insipid means of harrassing Carol, especially about her granddaughter (among other things); and it is particularly his obsession with needling and taunting her that is exceptionally horrid. Talk about hypocritical! Watch him carefully. You'll see it in time.
Robin
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:11:04 (BST)

You're right, Robin. I wasn't hurt by your comment, nor did I interpret it as a serious threat against my person. But it does a wonderful job of illustrating the BB guestbook double-standard. If I had said something similar to (or about) you, the people here would have immediately jumped my shit. I would have been skewered. But you can advocate violence against me, and no one (but me) utters a word against you. Isn't that interesting?
Luther Gaylord
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:10:51 (BST)

pam, i was only following the well established tradition of using 3rd person singular masculine to agree with the word "someone"; i wouldn't want the grammar police to find me in err
lazz
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:08:42 (BST)

If Carol says I should apologize then I'm very sorry, Pam.
Bob <the same as before.>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:06:46 (BST)

Favorite New Brunette LIVE version has to be on William Bloke tour: "Living on 'All Bran' and chocolate kisses"--Wish I had a recording of that.
Susan
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:05:41 (BST)

Lazz--I'm the one who called people hypocrites. Get the gender straight, eh?
Pam Raver
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:03:18 (BST)

Ithought I objected to the comments on Pam, but I guess that wasn't enough. What am I supposed to do, track Bob down and picket him? Well, Bob, you know I like you, but you should apologize to Pam. There!!! Does that make P & L happy?
Carol
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:03:12 (BST)

Did I miss something? Matt Groening's hopping into bed with Nestle? I think Luther is capable of not being a twit for quite a few days--I've been respecting a lot of what he's said the past few days and had the impression that he held sort of a"loved and loveable family scapegoat" position--which some people feel comfortable in or get off on.(But perhaps not while being referred to in the third person, eh Luther?) I'm a little confused about what's joking and what's taken seriously here. It is quite hard to detect sarcasm in an e-mail format (She types, earnestly.) By the way, my particular grammatical style involves lots of () and --- and .... so forgive me in advance. However I do know the proper usage of "lie" and "lay" and "there, their and they're" quite a feat for a Californian (#1 in prison spending, #41 in school spending!)
Susan
- Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:01:17 (BST)

I also really like the version on The Peel Session lp (just Billy and his guitar) - when I worked on the reception desk of Chrysalis they used to have the video for it on a big video juke-box and I used to put it on over and over again until the boss came down and told me "to fucking put something else on" - the problem was that the only other videos they had were Billy Idol and Milli Vanilli so I switched the machine off
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:00:14 (BST)

Think, Luther. Who the hell even has an iron mask? Who would bother to trek across 3/4 of a continent to touch it to your face? You expend so much time and energy picking at little things, that you make yourself even more trivial than the banter you ceaselessly criticize. I doubt that you are genuinely hurt by what I said. You are simply seizing on it as an opportunity to parade your pathos again. The demand for an apology is just another attempt to take control. If you didn't so rudely seek to control the discussion on this site, chances are, you would only encounter the normal amount of hostility from others that everyone else here experiences.
Red Robin
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:58:30 (BST)

why ever would anyone choose to hang out with a bunch of people he considers hypocrites??
lazz
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:55:08 (BST)

Kim: Oprah book club: Not a big fan of Oprah, but anything that gets the (opiated) massed reading (and NOT Danielle Steel) is good by me. Was odd to notice after a few days "Gee, there are a lot of middle-aged white women asking for Maya Angelou's book these days" then found out about Oprah's book club and that explained it all. Not quite revolutionary (enough for me anyway) yet if she's getting suburban middle class white ladies to look in on the lives of women of color (and poor whites--Connie Fowler's book "Before women had wings" was featured once--Heavy!) Right on to her. Are you a librarian? Public? Academic? That makes 4 "out" library folks on BBgb--Cool.
Susan
Santa Cruz, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:48:09 (BST)

The more relevant question, Robin, is: Are you going to own up to the fact that you did advocate violence against me, and are you going to apologize? Or are you going to try to weasel out of it by suggesting that "what you really meant" was that I should be hit in the face with a pie. Give me a fucking break.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:41:50 (BST)

Shit, Luther. Are you capable of going a day without being a twit?
Red Robin
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:38:23 (BST)

Pam: 1. This is not a list. This is a guestbook. 2. Scroll down a few messages and you will see that I am not hiding behind my anon*Y*mity. Even without the full name, plenty of others on this guestbook know exactly who I am. The fact that you don't is your loss or your gain, whichever way you want to look at it. 3. So it was more than a rude comment? What exactly was it then? Um, a really rude comment, I guess. 4. What kind of recourse would you like? P.S You're not *that* ugly. I was exaggerating for effect. P.P.S. Brian, I prefer the original version. P.P.P.S. Sincere apologies to everyone but Luther and Pam.
BOB LUCIER, JUNIOR <freemahkets@yahoo.com>
None of your fucking business, Pam!, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:36:32 (BST)

sonj: its gonna be Caroline!
Brian
London, Uk - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:35:13 (BST)

...ok...anyway...what version of Greeting To The New Brunette do we prefer - the original or the one on Reaching To The Converted?
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:30:25 (BST)

"I didn't really mean that Luther should have an iron mask slammed hard into his face. I meant...um...er...that he should have a pie slammed into his face. Yeah, yeah...that's the ticket -- a pie. That's what I really meant."
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:26:27 (BST)

Had it been Luther who made the comment instead of "Bob," there is no doubt what your reactions would have been. (And for the record, Robin, Luther advocated none of that) What a bunch of hypocrites you folks really, truly are. Shame.
Pam
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:24:50 (BST)

thats why I am so pissed off when Matt Greoning is so willing to hop into bed with them - even Krusty Brand Products were not that bad
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:21:29 (BST)

I agree with Sonj about Nestle - scumbags - encouraging third world women to use formula instead of there own breast milk was well shitty - they often cannot really afford it - there own milk would dry up - and they would often have to use un-clean water
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:19:50 (BST)

...anyway! just been watching Suburbia, a great film, videod it off the TV about 10 years ago and it has been lying around ever since.
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:14:33 (BST)

Theo is refusing my offer of a cap because he doesn't want to hide his lovely locks.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:13:03 (BST)

jeez - I leave you kids for five minutes and look what happens - right - all to your rooms and no-one is to come out until you can play nice
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:12:41 (BST)

Essentially, all I was envisioning was a pie in the face shaped like an iron mask (more along the lines of a Bugs Bunny cartoon). I would never have advocated shooting anyone, much less raping them - not even in jest. Not even to make a point. (The last sentence fragment was for poetic emphasis. It was not intended to be grammatically correct.) I apologize to Steve for ever criticizing him for talking about sports too much. I thought about this, and the last thing I want to be is one of the Salt Lake City Thought Police. There is something terribly ugly about someone who has to have control over ever venue he or she is in.
Red Robin
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:10:53 (BST)

No, Carol. That was more than a rude comment. But then if it had been aimed at you or Sonj or Barb or Robin, I suppose you wouldn't be pissed as hell? Cowards like "Bob" are afraid to make themselves known so they hide behind their anonimity knowing that the only recourse their victims have is to attack this way. Like I said "Bob," you're a sniveling coward, afraid to identify yourself to me or anyone on this list.
Pam Raver
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:53:18 (BST)

especially theo, who has such lovely hair. i am very jealous, but at least i will be able to wear the cap that Carol brings to britain!
sonj
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:48:34 (BST)

I am going to try to make this very clear: I think Pam looks very nice and attractive. Enough rude comments. We are all good looking, if cantankerous, people.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:40:31 (BST)

I found that disgusting and contemptible. You're not even worth the effort it's taking to write this reply. And get this, you better hope I NEVER find out who you really are you fucking coward.
Pam Raver
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:33:41 (BST)

tries
Bob <Still Very Confident>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:31:32 (BST)

Sonja, Ha ha ha! I should have made it clear that I was referring to a U.S. "public school" teacher. It would be quite harrowing to have Pam as a teacher, though, and I think that judging from her rogues gallery photo she's been shot in the face with an Eton rifle after being tied down and raped. Oops, my confidence in my opinion may be misconstrued as being misogynistic. I'd better go get my iron mask for protection when Luther tried to knock my teeth down my throat.
Bob <ExtremelyConfident@yahoo.com>
Confidence, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:30:16 (BST)

Have you Pompey people heard what's happening in Paulsgrove? Bloody Riots!
sonj
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:27:32 (BST)

Bobby, does pam teach at eton or harrow?
sonj <sorry, couldn't resist that one>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:15:42 (BST)

"After he made a disgusting, misogynistic comment to someone I care about." Is this even a complete sentence? Can I get a public school teacher's learned opinion? Pam, where are you?
Bobby L <same address>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:08:33 (BST)

Proof that Luther dislikes misogynistic comments and that his retaliatory veiled threat against Robin was only a rhetorical device that should not be construed as the ranting of a pathetic little man: "I did threaten to knock Schwab's teeth down his fucking throat if I ever met him in person. After he made a disgusting, misogynistic comment to someone I care about. But it was more a promise than a threat. You'd better *hope* we never meet in person, Schwab." [http://www.egroups.com/message/billybragg/287] Read the whole message. It's a fucking riot. I especially like the part that says, "What I think happened is that certain people decided (because of my writing style and the confidence I have in my political opinions) that I'm an arrogant bastard." CONFIDENCE!? I've never seen a less confident sad little fuck that had to force his opinions on everyone to reinforce his own "confidence"!
Bob Lucier, Jr. <freemahkets@yahoo.com>
Not Salt Lake City,, Thank God! - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:06:22 (BST)

You don't realize how much fun this site is unless you leave it for while. On the Michael Moore discusson, the Socialists and the Objectivests (followers of Rand) are threatening each other with death. There is some serious ranting going on. This seems tame!!!!!!!!!!! Carol, did you ever receive that package I sent you.
James
New Paltz ,NY, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:03:01 (BST)

I wasn't really suggesting that Keri slam Theo's head, just in case I am corrected by one of the regulars.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:59:39 (BST)

Carsten--you'd look good in a Giants cap. Everyone should wear one, even Theo who refuses. I am sure Keri will fly over to London and smack a Yankees cap on Theo's head. He can't escape baseball.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:58:43 (BST)

Night-Night, Luther. Night-Night, Everyone.
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:35:13 (BST)

How did I portray myself as a maniac, exactly? By shining a bright light on the guestbook double-standard?
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:23:58 (BST)

Luther, even for you - that was a bit of an over reaction. As I first suggested the mask, I apologise to you. Also to Robin, for putting ideas into her head. I'm sure you could have come back with something a little more humorous though, rather than portray yourself as some sort of maniac. Peace !
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:20:31 (BST)

goodness me, what a busy day! Kiwi Rob, Lovely to hear from you. I sent a copy of Front Lawn to Carol. We love it! Nestle is bad because they try to persuade women in third world countries to use formula milk. It is a bad idea because, among many reasons, poor families are tempted to overdilute it.
sonja 
back later, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:19:41 (BST)

Robin, don't advocate violence against Luther. He is not a jerk. He only wants us to speak with refinement, wit, and grammatical eloquence. Everythign he does is for our own good.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:07:14 (BST)

I need to have an iron mask slammed hard into my face, eh Robin? I wonder how "the regulars" here would react if I were to suggest that you should be punched in the face, or tied down and raped, or something similarly horrible. I'm quite sure there would be an outcry against me. So how is it that you can advocate violence against me and no one speaks up?
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:01:58 (BST)

arrgh!
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:55:26 (BST)

derik, 'breath'...my cat's breath smells like catfood..
Santa's 'Pedantic' Little Helper
Springfield, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:44:09 (BST)

"My cat smells like catfood."
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:30:55 (BST)

Brian, do I detect a fan of Ralph Wiggum from The Simpsons ?
Santa's Little Helper
Springfield, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:23:32 (BST)

I think Britney Spears is using Trojan Horse tactics to bring down the self-serving facile mainstream music industry from within - I think we should show solidarity - the last person to try this was Vanilla Ice and look what happened to him when he got found out
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:21:27 (BST)

"...fail at english...that unpossible..."
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:18:42 (BST)

...wasn't there a State that one famous person wouldn't be found dead in?
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth today, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:18:05 (BST)

robin you so cool
Barbara <canthopetotopthatone@home>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:07:34 (BST)

RR, apart from the 'Bragg people gag' that was possibly the first post I've understood in months. Thanks for that. The BBgb is all becoming a bit clearer now.
Atless Head
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:05:00 (BST)

Carol bring or take Giants cap time two to England for two different head. Theo and Sonj may not have same head. Carol and Luther could or couldn't care less and Luther need iron mask slammed onto face hard. Britney Spears don't cross (no) picket line and Bragg people gag. It was step in right direction for a rich kid. Not yous forget, Holly Near was once a CAP (Californian American Princess) and she change to political songs for a decade or two. No future history is written in stone. Damn, it hard to butcher English on purpose. Hope I gave someone a migraine with this.
Red Robin
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:54:27 (BST)

Carsten, I hope you're not suggesting that Utah is part of The USA and it's inhabitants are therefore American ?
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:42:53 (BST)

no major league baseball teams in utah..
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:41:26 (BST)

Keri, there are actually two teams in Utah (and you must follow one or the other...) :)
Carsten
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:38:38 (BST)

Carol, how many caps will you bring to the north of Ireland? (where you get skin cancer after only 12 mins in the sun...)
Carsten
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:35:47 (BST)

Carol, I've got an idea for a pressie....and it's even got a bit of a Billy connection. I can see it now "Luther : The Man In The Iron Mask".........bliss !
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:01:13 (BST)

i bet luther has a closet full of baseball caps. are there any teams in utah?
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 18:50:04 (BST)

What must I do to receive some "opiate of the masses" headgear from you, Carol?
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 18:48:01 (BST)

Theo is never rude or crude. He is an Arsenal supporter, though.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 18:47:31 (BST)

Having just read back my last post, I see that I may have left a door open for some vulgar person to get back with a 'witty' retort. I was not being rude but accept that the English language is littered with double entendres. Please accept my sincere apology. Love,
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 18:41:07 (BST)

A mate has just included this in an email to me. It was a question in a pub quiz which he was at : Which former Prime Minister said, "I suppose I must have made some mistakes, but I cannot think of any" ? If this takes anyone longer than 2 seconds I'll eat my hat.. erm cap..er Sonj's cap..whatever !
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 18:34:17 (BST)

It's official. Theo does not share Sonja's head.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:52:04 (BST)

Carol, would it be easier if you only brought one cap over to England, to help save everyone's confusion? I'm more than happy for Sonj to have it. Perhaps I can borrow it from her once I've hacked my barnet off. I can't really 'do' caps until then. Hope you ain't offended. BTW, I bet you'll forget about The Giants if we get to an Arsenal game together, whilst you're over... Love,
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:49:14 (BST)

Oh no. I will be the first person voted off the Bragg forum version of Survivor. I am grammatically purged. I could care less. Or is it couldn't care?
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:47:39 (BST)

Please remember in November that even though we might not like it, a vote for Ralph Nader is a vote for George Bush.
me <lesseroftwoevils.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:45:44 (BST)

I would put in my vote that Britney Spears is not attractive.
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:37:48 (BST)

Fair enough Carol I would expect any woman to say that but I wish Britney could write song as good as Billy's then my cup would really floweth over.
Andy Tyrrell
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:36:41 (BST)

Come on Eileen.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:36:35 (BST)

come on kate...
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:34:45 (BST)

carol's original message was for Theo, when she addressed Luther she was saying what she 'should have said' so they should have been quotes :)
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:31:41 (BST)

so where is luther from?
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:25:18 (BST)

"Spellin' it all out for my homeys!"
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:21:34 (BST)

Pam - if Carol's message was meant for people in the UK then she would be "bringing"
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:20:53 (BST)

No, Derik, I don't think you're right. I think Carol was implying that because I don't have a sense of humor, I didn't pick up on her joke. She found a legitimate basis for lumping Billy Bragg in with Britney Spears, you see. The reality is that I did "get" her little joke, but I didn't find it funny. I'll concede that it was rather ironic. But then I pretended that I didn't pick up on her irony, see? I took advantage of the opportunity to condescend to her and spell out the "I could care less" thing.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:20:15 (BST)

I would rather look at Billy all day long than have to look at Britney for a second. But it is cool that she supports the SAG strike. Let's give her credit.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:19:04 (BST)

At the risk of being accused of being Luther again, I guess I have to jump in and say this. Actually, Carol, you'll be "taking" two Giants caps to England with you since you are in SF as opposed to "bringing" them.
Pam Raver
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:17:28 (BST)

Luther: Believe Carol was referring to the irony that you are always the person to hassle people about answering questions. Yet, here I was trying to get you to answer a simple question and you would not.
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:13:51 (BST)

irony - isn't that a bit like coppery or steely?
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:13:39 (BST)

HOORAY!!! that right-wing git Pinochet has been stripped of diplomatic immunity
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:11:57 (BST)

Billy is crap to look at but great to listen to. On the other hand Britney Spears is great to look at but crap to listen to. So, who's best depends on wether you are in an aural or ocular mood at the time
Andy Tyrrell <andybragg237@yahoo.co.uk>
Grimsby, England - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:10:44 (BST)

You didn't understand my use of irony, Carol? Here, let me spell it out for you: Once upon a time here on the BB guestbook, Derik said "I could care less." I corrected him, and a huge debate ensued re whether or not "I could care less" was grammatically correct. So for me to answer Derik's question about ungrammatical literature with "I could care less" was ironic. Get it now?
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:09:33 (BST)

I must get down on my knees and beg forgiveness from the participants in our little grammar debate here. I should have said that I was bringing two Giants caps to Britain. My use of the word "cap" should have been plural in order to agree with the objects of the cap--Sonja and Theo. I inadvertantly implied that Sonja and Theo share the same head and therefore would wear the same cap. I'm sure everyone was confused and assumed I was insulting them. Grammar rules! (That is a pun--meaning we should all obey Luther's grammar rules and also that grammar is an absolute dictator.)
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:08:10 (BST)

A humorless person doesn't understand irony.
Carol
San Francisco, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:03:49 (BST)

And Derik, I could care less about ungrammatical "literature".
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:58:34 (BST)

The non-critical person lumps Billy Bragg in with Britney Spears.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:55:29 (BST)

What do Britney Spears and Billy Bragg have in common? Both support the Screen Actors Guild strike. Britney refused to cross a picket line to film a commerical recently. We know you have more on your mind than football, Theo, but when I arrive in England, I want to see you kick that ball over a goalpost or whatever you footy people do. Do you paint yourself with the colors of your favorite team? I promise to bring a Giants baseball cap for you and Sonja.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:51:07 (BST)

(as we've said before but with a 'y' after naught)
Brian's Mu
Juddea, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:38:24 (BST)

derik, No he's not, he's a very naught boy (as we've said before) !
Brian's Mum
Juddea, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:36:43 (BST)

Luther: You still haven't answered my question about ungrammatical literature?
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:36:24 (BST)

Brian: Are you actually my sister's ex-roommate's gender-switched missing twin brother?
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:33:47 (BST)

V.I.P. - http://www.vipactiontv.com/
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:33:44 (BST)

just wait till kate joins the club...
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:33:08 (BST)

who needs soaps when we have BBgb?
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:32:09 (BST)

what's VIP?
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:30:07 (BST)

Considering the things you have called me in the past that would not be so tough... but yes, I am.
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:28:27 (BST)

You're smarter than I gave you credit for.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:27:11 (BST)

So you are not actually going to answer my question.
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:26:30 (BST)

"It's all to the good, brother."
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:23:50 (BST)

I just told you, Derik. Everything is of equal value. I draw no distinction between Jack Kerouac and...say...the television show "VIP".
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:22:51 (BST)

Luther how do you feel about the ungrammatical nature of say.. Kerouac, or Burroughs... or John Cage.
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:21:23 (BST)

That's okay, Keri. All writing is of equal value, no matter how shallow or ungrammatical it may be.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:19:54 (BST)

ok derik... doesn't get "it" too bad i'm doing 7 different things at the moment.
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:17:17 (BST)

What would Billy do if he were in with Britney Spears?
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:17:05 (BST)

it was, but if he doesn't get then it's not my fault...
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:14:22 (BST)

Luther: I think 'critical' was being used with a different connotation.
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:10:31 (BST)

Carol, I have more interests than just footy you know ? For example.....er...example...erm I'll get back to ya. While I'm thinking can I just defend my beloved Islington. I was born 'n bred there and only left when into my twenties. There are some very rich people living there, but, also some of the poorest in the country. You really can see a difference just by walking 50 yards up the road, from my old council estate. How's this for a fact that might surprise ya ? Islington has more unemployed people than Newcastle-upon-Tyne. BTW, we're called 'Islingtonians' or....Arsenal fans....D'oh, I tried so hard not to mention 'em too. Perhaps you do have a point afterall, Carol. Love,
Theo
Made in Islington, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:07:10 (BST)

Is being "not critical" something to be proud of? A critic is a person who uses skillful judgment to distinguish truth, merit, etc. To be "not critical" is to accept everything as if it were of equal value. The non-critical person makes no distinction between Jerry Springer and James Joyce. She places W.B. Yeats alongside "Battle Dome". She lumps Billy Bragg in with Britney Spears.
Luther Gaylord
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:03:29 (BST)

Tettland - although I slag-off The 'Enders I have not missed an episode since it started - part of the fun of watching it is going into work the next day and moaning about how crap it is
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 16:00:30 (BST)

The devil take Luther! Thanks for the chat. Have to go now. See you tomorrow.
Tettland <all this talk of cookery programmes is making me hungry>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:56:03 (BST)

Don't you have enough cooking programmes in the US, let alone importing our shows with their cheesy-showbiz presenters. I do a mean chicken curry for what it's worth ...
Tettland <not quite a culinary genius>
Copehagen, DK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:53:26 (BST)

don't worry i'm not critical like luther...
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:52:21 (BST)

Sorry that should read "... or do you just love Ainsley Harriot's good sense of humour?" - I really must learn how construct sentences properly!
Tettland
Copehagen, DK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:50:46 (BST)

well i can sort of cook... i really won't cook just for me... ainsley has a show here in new york... i did love him while i was over there... ready steay cook was another quality program.
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:50:42 (BST)

Why, Keri? Can't you cook, won't you cook, or you just love Ainsley Harriot's sense of homour?
Tettland
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:45:57 (BST)

i always wanted to be on can't cook, won't cook...
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:43:02 (BST)

Sonj and Brian - why so down on Eastenders? OK, they're patronising stereotypes, invented by coked-up Islington-ites but doesn't Brookie paints an equally clichéd picture of cheeky-chirpy scousers. As for the Grundies on the Archers... All soaps paint with broad brushstrokes. I can't get Brookie or the Archers over here but I'd given up on the others long before I left the UK anyway. PS. Didn't Noam Chomsky say that Can't Cook, Won't Cook is funded by US taxpayers via the CIA in an effort to maintain US hegemony within Euroland?
Tettland <cheeky-chirpy-cockney-scouser-knees-up-howsyerfarver!>
Copenhagen, Denmark - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:36:36 (BST)

Sonj: The package arrived last night, and I will open it with KT KT on Friday. Yes, keri, I am going to vacation in sunny England.
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:33:10 (BST)

Keri: I hsave decided to quit my job and move to England where Sonja will support me. I will do video documentaries of Theo running around football games shirtless. When I am finally kicked out of the country, I will get CBS to show my vido footage on Survivor, and the audience will vote each week to kick someone off the forum. The last one left will get to post messges to him(her)self. Happiness will reign. No controversy. No opiates for the masses (unless Theo wins--then its all footy).
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:32:19 (BST)

hiya kim... just relocated to prospect heights...lived in park slope, ft. greene and who knows maybe next year brighton beach. things in the city have gotten out hand with the cost of rent etc....hell i would do gay porn if i could.... where are you from kim?
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:22:09 (BST)

KERI -- Whereabouts in Brooklyn have you moved to? Do you like it? An old friend of mine lives on Nelson Street, but from what I hear about the cost of living, I think he's waiting tables and starring in gay porn to pay the rent (no, I'm not kidding; wish I were). "Breakfast of Champions" -- wow -- I went to high school with Vonnegut's nephew or grandnephew and used to drive past the old family house on my way to classes while at college. I kind of like "Bluebeard," obscure and silly. Would have liked "Slaughterhouse 5" quite a bit had it not been for the dog torture scene...SIOBHAN, I felt panic on your behalf when I read your post about the IRS. I never ever turned in my tips when I was a waitress. I was very lucky that I didn't get audited cuz it would have been hard to explain why I was never "officially" tipped (other than the fact that I was one of the worst waitresses to ever curse the service industry)...SUSAN, hi there newbie! Librarians rule! I must know, are you amused, delighted, or appalled by the Oprah Book Club?
Kim
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:09:37 (BST)

next week they are showing footage of a man who had his genitals squashed when the side of his house fell on him - its a wall-on-the-flies documentary
Brian <its been a long day>
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:03:37 (BST)

derik, I hear the next 'real-life-docu-soap' is about a 'real-life-docu-soap' film crew. They get followed around whilst they're going about their business of filming...er...a real-life-docu-soap ! Should be really interesting ? Fritz, let us know how your test went. Cheers,
Theo
London, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:52:02 (BST)

talking of Noam Chomsky - didn't he imply that The Archers was the Mogadon of the masses in one of his books :)
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:49:49 (BST)

talking of Noam Chomsky - didn't he imply that EastEnders was the real opiate of the masses in one of his books
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:44:57 (BST)

Lovely piece of sarcastic journalism on the BBC website (talking about the Leo Blair photo controversy): "'All he was doing was walking into church with the baby going to the christening. That's nothing. Brooklyn [her son] was photographed on the front page totally naked. So imagine how I feel when he [Mr Blair] starts complaining.' Posh Spice's outburst coincides with the release of her solo single next week. "
Dyl
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:43:20 (BST)

Part of the second sentence to my message below disappeared. Either there are connections now missing in my brain or the message from we have is evil and tricky. Or else I want to vent revenge on all those people in Norethern England whom I won't be able to understand. Anyway, here is the second sentence of my message. Yesterday, I received my copy of the Amber Films video, "In Fading Light," about North Sheilds fishermen and women. If my more than ten-year memory of it is accurate, I know I probably won't be able to understand most of what people are saying."
Carol
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:40:42 (BST)

ah, all this talk about eastenders and brookside is making me miss england. i think i'll pass on cable tv for the time being... it's only NBC that's all blurry and yucky... found my copy of vonnegut this morning... come on derik... read the book. don't you know school work always comes second? carol, are you going to england?
keri
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:37:17 (BST)

Yesterday, I received my copy of the Amber Films video, "In Fading Light," about North Sheilds more than ten-year memory of it, I know I probably won't be able to understand most of what people are saying. However, I understood most of East Enders. I guess I'll be able to communicate in most parts of the South. I am looking forward to stumbling around the northern part of England mumbling, "Huh?" My major concern with East Enders is, if this is part documentary, does everyone there stalk women, beat their children, and do teachers try to have sex with their 15-year-old students? Sounds like the US!
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:35:23 (BST)

test.
Fritz Peterson
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:31:22 (BST)

I do not understand the current influx of tv shows that are 'real' or documentary soap operas. Can't people suspend disbelief anymore and enjoy fiction?
derik
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:05:39 (BST)

Hold on DK...and SUNDERLAND AFC and don't forget NORTHAMPTON TOWN
Steve <getting itchy on a saturday afternoon>
even though Im 12000 miles away, theo have apie on me on the 19th - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 13:18:46 (BST)

James: as a self-confessed Ken-ite I can confirm that Alberr is correct (but I would say that) - I just hope he can build some more cycle-lanes so that I am not nearly killed by vans (like I was this morning)
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:38:24 (BST)

Gosh Brian - I thought that was a well kept secret
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth Today, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:31:59 (BST)

DK, that was beautiful man. Nick Hornby would've been proud. Just off to dry my eyes.
A. Gooner
Highbury, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:20:22 (BST)

DK - "Where were you when you were skint?". See you at Sixfields on the 22nd!
Dyl
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:13:24 (BST)

...my illusions were shattered when I realised Billy did not look like Robert DeNiro...
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:08:56 (BST)

Show me the country where bombs had to fall, Show me the ruins of buildings once so tall, And I'll show you a young land with so many reasons why There but for fortune, go you or go I -- you and I.
Phil Ochs <There But For Fortune>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:07:02 (BST)

sonj: I have Craig in the office sweep-stake!
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:06:42 (BST)

EastEnders is in fact a docu-soap - there are hundreds of hidden cameras dotted around a small working-class community situated in East London -- and not, as some people thought, a patronising drama written by coked-up Islingtonians, who think that Plaistow is pronounced Play-Stow
Brian
London, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:02:12 (BST)

The line might actually begin 'There but for Fortune...' rather than 'Grace of God' though ?
Santa's Little Helper's Little Helper
Springfield, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 11:01:16 (BST)

Kiwi Rob, good to have you back ! The name you're looking for is 'Phil Ochs'.
Santa's Little Helper
Springfield, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 10:57:29 (BST)

Football is drama, it is a real life soa opera with a history and emotion. It is good guys, bad guys, things of beauty, things of tragedy - on loan goal keepers who score in the 93rd minute to prevent relegation, it is victory or defeat against the odds, it is about love and hate. Sport shows what human beings at their finest are capable of physically. Sure sport generally and football in particular are artifical constructs, they are a drug - they provide elation, hope and fear in bite size two hour packages on a weekend and something outside the humdrum on the weekend. It is tribal, it is communal - in a good way not in a Chelsea Headhunters way or Millwall racism way. Long live Fulham FC.
dk london
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 10:38:24 (BST)

Sonj!!!!! you sent me the tape ...merde.... Paddy...someone...I want to quickly download a bit off Napster before the poor bastards get killed.... Is Napster like Nestle?... I am working in Geneva...next to Nestle HQ.... can someone be bothered reminding me why Nestle are bad boys...so I can be armed with "Corporate mindset" changing info when I bring it up at drinks on Friday nite. Sincerely....Rob G...fully ensconsed back into Corporate life...but still Red on the inside!
KiwiRob
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 09:45:49 (BST)

Hey...I've been away for 6 months....now I am trying to remember the name of a singer....you guys will know for sure...he sings that song.."But for the Grace of God, there goes you or I"...please!
Kiwi Rob
New Zealand/London - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 09:41:38 (BST)

Hi James, Answer: London is a better place.
Alberr <alberr59@hotmail.com>
Portsmouth, UK - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 08:56:24 (BST)

Just came home from the ball game. The Giants won again. Go Giants. Have fun, all you stoned out masses. Whether via footy or baseball, we'll conquer the world. It ain't all grim and gloom and no fun. And I thought anarchy was just one big party. (I actually don't think that.)
Carol <themassesrule@opiumcentral.pacbellpark>
Jolly Giantville, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 07:34:22 (BST)

ah, now i know where my generation went wrong jared. We had Bob Dylan to councel us!
sonj <aged hippy, so much older then but younger than that now>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 07:05:28 (BST)

Siobhán: she has shown him and now he seems to have premature ejaculation problems. My little hormone chargers must be working, i didn't cry. I gave up brookie after the 28th death in the crescent but i am being drawn back .....
sonj <sorry to be so parochial>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 07:01:58 (BST)

That's funny, ever since I started listening to Billy Bragg, I've taken everything he's written as an absolute truth. His lyrics have kinda become an encyclopedia of emotions for me (and politics as well). Whenever I feel something I can't pinpoint, I put on a BB album, and he tells me what it is. Crazy? Probably, but is there anybody more qualified to council a guy my age?
Jared <JaredDuran@aol.com>
Scottsdale, Az - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 06:50:18 (BST)

Lindisfarne is the opium for Laura
Steve
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 05:22:12 (BST)

No
Pam
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 05:12:18 (BST)

the rest of the gb is sleeping?
lazz
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 05:08:48 (BST)

Theo 0 - 3 ??..a bit rich that prediction mind...2 - 1 to Sunderland..oh dear this mindless banter about sport, well at least it helps me prepare for war??..Ive freed up my e-mail account as some repressed sad discontent spunk-bubble loser has been dripping at the mouth while sending me massive e-mails and much porn (spam)stuff..Its not for me to speculate who it might be getting a cheap thrill..oh ok why not, I think Its probably god.
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
brisland, Moby - 0408 665632 - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 04:39:09 (BST)

elvis DOES live on the moon .. alan hull said so
lazz
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 04:35:09 (BST)

Laua, prove Elvis doesnt live on the moon..
steve
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 04:20:38 (BST)

what do you mean, "because Bill happens to sing something it doesnt mean it is true or reality"?? i have been promoting him as the messiah judaism has been anticipating (never mind he isn't jewish (at least, as far as i know, he isn't), christ wasn't christian) next you'll be telling me that spaceships don't land in cornfields and that elvis doesn't live on the moon
lazz <DON'T MESS WITH ALAN HULL>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 04:07:51 (BST)

free yourself from soft rock and pop culture!
lazz
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 03:56:51 (BST)

i haven't seen notting hill (i won't add "yet" because of the debate about the meaning of "yet" in high fidelity")
lazz
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 03:55:34 (BST)

I remember watching East Enders with my significant other who is now my wife. She used to insist that they put "subtitles" so she could understand what they were saying. You know what they say, "Americans and Engilsh are one people separated by a common language". Question: What has happened since Ken "Red" Livingston become mayor
James
New Paltz,NY, - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 03:49:34 (BST)

extreme... it's preposterous. In a rural community like ambridge she'd be much more likely to use a shotgun!
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 01:10:33 (BST)

I'm lost. What sport do the Archers play? (apart from archery, that is)
geoffwilson@uq.net.au
- Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 01:01:18 (BST)

I'm an Archers fanatic but Ruth is getting on my tits (sorry, sorry). Just let David lok at your chest woman. I too, wish Kathy would go Bill Bongo and waste Linda with an Uzi. Does that sound really extreme? (I've had a few vodkas)
Siobhan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 23:53:45 (BST)

sonja: East Enders is the only thing I've ever seen. It went on and on for two hours, and everybody just whinged (whined in my country) about sexual harrassment and abusive fathers.
carol
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 23:36:28 (BST)

brookside, possibly ....
sonja <one too many ciders and thousand miles behind>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 23:31:03 (BST)

hands up any archers fanatics....
sonj <too much sex in ambridge! kill the snell woman! >
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 23:29:28 (BST)

but not 'east enders' in this house carol!
sonj
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 23:27:59 (BST)

here is the corrected version of waht I just wrote: Keri: Here's the story on my digital cable service: I had seen everything all fuzzy and double for decades, and I finally got tired of it so I ordered this expensive service. I actually like some TV, like Roswell and anything that revives paranoia about government conspiracies. I like to watch those weird docudramas where real life crimes are re-enacted very badly. My grandson and I sit and laugh at them. We also play the X Files game where you sport reoccurring lines of dialogue--the first person to spot Scully saying "Where are you Fox?" gets to take a drink of beer (or for Derek, ginger beer). The person to finish the beer (fake or real) first wins. But when I got my digital service, I saw first of all that those Roswell teens weren't so good looking after all and my imagination was better (aka Cissy Hinds) and secondly, 100 new channels weren't any different than 3 or 4. However, I am looking forward to watching the tellie with Sonja.
Carol
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 22:26:10 (BST)

Keri: Here's the story on my digital cable service: I had seen everything all fuzzy and double for decades, and I finally got tired of it so I ordered this expensive service. I actually like some TV, like Roswell and anything that revives paranoia about government conspiracy. I like to watch those weird docudramas where real life crimes are re-enacted very badly. TheMy grandosn and I sit and laugh at them. We also play the X Files game where you sport reoccurring lines of dialogue--the first person to spot Scully saying "Where are you Fox?" gets to take a drink of beer (or for Derek, ginger beer). The person to finish the beer (fake or real) first wins. But when I got my digital service, I saw first of all that those Roswell teens weren't so good looking after all and my imagination was better (aka Cissy Hinds) and secondly, 100 new channels weren't any different than 3 or 4. However, I am looking forward to wathcing the tellie with Sonja.
Carol
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 22:18:39 (BST)

brian: if she leaves i won't watch it any more!!!
sonj
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 22:10:00 (BST)

Theo: I love Carters cover of the Pet Shop Boys 'Rent'
Brian
Londond, Uk - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 21:52:18 (BST)

Sonj: poor anna!
Brian
London, Uk - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 21:50:47 (BST)

my junk e-mail is telling me it is 'sisters day'. I presume that is siblings and not a feminist celebration..?
sonj <itll be over here soon if they think their is money to be made>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 21:32:59 (BST)

bogues, there was a discussion on here once about ayn rand and i think it is fair to say that her fame hasn't exactly reached this side of the pond.
sonj <what a busy monday while i am at work with no internet access!!>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 21:13:52 (BST)

"Geeky SF fan as a teenager" - in case there's any doubt, not referring to San Francisco. However, I nowadays AM quite a fan of SF the city, especially after a wild night out there with a couple of resident friends last year - my only ever experience of a gay biker bar. Like Village People on steroids. Wow...
Boguespierre
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 17:26:13 (BST)

Brian & Dyl...yep (well, New York was the S&G one before the Pedantic Police get us)! Susan, that was one of Billy's very best live covers, I thought. Did he have his whistle fingy with him ?
Theo
London, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 17:19:36 (BST)

Well done Bogues. I never knew about Rush being that way inclined. I'll have to dig out my vinyl and re-read the lyrics.
Dyl
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 17:17:44 (BST)

Dyl - "Spirit of Radio" by Rush, apeing "Sound of Silence". I recall rather enjoying Rush as a hairy 16 year old, but being horrified to hear that they were a bunch of neo-fascists according to NME. I've no idea if that was true or not (I was at the sort of age where you believed things in the NME), but apparently they were great fans of Ayn Rand. I recall the same cold-water shock when I realized the same thing about Rober Heinlein (having been a typically geeky SF fan as a teen).
Bogues
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:45:08 (BST)

Got to see Disposable Heroes play with BB in S.F. They did "Groove is in the heart" toghether for the encore!!
Susan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:39:35 (BST)

PLEASE. No more Mermaid Ave.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:36:52 (BST)

I thought Billy said, no more Mermaid Avenues.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:36:20 (BST)

susan: check out the Beatnigs and The Disposable Heroes of Hip-Hoprisy - also did anyone else see in thsi months Uncut that Franti is working with Bragg on Mermaid Avenue 3? (prob. old news around here)
Brian
Londond, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:35:38 (BST)

derik: by the way, thanks for the philly update. In Seattle (last Nov.) I only caught the Jello Biafra/Spearhead show 'cos I was willing to go in the "curfew zone"--what a load of crap. Scary martial law police state goin' on. Speaking of Mr. Franti--his performance that nite was weak. too much ganga, i'm afraid. From what folks said here the other day I should check out the beatnigs. Spearhead used to put on quite a show and their first albun has some great messages. (But then, I never checked out that Gil Scott-Heron site...)
Susan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:31:07 (BST)

"The Only Living Boy in New Cross" is the Carter USM song in question. By return the following lyrics were by which band in which song, and what Simon and Garfunkel were they apeing? "For the words of the profits were written on the studio wall, Concert hall"
Dyl
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:30:24 (BST)

Theo: can I play - is it The Only Living Boy In New Cross
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:26:31 (BST)

Too tough for me, Theo.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:17:17 (BST)

Carsten, what sort of guess was that ? Another one to keep yawl going. Which Simon & Garfunkel song did Carter USM play around with on a title ala Billy Bragg styleee ?
Theo
London, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:08:49 (BST)

This middle class fruitarian would like to add that while sports can be beneficial, our oppressive society has tweaked it with the oppression of men of color--using them (up) to create profit for guess who? (rich white men, duh!) Competive sports also serve as a training ground to prepare young men to kill other men in war. Go team! I'm not saying don't be a sports fan, just that of course there are many negative factors of the sports industry. I'm speaking of the US--the only country I know about thnks to our freaky imperialist egocentirc ways... thanks BBgb for letting me in on the lives of my non-US earthling comrades! I hope I don't get too opiated by my thrice daily visits here--I swear man, I can quit anytime I want!
Susan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:58:51 (BST)

My consolation is that I am in a small quiet branch, with only one full time co-worker, so I pretty well out of sight of everyone else.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:55:21 (BST)

derik: Tell me about it! And how about library admin. who don't know the first thing about how the damn place works! I have a fantasy about becoming a manager and treating my staff really well. Keri, right on! Library folks rock! Billy once used the public library as an example when responding to a challange about whether socialism worked.
Susan
Santa Cruz, CA, usa - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:42:29 (BST)

Yikes! That is a tough one... 101 Dalmatians? haha.
derik <Ready to break out the old Carter USM Cds>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:30:10 (BST)

Notting what?
Carsten
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:29:51 (BST)

derik, Correct ! Now name his favourite film ?
Theo
London, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:25:26 (BST)

I had a friend who wanted to be a fruitarian... I don;t think he ever actually was one though... "Fruit Bat" isn't that the guy from Carter the Unstoppable Sex Machine?
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:20:57 (BST)

derik, 'Fruitarians'. I only found out what they were last night. I was possibly the last person on earth to see the film 'Notting Hill' and one turned up in that. If they only eat things that fall out of trees etc and were therefore already 'dead' anyway, do you think a rabbit run over by a car would be fair fodder ?
Fruit Bat
Rowntree's , - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:14:43 (BST)

Steve, you like footy too then ? I've been trying to email ya but it keeps getting sent back. What's occurring, you having problems with your end (Ooer) ? Ps, 3-0 away win to our boys. Pps, Uncle Billy knows footy has a place in life. If not, he wouldn't have referred to it in no fewer than 14 of his songs. Laters,
Theo
London, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:03:25 (BST)

Don't insult the fruitarians, Fenster!! Haha.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:46:08 (BST)

i went on saturday... good game... what the hell are we paying jeter for? i always make my own decisions...
keri
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:43:17 (BST)

you know, because Bill happens to sing something it doesnt mean it is true or reality.
Steve
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:40:30 (BST)

Natalie Merchant co-wrote "Bread and Circuses," Luther. And Keri, if you're a Yankee fan, you'll need your cable TV. Don't let prosletyzing anti-TV people guilt you into making decisions -- they sound like preachy fruitarians... Make up your own mind.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
having suffered through yesterday's 11-1 drubbing in person, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:38:40 (BST)

Carol, Postman Pat arrived today, I will read throughly while in the bath tonight...Thank you
Steve
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:37:53 (BST)

I see slime ball Jeffrey Archer was doing a book signing in Brisbane today, I considered buying an Egg to throw at the twat, but as it was $55 to get in I thought it might be an expensive Egg...so I crawled back to the terraces...lolol
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
sunderbane, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:35:57 (BST)

Some arse said..."Sports *are* the real opiate of the masses" HAHAHAHA...I'll tell you what is more *opiate* than Sport and that is some wankeing middle class psuedo utopian anarchist with a degree up his arse which allows him to sneer at working class people for doing what they will in their recreation time...give me a break...so Theo 19th August Sunderland V Arsenal...a draw I reckon??...opps sorry, back to the peaceful utopian anarchist dismantling of the british government and all higher authority structures.blahblahblah
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:32:26 (BST)

Siobhán: I am typing this as I drink my morning coffee before I rush out the door to my clerical job where I become a tiny part of a big bureaucracy. Susan: I love Pac Bell Park. It is beautiful and it has instantly become a vital part of the city--people walk aorund it, admire it, etc. The Embarcardero has become a public space--people stroll around the waterfront and piers, skateboard, rollerblade, bike, etc. It's very beautiful, and Pac Bell is well integrated into the overall plan for that part of the city. James, you could check out the San Francisco chapter of the US Labor Party. He mail me privately and I will give you details. I would watch television if there were something to watch. I like the X Files. I like to watch baseball. I am one of the masses and I am opiated.
carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:27:25 (BST)

thanks for the wonderful cable tv debate--my point was it's all about good reception (no fuzzy lines on local stations) not about the quanity of shit channels i wouldn't watch anyway. i do read. i too work in a library...i'm an archivist not a librarian. i highly recommend working toward an MLS... my copy of breakfast of champions is some where in my flat... all the books and cds haven't been unpacked yet.. how horrible is that?
keri
brooklyn, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:18:01 (BST)

pete w: discard that last message - mis-read yours
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:13:33 (BST)

pete w: the point I was (obviously) making was that you cannot judge a whole medium because of a few choice examples
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:09:18 (BST)

In other news: Philly cops (by order of the FBI) shut down a DIY punk show this weekend, because there was fear there would be more protests?!? They really are outta control.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:37:26 (BST)

Susan: I work at a university library. I probably do more than the actual librarians here, but get a hell of lot less pay and not nearly as much vacation (they get two months a year! I get three weeks.) RE: TV - I admit to watching probably too much TV but I read a lot too. Sometimes I am too tired or unfocused to read a book (which will be Breakfast of Champions this week thanks to a certain Bragg fan.)... Never could get into sports, I am constantly sickened by how much the players get payed here in the US. Besides baseball is the only one I actually understand the rules and workings of.
derik
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:36:10 (BST)

Carol is everyone's mum on here, Siobhán. {but the fada she copied from me...:)}
Carsten
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:12:36 (BST)

Actually, I'd rather read murdoch shitrags than watch Walking with Dinosaurs...they're marginally less patronising :)
pete w <rrrrr>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:09:56 (BST)

Carsten, I'm not up to speed with exactly whose who but I think you're from Belfast, right? Working in London, well I s'pose it depends what you do and where. Before I had kids I used to manage a betting shop in Stoke Newington which loads of people would think was a crap job but I loved it. I actually really like waitressing, mostly because the people I work with are great and we can be secretly subversive if the customers are arseholes. Do you work? Carol, You've endeared yourself to me by putting an accent on my name and my mum used to write it like that, anyone from SF is potentially exciting to me because I have a passion for Armistead Maupin, is he really loved over there?
Siobhan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 12:33:57 (BST)

Carol and Sonja - I wouldn't bother hanging an effigy of Nelson and setting fire to it (although my wife did consider it when she realised that our Horatio was responsible for laying waste to a sizable chunk of her city, Copenhagen, in a trade dispute a while back). I would however consider burning an effigy of whoever thought up the idea of charging adults £6 each to go in and see the ship. Be warned. Just listened to The Home Front from Taxman ("And when it rains here, it rains so hard ..."), gets me every time. Sucker for melancholy that I am. I'm with Brian on TV/reading debate. I think Chomsky stated that sports watching encourages irrational jingoism. I don't think he means that it necessarily has to, just that it tends to within the existing social structures etc. I think too much of one thing to the exclusion of everything else - whether that be opera, Eastenders, sports, BBgb, or whatever else for that matter - isn't particulalry good for anyone.
Tettland <s_tett@hotmail.com>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 12:17:32 (BST)

Luther, it's frivolous, petty, unimportant in the grand scheme of things, I take it too seriously, but I can't help it. I love football! Sometimes we all need something to divert our focus from our humdrum lives. Or is it just me who has a humdrum life. Watching sport is one of the few communal activities left in society. Bread and circuses? Give me more of both!
Dyl
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 11:42:14 (BST)

Apologises for missing a 'was'. Then again, what would anyone expect from a footy fan
Theo
London, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 11:35:49 (BST)

Luther, why shouldn't there being "mindless pastimes" like sport. Sometimes it's nice to remove our heads from up our own arses and chill for a while. Would it be ok if we were all into the opera ? I don't think you should be putting yourself above anyone by dissing their hobbies. I wish I 'so' intelligent that I couldn't enjoy myself with anything other than politics. Cheers,
Theo
London, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 11:30:32 (BST)

I rest my case.
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 10:31:15 (BST)

If anyone cares, Santa's Little Helper was right with his/her answers to the fotie quiz, except that The Irons were meant as Scunthorpe. I know West Ham are referred to as the Irons from time to time, but in this context I would class that as secondary to being called the Hammers. Still correct though!
Dyl
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 08:42:12 (BST)

James C- You could check out the Bay Area Solidarity Branch. Solidarity is a Socialist- Feminist org. Visit our web site at www. solidarity-us.org I am testing the home computer set upp ( brought home from our other bookstore) not a new computer, but new to having it at home. Can anyone send me a WPA sampler if I send you a blank disc? I can't get them anywhere here in the southern mich boondocks -_Aim
Aimee England <volume1books@voyager.net>
Hillsdale, MI, United States - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 08:39:40 (BST)

Sports *are* the real opiate of the masses. People don't just watch "their" team play. They read about 'em in the newspaper, follow their stats, and debate with co-workers about positions, standing, players, etc. They wear clothes which feature "their" team's emblem. They obsess over this mindless pasttime, while the world marches on. All the while, the capitalist class whispers "Praise be to God. The blamed fools are still watching our circuses!" (See "Bread and Circuses" by B. Bragg)
Luther Gaylord
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 07:49:09 (BST)

talking of Noam Chomsky - didn't he imply that spectator sports were the real opiate of the masses in one of his books
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 07:29:25 (BST)

just thought I would wade in here when I read all this TV v Reading stuff. It pisses me off when people dis the old "methedone metronome" - fair goes watching Ally McBeal may not be as worthy as reading Noam Chomsky but by the same token I don't think reading Danielle Steele, Jeffrey Archer, Tabloid newspapers, Jackie Collins or Andy McNabb is more worthy than watching Walking With Dinosaurs, Rebel Music: The Bob Marley Story, Newsnight, The Nazis: a Warning From History, etc just because the words are printed on paper
Brian
London, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 07:27:21 (BST)

I'm glad to see some postings from the Bay area. I was wondering if anyone knew about any interesting political organisations based here in SF that as a Billy Bragg fan I might be interested in joining. I'm a member of AI but I am interesting in finding others. Cheers. James.
James Cowdery <jamescowdery@yahoo.com>
San Francisco, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 06:14:19 (BST)

Siobhan: That sucks the big one about the audit. I forget sometimes that mine is not the only country that does wac things to working folks. Carol: What did you think of the new "Pac Bell" park? I took in a Giants game last season just to say goodbye to "the stick" tho not a big baseball fan. Also: happy to have finally registered Green the other day (July 26, infact, a great way to celebrate the anniversary of the Cuban revolution!) Just can't bear to have to choose between coke and pepsi again when what I want to drink is water!!!
Susan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 04:52:28 (BST)

Crap. this place is addictive-- I guess a reflection of the interesting people here... Derik:I'm only starting school next month. I worked at the Santa Cruz public library for 2+ years as a clerk and also supervising student pages. The Masters in Library Science I feel will be an asset in an activist sense as well--helping people find information and moving their lives forward. Looking forward to it. What do you do at the library? Academic?
Susan
Santa Cruz, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 04:40:44 (BST)

Siobhán, here in the US waitresses have to be very careful about their tips, as they can get taxed big on them. It seems the US Internal Revenue Service goes after little people. The big tax cheats get off easy.
Carol
San Francisco, - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 04:17:37 (BST)

A few hours afer I typed that women talked about more than the stuff that the charcaters talk about in the HBO program, Sex and the City, I went to a Giants game. The women sitting behind me were totally indifferent to the game. All they talked about was who their boyfriends were sleeping with (besides them). Well, some women talk about the world at large. The Giants won, and retain their first place in their division. However, I doubt they could beat keri's beloved Yankees.
Carol
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 03:51:14 (BST)

hi Siobhán, what's it like to work in London, anyway? (never done it (yet))
Carsten
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 03:19:33 (BST)

Hi James, couldn't see myself voting for either whore [and pretty sure Billy wouldn't, then again, you never know ;)] Nader seems the only one electable, would be great to see a president of the usa like him someday...
Carsten
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 03:10:10 (BST)

Good evening everyone: The only reason to have cable is watch BRAVO- Awful Truth with Micael Moore and some occasional blues specials. Ralph Nader is coming to the Hudson Valley to Historic Rosendale NY. Rosendale, named after the wild white rose of the Hudson Valley a delicate flower that lasts only three weeks at the most, was a working class factory town with stone quarries,cement kilns and canals - Deleware and Hudson being the most famous. the town cuts throug the Schwank Mountain ranges with beautiful old homes with "turrett roofs" It was a company town with man living in barreck like arrangements. Those "turrett like roofs were actually bordellos that provided "services for the men after they drew their pay. Such a histroy, such a place to recieve America's only politican who is not a "whore" Ralph has promised to provide an open forum and will take questions from the audience.- no screening of any kind. Pete Seeger will also be there, Shame Billy can't make it.
james
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:29:13 (BST)

Keri: I'm with Susan. You should read!!! Susan: More library people! How are you finding library school. I work in a library and am considering going for the degree so i can get a better position.
derik <dbadman@astro.temple.edu>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:29:00 (BST)

Hello, I've been following the forum for ages now but been too shy to join in but I've got to have a bit of a rant now. I've just got in from work after a double shift and opened yesterdays letters to find I am going to be subject to an audit from the Inland Revenue. This would be understandable if I were an entrepreneur fat cat type but I'm a waitress at a bloody Harvester, (for those of you not familiar with the brand, its a cheap steak 'n' chicken 'n' ribs type place for families). I earn the minimum wage and when that came in I got a 50p an hour pay rise. What do the revenue think, that the tips I get enable me to avoid tax on a large enough scale to warrant investigation? Excuse me while I go and wallow in my mink-lined bath whilst gargling champagne (all paid for by the restaurant going public of North London) P.S. My BB credentials are sound, One of my fondest possessions is a postcard the man sent me in '85 when I was an infatuated 16 year old.
Siobhan <RLCJRF@aol.com>
London, U.K. - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:46:38 (BST)

Id rather sleep, eat, read, and have sex..all at the same time..time for my milk thistle and dandelion..
Steve
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:10:57 (BST)

if it's recreational reading i'll often shortchange my sleep to finish the book, but rec rdg is a rare thing these days. here's a great sandwich: baguette, fresh basil (lots), pepperoncini (lots), tomato, and provolone. yum.
lazz <i'm hanging a screen door., don't worry -- it's a compassionate hanging>
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:06:38 (BST)

Kim, the only one I know is very subtly called 'Nelson's farewell' by the Dubliners. A cracker!
Carsten
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:29:50 (BST)

Frequently, I'd rather read than sleep!
Susan
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:29:39 (BST)

i'd rather sleep than watch tv (reading is just a precursor of sleeping)
lazz
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:19:42 (BST)

i'd rather sleep than watch tv
lazz
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:17:47 (BST)

steve's still in bed? isn't he making you all breakfast?
lazz
- Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:15:54 (BST)

Keri, I have to agree with Carol on the t.v. thing. I've lived without cable t.v. since living on my own. (VCR for movies only) There's so much to do in the world and so much that needs to be done. I don't know how people find time to watch t.v. I'm biased, of course, as I am a librarian to be (just starting grad school this fall at San Jose) but if you're at home not interacting with people, wouldn't you rathter just read a book? I consistently feel so insulted by the stuff on the idiot box (sexy "feminine" women, strong "masculine" men, girls who like barbie and war toys for boys) I feel sick after watching just a short bit of it. Just say no and take up martial arts, gardening, joining a literacy campaign, fighting for what you believe in, spending time with the children in your life etc. The only time I find myself missing t.v. is when I'm ill and can do almost nothing. My solution? Comic books! Lynda Barry rocks my world. Sorry for the tirade-- you did ask for hobby suggestions, no? Eat your vegtables too!--"Grandma Sue"
Susan N.
Santa Cruz, CA, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:14:45 (BST)

Steve introduced me to Billy Bragg and my fave so far is Mermaid Avenue, but then again I saw the Yardbirds in 1964 and thought jeff beck was cool, Steve says im the same age as a strumpet from hants
Alex
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 23:43:07 (BST)

Hiya Alex here steve's brother (again) Im off back to England tomorrow so I'll maybe see you all another time..I had a look at the rogues gallery, nice guitar Kim.I have a 1962 Gibson 335, but I took the Woodstock sticker off a few years ago(steve forced me)he's in bed I think Ive ran him ragged this week. Cheers. Alex
Alex (Steve's brother) <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 23:39:00 (BST)

www.guardian.co.uk/US_election_race/Story/0,2763,351155,00.html
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 23:09:53 (BST)

Carsten, what's the name of the song about Nelson's statue being blown up in Dublin? Don't happen to have a Clancy Brothers CD handy...
Kim
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 23:06:43 (BST)

Hester: what are you gonna be studying?
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 23:02:31 (BST)

Hester: you may be one of the youngster who crowd around the entrance of the platform at South Woodford at 9.28am (just before the cheap travelcard come into effect) while I try and fight my way through
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 21:15:59 (BST)

sonj: Sylvia Pankhurst liked South Woodford (she was the one who wanted votes for ALL women, not just the toff ones) - either Nicola, Caroline, Nick or Craig next - also if you get a chance, up London, check out Marx's house (Francis Wheen's new biography is quite good - what little I have read so far) or the pub where Orwell used to hang out (was up there a few weeks ago - can't remember the name off the top of my head)
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 21:13:25 (BST)

except he lives in the real country now and does fetes and stuff.
sonj <still catching up>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:59:01 (BST)

i'll keep my fingers crossed for your grades. South Woodford is not far from Billy Bragg country.
sonj <hellen mirren on the telly in five minutes.>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:58:02 (BST)

hey sonj, things are fine, ive just run of stuff to do. how are you? south woodford ay? my halls may be there (if its the 'south woodfood' in london, and if get the grades)
hester
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:50:30 (BST)

hi hester, how's things?
sonj
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:47:18 (BST)

Brian, i one spent an unhappy time in south woodford, always afterwards known as SFW. ( that nicola gets on my nerves )
sonj
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:46:14 (BST)

can i join in the favourites thing? i love that kind of stuff, i think i should stop reading crappy magazines (hey, i was bored). my favourite album would have to be 'back to basics' (two and bit for the price of one!). i cant really listen to a huge amount of his other stuff, its a bit eighties and cheesy, and im shallow.
hester <mulletspice@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:44:53 (BST)

i wish it to be known that i was nowhere near my baby brother's pc when it blew up in the middle of an important job.
sussex strollop
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:42:58 (BST)

Hi, If anyone has worked out the chords/tabs to either "Airline to Heaven" and "Blood of the Lamb", I would greatly apreciate it if you can mail it to me. Tx a million. - Ash
Ash <rhema@rocketmail.com>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 19:57:38 (BST)

Carol, the ship is in the royal naval dockyard. It probably isn't treason if you hang the effigy but i had better try and stay out of prison while i am driving you round the south of England.
sonj
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 19:30:26 (BST)

Sonj: David and I are always interested in how poor people worked and lived, so Nelson's ship sounds interesting. Can we hang Lord Nelson in effigy off the main mast? Carston, what is Nelson's column--is it some kind of phallic reference? You mean it isn't upright anymore? Those members of the aristocracy--impotent and useless.
Carol
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 19:21:39 (BST)

The concert at TLA in Philly has moved from the 13th to the 16th? I inquired about that at Ticketmaster three hours ago, and was not told this. Does anyone have the straight story on this (before I put any $$$ down on this)? Also, my son informs me there are no seats in TLA. Apparently this is a standing-only concert.
Red Robin
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 19:20:26 (BST)

Carol, I'm thinking of taking you to Nelson's column in Dublin [or rather the place where it stood :)]
Carsten
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 19:08:42 (BST)

Yes, the 'eleven plus' has (unfortunately) never been abolished over here. But with education minister Martin McGuinness there's a pretty good chance it'll be gone before too long... - fingers crossed.
Carsten
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 19:06:34 (BST)

Carol, i am thinking of taking David and you to see nelson's ship. It is quite fascinating to see how the poor sailors had to live.
sonj <just catching up!>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 18:44:02 (BST)

Carsten, any questions and gardner's question time were both from over your way this week. (Beeb doing 2 for the price of one? ) I didn't know you still had the 11 plus!
sonj
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 18:41:38 (BST)

have been away, staying at mother in law's place. (usual stuff, flooding washing machine and hoover that doesn't hoove.) On the way to visit her in Barking Hospital we drove past Billy Bragg's old school. Alberr when to one nearby. He says they were both posh schools. Billy Bragg's Mum worked at Alberr's school. ( have i mentioned this before, more than twice?)
sonj
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 18:37:01 (BST)

Keri: My advice is: Don't get cable TV. I finally broke down and got digital cable--it is very expensive, and my television comes in better. Unfortunately, I have about a 100 channels, and there still isn't anything to watch. It is a waste of money. The only thing I like is The Independent Film Channel, but I can rent videos and see the same stuff for less money. I have HBO, and I watched Sex and the City. After ten mintues, I turned it off. It is an insult to women. The working women I know (who are secretarties, waitresses, service workers, etc.) talk about other stuff besides sex and men. We are engaged in the world. Then I tried the Sorpranos. I got through it once. Haven't returned. Who needs neurotic gangsters? I have bosses. That is enough. On another topic, I like William Bloke, but frankly, I seldom listen to it. I listen to Back to Basics,the Internationale, Peel Sessions, Workers Playtime. I don't like all the love songs, but I like the one about going home and crying like a baby. There is such honesty in that one. It takes courage to examine the way young man act out their pain in anger in order to avoid the real pain they feel. I really admire Billy for having that kind of openness and real courage.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 18:18:32 (BST)

so it's official... i'm in my new flat...watching the neighborhood change by the hour. the damn door to the roof is locked, the yankees lost yesterday, and god forbid i'm considering getting cable tv. so the date the date changed... i can still get to philly from here. i guess i should cut down on my trips to the pub so i can get a train ticket. derik, have you given much thought on how you're getting up here? do you get much vacation time from your job? it's so peaceful when you live alone and don't have a stereo. i'm looking for some new hobbies. any suggestions??? i think i'm going to unpack some more... moving sucks!
keri
bklyn, - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 17:44:46 (BST)

i think that the william bloke album relly grows on your after a while, but i love worker's playtime. i love it even more after reading Still Suitable For Minors. i also really enjoy the new cd, Reaching to the Converted, and can't wait to see Billy when he comes back to Philly (hopefully he won't make fun of my goatee this time!)
steve <sjg72@aol.com>
philadelphia, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:34:54 (BST)

Matt - I don't KNOW that the Philly gig has moved, but at Ticketmaster the date has changed from 10/13 to 10/16 - look at this link http://209.104.33.200/cgi/artist.idc?type=merch&searchname=BILLY_BRAGG&majorcat=CONCERTS&minorcat=31
Boguespierre
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 12:14:47 (BST)

To like WB (William Bloke), or not to like WB? That is the question ... I've always thought of BB as a songs artist as opposed to a albums artist (albeit with a couple of absolutely corking albums to his name). For me, the tracks that stand out on WB are Everbody Loves You Babe, Brickbat ("I steal a kiss from you in the supermarket/ I walk you down the isle, you fill my basket .."), The Fourteenth of February and Sugardaddy (Billy sings falsetto!). And though the words are good I just can't listen to Northern Industrial Town. If pushed to choose an album, I'd plum for Talking To The Taxman ... for sheer consistant brilliance and because it has Levi Stubbs' Tears on it - sheer genius. It's so hard to choose but I think St Swithuns Day is probably my all time favourite BB song, but then again ...
Tetland <missing all the good British telly>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 12:02:21 (BST)

Decided to join in the discussion--comments about favorites suck me right in. Nick Hornby charmed me with his top 5 lists. I've been a fan since 1989. First Billy I heard was Back to Basics. However my favorite has always been and will remain Worker's Playtime. Though it's Billy's politics that really rouse and inspire me it's the heartbreak songs that bring such a delicious sense of human frailty--something that men rarely show outside pop music and not usually in such an enlightend way: "He's screaming and shouting and acting crazy but at home he sits alone and he cries like a baby". Incredible! Just got turned onto Jeff Buckley and he SLAYS me!! So important to see men showing emotions and vulnerability. William Bloke has never managed to grow on me much--though I like to blame a particular ill fated romance's inception on "The 14th of February"... I love that song!
Susan N.
Santa Cruz, California - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 06:22:05 (BST)

HUH? what do you mean the philly gig has moved?
MATT STROMBERG <EXPATRIOT66@YAHOO.COM>
UPPER DARBY, U.S.A - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 06:02:00 (BST)

The only other Billy Bragg fan that I know of in Arizona is my uncle. I've tried, unsuccesfly to get others, but.... That's probably why there's no current plan for BB to do a gig out here. That and it's f*cking hot! For the next couple of months anyway. Why do I like Workers Playtime and William Bloke? Because they both begin with the letter w. I'm not usually good at explaining why I like an album, though it's usually because of the lyrics (great ones such as "Waiting for the Great Leap Forwards," "The Only One" and "Life with the Lions" from WP and "Goalhanger," "Everybody Loves You Babe," and "The Space Race is Over" from WB).
jared <uselessbeauty@yahoo.com>
scottsdale, az - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:41:51 (BST)

I don't own that many bragg cd's, but of those I have, Don't Try This at Home stands out as having some really, really crap tunes. Which is a shame because all the lyrics are excellent, and Accident Waiting to Happen kicks jangly indie arse....
pete w <imposter>
- Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:59:02 (BST)

Sonj: the chose the wrong one on Big Brother
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:35:23 (BST)

Andy Lewis: I would recommend the Victim of Geography CD - 2 great LP's (minus the one weak track) on one disc
Brian
London, Uk - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:33:46 (BST)

Jared - re: William Bloke - sorry - its my least favourite cd as well - its not rubbish, just when you have been spoiled by all the others (each one a mini masterpiece) your expectations become very high. You are coming to Bragg from an interesting position not having the baggage (!) (or should that be Braggage) of us old-timers - although I love The Boy Done Good from that era - one of my favs.
Brian
London, UK - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:31:01 (BST)

To Chris (I think it was) from Tambourine Mountains (I was down your way yesterday)...regarding Culloden..(settle Kim)my ancestors were a sept of the MacIntosh Clan, but few us showed at Culloden...John Alexander was one of the first people to arrive at the scene after the massacre at Culloden the next morning from Inverness...he was disgusted at the brutal treatment of the wounded and dying jacobites by the british ...his comments that it should be stopped was seen as anti-British and he was subsequently kicked around the streets of Inverness..He was the father of my first relative to leave Cromarty and Inverness for the shipbuilding of Sunderland in 1762...
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
Sunderbane, - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:18:22 (BST)

Arrgh! the Philly gig has moved? Bad news indeed. You here that, Keri? Might need some plans changing.
derik
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 23:04:08 (BST)

I've just got into Bragg. He is amazing. I have loads of MP3s, but which albums should I buy first?
Andy Lewis <a_man_called_a@hotmail.com>
Great Wakering, England - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 22:58:38 (BST)

Jared, there are other BB fans in AZ? Maybe its more a matter of personal musical taste than "enlightment"....Why do like William Bloke and Workers Playtime?
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 21:59:48 (BST)

Reading through here, I noticed that some people were saying how much they like William Bloke. In the past, when I have mentione dto fellow BB fans that William Bloke is my second favorite BB album (Workers Playtime being #1), I have gotten nothing but disapproving shakes of the head. Why's that? Are these fellow fans just not as enlightened as I am?
jared <uselessbeauty@yahoo.com>
Scottsdale, Az - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 21:48:09 (BST)

wow thanks everyone for your suggestions now i'll know what to look for. i did hear part of that world cafe session that my brother taped for me. sadly the tape ran out and i missed the end. the offical mermaid ave bootleg you say? where can i find that? oh and did anyone see the man in the sand documentary?
matt stromberg <expatriot66@yahoo.com>
upperdarby, U.S.A - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 19:33:33 (BST)

Babs, A few questions for you: How many people do you know who actually make money from their websites? How many musicians have you seen who GIVE away old collectible stuff on their site to fans rather than make a killing by auctioning them on eBay or similar? And lastly, how many banner ads have you seen on this site?
Kim <widgetlovingg@l>
USA - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 18:38:51 (BST)

According to Ticketmaster the Philly gig seems to have slipped to Monday October 16th. Clearly Woody was right that these dates are not firm.(Interesting that the tickets are already on sale though...).
Boguespierre <mtfowler@mediaone.net>
USA - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 18:25:35 (BST)

Tetland - before I get tarred with the toff brush I'd better point out I was at St John's in the days when you had to pass the eleven plus to get there - I understand it went private a few years after my departure in 1977. That was about the time Priory Comp became a comprehensive - before that at least part of it was Southern Grammar for girls, and the source of all 3 of my significant Pompey-based romances. In my day the occasional rumble took place with Southsea Modern, which for all I know also became part of Priory. I recall many incidents centring around the Singing Kettle cafe down the end of Marmion Road. I'm only continuing to post publicly in case of any other Portmuthians who haven't responded to Tetland's message, but I'll take anything further offline to just Sonja, Alberr and Tetland (not wishing to incur Luther's purist wrath...).
Boguespierre
Starting to drift off-topic, USA - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 18:19:05 (BST)

Hej Sonja, Jeg har det ganske godt. Hva' med dig? My last posting seems to have disappeared from my screen so I'm writing for the 2nd time. I was pleasantly surprised to find that my last mail illicited the responses that it did. I grew up in Southsea and i still have family scattered around Pompey. I ended up in København 3 years ago bacause of my Danish wife and I love it and am intending to stay. Boguespierre will be pleased to know that I went to Priory Comp and recall the odd reccy down St John's for scraps with the toffs but have now found less violent means of fighting the class war. Apart from family my main connection to Pompey are my friends who are mostly all teachers in local schools (City Girls & Lord Nelson). Carsten, talking of things Naval, Portsmouthian and Danish, did you know that one of Nelson's most celebrated "victories" was the bombing of Copenhagen. Nice, eh . . .
tetland <s_tett@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 17:37:09 (BST)

I've just sent a message but can't see it yet. How long does it take?
Tetland <s_tett@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 17:24:27 (BST)

Tetland, I have an uncle from København. Apparently his grandfather was an admiral in the Danish Navy who won some minor battle against the Germans... - You see, the world's a village :)
Carsten
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 14:09:03 (BST)

Tetland - I also am Portsmuff, but far more pure bred than Sonja. Well actually both my folks originated far from Pompey, but I grew up in North End. Corpus Christi junior followed by St John's which is a bit of a cultural clue, but I've long since been in recovery :-)
Boguespierre <Brian: We DO know Woodford... I'd keep it quiet if I were you.>
Boston hinterlands, USA - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 13:17:43 (BST)

...where-as Essex is the real centre of the Universe...
Brian <IonlySay LondonCosNoOneKnowsWoodford>
London, UK - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 11:19:13 (BST)

Sonj: Big Brother - I was gonna mention it a couple of days ago but thought I might get told off for being "a sad voyeuristic fool glued to the idiots lantern" - which off course I am - it is addictive though
Brian
London, UK - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 11:15:45 (BST)

yes they did teach us how to use capital letters at chi high but my typing style seems to exclude the shift key.
sonj <pop up posters of the world unite!>
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 10:48:20 (BST)

Tetland, hvordan har du det? ( i feel i can use 'du' as we must already be friends, having met on the BBgb). I am actually from Sussex, i went to Chi High (chichester girls high school)and have always lived this side of the border. However we really are moving to Havant! My daughter Lisa does live in Southsea. My husband is from essex but seems to think that Portsmouth is the centre of the universe down here, whereas i know it is chichester! My Mum is danish, she was sort of liberated by my father in 1945 and i have several cousins and suchlike living in Kobenhavn.
sonja pedersen <braggpuss@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 10:45:42 (BST)

Hands up all the people from Portsmouth! I look in from time to time and sitting here in Copenhagen it's great to know that there's a strong showing from the city i grew up in (though I much prefer living here). Is it true Sonja that you're from Portsmouth?
Tetland
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 10:15:03 (BST)

ok, is anybody else on here going to admit to watching Big Brother ???
sonj 
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 10:14:53 (BST)

Babs, this site is certainly fruity. However the words 'own' and 'official' are debatable.
sonj <braggpuss@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 10:12:31 (BST)

have a lovely time pete, and jill and seth and lydia and jack.
sonj
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 10:07:55 (BST)

' Our first gig was a benefit where we opened for political activist Bernadette Devlin-McAliskey. I was playing electric guitar, programming a drum machine and Chris was wailing on the pipes, various whistles and bodhran. We laid into the audience with a fury inspired by fear of failure. After about fifteen minutes, someone roared out: "For Christ's sakes, play an Irish song!" To which I replied, "I'm from Ireland. I wrote the song, that makes it Irish. So shut the fuck up!" ' Larry Kirwan. Black 47. www.black47.com. And no, I'm not on a commission....
Pete
London, England - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 09:58:59 (BST)

OK, I really *am* on me hols and off-line for at least the next fortnight, but seeing my two favourite bands in the history of the world (Black 47 and Weddings, Parties, Anything) mentioned within the space of a few posts inspired me to write. The Black 47 Milwaukee video Jeff refers to is indeed superb. And yes, "Danny Boy", rewritten for a gay friend of Larry Kirwan's who was the victim of homophobic violence, is typical of Larry's ability to turn stereotypes upside down. Brilliant stuff. And on the Mick Thomas (who was to WPA what Larry is to Black 47) front: rumour has it that he will be over in the UK in September. Watch this space.
Pete Crook <petecrook@bigfoot.com>
London, England - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 09:49:24 (BST)

Actually, the Mick Thomas show is next week - 11/8
Chris <teachers@tmc.qld.edu.au>
North Tamborine, Australia - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 07:19:07 (BST)

Any WPA fans reading - Mick Thomas plays his last Australian show for a while tonight in Melbourne. Miles from me - but hopefully helpful to some Bragg fans. He is recording a new album soon.
Chris <teachers@tmc.qld.edu.au>
North Tamborine, Australia - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 07:16:38 (BST)

I never thought I'd see the day that Billy B would have his own official website. I guess Capitalism, and all it's fruit has won afterall.
Babs <babs-yoshi@home.com>
Toronto , Ontario - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 06:29:46 (BST)

the guinness site, www.guinness.com, also explains the constructivist theory of the widget concept
lazz
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 04:59:59 (BST)

WIDGET: http://www.breworld.com/the_brewer/9611/widget.html
Bogues
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 04:22:43 (BST)

Anyone understand how that widget works?
derik
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 04:09:10 (BST)

I just saw on TV a live concert on TV by Black 47 and an Irish dance group The Trinity Dancers, flimed in Milwaulkee in 1998. The show was a mix of interviews of Larry Kirwan & others commenting on Black 47 and the Irish dance group interspersed with live performances. Very interesting. A rousing version of James Connally (the audience sang along the chorus), something that sounded like a rap but was really more ska-ish (they worked "Police & Theives" into the song), a version of Danny Boy with a gay twist (!), and, of course, Funky Ceili. This is band really has an interesting mix of punk/alternative and trad styles.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 02:33:43 (BST)

The message from my brother was his baptism(arghh) to the internet, as a shrink he's totally shot away anyway..(:)..so Im not responsible..for myself either come to that
Steve
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 01:25:30 (BST)

Are there any Big Tim Buckley fans here..I picked up Starsailor yesterday and its brilliant, I have Greetings from La, Live in London and Honeyman which I love..any more recommends here...by the way, I bought a mint condition vinyl album by an American guy called Ray Owen the band is called Ray Owen's Moon and he does some great guitar stuff..its old about 1971..I think he was in a band called Juicy Lucy not sure though..anyone in USA know this?
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 01:21:06 (BST)

I got my information from several web sites on the Newspaper strike..there are lots on the web...I started with union reports then information that was taken from the strike web site and got two e-mails, one from a journalist who was on strike, and one from a guy who has worked there 30 years, I also read the several newspapers angle..(scary)..and many other reports also the teamsters position. Thats all I wanted really, some information from all angles. Obviously not the same as being there, part of the strike, the same with the Miners for many people...but thanks anyway
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
brisbane/sunderland, sunnyone - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 01:09:21 (BST)

i meant bouncing blokes
kevforster <kevforster@btinternet.com>
worthing, uk - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 00:57:46 (BST)

hey bill# hows about a taster mini album of original stuff before the new album. you must a head full of songs for you and you re boucing blokes by now what dy say
kev forster <kevforster@btinternet.com>
worthing, uk - Saturday, August 05, 2000 at 00:54:21 (BST)

You are mistaken, Jeff.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 23:01:14 (BST)

Gee whiz Luther, I thought the Salt Lake area was completly dry...that "bars" in that town are such that you bring the bottle and they provide the set-ups.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 22:49:55 (BST)

Not many bars in my part of the United States have draught Guinness, so I have extensive experience with both the bottles and the cans. The cans are far, far superior; I'd rather drink Corona Light than touch bottled Guinness. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000526.html
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:59:03 (BST)

Exactly! And what did the bastards do so the small amounts don't look so pathetic in a pint glass? - You guessed it, they made their glasses smaller.
Carsten <stickinwithgermanorczechbeersoutsidethepub>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:54:56 (BST)

that's 4 times 440ml. I have just seen there is a helpline number on the can. I think i am probably beyond help!
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:39:34 (BST)

bogues, in southern ca, at least, we get 4 packs or 8 packs of 14.9 oz cans .. is it different on the east coast of the US? (i've never bought the glass bottles) with the 8 pack, you don't have to fight as much because there are 3 cans left over :-)
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:37:10 (BST)

i like it better without the widget if it isn't proper draught. At the moment you get a free guinness glass with every 4 cans in the co-op. Well it saves washing up!
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:37:07 (BST)

Lazz - For a reason lost in the mists of history, Guiness (and most other beers) are actually sold in ~16oz cans in the UK. So not so different. Anyway, I think the best math you can do is actually 5 cans to get 4 British pints. Then you fight over the last can in the sixpack....
Boguespierre
USA - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:22:18 (BST)

i managed to listen to parts of the republican convention without vomiting. they are definitely trying to win the election at any cost -- their flat out misrepresentation (to the point of portraying some past events as the complete opposite of what they were) of many past political occurrences was absolutely disgusting, although not surprising. i'm not old enough to remember a republican president before reagan, but examples from the reagan era of flat out lies abound. while gore may not be ideal (what political candidate is), he is far better than bush and unfortunately, in the current american system, a vote for anyone other than gore will only help bush (and his idea of compassion) come to power.
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 21:19:24 (BST)

It's compassionate to have concentration cmaps, too, because they reduce crime. In the US, we throw people in prison for very long terms on drug charges and these people are African American, Latino, Native American or poor white people. However, since these recipients of Republican conservative compassion can't vote, I guess they won't have an opportunity to thank f***king Bush for reducing crime
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 20:59:44 (BST)

i bought 2 20 1/2 ounce pint (british) glasses yesterday for 99 cents each .. they were rejects, although they seem to hold liquid quite well. so you brits can drop by for pint, although we'll have to open 3 cans of guinness to get 2 pints -- guinness cans in the us are 14.9 ounces *sigh*(i'm not sure if they allowed for the widget)
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 20:52:03 (BST)

Chris, I trust the link I provided below because that's how I got my CD in the past year.
Jane
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 20:47:30 (BST)

Chris: Jane's link is okay if you want to order blindly. But if you're curious about which tracks are on the CD, where it was recorded, etc. you'll want to visit the link I provided below. It's part of Mark Warner's excellent Braggtopia! website.
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 20:36:20 (BST)

a quote - Peter Robinson: It's compassionate to reduce crime, and that is the concerted effort behind the application of the death penalty in Texas.
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 20:20:42 (BST)

Re: Republican Conference - check out http://news2.thls.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/forum/newsid_861000/861264.stm - makes interesting reading
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 20:18:33 (BST)

Chris, Luther's link is OK if you just want to sit and gaze at it. But if you want to order No Pop, No Style... in the US, I'd recommend checking out http://home.dti.net/joly/bragg/cdform.html Incidentally, I was just listening to it this morning!
Jane
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:52:01 (BST)

NO POP, NO STYLE, STRICTLY ROOTS - http://www.webone.com.au/~bragg/Albums/RedUS-disc.htm
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:46:33 (BST)

living on earth's web site is www.loe.org. *sigh* too many wintergreen altoids, i fear. is the lydia story true? i'm scandalized that the teacher would act that way, and happy that lydia is so brilliant.
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:41:36 (BST)

What's on the No Pop No STyle album? Izzit only availablem in the UK?
Chris
Detroit, US - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:41:23 (BST)

Lazz, right you are. How about all those "Pay Lake" and "Beware of Owner" signs? Good way to get your ass sprayed with buckshot by some paranoid. There was a rural census volunteer who was found mauled and half-eaten by dogs a couple of months ago... Hello Alex-Steve's-Brother, glad to have you among us. Now there's someone who will understand all those oblique references to Anne Parsons!
Kim
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:24:44 (BST)

Fans of daft fun... check out the dignified guardian tribute to the Queen Mother [ flash player required ] http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/queenmother/flash/0,6189,350470,00.html ... help the QM decide what to wear, wide choice of accessories including plastic platform sandals, a copy of the Socilaist Worker and a 'castro beard'
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:13:16 (BST)

i'll bet corporations in sweden post no trespassing signs .. any swedes out there to comment? nonetheless, it's nice that the countryside can be enjoyed by all .. definitely not the case in the us
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:06:46 (BST)

No Trespassing signs are a common sight in the United States. But in Sweden you'll never see a No Trespassing sign. Instead, there's an open invitation to use the land, and that includes private property. In Sweden, anyone can enjoy the pleasures of the countryside. It's an ancient entitlement known as Allemansratten, or the right of public access.
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 19:05:06 (BST)

Seth and Jack are both Tottenham fans too. We all go to games whenever we can afford to - which ain't very often because the prices are *criminal*. The reality, incidentally, is that Lydia's Mum is a Chelsea fan - *sigh*.
Sergei Crook
London, England - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:59:36 (BST)

oops make that read "more kentucky bluegrass lawns in san diego than in seattle". since i'm posting again, try checking out "living on Earth's" website. www.loe.com. it's a radio show; you can listen to past shows, and it also has some great (written, as opposed to spoken) info on the web site
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:59:15 (BST)

There are more Kentucky bluegrass lawns in San Siego than there are in San Diego? Huh?
Luther Gaylord
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:53:09 (BST)

does anybody want to sell Dylan Tickets for the portsmouth guildhall gig??
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:50:42 (BST)

5-6 posts below should have read "the summers in seattle are the dry season" .. glad to know upstate new york is into organic gardening. since i don't have a car, i miss having organic gardening supplies just down the street.
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:50:00 (BST)

but what about jack and seth?
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:49:47 (BST)

WoW. Billy Bragg live and in person on the Forum. Who would have thought. I dropped off the scene for a while, chasing dear ole' Bobby Dylan around north america. But back to find Billy communicating with his most enthusiastic musical supporters - nice one mate. Sounds like a tour's a-brewing . . . COME BACK AND PLAY NORTHERN CALI. (The Fillmore, Great American Music Hll, the Warfield, the Boulevard in Woodside) Hope to see you out here where the high tide's rising . . .
KC Wind
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:49:10 (BST)

one last thing on the subject of organic gardening: in seattle i lived 1 block away from Seattle Tilth's composting exhibition. it was my favorite place to take visitors. :-p where else can you see a composting exhibit?
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:43:17 (BST)

on the subject of planting veggies in your yard: depending on where you live, this may *NOT* be a good idea. if you are on a street with a lot of traffic, or near one, you may be ingesting all the pollutants from car exhaust which settle on your plants and soil.
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:41:05 (BST)

An Islington school teacher explains to his class that he is an Arsenal fan. He asks his students to raise their hands if they, too, are Arsenal fans. Everyone in the class raises their hand expect one little girl. The teacher looks at the girl with surprise and says, "Lydia, why didn't you raise your hand?" "Because I'm not an Arsenal fan," she replied. The teacher, still shocked, asked, "Well, if you are not an Arsenal fan, then who are you a fan of?" "I am a Tottenham fan, and proud of it," Lydia replied. The teacher could not believe his ears. "Lydia, tell me, why are you a Tottenham fan?" "Because my Mum is a Tottenham fan, and my Dad is a Tottenham fan, so I'm a Tottenham fan too!" "Well," said the teacher in an obviously annoyed tone, "That is no reason for you to be a Tottenham fan. You don't have to be just like your parents all of the time. What if your Mum were a moron and your Dad were a moron, what would you be then?" "Then," Lydia smiled, "I'd be an Arsenal fan."
Sergei Crook
London, England - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:39:54 (BST)

We have lots of organic gardens and places to be buy nonchemical fertilizers and pesticides.
James
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:38:26 (BST)

Lazz, today is the first sunny day in the Hudson Valley we have had in weeks! We have had a deluge of rain. I think all of the moisture that is suppose to be falling in the West and South West is trapped up here! Corn is getting high. One more thing La Mazz does not always work.
James <summerfallwinterspring98>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:36:52 (BST)

and on the subject of veggies, after a year, i have finally found an organic farm and a place to buy soil which doesn't contain chemical additives (in seattle, this was not a problem. concern for the environment was far more common and organic products and soil were easily available.)
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:36:06 (BST)

veggies are my favorite lawn grass :-) .. a bit of irony: there are more kentucky blue grass lawns in san diego which is a desert region there there are in san diego, where it rains 10 months of the year (the summers in san diego are the dry season, which has inspired the move to plant drought resistant lawns)
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:33:39 (BST)

Lazz, forget lawngrass, grow vegetables: Ralph Nader without question as far as guitarists, ther is a new person out there Mayueri Coryell, the son of Larry Coryell, the man has the most incredible pair of hands. His debut recording contains a remake of Marvin Gaye's Sexual Healing (I'am serious" You have to hear it.
James <summerfallwinterspring98@juno.com>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:30:36 (BST)

need help choosing a birthing method, lawn grass, magic trick, presidential candidate, favorite guitarist (of course, it's bb), religion, lawn grass, drill bit sharpener, or plumbers' laser? http://www.selectsmart.com/ can help you choose these things and many more
lazz
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:18:32 (BST)

...but make sure you duck first.
derik
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:07:42 (BST)

Never saw Bill as a leader in the style of Moses, leading the exodus to the socialist promised land. I don't think that's the way he views himself either, though some people seem to... maybe more a John the Baptist 'voice in the wilderness' -- steve's brother alex, see if you can manage to pass on the 'John the Baptist' bit to steve while he's got a mouth full of that pudding.
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
take cover!, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 18:02:43 (BST)

Sonj, I seem to remember hearing of a team with such a nickname once. I thought they were one of the few, truly, 'world great' sides though ? Oh well... Great Weekend Everyone, Love -
S.L.H
Springfield, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 17:36:28 (BST)

slh, isn't there a team called the gunners? I don't suppose they are much cop though.
sonj <no pun intended>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 17:21:30 (BST)

TOUR DATES: Since the tour dates section of this site is far behind the times, here are a few of the upcoming USA dates: Oct. 11 and 12 - Iriving Plaza, New York Oct. 13 - TLA, Philadelphia. These shows are on sale now at ticketmasser
Robert
USA - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 16:34:46 (BST)

Dyl, how about: Shrimpers (SOUTHEND), Quakers (DARLINGTON), Millers (ROTHERHAM), Saddlers (WALSALL), Spireites (CHESTERFIELD), Hornets (WATFORD), Bees (BRENTFORD or BARNET), Potters (STOKE), Posh (PETERBOROUGH), Imps (LINCOLN), Stags (MANSFIELD), Bluebirds (CARDIFF), Canaries (NORWICH), Blades (SHEFF UTD) and The Irons (WEST HAM). Sonj, Saints (SOUTHAMPTON).
Santa's Little Helper
Springfield, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 16:34:45 (BST)

don't forget the saints
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 16:15:40 (BST)

I'm off home now so you'll have to wait until I'm next near a pc for the answers.
Dyl
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 16:04:47 (BST)

Ok, footie nickname trivia quiz to liven up a dull Friday. Which clubs have the following nicknames: Shrimpers, Quakers, Millers, Saddlers, Spireites, Hornets, Bees, Potters, Posh, Imps, Stags, Bluebirds, Canaries, Blades and The Irons?
Dyl
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 16:04:03 (BST)

Nothing wrong with "cottaging", and all you Fulham supporters will be pleased that your activities may soon be legal in the UK -- http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4044601,00.html
Boguespierre
USA - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:32:03 (BST)

No it wasn't Kev ! What's wrong with being nicknamed 'Cottagers' ?
Johnny Haynes
Craven Cottage, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:24:55 (BST)

Dyl, what a top response mate !
Kevin Wilson
Sixfields, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:21:45 (BST)

The Minstral Show in Phil is finally over! All of that patronizing to minorities, reminds me of people at parties who would tell everyone of their "black friends" How wonderful.
James <summerfallwinterspring98>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:16:06 (BST)

Quaking in San Francisco, geddit? GEDDIT? Carol you're too good for this guestbook!
groan
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:08:02 (BST)

Somehow part of my message to Alex was erased. It was supposed to read, "Listening to a snippet of Bush's speech last night, he said that the only thing Gore had to offer was fear itself."
Carol
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:07:15 (BST)

Hi Alex, Steve's brother. Welcome. Are you trying to elevate the quality of our site? Listening to a the only thing Gore has to offer is fear itself. I greatly fear certain things like massive tax cuts (because the last time that happened there were massive lay-offs across the US). So, Alex, how should I psychologicly prepare for the coming recession brought about by what I expect to be Bush's election? And give Steve a hug for me.
Carol
Quaking in San Francisco, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:05:51 (BST)

Actually I think my favorite billy album is No pop no style. Is that still available? Must email woodydee i guess... For those of you interested in the less than friendly conditions for protesters in Philadelphia prisons... http://www.phillyimc.org/article.pl?sid=00/08/04/0556235&mode=thread p.s. not in a car for me. it can't be comfortable.
derik <dbadman@astro.temple.edu>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:03:25 (BST)

It never ceases to amaze me how people find our nickname amusing. We're called the Cobblers because we're a shoe making town. There are plenty of worse nicknames - poor old Fulham!
Dyl
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 15:00:50 (BST)

Dyl, you sure that ain't Cobblers !
Len Shackleton
Roker, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 14:25:41 (BST)

Steve, does that mean you assume you know the answer?
Barbara
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 14:09:15 (BST)

Pointless fact for Arsenal fans and stattos alike. Herbert Chapman played for Northampton Town in the early part of the 20th century, and his first managerial position was with NTFC, winning the Southern League title
Dyl
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 13:28:45 (BST)

Alex, I wouldn't go mentioning 'Moses' in front of your brother if I were you. That bowl of pease pudding will be no good to Sonj & Alberr if it's poured all over your head!
Herbert Chapman
Highbury, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 11:55:26 (BST)

welcome alex, don't eat all that pease pudding before we get there. I'll bring a nice piece of baked ham to go with it.
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 11:43:14 (BST)

Hi, Alex, Steves brother here, I'm over here in Brisbane for a week for a visit. I'm dropping into the Billy Bragg site as a new poster. Very interesting site, I'm not really a political person more psychological (my profession), but its all very stimulating stuff. It occurs to me that BB is very much a mosaic (from Moses) personality (as described by Freud, a person who comes from the people, who expresses the values and opinions of the people) as opposed to a totemic (from Totem) leader, isolated, an icon who demands belief, unquestioned loyalty and following. I'm trying to start a debate with Steve about this but he's making a bowl of pease pudding for Sonja and Alberr when they arrive....(:) I'll be joining the site from the UK soon, yees its a bit late but I'm a technophobe. though to say hello. Great web site Alex
Alex, Steves brother
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 11:27:07 (BST)

but what about chris jordan??
sonj
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 11:11:24 (BST)

Hello all! Can anyone help? Where might I acquire a copy of the PEEL SESSIONS CD & (or) NO POP, NO STYLE..etc? Can't find them anywhere! Cheers!
bryan
edinburgh, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 10:32:47 (BST)

Yes Christopher Craig is still alive and lives near Bedford.
Dyl
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 10:27:42 (BST)

Dear Billy, In response to your comments about 'the yoof of today' disovering you, I wanted to share tat despite the fact that I was scrabbling around adventure playgrounds and finding porn in the ppark during the 80's ( I'm 21 now), it has been such a pleasure to be introduced to you via a musician friend of mine. You are a great and positive role model and I wanted to say Ta for the enormous contribution your music makes to both my awareness and my emotions. All y good wishes to you and your family. Keep up the fight - I was at your last Edinburgh gig, where you talked about pushing Labour as far as it can go, instead of bitching and moaning about what they are not doing. My sentiments exactly my friend. Yours, Erica (Edin)
Erica Sosna <doobygirl@excite.com>
Edinburgh, Scotland - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 09:49:35 (BST)

Some great selections. I feel the Peel Sessions produced some great versions of Bragg songs - although Trunk Road to the Sea is a fave. A Pict Song and Brickbat are also pretty special, while I could listen to The Only One all day. Steve, I recall (from a while back - I'm still working on the thesis) you said you were the descendant of a major player in the '45 Jacobite Rebellion. Was it Duncan Forbes, Lord President, Resident of Culloden House?
chris <teachers@tmc.qld.edu.au>
north tamborine, Australia - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 09:01:13 (BST)

Actually William Bloke is my favorite BB album...some of his best songwriting (favorite cut is that song about the Space Race). The Peel Sessions CD is pretty good, and then Talking with the Taxman....
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 02:27:26 (BST)

Bogues can you send me your e-mail number
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 01:02:23 (BST)

Try a Beetle, nightmare
Steve
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 00:08:23 (BST)

Matt..William Bloke..for Northern Industrial Town, but dont ask Carstens opinion.opps..(:)
Steve <misinformed and stupid>
- Friday, August 04, 2000 at 00:07:01 (BST)

But Luther, you said you'd never forget me!
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
anyway I've had much better!!, **grin** - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 00:04:47 (BST)

Bogues: nearly - but the bus-conductor stopped us
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 00:04:34 (BST)

Barbara..you posted to me.."Steve, excuse me for my knee jerk reaction to your typically stupid and uninformed post. My personal dislike for you has nothing to do with argument and I apologise"....If you dislike me Barbara then thats your perogative, but please, enjoy your hatred which dwells inside of you, not me, however it's completely irrelevant to my question which was why did the strike fail...please don't bother answering its pretty obvious and don't assume people are misinformed and stupid, it tends to make an ass out of you
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
brisbane/sunderland, - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 00:03:01 (BST)

Sonj - The Internationale has two of my favs as well -Jeruasalem and My Youngest Son Came Home Today
Brian
London, UK - Friday, August 04, 2000 at 00:01:40 (BST)

Kim, if i remember the sentencing had implications for your family?
sonja <braggpuss@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:53:55 (BST)

and you need Willaim Bloke for Brickbat.
sonj
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:52:26 (BST)

I am a fan of the international myself, but then i am a boogie woogie commie girl after all.
sonj
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:51:10 (BST)

further to Bogues "Tank Park Salute" confession my hanky-moment would have to be The Man In The Iron Mask - did anyone ever hear Paul Youngs version of this - I think I heard it when it first came out but cant actually rememeber if it was any good
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:44:59 (BST)

interestingly - no-one recommends William Bloke (nor the internationale) - personally - Victim of Geography is my fav. - although The Peel Session deserves a mention
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:41:20 (BST)

KIM: cheers - my heart goes out to you!
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:37:02 (BST)

For the record, since I am frequently misinterpreted here: My message to Jon (below) was a friendly tease. I have no idea how old he was when he lost his virginity.
Darth Luther
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:35:56 (BST)

But since you never got laid until you were 27, Jon... *grin* (big green Chevrolet station wagon, age 17)
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:16:14 (BST)

Nope, didn't have a car til I was 25.
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 23:03:36 (BST)

Hence BB's prescient emphasis on the *stationary* features of the Vauxhall Velox ("She said 'Do these seats fold down?', I said 'If you pull that handle'....."). Hands up everyone else who (how can I put this delicately?) transitioned into adulthood in an automobile? Bloody uncomfortable Austin Allegro in my case...
Boguespierre
USA - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 22:16:50 (BST)

The average American spends approximately $7,000 a year to buy and drive an automobile. ... The Union of Concerned Scientists estimates that the life-cycle impact of cars and light trucks accounts for nearly half of all toxic air pollutants, as well as just over one-quarter of greenhouse-gas emissions and more than one-fifth of all water pollution, associated with the average household. Ozone, a primary component of smog, is a byproduct of motor-vehicle pollutants, and builds up in the lower atmosphere, causing serious health problems, especially among the rising number of people with asthma and other respiratory disorders. Cars are also the leading cause of death among 6- to 27-year-olds. More than 40,000 people die each year as a result of automobile accidents. Auto accidents cost taxpayers over $11 billion in publicly funded health-care expenses, reduced income-tax revenues, and increased public assistance according to the lowest data available from the Department of Transportation.
lazz <http://www.consumerreports.org/Special/Samples/Reports/0004cart0.htm>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 22:03:14 (BST)

recommendations for matt - 'Victim of Geography' as also suggested by a few other people... it's about 1/2 way between the 'Back to Basics' era and 'Don't try this at home' in terms of production and has plenty of good songs... 'DTTAH' Also has some strong numbers, 'trust' is one of Bills best IMHO, though I'm not keen on the [over]production of this record. also if you haven't heard bill live recently the 'Mermaid tour official bootleg' will give you an idea what bill sounds like live these days with his band 'the blokes'... some tracks from both vols of MA, some very different from the MA versions.
Jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 21:51:31 (BST)

Derik -- I just saw the new Talbot's catalogue. Apparently I can get a pink skirt suit with pink pumps, AND a pink pearl necklace, bracelet, and earrings to match. Woo-hooo!!! However, I get the feeling that the general effect of this outfit would be similar to those action films in which the hero beats up a soldier or a guard, steals his uniform, and sneaks in somewhere, whereupon the hero fools the bad guys for about ten seconds when a clever bad guy notices the disguise and yells "HEY!" and everyone starts running. Doncha think?
Kim <fashionvictim@themall>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 21:37:44 (BST)

Brian -- I fit into the picture because the bank teller was my brother. Fenster -- I don't know about other states, but in Indiana, if you are involved in a crime IN ANY WAY (simply driving a getaway car, for example) during which someone is killed, you are also considered responsible for the death. That's why this guy was indicted on **two** counts of murder, not just one. I was unaware of this law. The habitual offender paragraph was unclear, but it just means that the number of felonies for which he has been imprisoned before is going to be used to decide the length of his sentence this time.
Kim <grrrlkim@community.hipmama.com>
USA - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 21:30:03 (BST)

Most Bragg fans seem to concur that Workers Playtime and Taxman come first, so the Victim of Geography is a good bet. Though some folks are of the old school and prefer Life's A Riot (or the Back to Basics compilation).
Fenster
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 21:21:52 (BST)

"Calling" or "chorus" -- same thing. Thanks for the public humiliation. J/K
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 21:18:28 (BST)

Matt - Well I'd suggest you go for "Don't Try This At Home" since it's so much different from the rest of BB's stuff, inasmuch as it's much more fully produced. And many of the tracks are great for an in-car singalong... (though 'Tank Park Salute' makes me teary).
Boguespierre <The Singing Maniac on Route 128>
USA - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 21:13:55 (BST)

i'd go for workers playtime next...
keri
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 20:37:56 (BST)

Carsten: That recommendation did sound rather lame, didn't it. I meant it was a good one to pick up next.
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 20:31:10 (BST)

Boguespierre, thanks for the info.
dan
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 20:29:43 (BST)

Derik, Talking WITH the taxman is a brilliant album! (well except for maybe Train Train). Matt better still, try to get "Victim of Geography" as it's a 2 in 1 deal: Talking with the Taxman plus Workers Playtime (but sadly without Train Train...)
Carsten
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 20:20:57 (BST)

That was Mayakovsky.. right?
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 20:13:29 (BST)

Matt: Talking to the Taxman About Poetry is a good album. Though sadly the non-vinyl versions seem to lack the Mayakovsky poem found in the record insert.... WHY!?
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:54:48 (BST)

Dan - World Cafe is at http://xpn.org/sections/worldcafe/default.shtml --- Don't know where you'll find the interview, though.
Boguespierre
USA - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:40:25 (BST)

Matt, get them all, they're all great! :)
Carsten
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:32:10 (BST)

derik.. i think you'll survive...2 shows back to back. but will i survive philly? just bring me to the bell with a big chunk of cheese....
keri
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:31:00 (BST)

Fenster, not that it matters, but the lyrics are " If killing anybody is a terrible crime// Why does this bloodthirsty chorus come round from time to time?// Let him dangle."
Carsten <don'tdoitfenster,don't doit>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:30:30 (BST)

did anyone hear Billy and Nora Guthrie on the World Cafe last weekend? The show was wonderful yet I was in my car and unable to tape it. Does anyone know how to get a copy, either audio or transcript? Who does the World Cafe anyway, it is not on the NPR website? thx
dan <drdannyboy@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:25:28 (BST)

i'd like to hear which bragg albumns you all recomend. i have the mermaid ave albumns reaching the converted and back to basics. i'm looking to exspand my collection.
matt stromberg <expatriot66@yahoo.com>
upper darby, U.S.A - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:23:56 (BST)

Back to back Billy Bragg? Can I handle that? If I can just get him to play Ontario, Quebec, and Me... He needs to take requests.
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 19:05:04 (BST)

But more importantly, did you track down the pizza?
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 18:51:23 (BST)

ok derik... it's a done deal now... we're going on the 12th.
keri
bklyn, - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 18:47:46 (BST)

"A New England" is probably the best song I´ve ever heard in my life. Wish my songwriting would be as good as Mr. Bragg´s.
Bernhard <isnogud_winnifred@hotmail.com>
Vienna, Austria - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 18:31:24 (BST)

The Bentley-Craig case was the subject of Elvis Costello's anti-capital punishment song "Let Him Dangle" off of SPIKE. "If killing anybody's such a terrible crime, why does this bloodthirsty calling come round from time to time? Let him dangle!" Along with his "Masters of War"-like invective against Margaret Thatcher ("Tramp the Dirt Down"), these are EC's most Billy-like tracks.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 18:06:30 (BST)

http://www.hippy.freeserve.co.uk/bentley.htm
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:49:37 (BST)

Derek Bentley was finally posthumously pardoned about two years ago (a trifle late...). I think that Christopher Craig who actually shot the policeman is still around (in his 60s now).
Boguespierre
Boston - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:41:30 (BST)

just to add to Dyl’s comments - although Bentley was (I think) 19 he had the mental age of someone younger (I think about 11) - I am sure someone can clarify this
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:31:56 (BST)

The classic case in the UK of transfer of responsibilty for a crime is in the case of Craig and Bentley. For our non-UK friends the story was that in the 50s, 2 teenagers broke into a warehouse. A policeman who arrive on the scene told them to give themselves up, Craig pulled a gun, the copper asked him to hand the gun over and Bentley said "Let him have it". Craig shot the policeman dead, but Bentley was hanged for the murder (Craig was under age). Bentley's defence that he was telling Craig to let the copper have the gun was not accepted and his alleged collusion with the crime was enough for state endorsed murder. Just thought I'd share as I'm a tad bored at work.
Dyl
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:26:58 (BST)

gone in search of pizza and tickets.
keri
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:13:58 (BST)

Having said that, I want to add that I've never understood the reasoning behind the transfer of responsibility. Because someone is involved with a crime doesn't mean they are responsible (IMHO) for crimes committed by others in connection to the initial crime.
Fenster
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:12:54 (BST)

The article Kim included a URL for below included this: "Bradford will decide whether Warren should be found guilty of an additional count of being a habitual felon." He's charged with being a habitual felon. That's an actual charge?! I could see him being _designated_ that (as in the 3 strikes and you're IN law, which I of course don't agree with), but charged? Any counts of being a jerk?
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:10:44 (BST)

KIM - hope you dont mind me asking - was just looking at those links of the trial and just wondered where you fit into the picture - if you dont want to answer-no worries!
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 17:07:03 (BST)

Not just one pastel pink skirt suit, Kim? Come on. It'll be fun.
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 16:50:28 (BST)

On a lighter note, Derik, I'm personally not allowed to attend any Republican conventions, since my hair isn't big and helmet-like enough. I also don't wear frosted pink lipstick and don't own any clanky gold jewelry or pastel skirt suits. Oh, and I didn't pledge Delta Gamma whilst in college. They have to have STANDARDS, you know.
Kim
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 16:42:10 (BST)

Report re: Protesters in jail in Philly: "But whatever the number is, the reports from the inside are not good. For at least ten hours there was no food, at one point the guards had suspended bathroom ^Óprivileges^Ô, the legal team representing those arrested had very little access to their clients, and many of those held were told that their lawyers were not coming to see them when in fact the real story was that the authorities were not telling the legal team who was being held where. On top of this, there are reports of police and guard violence against people in custody, and at least one woman was seen being dragged naked and bleeding. Several people have been held in isolation, including those identified as organizers, and are being given more serious charges. The medical needs of some of the arrestees are not being met, including the withholding of asthma inhalers and medication for hypoglycemia."
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 16:37:10 (BST)

{{{huge sigh of relief}}} TRIAL IS OVER!!!! Guilty on **all** counts. The death penalty was not brought up at all, so that's a ton off my mind..: www.starnews.com/news/articles/0803_TRIALB.html
KIm
USA - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 16:27:59 (BST)

interested by what you say about Clinton - do you think he was responsible for the economic upturn or would it have happened anyway?
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 15:55:58 (BST)

Brian: The Republican Convention film could be called Triumph of the Lack of Will (to think critically). Or is that the Democratic convention? I get them mixed up. However, I remember what happened after Reagan was elected in 1980. By 1982, we were in a terrible recession, and factory workers were being laid off right and left. Suddenly, my city's streets were filled with homeless people. It wasn't as if homeless people just gradually started showing up. It happened all at once. Scary. The economy improved during Clinton's time because of the new information industry. I think it had little to do with deregulation and tax reduction. I am afraid of what will happen to me and my family when Bush gets elected. I wonder if there is any space left in doorways in San Francisco. Rudy in New York will just ship me out to the Bronx if I go there. Maybe I should show up in a very Republican suburub and try out the hopsitality there. I may be joking, but I really am scared. I come from people who have nothing, and everything I have now I have earned. I really need to work (or die).
Carol
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 15:47:12 (BST)

Many Republicans wear funny hats and carry phallic white or blue balloons... Have also been known to cheer for 5 minutes at any inane statement made by someone at a podium.
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 15:23:07 (BST)

hi all - we have been getting snippets of the Republican conference over here on our news programmes - it looks like it should have been filmed by Leni Riefenstahl
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 15:12:00 (BST)

Hello , your website is impressive . I have and always will be a fan of BILLY BRAGG .
karen <holycsoli@hotmail.com>
hamilton ontario, Canada - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 14:57:38 (BST)

Those of us who have been in active in the US labor movement are very familiar with the arguments that both Steve and Lazz presented. Actually, this analysis is pure Trotskyism. Much of it is true, but so? We have struggled to make the union movement more accountable to the rank and file. And we will continue to struggle. But I know from experience that not having a union contract is worse than having one. Having a union to back up your health and safety complaints is very important. Seniority rules make the workplace fair and also protect older workers. And just plain old solidarity among your coworkers makes life bearable in the workplace. The Detroit newspaper strike was brutal. Though not quite as brutal as the Miners Strike, it was close. It was probably lost because the Gannet Corporation had more power. There have been many criticisms of the way the strike was handled from radicals--the leadership wasn't militant enough, they didn't have a mass rally on a certain day, etc. I don't think mass rallies win strikes, so that one always escaped me. Strikes always get these violent weird radical hanger-ons who disrupt the strategy that the real strikers have worked out. I think they are agent provacateurs. And then there are these armchair revolutionaries telling us what we all ready know. As far as the Teamsters go, the west coast Teamsters are not gangsters or mobsters or whatever you call it. There are many things that were wrong with the TDA (Teamsters for Democratic Action). I happen to know lots of Trotskyists, and they adored anything that was aligned with TDA and disparaged anyone who happened to support Hoffa. This is a demeaning attitude towards Teamsters. Anyway, now I am getting to specific and it is not interesting to the people from all over the country and the world. Sorry.
Carol <ctarlen@att.net>
San Francisco, - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 14:41:25 (BST)

Cheers steve, your tape arrived today and your impeccable taste in music is broadening my cultural horizons at this very moment...
warm & fuzzy pete w <Beasly Street is fucking ace :)>
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 14:36:18 (BST)

Hi.I don't want to bore ye all with the same request but just wondering if ye don't have a copy of the Dublin gig of last week, maybe ye know s.body who might ? Anybody know any Irish tape traders who might be able to help ?
Cormac <cjnev@yahoo.com>
Cork, - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 13:59:53 (BST)

Steve, excuse me for my knee jerk reaction to your typically stupid and uninformed post. My personal dislike for you has nothing to do with argument and I apologise. The description of the council of unions is wrong and actually kind of funny if you are aware of the facts. I think the article that you quoted is from a radical socialist paper (the labor lieutenants is what makes me think so) they wanted us to shoot scabs and burn down the building and called the strike a failure from the second week on. Since all they had to add to the strike was violence, we ignored them. I don't understand most of the sentences in your second post so you'll have to try again - what does "Ive been reading OTHER view points as well as journalists reports who work for the paper that refused to submit an article while the strike was on....Its not that difficult to produce a newspaper, a good writer a lap top and publisher..the difficult part is DISTRIBUTION” - mean? Nobody has said the unions are perfect, but what you quoted has really nothing to do with my strike and so as I said before, do some research and try again. Lazz, of course the movement is full of business unionists, the question is, do we sell our souls to the big corporations or do we try to take the big unions over and make them better? They have the money and the numbers. I'd love to be the one to kick John Sweeney's ass out of office and I think we'll see the day. Feudalism and vassals. Oh my God.
Barbara
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 13:57:21 (BST)

don't forget - its the Queen mothers 100th birthday tomorrow - so as a mark of respect check out - www.viz.co.uk/latest/qmum/qmumfacts.htm ps - anyone fancy going down to Buck House tomorrow to give her the bumps
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 13:51:44 (BST)

Looks like I will be seeing Mr. Bragg back to back oct 12 and 13! Bob F, Robin, anyone else in the Philly area, who wants to meet up?
derik
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 13:47:30 (BST)

sonj: will post pic soon - just gotta find a guitar to pose with
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 11:26:53 (BST)

the class thing revolves around whether you think you have right or duty to educate/patronise people you consider below you. And this is mainly a cultural thing not a political. Young men and women who go up to Romford on a saturday night to drink loads of booze, have a dance and try and pull are often sneered at by the "middle class" chin-stroking Hoxton set because what they are doing is considered plebby and of no worth.
Brian
London, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 10:44:16 (BST)

Why is it so arsing difficult to meet anyone who's a self proclaimed Billy fan today? Especially if you're only a whipper snapper like me. (22 and a frigging quarter) I wonder if there are any other fans out there anywhere near Bournemouth. Probly not. PS Anyone hear of a planned (unofficial)musical with Billy music entitled 'Oatmeal and Soapflakes?' Should be a belter. PPS anyone hear anything about Billy MIDI files? Peas and love.
Jem Roberts <jem@paragon.co.uk>
Bournemouth, UK - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 10:09:53 (BST)

To narrow down the generalisation on middle-classes and their socialist beliefs it is really an issue of the middle classes whose support for socialism is them trying to help the working classes because they reckon they need it. Pouncy bloody left-leaning university lecturers, those typified by the 'Clare in the Community' cartoon in Wednesday's Guardians, social workers who really want to help the working classes out of some form of guilt trip satiation type of thing - those kinds of gross generalisations which are unfair in the specific at times but I would see as acceptable in the broader sense. Figure it this way, if they really cared they'd sell their Land Rover, move into reasonable housing, stop sending their kids to huge-fees schools and give their money to someone who works for a living.
dk london
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 09:54:49 (BST)

To the mystery poster from mediaone.net, I hardly think we need that kind of post here, thanks.
geoffwilson@uq.net.au
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 08:14:21 (BST)

Nope, we sho doesn't get that sarcasm stuff here in Utah. Can someone please 'splain that strike stuff to ma boy, Lutha!?
Luther's Mother
Salt Lake City, Utah - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 06:34:25 (BST)

I didn't see a "reasoned reply" from Barbara. Did she send it to you via private e-mail?
Luther Gaylord
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 04:04:44 (BST)

As soon as I get paid (finally at the end of this week after 2 months of no pay), I will get tickets to the Philly show. I hope to meet some of you there!
Red Robin <rjbmuse@yahoo.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 03:32:19 (BST)

Is Billy doing any Texas dates.. ?For that matter, are there any BB fans out there E-groups listers or otherwise in or around Houston? Id love to hear from you:) Luvvvv Kerry
Kerry
- Thursday, August 03, 2000 at 01:51:56 (BST)

I was simply trying to get honest reasons why the strike failed...
Steve
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 23:17:15 (BST)

Thanks for your reasoned reply Barbara, I couldnt expect anything else really...Ive been reading OTHER view points as well as journalists reports who work for the paper that refused to submit an article while the strike was on....Its not that difficult to produce a newspaper, a good writer a lap top and publisher..the difficult part is DISTRIBUTION..and as the Teamsters backed off, the strike was doomed and it eventually failed..."Socialism exists so that (the socialist middle classes, I added this bit)middle classes can tell working classes what to think"...I couldnt agree with this statment more...By the way Barbara I would have been there fighting for the strike if I was there, I agree with its reasons Ive read some of the bastard things the company were doing so please dont assume Im anti, Im not...
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 23:16:29 (BST)

There is a very good reason the dates are not posted, they have not been finalized nor fully confirmed. I just spoke with my friend in the booking agents office and here are some further dates, Oct 10 Boston, Somerville Theater,Oct 15 Wash DC 9:30 Club. Further dates to come.
WoodyDee
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 23:03:38 (BST)

I don't very often look at other sites as we still have metered online time. However i thought i would just take a look at some unnofficial BB links. (i'm typing this offline alberr!)I thought Braggtopia was really excellent. I love those T shirt designs! Is it Canada based?? It was quite spooky to see a link to a picture of me on the rogues gallery! I chose that picture because it was a good one of my T shirt but i think i should have followed the lad's example and sent something a bit more cute! Brian, stop whinging about being left out and send geoff your picture.
sonj <past bedtime>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 23:00:51 (BST)

B-pierre...thanks..Ill keep checking.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 22:47:31 (BST)

bad sound maybe. Remember thinking it would be more suitable for an acoustic gig in a pub or something.
sonj <bedtime for greenwich meridian people.>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 22:35:58 (BST)

Jeff - try this link. I assume it will update as further dates are added --- http://209.104.33.200/cgi/artist.idc?type=merch&searchname=BILLY_BRAGG&majorcat=CONCERTS&minorcat=31
Boguespierre
Boston - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 22:12:35 (BST)

Bob Fenster ..since you seem to have an inside line on BBs US tourdates this fall, are there any in the Midwest?
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 22:00:11 (BST)

The Yeasty Girls?! Whoa..thats a blast from the past. I recall they where featured as "guest artists" on the "Freindly Facism" CD by the politico-rap group Consolidated (I don't think Consolidated ever had much if any airplay). Probably one of only two rap albums I like (the other is Kid Frosts' East Side Story).*****I recall seeing Franti and the "Disposable Heroes'" as the opener for Billy Bragg in Cincinnatti 9 years ago (?!)..for some reason I thought either he or another member of that band also was in a band called "Until December" ...played in the Bay Area/Northern Cali in the 80s.****Whatever happened to Michelle Shocked..she did a good cover of Jean Ritchies' "The L&N Dont Stop Here Anymore".
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 21:50:14 (BST)

kate rusby - http://www.purerecords.demon.co.uk - some downloadable audio samples on the Records page... not really my cup of tea, but she seems to be on the way up.
jon <joinedup@yahoo.co.uk>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 21:43:33 (BST)

sonj: she's a new one on me - did not get to see Billy last year - why not understand her - bad sound or foreign language?
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 21:23:11 (BST)

Anyone in NYC interested in seeing Michael Franti's band Spearhead (discussed here yesterday), they're playing Wetlands on August 15 and 16.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 20:47:11 (BST)

Pollstar has nothing about the North American tour -- just a 12/15 date in London at the Forum. I checked the Ticketmaster site for dates in Maryland, Massachusetts, RI, DE and DC, but no dice. Guess that means they haven't finalized details of anything else as yet.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 20:20:59 (BST)

Corrinna from the Bragg Office. Are you still there. Thanks for looking after us at Brighton. Will we see you again next time round? Did you recognise the T-shirt in the Tolpuddle photos??? I wondered if you would be there.
sonja
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 20:07:46 (BST)

Brian, Kate supported Billy on his English Tour last autumn. When we saw her at Brighton I couldn't understand the words to her songs which kind of missed the point of her performance. I will have another look in the grauniad to see what they had to say about michelle shocked. It wasn't another Brian (sorry)it was MARK B from Dalkeith who'se a michelle shocked and waterboys fan. He missed Bill's edinburgh gig because he wasn't well enough to go. (asthma). Has anybody heard from him??
sonj <braggpuss@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 20:03:37 (BST)

are there official north america tour dates? could the bragg office please add them to the "tour dates" page if there are?
lazz
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:56:58 (BST)

I can't remember the amount anymore -- it was a while ago, of course, and $60 seemed like an enormous amount of money to a 16-yr.-old. Minimum wage at the time was around $3.35, as I recall. Now, where's my cane?
Kim
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:56:17 (BST)

Carol, e-mail unblocked and i am awake.
sonj
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:52:47 (BST)

By the way, there's a note against the NYC gig on the Ticketmaster site saying "NO RECCAMBOTCANRESELL". Does that (at a guess) mean "no recording, cameras, bottles, cans or reselling"? Wot, no bootlegging the Bragg?
Bogues
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:36:56 (BST)

thanks for the gig info... i'll have to run out and buy some tickets tonight. any takers?
keri
new york, - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:34:29 (BST)

Hmmmm... this is obviously some kind of challenge. If BB is in NY on the 11th and 12th, and Philly on the 13th, we can extrapolate back to Boston around about the 9th and 10th. Now all I need to do is phone around every possible venue in Metro Boston and ask if BB is booked that week. And make sure I don't schedule any work trips away. Or can the Bragg Office make it easy-peasy for us?
Boguespierre
Boston - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:31:07 (BST)

Confused... so the purpose of the Tour Dates page here at billybragg.com is to tell us about gigs AFTER they're sold out? Or does T**y just send us all complimentaries for taking the time to post to the BBgb?
Boguespierre
Boston - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:25:29 (BST)

Oops, for those in the area -- Wednesday and Thursday, October 11-12 at 8 p.m., Irving Plaza, NYC; Friday, October 13 at 9 p.m. at the Theater of the Living Arts, Philly. Ticketmaster.com is selling tickets.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:09:10 (BST)

Ha -- that's kind of funny, I mentioned the month and location of Billy's tour and it didn't occur to me that tickets would be on sale yet. Irving Plaza in New York and TLA in Philly. I'll probably go to the latter (hopefully with our wedding photos to show one Mr. Bragg).
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 19:07:14 (BST)

hey thanks whoever it was who told me about the show. i already bought tickets. anyone else going? I discovered billy through the mermaid ave albumn and haven't gotten enough of him yet. i'm excited about the show!
matt stromberg <expatriot66@yahoo.com>
philadelphia, u.s.a - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 18:45:27 (BST)

Sonj: no joy - but crikey - someone was asking where is Micelle Shocked yesterday (or the day before) - she is in todays Guardian - apparantly she is doing a show tonight at The Jazz Cafe (tickets at a snip for only £14.50-£17.50 - hope she does a cover of Abba's Money Money Money)
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:54:40 (BST)

WARNING, THIS IS A PERSONAL MESSAGE.Sonj: Is your email still constipated? I need to discuss stuff with you and I need your phone number, etc.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:53:53 (BST)

Safeway IS unionized. And how much are those dues, anyway? My dues have never been more than $20/month, and they are pro-rated if someone is part-time.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:45:53 (BST)

got ya - sorry about the three postings - just gonna check the Guardian now
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:41:09 (BST)

Sonj... er... missed something... who? (pardon my ignorance) - better check the news files
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:38:56 (BST)

Sonj... er... missed something... who? (pardon my ignorance) - better check the news files
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:38:33 (BST)

Sonj... er... missed something... who? (pardon my ignorance) - better check the news files
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:37:56 (BST)

didn't you like what they had to say about Kate Ruseby today brian?
sonj
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:34:24 (BST)

not a big fan of the Guardian - not because of the political stance or the news sections but because of the review section - especially the music pages - there seems to be an underlying smart-arse-eness to it
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:30:10 (BST)

yeast...tampons...yoghurt? I expect you had to be there to appreciate it!
sonj
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:27:33 (BST)

I was under the impression that Safeway was unionized. I didn't take a PT cashier job at Kroger while in high school because I couldn't work enough hours during the school year to make it worthwhile after paying the union dues.
Kim
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:27:22 (BST)

Pete, you should play a tampon. It might add a new dimension to your music.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:23:24 (BST)

Jeez. If only i was female I'd be able to play the tampon at gigs...be a bit easier than this bloody guitar.... :)
pete w <hardcoretim@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:20:11 (BST)

Pete: Not only did the yeastie Girlz not play instruments (with the sole exception of their tampons) but they didn't sing--they just rapped and were very, very funny.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:17:05 (BST)

ps - isn't slagging off people who call themselves socialists as middle-class a bit of an old chestnut? I'm able count myself as lower middle class because my working class ancestors educated themselves, unashamedly called themselves socialists and worked tirelessly to improve the lot of the people in the mining communities they grew up in. I also hate the adjective "guardian-reading liberal" and all its variants. I'd raher read a mostly unbiased, slightly left-of-centre liberal broadsheet than the Socialist Worker :)
pete w <seeing shapes>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:17:00 (BST)

I think we are actually both saying the same thing - and hey! no one is obliged to like something just because it is played with passion (anyway - I quite like Radiohead) - remember- they said Sigue Sigue Sputnik couldn't play
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:16:40 (BST)

My god! no, I never meant to disparage anyone's level of musical ability!!! As the most musically illiterate and sausage-fingered of all Whitley Bay's guitar-playing pub band population, I fully support any band who can't hold down a chord or play in time, and believe them all to be infinitely superior to smooth-fingered smartarses like Radiohead. When i said that the riot-grrl music i'd heard (and I've heard precious little, living in a city which worships Jimmy Nail and not having access to mp3s) was a little crap, I meant in the sense that it just didn't make me hit the ceiling with passion and delight, in the same way that The Offspring fail to do so, and my ex favourite band EVER Idlewild who were great until they learned to play and turned into REM....*rambles incoherently*
pete w <just got signed:)>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 17:08:38 (BST)

I have always considered class to be where your at not where your from - I know people who think because they are on a good wage they can talk down to waitresses/shop staff/office cleaners/etc because they are superior and also people who have had a good education and come from a nice leafy suburb who realise that we are all equal. I do use the tag "middle class", often, but I usually mean people who think there is an intellectual/social order to things and that they are above others
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 15:50:47 (BST)

morning everyone... what's going on derik... i have a great library story for ya.
keri
work, - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 15:21:19 (BST)

I'm not sure what dk is talking about. My parents were definitely working class and they supported not only unions but the kinds of stuff that the "socialists" here support--from socialized medicine to government ownership of energy. They didn't call themselves socialist, but does that matter? And what am I? A low paid clerical worker (I was highly paid for about eight months--that was fun). I am a service worker. And I am working class. Calling people who express socialist sentiments "middle class intellectuals" is just a way to obscure and ignore their ideas and their analysis. It is not a legitimate way to discuss anything
Carol
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 15:15:48 (BST)

Leftie, pony-tailed mate of mine coughed up a ripper a few years back which has a certain resonance to it. "Socialism exists so that middle classes can tell working classes what to think". I say that as a dyed in the wool Bragg fan and would point to the fact that it is the more educated who spout socialism rather than the people who put blisters on their hands for a living. on a separate thing it would be interesting to see if the defence industry was self-supporting or if there was such a concept. To clarify: it creates jobs, produces spending power, taxes, communities, has a long supply chain, is exportable, is high technology, requires educated people (in the manufacturing areas - software engineers is one of the biggest shortages the industry faces) and so on. In a financial sense is it circular - putting in what it takes back in taxes?
dk london
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:57:42 (BST)

every musical/cultural innovator has suffered a certain amount of the "its not any good" problem - from minamilist classical, through punk, acid, techno, drum n Bass, and I am sure the next musical movement will suffer the same - and to be honest I hope that never changes - to (mis)quote someone famous "I don't care what they say about me - as long as they are talking"
brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:50:32 (BST)

Independent news from Philly: http://www.phillyimc.org
derik
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:40:04 (BST)

barbara, i agree with quite a bit of what is being said in the quote about unions engaging in "business unionism". this is one reason many "working class" americans (much less other more highly paid workers) don't support unions -- they feel they're just giving away money to another "business" and not getting anything in return. and, it is justified that they feel this way as it IS happening. unions need to provide for their members rather than making the union reps and leaders rich. if you won't believe the source steve quoted, would you believe it if Z magazine said the same thing? http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/zarticle.cfm?Url=articles/oct96bacon.htm Here are some quotes: But the most fundamental problem retarding the qualitative growth in the power and effectiveness of U.S. unions can't be cured by spending money alone, or by reorganizing the labor movement at the top. That problem is the ability of rank-and-file members to control their own unions and to determine their direction. // In the Teamsters Union, the struggle for democratic control and more progressive politics has not been a triumphal march. It's been more like a war. // In its worst periods, employers used Teamsters contracts as sweetheart protection to prevent workers from joining more militant unions, whether the CIO in the 1940s or the United Farm Workers in the 1960s. While the rest of labor functioned politically as an arm of the Democratic Party, Teamsters leaders even traded support for the most conservative Republican politicians for immediate political advantage. // And Carey has gone after the mob. In local after local, the international has moved to replace leaders accused of misusing members' dues money to line the pockets of themselves and their friends. // The union has been racked by struggles to eliminate multiple salaries for union officers and to trim excessive expenses. // I'd say there is something to the stuff posted which you referred to as "bullshit".
lazz
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:35:27 (BST)

Well protests in Philly did not remain completely civil yesterday. I haven't read too much on it yet, but I watched the news for a good hour of live footage and took a trip downtown to go to my class. My train station stop happened to be one block from the main showdown of protesters and cops. They would let me out of the station there and i had to go to an exit further away. Police were everywhere. A couple on each corner, and more inbetween the corners. Opposite where I emerged from the station stood a group of perhaps 20 cops in helmets, batons at the ready. Never have I seen so many cops milling about in Philly. While in class a small group of protesters marched by chanting followed by motorcycle cops... On my way home later I walked up one of the streets where marchin had occurred, and saw spraypainted anarchy signs and meaningless slogans like "Smash It Up!". I am all for what these people are protesting for, but dirtying up the city is probably not the best way to get their message out. According to varying reports from 240-400 people were arrested, including 70 people how were forced out of a warehouse, wherein they were constructing puppets. Police apparently had infiltrated the group (after publicly stating they had not infiltrated any groups) and said they thought there were dangerous items inside, later changing the story to that there pumps and chains for creating lockboxes inside... Wondering if any of my friends were in there, too...
derik <dbadman@astro.temple.edu>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:34:13 (BST)

Jeff--here in San Francisco there was a strike at Safeway (a major grocery chain) that the workers won. The public refused to cross the picket lines. The unionized grocery clerks make much more money than the nonunion ones, and they have medical beneifts and retirement plans. I am unsure why those grofery strikers were fired. This is illegal, I think. Also, union membership is again growing after about 20 years of decline. The article you quoted from, Steve, sounds like some kind Trotskiest nightmare. Finally, Jeff, you know I like and respect you. Your choice for President is quite troubling to me, and so are your anti-union sentiments.
Carol
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:20:36 (BST)

From Powells orgnaizers: We are thrilled to announce that ILWU Local 5 settled a tentative agreement for a first contract with Powells Books today. Powells Books is the largest independent bookstore in the country, with 420 workers; in Portland it is a highly respected community institution. The settlement includes union security, significant raises and a satisfactory agreement on health care, the three major sticking points in negotiations. The ratification vote will take place next week.
Barbara <lastoneforthedayigotomyevilfuckingjobthatididnotloseitookbackfromthebastards>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:19:58 (BST)

Kim, I read your link and I'm so sorry. I hope the trial goes swiftly and you can get about the process of healing. Keep us informed.
Barbara
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:15:57 (BST)

Pete w...yes, it's undeniably true that a lot of riot grrrl musicians can't play their instruments very well. That said, let's remember that it's PUNK music, therefore being supremely talented isn't the point, and there have been more than a few male punk bands over the years who, shall we say, fell rather short of the mark in musicianship.
Kim <toooldforjimmyp@ge>
usa - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:13:29 (BST)

Jared: the voting system is a form of Manufactured Consent - society chooses the options, makes sure that they are acceptable and do not upset the apple-cart too much and then tells us it is democracy - Not saying don't vote - just remember that whoever you vote for, the government get in
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:08:38 (BST)

Steve, just what did you fucking read?
Barbara <firstthinginthemorningbeforecoffeeihearthisshit>
firstthefacistconvention, nowthisimgoingbacktobed - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 14:00:05 (BST)

By the way Bill if you read this, employees and management at Powells City of Books signed their contract with the ILWU yesterday. Solidarity!
Barbara
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 13:56:49 (BST)

Steve, that's the biggest piece of bullshit I have ever read, and untrue from beginning to end. Do a little more research. Jeff, don't make apologies for wanting defense spending over education. Poor people are only going to try and take your money through welfare and food programs anyway. They'll just go to Texas and be executed, so why educate them?
Barbara <scaryscaryscary>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 13:54:01 (BST)

Do the Yeastie Girlz' activities with tampons bear any relation to the L7 tampon incident? I like the whole riot grrrl image but i can't help thinking that of the music I've heard, most of it was a little, well, crap :)
pete w <just not on pay=per-view>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 13:47:46 (BST)

Message for Pete -- only you or Chris A. can turn off moderator status; we can't do it, nor can we unsubscribe a moderator. I thought I turned off your messages to "web only," but I don't know what went wrong. If you can't get to the web site, please ignore the messages and accept our apologies for the inconvenience.
Fenster <bobfenster@juno.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 13:33:39 (BST)

The fortunes wasted as "defence spending" by the developed world are imo essentially mass murder of innocent people in underdeveloped countries of the so called Third World (a simple but not very popular truth). As for George W. Bush, being anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment is not so bad? Pretty close to fascism in my books.
Carsten
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 12:18:06 (BST)

Ive just read an article on the Detroit strike and this is part of it, I make no apologies for its length, so wrap up Jon..(:)..."All the major unions have retreated into "business unionism." The union bureaucracies run the unions like companies, providing members with collective bargaining, grievance representation, and other "services" -- now even credit cards and special deals with HMOs -- in return for a fee. The top union officials are very much "labor lieutenants of capital," to use American labor and socialist leader Daniel DeLeon's apt phrase from the turn of the last century. They are "of capital" in the sense that they regard capitalism -- private property in the means of production, the market economy, and the bosses' laws -- as sacrosanct. They are "lieutenants" in the sense that they ultimately serve the employers by helping to contain the class struggle. But they are "labor" lieutenants in that their service and livelihoods are based on their position as union leaders. They must preserve the unions and balance between the workers and the employers in order to be of service to the employers and live like lawyers. In the Detroit newspaper strike, the Metropolitan Council of Newspaper Unions leaders collapsed as soon as a judge issued an injunction against mass picketing at the North Plant. They regarded their treasuries and their liberty to spend them as more important than winning the strike, although in the long run losing the strike may cost them far more than defying the injunction would have. Their superiors in the Teamsters, the Communication Workers of America (CWA), and AFL-CIO did not override them partly for the same reasons and partly because they live by the rules of bureaucratic "protocol." Relations within the union bureaucracy are like feudalism: The vassals give fealty, the lords give protection, and each more or less respects the others' domains.....REMINDS ME OF THE RAGGED TROUSERED PHILANTHROPIST
Steve
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 12:07:38 (BST)

Jeff you have a point about unions in decline...this has been happening for at least 20 years in England....Ive just read a document on the Detroit Newspaper Strike, I knew little the strike previously but the report says the strike failed..why did it fail?..and Im not trying to be smart here..just interested
Steve <johnquays@bigpond.com>
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 11:57:48 (BST)

and another thing (laughs) - Billy is on the radio tonight - Radio2 has highlights of Cambridge Folk Festival at 7pm
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 10:51:06 (BST)

With Spearhead - I suspect that there it is a case of The Emperers New Clothes going on here - well on I wanna be the little boy who stands up and says "hold on - this band is really dull" - I also have his "dancing" to The Great Leap Forward on video - hardly Pans People is it
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 10:46:03 (BST)

re: Michael Franti/beatnigs/disposable Television: Drug of the Nation - while I do actually like this song I do get pissed off when people bleat on about this medium as if it is some lower form of art or entertainment - nobody sits around banging on about the printed word - yet the largest read periodical in the UK is the The SUN newspaper (followed closely by The Mirror, Star, Express, etc)
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 10:40:48 (BST)

STEVE: I was sub-verting the old rallying call of Agitate, Educate, Organise - and yes there is discussion - but isn't totally sad that the only time I have any substantial responses is when I claim that this board is occupied by a clique - and an other thing - there is a tiny bit of humour when I post these hissy-fits - I am not really sitting in front of the computer, late at night, in my underpants, taking swigs from a bottle of scotch and going over old postings in the Guest book (I'm a vodka drinker)
Brian
London, UK - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 10:27:32 (BST)

spot on jon about the tax on consumables. It is part of the con phony tony is trying to get away with, to fulfil his election promise to the middle classes not to raise income tax! (where did they think the money was coming from to get better schools etc?) Living out in the sticks ( twice weekly buses )and driving a several previous owners car i am getting close to spending 25 percent of my income on getting to work! The road hauliers are squirming about their profits but even if i get the free bus to Tesco's i will be paying indirectly when i get to the checkout as the increased cost of fuel just gets passed on to the shopper. The lower the income the higher the proportion of it goes into basics.
sonj <addicted pops of the world unite>
best sentence construction i can manage this time of the morning, - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 08:07:11 (BST)

good grief lazz. How do you remember where you live!
sonj
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 07:12:18 (BST)

sonj and alberr, i got the postcard today! thank you very much (sonj, the last line was my postal index (zip code) so it was good that you included it)
lazz
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 04:50:42 (BST)

jeff, i didn't say that defense spending doesn't do any economic good. what i said is that government spending in other sectors does MORE good than government spending on defense does.
lazz
- Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 04:46:22 (BST)

As a closing remark, although in real life I vote pretty conservative I do enjoy manifestations of left wing culture...movies like Reds and Matewan are great and the music is excellent (as demonstrated by Ewan MacColl, Dick Gaughan, Billy Bragg and others). The history and politics of the left are quite entertaining as well, plenty of high drama and idealism. I do respect the idealism and humanism of the left, even if at heart I think its'not very realistic.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 04:40:54 (BST)

lazz, defense spending is great for long and short term economic interests here in Dayton. Defense spending (both payroll, procurement, and contracts) is a major driver of the local economy; quite a few jobs that have nothing to do with defense have been generated by all those $$$ flowing into the regional economy.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 04:30:39 (BST)

Carol, thanks for that info on the Texas education reform choronology. Also, do you think these service unions are going to really raise these peoples' wages? Or will they just be taking the union dues? The big service union strike I recall in Ohio was against the grocery chain Meijer. The union lost and the strikers (who where not being paid much to begin with) lost their jobs. Not much to show for their union dues, huh? Almost all people I know don't think much of unions.
Jeff <dwellej@aol.com>
Dayton, OH, USA - Wednesday, August 02, 2000 at 04:25:18 (BST)

Thanx alot Boguespierre. Have a Nice Evening! <