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Toby
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Nov 7 2006, 01:17 PM) *
Black cloud - you know I agree with you and support you but did we really need a whole new thread about one article in the Torygraph?
Could this not just have gone in the ID cards thread?


And so it came to pass.
Sarah lady
I've said it before but I'll say it again.
I love you Toby!
nevski
and lo, there was much rejoicing.
Black Cloud
To continue on the Biblical theme.

If we get ID Cards then: Fire and brimstone shalt rain from the skies and nameless abominations shalt crawl from the seas and there will be a great weeping and wailing through all the lands.

If we're lucky. biggrin.gif
Mick H
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Nov 13 2006, 12:22 PM) *

To continue on the Biblical theme.

If we get ID Cards then: Fire and brimstone shalt rain from the skies and nameless abominations shalt crawl from the seas and there will be a great weeping and wailing through all the lands.

If we're lucky. biggrin.gif


And so it came to pass that civil liberties continued and people still lived in a democracy after all and verily it ended upeth costing far more than 30 pieces of silver
Black Cloud
According to Charles Clarke ID C ards will save us from 'Big Brother'.huh.gif
Red Star
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Nov 27 2006, 03:35 PM) *

According to Charles Clarke ID C ards will save us from 'Big Brother'.huh.gif


Wouldn't it be easier to just not watch Channel 4 whilst Big Brother is on ??

Anyway even without ID Cards Big Bother is watxhing you on CCTV, knows where you used your credit/debit card & can track your mobile phone. 1984 has already arrived.
Black Cloud
QUOTE(Red Star @ Nov 28 2006, 05:15 PM) *

QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Nov 27 2006, 03:35 PM) *

According to Charles Clarke ID C ards will save us from 'Big Brother'.huh.gif


Wouldn't it be easier to just not watch Channel 4 whilst Big Brother is on ??

Anyway even without ID Cards Big Bother is watxhing you on CCTV, knows where you used your credit/debit card & can track your mobile phone. 1984 has already arrived.


I rarely use credit/debit cards and sometimes I leave my mobile at home, or worse, I take it to places where there is no signal.

Obviously I'm up to no good.
Red Star
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Nov 29 2006, 01:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Red Star @ Nov 28 2006, 05:15 PM) *

QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Nov 27 2006, 03:35 PM) *

According to Charles Clarke ID C ards will save us from 'Big Brother'.huh.gif


Wouldn't it be easier to just not watch Channel 4 whilst Big Brother is on ??

Anyway even without ID Cards Big Bother is watxhing you on CCTV, knows where you used your credit/debit card & can track your mobile phone. 1984 has already arrived.


I rarely use credit/debit cards and sometimes I leave my mobile at home, or worse, I take it to places where there is no signal.

Obviously I'm up to no good.


AND you post on this subversive sorum. THEY will be watching you !!
Black Cloud
Acording to Radio 4's You and Yours, interviews for first time passport aplicants are to start. Albeit on a limited scale and only in certain parts of the country, initially.

Now we'll get an idea of what 'enrolling' for an ID Card will be like since you will have to turn up personally for interview, mugshot and fingerprinting to get one. Or forgo having a passport. sad.gif

Black Cloud.
Martyn
QUOTE
"What no one seemed to notice was the ever widening gap between the government and the people. And it became always wider.....the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting, it provided an excuse not to think....for people who did not want to think anyway gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about.....and kept us so busy with continuous changes and 'crises' and so fascinated.....by the machinations of the 'national enemies,' without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us.....

"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'.....must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing.....Each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next.

"You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even talk, alone.....you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes.

"That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.

"You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father.....could never have imagined."

Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1938-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)
Leontien
On a positive note: 26000 illegal aliens in Holland who've lived here for 6 years or longer will be getting their passports soon.
Black Cloud
Our Glorious Leader now says that the fingerprint data on the National Identity Register is to be used by the Police in an attempt to solve nearly a million un-solved crimes.

So just remember folks when you sign up to be a crime suspect, MAKE SURE YOUR ALIBI IS IN ORDER. ph34r.gif

Black Cloud
barmyrob
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs...2049786,00.html

Big Brother IS watching you.

This government has gone mad.
Sarah lady
Not just watching but shouting at us - now just how irritating is that going to be if you live near one of these bloody things?!
barmyrob
Well I'm sure I'm one of millions who will quite happily flip the bird to any tosser that shouts at me.

It makes you want to go out and be anti-social.
Black Cloud
Blair and Reid now want to give the Police 'War Time' powers to randomly stop and interogate anyone as to their movements and identity. ohmy.gif
Saves having to make ID Cards compulsory I suppose. mad.gif
Andy Larter
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ May 27 2007, 11:53 AM) *

Blair and Reid now want to give the Police 'War Time' powers to randomly stop and interogate anyone as to their movements and identity. ohmy.gif
Saves having to make ID Cards compulsory I suppose. mad.gif

Bless 'em. They think it will win back some floating voters.
Black Cloud
Now they are going to be a 'National Institution', but who wants to live in an institution?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6767083.stm
Martyn
I wouldn't trust these fuckers with my Sainsbury's To You data.

But these freaks want to hold ALL your personal details on a biometric card and they PROMISE it will only be looked at by authorised persons. Like, as I seem to recall, post office staff, your leccy provider, firefighters and these new neighbourhood quasi police (but not actually police) officers they've got lined up.

What the fuck was the data doing in the US? Why does it even need to leave bastard Swansea FFS?

Me? Seething with apoplectic rage over a bunch of power crazed war mongering pompous halfwits like Ruth Kelly?

Too bloddy right.

QUOTE
Susan Kramer, for the Liberal Democrats described the further loss of data from another government department as "mind-bending".

She said: "Perhaps the answer is we should be holding less data on people or it should automatically be destroyed.

"I still can't get to the bottom of how old some of this data was on people who'd applied for drivers' licences.

"This constant attempt to gather data, to get more data, to know more about you, to link it more together, all of that it seems to me is what comes into question."


Couldn't have put it better myself.

Once again I return to the questions I keep asking over and over again and to which I've still not had or heard or seen any answers.

WHY do we need biometric ID cards in the UK and WHAT are they for??
Jon
QUOTE(Martyn @ Dec 18 2007, 05:48 AM) *

Once again I return to the questions I keep asking over and over again and to which I've still not had or heard or seen any answers.

WHY do we need biometric ID cards in the UK and WHAT are they for??

Losing?
Martyn
The next step...

Prisoners 'to be chipped like dogs'
Hi-tech 'satellite' tagging planned in order to create more space in jails
Civil rights groups and probation officers furious at 'degrading' scheme
By Brian Brady, Whitehall Editor, The Independent, Published: 13 January 2008
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3333852.ece

[/quote]
Ministers are planning to implant "machine-readable" microchips under the skin of thousands of offenders as part of an expansion of the electronic tagging scheme that would create more space in British jails.

Amid concerns about the security of existing tagging systems and prison overcrowding, the Ministry of Justice is investigating the use of satellite and radio-wave technology to monitor criminals.

But, instead of being contained in bracelets worn around the ankle, the tiny chips would be surgically inserted under the skin of offenders in the community, to help enforce home curfews. The radio frequency identification (RFID) tags, as long as two grains of rice, are able to carry scanable personal information about individuals, including their identities, address and offending record.

The tags, labelled "spychips" by privacy campaigners, are already used around the world to keep track of dogs, cats, cattle and airport luggage, but there is no record of the technology being used to monitor offenders in the community. The chips are also being considered as a method of helping to keep order within prisons.

A senior Ministry of Justice official last night confirmed that the department hoped to go even further, by extending the geographical range of the internal chips through a link-up with satellite-tracking similar to the system used to trace stolen vehicles. "All the options are on the table, and this is one we would like to pursue," the source added.

The move is in line with a proposal from Ken Jones, the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), that electronic chips should be surgically implanted into convicted paedophiles and sex offenders in order to track them more easily. Global Positioning System (GPS) technology is seen as the favoured method of monitoring such offenders to prevent them going near "forbidden" zones such as primary schools.

"We have wanted to take advantage of this technology for several years, because it seems a sensible solution to the problems we are facing in this area," a senior minister said last night. "We have looked at it and gone back to it and worried about the practicalities and the ethics, but when you look at the challenges facing the criminal justice system, it's time has come."

The Government has been forced to review sentencing policy amid serious overcrowding in the nation's jails, after the prison population soared from 60,000 in 1997 to 80,000 today. The crisis meant the number of prisoners held in police cells rose 13-fold last year, with police stations housing offenders more than 60,000 times in 2007, up from 4,617 the previous year. The UK has the highest prison population per capita in western Europe, and the Government is planning for an extra 20,000 places at a cost of £3.8bn - including three gigantic new "superjails" - in the next six years.

More than 17,000 individuals, including criminals and suspects released on bail, are subject to electronic monitoring at any one time, under curfews requiring them to stay at home up to 12 hours a day. But official figures reveal that almost 2,000 offenders a year escape monitoring by tampering with ankle tags or tearing them off. Curfew breaches rose from 11,435 in 2005 to 43,843 in 2006 - up 283 per cent. The monitoring system, which relies on mobile-phone technology, can fail if the network crashes.

A multimillion-pound pilot of satellite monitoring of offenders was shelved last year after a report revealed many criminals simply ditched the ankle tag and separate portable tracking unit issued to them. The "prison without bars" project also failed to track offenders when they were in the shadow of tall buildings.

The Independent on Sunday has now established that ministers have been assessing the merits of cutting-edge technology that would make it virtually impossible for individuals to remove their electronic tags.

The tags, injected into the back of the arm with a hypodermic needle, consist of a toughened glass capsule holding a computer chip, a copper antenna and a "capacitor" that transmits data stored on the chip when prompted by an electromagnetic reader.

But details of the dramatic option for tightening controls over Britain's criminals provoked an angry response from probation officers and civil-rights groups. Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: "If the Home Office doesn't understand why implanting a chip in someone is worse than an ankle bracelet, they don't need a human-rights lawyer; they need a common-sense bypass.

"Degrading offenders in this way will do nothing for their rehabilitation and nothing for our safety, as some will inevitably find a way round this new technology."

Harry Fletcher, assistant general secretary of the National Association of Probation Officers, said the proposal would not make his members' lives easier and would degrade their clients. He added: "I have heard about this suggestion, but we feel the system works well enough as it is. Knowing where offenders like paedophiles are does not mean you know what they are doing.

"This is the sort of daft idea that comes up from the department every now and then, but tagging people in the same way we tag our pets cannot be the way ahead. Treating people like pieces of meat does not seem to represent an improvement in the system to me."

The US market leader VeriChip Corp, whose parent company has been selling radio tags for animals for more than a decade, has sold 7,000 RFID microchips worldwide, of which about 2,000 have been implanted in humans. The company claims its VeriChips are used in more than 5,000 installations, crossing healthcare, security, government and industrial markets, but they have also been used to verify VIP membership in nightclubs, automatically gaining the carrier entry - and deducting the price of their drinks from a pre-paid account.

The possible value of the technology to the UK's justice system was first highlighted 18 months ago, when Acpo's Mr Jones suggested the chips could be implanted into sex offenders. The implants would be tracked by satellite, enabling authorities to set up "zones", including schools, playgrounds and former victims' homes, from which individuals would be barred.

"If we are prepared to track cars, why don't we track people?" Mr Jones said. "You could put surgical chips into those of the most dangerous sex offenders who are willing to be controlled."

The case for: 'We track cars, so why not people?'

The Government is struggling to keep track of thousands of offenders in the community and is troubled by an overcrowded prison system close to bursting. Internal tagging offers a solution that could impose curfews more effectively than at present, and extend the system by keeping sex offenders out of "forbidden areas". "If we are prepared to track cars, why don't we track people?" said Ken Jones, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo).

Officials argue that the internal tags enable the authorities to enforce thousands of court orders by ensuring offenders remain within their own walls during curfew hours - and allow the immediate verification of ID details when challenged.

The internal tags also have a use in maintaining order within prisons. In the United States, they are used to track the movement of gang members within jails.

Offenders themselves would prefer a tag they can forget about, instead of the bulky kit carried around on the ankle.

The case against: 'The rest of us could be next'

Professionals in the criminal justice system maintain that the present system is 95 per cent effective. Radio frequency identification (RFID) technology is unproven. The technology is actually more invasive, and carries more information about the host. The devices have been dubbed "spychips" by critics who warn that they would transmit data about the movements of other people without their knowledge.

Consumer privacy expert Liz McIntyre said a colleague had already proved he could "clone" a chip. "He can bump into a chipped person and siphon the chip's unique signal in a matter of seconds," she said.

One company plans deeper implants that could vibrate, electroshock the implantee, broadcast a message, or serve as a microphone to transmit conversations. "Some folks might foolishly discount all of these downsides and futuristic nightmares since the tagging is proposed for criminals like rapists and murderers," Ms McIntyre said. "The rest of us could be next."

Source for this message:
The Independent, Published: 13 January 2008
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3333852.ece

How many years will elapse before the UK Government decides that all children must be chipped at birth?

Won't happen?

People said that prisoners would never be chipped like animals. To suggest such a thing would be ridiculous.
And I can already think of half a dozen really good reasons why chipping children in the hospital minutes after birth would be a good idea. I really can.

Would I support a move to do this.?

Rhetorical question, of course. rolleyes.gif
Black Cloud
Martyn
This particular 'Electronic Prison' seems to be short of doors.
Firstly these chips are fairly easy to copy and, secondly, they are even easier to shield to prevent them being read.
So you copy your chip and shield the one in your arm and then leave the copy in the house whilst you go for walkabout.
Martyn
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Jan 17 2008, 01:50 PM) *

Martyn
This particular 'Electronic Prison' seems to be short of doors.
Firstly these chips are fairly easy to copy and, secondly, they are even easier to shield to prevent them being read.
So you copy your chip and shield the one in your arm and then leave the copy in the house whilst you go for walkabout.


Which would be fine and dandy so long as this...

QUOTE
One company plans deeper implants that could vibrate, electroshock the implantee,


...doesn't happen.

How long before someone thinks it might be a good idea to have criminals, especially subversives who don't subscribe to your (the establishment) world view, wear exploding collars?

Oh...sorry, this isn't the sci-fi film thread is it?
Leontien
Ah, Rutger Hauer, what a man.... Still my standard of gorgeousness...
Ooops sorry, this was NOT the sci-fi thread?
Martyn
I was thinking of Arnie in The Running Man, but I just watched the trailer for the special edition DVD and I don't see him wearing an exploding collar but I was sure he did and had it removed at some point in the story by Mick Fleetwood of Fleetwood Mac.

Interestingly the trailer is for the updated special edition of the movie wiich includes bonus documentaries, one of which is about surveillance and privacy in "a post 9/11 world".

Wow! I almost got back on topic even though I'm waffling about bloddy sci-fi movies.
Leontien
I thought you meant "wedlock"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103239/

But I'm sure I'm not the only one with a sci-fi fetish wink.gif
Roo
QUOTE(Martyn @ Jan 21 2008, 01:31 AM) *

I was thinking of Arnie


DiFranco?
Black Cloud
I see that according to leaked document the Home Office/Government are looking into ways to coerce (their word not mine) people into volunteering for an ID Card.
Teachers requiring a CRB check will need to enrol for an ID Card
Students requiring a loan, ditto.
Young persons applying for a provisional driving licence, no ID Card, no driving for you kid.
Of course the card is stil 'Volutary!!!
mr_k
Black cloud that is amazing, they will only lose it anyway, am never gettin 1 tongue.gif whatever they do
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