Full Version: I.d Cards
The Lords have, quite reasonably, asked for a cost breakdown and audit of the ID Cards scheme and the Government have refused.
Why, if they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear.
Black Cloud
Why, if they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear.
Black Cloud
According to Andy Burnham, the minister in charge of id cards, has said that they will now contain RFID chips. Whilst these are designed to be read at arange of a few centimetres with a suitably tuned up scanner that range can be increased to tens of metres.
So not only will the government be able to track anyone stupid enough to carry an id card, any toerag in the identity theft business can read the access codes for your personal data stored on the National Identity Register Database.
Preferable to digging around in wheely bins I supose.
On the plus side we can now call them Spy D Cards
Black Cloud
So not only will the government be able to track anyone stupid enough to carry an id card, any toerag in the identity theft business can read the access codes for your personal data stored on the National Identity Register Database.
Preferable to digging around in wheely bins I supose.
On the plus side we can now call them Spy D Cards
Black Cloud
This just illustrates how unfathomably thick some of our politicians are when it comes to IT and associated technologies.
Who is advising them? Some bloke down the pub?
The KLF?
The crims must be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of RFID being incorporated into the cards.
They could make more in a day sitting in a van at the end of a busy high street than they could in a year trawling through trash cans.
Just the other day we were treated to Charles Clarke and some female member of the Lords telling us that the ID card scheme will be voluntary. Unless that is, you want a passport in which case you'll have to have a new ID card. Which means that if you don't want to travel it's voluntary but if you do want to pop to Lanzarote for a cheapo week in the sun it's not. Jim Naughtie kept putting this very point and they both kept sidestepping the issue. It was toe curlingly embarassing and I just kept feeling that if I'd tried being even half as mendacious with a teacher, or God forbid, my headmaster I'd have been thrashed to within an inch of my life for taking the piss.
It did confirm one thing. No, two things. First: I couldn't be a politician to save my life because I'm crap at lying. Second: I couldn't be an interviewer because faced with what politicians trot out so readily I'd be saying something like "Oh come off it you lying twat, try telling the truth". and instantly be out of the door P45 in hand.
Who is advising them? Some bloke down the pub?
The KLF?
The crims must be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of RFID being incorporated into the cards.
They could make more in a day sitting in a van at the end of a busy high street than they could in a year trawling through trash cans.
Just the other day we were treated to Charles Clarke and some female member of the Lords telling us that the ID card scheme will be voluntary. Unless that is, you want a passport in which case you'll have to have a new ID card. Which means that if you don't want to travel it's voluntary but if you do want to pop to Lanzarote for a cheapo week in the sun it's not. Jim Naughtie kept putting this very point and they both kept sidestepping the issue. It was toe curlingly embarassing and I just kept feeling that if I'd tried being even half as mendacious with a teacher, or God forbid, my headmaster I'd have been thrashed to within an inch of my life for taking the piss.
It did confirm one thing. No, two things. First: I couldn't be a politician to save my life because I'm crap at lying. Second: I couldn't be an interviewer because faced with what politicians trot out so readily I'd be saying something like "Oh come off it you lying twat, try telling the truth". and instantly be out of the door P45 in hand.
QUOTE(Martyn @ Nov 17 2005, 10:13 PM)
Today (and most likely for a good few days ahead) I are mostly hating the guts of Andy Burnham MP, arsehole, creep and toady who reckons Stella is talking out of her arse.
If the former boss of MI5 doesn't think that ID cards will do much good in the fight agaisnt terrorism whay does he think they're such a bally idea?
What are they for?
(rhetorical question, same one I've been asking since this thread started and to which I've not yet been given a satisfactory answer by any ID card supporter)
If the former boss of MI5 doesn't think that ID cards will do much good in the fight agaisnt terrorism whay does he think they're such a bally idea?
What are they for?
(rhetorical question, same one I've been asking since this thread started and to which I've not yet been given a satisfactory answer by any ID card supporter)
Andy Bleedin' Burnham.
I don't like Andy Burnham.
re getting shown the door with p45
its exactly this real people on the street reaction that is missing so much from the sham of politics on tv these days
we need exactly people like you on there saying it like it is
we need exactly this kind of honest approach
to some extent brought about by the broadcasting rules that insist on balance, expecially after an election has been called, would probably be better if those rules were taken away and just give all kinds of people a chance to air their views without the cencorship of the wine and cheese media luvies
its exactly this real people on the street reaction that is missing so much from the sham of politics on tv these days
we need exactly people like you on there saying it like it is
we need exactly this kind of honest approach
to some extent brought about by the broadcasting rules that insist on balance, expecially after an election has been called, would probably be better if those rules were taken away and just give all kinds of people a chance to air their views without the cencorship of the wine and cheese media luvies
QUOTE
I think we've won the argument on it - Tony Blair
I think Tony Blair will be regarded by historians the world over as one of the finest politicians and statesmen to heve ever lived.
Somebody had better start calling for a referendum on this ID card shit.
Have you noticed how the anti terror reason for having them is almost ignored or if mentioned is secondary to the "new" reason of protection against identity theft?
Also a complete dismissal of all questions related to cost and who will pay.
The slimey mendacity trotted out by Brown on the Today programme concerning compulsion - FFS! how can he expect the electorate to take politics seriously when he's prepared to say that linking passport application to ID card issue isn't compulsion by the back door. Completely incapapble of conceding that only those willing to give up the right to travel in other countries would be allowed to voluntarily register for the card.
It was positvely sickening.
It means that we're aligned with all the most dictatorial oppressive tyranical regimes that have ever existed.
Who is the most notorius terrorist leader? Osama Bin Laden.
Where is he? Have they caught him? Do the warrriors against terror have even the slightest idea where he is or what he's up to?
Will keeping me in a virtual prison make his capture, incarceration and trial even remotely any more likely? Of course not.
A free country?
You must be joking.
There's still a long way to go on this Martyn.
The counter terrorism angle was never going to work in more than the short term and I think that once the public fully realises the cost implications and increased threat of identity theft public opposition will become more vocal.
It's a very expensive way of reducing benefit fraud.
The counter terrorism angle was never going to work in more than the short term and I think that once the public fully realises the cost implications and increased threat of identity theft public opposition will become more vocal.
It's a very expensive way of reducing benefit fraud.
The bill could still 'ping pong' betwee the Commons and Lord until the end of the Parlimentary session. It would then have to go through both houses again before the Parliment Act could be used. By which time it could have become an electoral liability.
Then of course the Home Office are bound to cock up the implimentation of the computer system.
That said I won't be voting labour again.
Black Cloud
Then of course the Home Office are bound to cock up the implimentation of the computer system.
That said I won't be voting labour again.
Black Cloud
Of course I understand all the points you're both making and naturally I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the whole of the the UK feels the same way that almost every single person I've asked about the subject. I can't find anyone who thinks it's a good idea and a top hole way of spending six billion quid. Blair reckons he has widespread public support but from whom?
I love the electoral liability angle LBC.
Once the public are fully aware of just how much information the cards will carry, how much potential they have for function creep and that they may well include RFID, Labour will be looking at a new PM from the opposition benches unless they ditch the whole idea.
Something crossed my mind today whilst thinking about this very subject.
Whenever we go anywhere these days, anywhere that requires a ticket for instance, that ticket usually states, admittedly in very small print, that the proprietors or promoters reserve the right to refuse entry to the whatever it is you want to do or see.
Currently football grounds have very limited ways and means of keeping out undesirable elements. How much easier for them to "clean up the image" by installing scanners at the ground and in the club shop so that anybody wishing to purchase a ticket must first have their ID card scanned. The club could easily persuade magistrates or a judge that since the technology exists that would help to prevent activity likley to cause a breach of the peace or worse, then they should have access to the ID card data base and therefore be able to exclude anybody who has been arrested or charged or convicted of such crimes.
In other words the trouble makers or those deemed likely to be a nuisance can be prevented from entering the venue before the event. Whereas the football clubs would have had to wait until the trouble had occurred, the miscreants caught and their idnetities veruified by conventional means.
This all assumes, of course, that the ID crad with RFID and a chip would hold information such as your civil or criminal record. Wouldn't happen? Well how long are the police going to sit on their arses saying nothing instead of being able to ask not for your driving licence but your ID card at the road side. They could access your driving record, every parking fine you'd ever clocked up and pretty much anything else some politician like Burnham wants to include.
Before anybody starts shooting this idea down in flames as pie in the sky claptrap let me just say that if a bloke riding round the UK in his truck listening to the radio all day can come up with a scheme like this be sure the owners and promoters of every mass event that you can imagine will think of it too.
Glastonbury ticket without a biometric ID card anybody?
I love the electoral liability angle LBC.
Once the public are fully aware of just how much information the cards will carry, how much potential they have for function creep and that they may well include RFID, Labour will be looking at a new PM from the opposition benches unless they ditch the whole idea.
Something crossed my mind today whilst thinking about this very subject.
Whenever we go anywhere these days, anywhere that requires a ticket for instance, that ticket usually states, admittedly in very small print, that the proprietors or promoters reserve the right to refuse entry to the whatever it is you want to do or see.
Currently football grounds have very limited ways and means of keeping out undesirable elements. How much easier for them to "clean up the image" by installing scanners at the ground and in the club shop so that anybody wishing to purchase a ticket must first have their ID card scanned. The club could easily persuade magistrates or a judge that since the technology exists that would help to prevent activity likley to cause a breach of the peace or worse, then they should have access to the ID card data base and therefore be able to exclude anybody who has been arrested or charged or convicted of such crimes.
In other words the trouble makers or those deemed likely to be a nuisance can be prevented from entering the venue before the event. Whereas the football clubs would have had to wait until the trouble had occurred, the miscreants caught and their idnetities veruified by conventional means.
This all assumes, of course, that the ID crad with RFID and a chip would hold information such as your civil or criminal record. Wouldn't happen? Well how long are the police going to sit on their arses saying nothing instead of being able to ask not for your driving licence but your ID card at the road side. They could access your driving record, every parking fine you'd ever clocked up and pretty much anything else some politician like Burnham wants to include.
Before anybody starts shooting this idea down in flames as pie in the sky claptrap let me just say that if a bloke riding round the UK in his truck listening to the radio all day can come up with a scheme like this be sure the owners and promoters of every mass event that you can imagine will think of it too.
Glastonbury ticket without a biometric ID card anybody?
Don't many EU countries have ID cards? half the world? We did during WW2, Won't this ultimately replace passports and various other forms of ID in our wallets and handbags?
Function creep well like CCTV and DNA if my wife and kids are safer then thats okay with me.
I don't see a civil liberties angle that isn't really a conspiracy theory that means our government is secretly out to get us!!!!
BUT I do have some practical real world problems with it;
The cost is it going to sky rocket?
Will the technology work?
Won't forgers find a way round it? they have done throughout history.
Function creep well like CCTV and DNA if my wife and kids are safer then thats okay with me.
I don't see a civil liberties angle that isn't really a conspiracy theory that means our government is secretly out to get us!!!!
BUT I do have some practical real world problems with it;
The cost is it going to sky rocket?
Will the technology work?
Won't forgers find a way round it? they have done throughout history.
QUOTE
The cost is it going to sky rocket?
Will the technology work?
Won't forgers find a way round it? they have done throughout history
Will the technology work?
Won't forgers find a way round it? they have done throughout history
In order: Yes, After about 30 years then still not completely without glitches and Within a week of their introduction.
All of which WE'LL pay for, money which could be spent on so mnay more useful things there isn't space on the forum to list them.
And you don't care that the kind of people who enjoy their peaked caps and armbands will know everything about you and have the power to have you arrested should you deny them access to that information. You're comfortable with that.
Another thought. Will these things, as complex as they are, not make a huge number of police officers redundant?
A common misconception about ID Cards with a lot of people is that they will replace passports, driving licenses etc. The won't, they are in addition to all the others.
Black Cloud
Black Cloud
Peaked caps and armbands? Do you mean nazi's? Well the good moderate British people have a fine record of rejecting the BUF and NF in the past but if we did let them gain power I think id cards or not they would find a way to identify the unpure, we'd have more serious things to worry about.
Why would I deny the police my id card If they wanted to see it I'm a happily married father of two and my misspent youth is a few years ago. I'm an active citizen I pick up litter and report graffitti, I would help the authorities anyway I could.
Police numbers well they went down under Michael Howard who talked tough but delivered nothing and have gone up under Labour, the public wanted more police and thats what they've got.
I expect that the id cards would have spare capacity and may very well be able to become all in one id's ultimately replacing passports and driving licences after all they both have your photo on and it does seem duplication that we don't need.
Once upon a time people had to take gassbills etc to prove who they were/where they lived an id card with address details would solve this.
As I said I have no principled objections, we would not be one step away from totalitatarianism or any other similar objections, Spain and Holland are democracies!!!
My objections are practical will it work and will it cost too much?
Why would I deny the police my id card If they wanted to see it I'm a happily married father of two and my misspent youth is a few years ago. I'm an active citizen I pick up litter and report graffitti, I would help the authorities anyway I could.
Police numbers well they went down under Michael Howard who talked tough but delivered nothing and have gone up under Labour, the public wanted more police and thats what they've got.
I expect that the id cards would have spare capacity and may very well be able to become all in one id's ultimately replacing passports and driving licences after all they both have your photo on and it does seem duplication that we don't need.
Once upon a time people had to take gassbills etc to prove who they were/where they lived an id card with address details would solve this.
As I said I have no principled objections, we would not be one step away from totalitatarianism or any other similar objections, Spain and Holland are democracies!!!
My objections are practical will it work and will it cost too much?
Peaked caps and armbands? Do you mean nazi's? Well the good moderate British people have a fine record of rejecting the BUF and NF in the past but if we did let them gain power I think id cards or not they would find a way to identify the unpure, we'd have more serious things to worry about.
Why would I deny the police my id card If they wanted to see it I'm a happily married father of two and my misspent youth is a few years ago. I'm an active citizen I pick up litter and report graffitti, I would help the authorities anyway I could.
Police numbers well they went down under Michael Howard who talked tough but delivered nothing and have gone up under Labour, the public wanted more police and thats what they've got.
I expect that the id cards would have spare capacity and may very well be able to become all in one id's ultimately replacing passports and driving licences after all they both have your photo on and it does seem duplication that we don't need.
Once upon a time people had to take gassbills etc to prove who they were/where they lived an id card with address details would solve this.
As I said I have no principled objections, we would not be one step away from totalitatarianism or any other similar objections, Spain and Holland are democracies!!!
My objections are practical will it work and will it cost too much?
Why would I deny the police my id card If they wanted to see it I'm a happily married father of two and my misspent youth is a few years ago. I'm an active citizen I pick up litter and report graffitti, I would help the authorities anyway I could.
Police numbers well they went down under Michael Howard who talked tough but delivered nothing and have gone up under Labour, the public wanted more police and thats what they've got.
I expect that the id cards would have spare capacity and may very well be able to become all in one id's ultimately replacing passports and driving licences after all they both have your photo on and it does seem duplication that we don't need.
Once upon a time people had to take gassbills etc to prove who they were/where they lived an id card with address details would solve this.
As I said I have no principled objections, we would not be one step away from totalitatarianism or any other similar objections, Spain and Holland are democracies!!!
My objections are practical will it work and will it cost too much?
Surely the question is, not 'why not?' but 'why?'
I've heard all kinds of claims for their 'benefits.' And I get the feeling that if I wait a week, they'll find another one.
By all accounts, the technology isn't that great when it comes to recognition (face and iris).
Having worked in IT, I find it very hard to believe that anything is infallible - and the more I hear such claims, the harder I find it... [Nevermind the cards, what about the database?]
I object to being treated like a criminal in my own country (being fingerprinted) so I say no.
Actually, I say tptptptptphhh.
(Means the same, just harder to spell 
)
I've heard all kinds of claims for their 'benefits.' And I get the feeling that if I wait a week, they'll find another one.
By all accounts, the technology isn't that great when it comes to recognition (face and iris).
Having worked in IT, I find it very hard to believe that anything is infallible - and the more I hear such claims, the harder I find it... [Nevermind the cards, what about the database?]
I object to being treated like a criminal in my own country (being fingerprinted) so I say no.
Actually, I say tptptptptphhh.
(Means the same, just harder to spell )
QUOTE(Mick H @ Feb 15 2006, 01:00 PM)
Once upon a time people had to take gassbills etc to prove who they were/where they lived an id card with address details would solve this.
a little bit more info than your address will be held on it
Personal information
full name
other names by which person is or has been known
date of birth
place of birth
gender
address of principal place of residence in the United Kingdom
the address of every other place in the United Kingdom where person has a place of residence.
Identifying information
a photograph of head and shoulders
signature
fingerprints
other biometric information
Residential status
nationality
entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom where that entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave
Personal reference numbers
National Identity Registration Number
the number of any ID card issued
allocated national insurance number
the number of any relevant immigration document
the number of their United Kingdom passport
the number of any passport issued to the individual by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation
the number of any document that can be used by them (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
the number of any identity card issued to him/her by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom
any reference number allocated to him/her by the secretary of state in connection with an application made by him for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom
the number of any work permit relating to him/her;
any driver number given to him/her by a driving licence;
the number of any designated document which is held by him/her and is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs
the date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
Record history
information falling within the preceding paragraphs that has previously been recorded about him/her in the Register
particulars of changes affecting that information and of changes made to his/her entry in the Register
date of death.
Registration and ID card history
the date of every application for registration made by him/her
the date of every application by him/her for a modification of the contents of his entry
the date of every application by him/her confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes)
the reason for any omission from the information recorded in his/her entry
particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued to him/her
whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not
particulars of every person who has countersigned an application by him/her for an ID card or a designated document, so far as those particulars were included on the application
particulars of every notification given about lost, stolen and damaged ID cards
particulars of every requirement by the secretary of state for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to him.
Validation information
the information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of his entry or for the issue of an ID card
the information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without changes)
particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (B) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application
particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register
particulars of every notification given by that individual for changing details in the register.
Security information
a personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his/her entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
a password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code
questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
Records of provision of information
particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual's entry has been provided to a person
particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion
other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
Compulsion by stealth has been overturned by the Commons now the ID Bill is on its way back to the Lords. Hopefully they'll send it back ammended again.
That said I expect the commons to get their way in the end so the fight needs to move on to getting the bill repealed.
Black Cloud
That said I expect the commons to get their way in the end so the fight needs to move on to getting the bill repealed.
Black Cloud
Did you see what that sanctimonious (sp?) old cunt Clarke said, when accused of making them compulsory by the back door (by forcing people who renew their passport to get a card) - he said something, while laughing, like "Passports aren't compulsory, people don't have to have them"
They do if they want to go on bloody holiday though don't they?
I don't think I could hate this government any more than I do now.
They do if they want to go on bloody holiday though don't they?
I don't think I could hate this government any more than I do now.
They do if they want to go on bloody holiday though don't they?
I don't think I could hate this government any more than I do now.
[/quote]
I'm against because of the cost not a spurious civil liberties reason or the love of a good conspiracy theory like many on this post but really id cards are a side issue compared to record spending on schools, police and the NHS.
The amount of national income going on taxes is set to top 40% and its going over £500bn thats half a trillion.
This government is stimulating our economy by public spending surely you bunch of lefties should be pleased but some people always want to be a permenant opposition after all it's easier just to moan rather than get your hands dirty and work out realistic possible answers to people's problems.
I don't think I could hate this government any more than I do now.
[/quote]
I'm against because of the cost not a spurious civil liberties reason or the love of a good conspiracy theory like many on this post but really id cards are a side issue compared to record spending on schools, police and the NHS.
The amount of national income going on taxes is set to top 40% and its going over £500bn thats half a trillion.
This government is stimulating our economy by public spending surely you bunch of lefties should be pleased but some people always want to be a permenant opposition after all it's easier just to moan rather than get your hands dirty and work out realistic possible answers to people's problems.
Lovely a public fucking broadcast from the NEW labour party.
Thanks for that Mick H
Thanks for that Mick H
Forget ID cards.Red Ken seems to have made Oyster Cards almost compulsory in london (if you want to travel at a reasonable price on public transport).
Will the eco-Left's support for the Oyster card diminish now it is revealed it being used to hunt criminals??? Very big brother.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...don/4800490.stm
Will the eco-Left's support for the Oyster card diminish now it is revealed it being used to hunt criminals??? Very big brother.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...don/4800490.stm
QUOTE(Mick H @ Mar 14 2006, 04:34 PM)
I'm against because of the cost not a spurious civil liberties reason or the love of a good conspiracy theory like many on this post but really id cards are a side issue compared to record spending on schools, police and the NHS.
The amount of national income going on taxes is set to top 40% and its going over £500bn thats half a trillion.
This government is stimulating our economy by public spending surely you bunch of lefties should be pleased but some people always want to be a permenant opposition after all it's easier just to moan rather than get your hands dirty and work out realistic possible answers to people's problems.
The amount of national income going on taxes is set to top 40% and its going over £500bn thats half a trillion.
This government is stimulating our economy by public spending surely you bunch of lefties should be pleased but some people always want to be a permenant opposition after all it's easier just to moan rather than get your hands dirty and work out realistic possible answers to people's problems.
You know it is possible to support the government's record on spending and not support ID cards on civil liberties grounds. They are not mutually exclusive.
ID cards are not a side issue - this government is busy setting up the apparatus for a police state. It is very worrying.
ID cards are not a side issue - this government is busy setting up the apparatus for a police state. It is very worrying.
[/quote]
Rob, I'm glad you support the government on tax and spend.
Police state? come on half the democratic world has id cards already, just take Spain under Franco that was a police state, its a democracy now.
With the Freedom of Information Act, Scots parliament, welsh assembly, GLA and a whole host of mayors and no more hereditary peers in the Lords and an independent commision to oversee the appointment of new peers Labour has extended democracy.
Its more open with FOI and Labours openness has hurt it, we now know every political doner over £5,000, something as with all the rest the Tories would never have done.
Our country has become more open not less, it's our openess and democracy that our enemies try to exploit when they blow up tube trains.
Its not perfect or fast enough change for many but it's a hell of a lot better than the 18 years before. It was the Tories who used the apparatus of the state to crush the miners. the nearest Labour has got to an enemy within is posh foxhunters!!!
[/quote]
Rob, I'm glad you support the government on tax and spend.
Police state? come on half the democratic world has id cards already, just take Spain under Franco that was a police state, its a democracy now.
With the Freedom of Information Act, Scots parliament, welsh assembly, GLA and a whole host of mayors and no more hereditary peers in the Lords and an independent commision to oversee the appointment of new peers Labour has extended democracy.
Its more open with FOI and Labours openness has hurt it, we now know every political doner over £5,000, something as with all the rest the Tories would never have done.
Our country has become more open not less, it's our openess and democracy that our enemies try to exploit when they blow up tube trains.
Its not perfect or fast enough change for many but it's a hell of a lot better than the 18 years before. It was the Tories who used the apparatus of the state to crush the miners. the nearest Labour has got to an enemy within is posh foxhunters!!!
bollocks the freedom of info act is a sham, the information commissioner has massive backlog of public authorities against which many genuine complaints have been made, and is so far behind it may as well not exist
yea the lords has been fixed to give labour an unnatural chance of winning
as as for socttish parliament etc all there to take away the rights of free englishmen as far as i can see, we have a govt that lost the election in england lording it over a country (england) which if it were independant would be far and away richer per head than paying hand over fist to support out irish/welsh/scots friends
so some demoncracy, not at all representative of the people
yea the lords has been fixed to give labour an unnatural chance of winning
as as for socttish parliament etc all there to take away the rights of free englishmen as far as i can see, we have a govt that lost the election in england lording it over a country (england) which if it were independant would be far and away richer per head than paying hand over fist to support out irish/welsh/scots friends
so some demoncracy, not at all representative of the people
and as for id cards and SO CALLED anti-terror measures, i am afraid it is all a complete and utter waste of national wealth and reosurces, only encouraged by lobbying from the very consultancies making stacks from it
They are now going to be complsory and, according to Andy Burman on Radio 4 yesterday will be require on a day to day basis.
So much for the volutary cards promised in Labours Manifesto
Black Cloud
So much for the volutary cards promised in Labours Manifesto
Black Cloud
From the BBC News pages...
Full story of peers willingness to cave in here.
Politicians don't like it when they are called liars. Why is that? Is it perhaps because they lie like fuck all the time and we keep noticing?
Police are currently looking into the posssibility that corruption charges might be brought against persons involved in this loans for peerages bollocks. I do hope so.
QUOTE
Up until now, peers had firmly opposed plans to force all passport applicants to get an ID card, claiming the scheme was not "voluntary".
However, Mr Clarke argued the proposals were consistent with Labour's manifesto - a claim rejected by peers.
However, Mr Clarke argued the proposals were consistent with Labour's manifesto - a claim rejected by peers.
Full story of peers willingness to cave in here.
Politicians don't like it when they are called liars. Why is that? Is it perhaps because they lie like fuck all the time and we keep noticing?
Police are currently looking into the posssibility that corruption charges might be brought against persons involved in this loans for peerages bollocks. I do hope so.
fuck that lying to the queen about reasons for nominating a peer is treason
and should get the life sentence it deserves
and should get the life sentence it deserves
Personally I'm not worried about them lying to the Queen - I think the monarchy should be abolished and their wealth redistributed... What does concern me is that it has taken so long for this to be investigated.
It does raise some really important questions about the nature of funding political parties in the future. Should it come from the public purse? Should that apply to ALL political parties, or just the main three?
I keep thinking back to the shortest bill ever to go before parliment, the one that Tony Benn put forward for abolition of the House of Lords. I'm sickened by the 'compromise' of not making cards complosory (sp?) until 2010 - what next? RFID chips in new born children...
It does raise some really important questions about the nature of funding political parties in the future. Should it come from the public purse? Should that apply to ALL political parties, or just the main three?
I keep thinking back to the shortest bill ever to go before parliment, the one that Tony Benn put forward for abolition of the House of Lords. I'm sickened by the 'compromise' of not making cards complosory (sp?) until 2010 - what next? RFID chips in new born children...
i think the lords just hope and pray it will get overturned by the next election, just hope a viable opposition comes along very anti id cards
yea the police are too politically controlled, and their oath to do things "without fear or favour" is routinely and institutionally ridden rought shod every day, from letting foreign lorry drivers off with warnings when brits get prosectuted for the same offences, to similar for foreign tourists being let off with all manner of road offences, to failing to deal with out of control teenagers because "their parents are the local big time criminals and we would need many more officers to take them on", to ignoring potential wrongdoing amongst political masters
but you see the law and the way it is implemented has never been a black and white thing, it depends on the common sense and good will of the people involved, but even that has broken down with people loosing their jobs through nothing more than doing 33 or 34 mph in a 30 limit a few times
so on the ID card thing, i think they can fuck off, and until they actually do something about the ILLEGAL immigrants, and various thugs walking the streets, i think the honest majority should invoke the wrath of king john and ask for the magna carta back thanks
but you know the bbc will report it in a pro govt way, and pro establishment way, cos they have their licence fee to protect, as much as i hate murdoch at least occassionally he does that out of control thing which adds to the debate
yea the police are too politically controlled, and their oath to do things "without fear or favour" is routinely and institutionally ridden rought shod every day, from letting foreign lorry drivers off with warnings when brits get prosectuted for the same offences, to similar for foreign tourists being let off with all manner of road offences, to failing to deal with out of control teenagers because "their parents are the local big time criminals and we would need many more officers to take them on", to ignoring potential wrongdoing amongst political masters
but you see the law and the way it is implemented has never been a black and white thing, it depends on the common sense and good will of the people involved, but even that has broken down with people loosing their jobs through nothing more than doing 33 or 34 mph in a 30 limit a few times
so on the ID card thing, i think they can fuck off, and until they actually do something about the ILLEGAL immigrants, and various thugs walking the streets, i think the honest majority should invoke the wrath of king john and ask for the magna carta back thanks
but you know the bbc will report it in a pro govt way, and pro establishment way, cos they have their licence fee to protect, as much as i hate murdoch at least occassionally he does that out of control thing which adds to the debate
Take a look at this: http://news.ft.com/cms/s/fac1747a-ce45-11d...00779e2340.html.
The silly bastards are going to rush it. An artificially tight time scale is about the best method available for derailing a project and pushing costs through the roof.
Black Cloud
The silly bastards are going to rush it. An artificially tight time scale is about the best method available for derailing a project and pushing costs through the roof.
Black Cloud
Not strictly about ID cards but this is scary...
QUOTE(Busy Girl @ May 6 2006, 08:00 PM)
This is relevant. If the National Identity Register which will contain your Government Identity Record is compromised, as it will be, then things like this will be even easier.
Black Cloud
Don't be a NIRD*, say no to ID
*
National Identity Register Database.
you should see how badly the hundreds of millions of pounds on anti terror measures are being wasted, ive seen some of these projects close up, and just repeat my view that governments are crap at spending money efficiently
weve all seen how crap the home office is in the press the last few days, dont think blaming the politicians is right in this case, its a bad culture and bad management from top to bottom
to be honest id give the money to some long serving front line coppers to spend, they could do a much more effective job, it wouldnt be hard
the changing world of terror has only allowed some idiots to build empires within the public sector and produce ever more wasteful projects
the real terrorists will not be affected in the slightest by this massive spend, or by any of the measures being imposed on the law abiding public
weve all seen how crap the home office is in the press the last few days, dont think blaming the politicians is right in this case, its a bad culture and bad management from top to bottom
to be honest id give the money to some long serving front line coppers to spend, they could do a much more effective job, it wouldnt be hard
the changing world of terror has only allowed some idiots to build empires within the public sector and produce ever more wasteful projects
the real terrorists will not be affected in the slightest by this massive spend, or by any of the measures being imposed on the law abiding public
QUOTE(tinman @ May 7 2006, 11:00 AM)
you should see how badly the hundreds of millions of pounds on anti terror measures are being wasted, ive seen some of these projects close up, and just repeat my view that governments are crap at spending money efficiently
weve all seen how crap the home office is in the press the last few days, dont think blaming the politicians is right in this case, its a bad culture and bad management from top to bottom
to be honest id give the money to some long serving front line coppers to spend, they could do a much more effective job, it wouldnt be hard
the changing world of terror has only allowed some idiots to build empires within the public sector and produce ever more wasteful projects
the real terrorists will not be affected in the slightest by this massive spend, or by any of the measures being imposed on the law abiding public
I don't suppose you are going to actually back this up with evidence?
Yawn 
QUOTE(the klf @ May 8 2006, 09:42 AM)
Yawn
An to think you used to be all in favour of this scheme, now it's just a yawn.
Perhaps you will change your mind when you have to travel, at your own expense, to a Government Registration Centre for your security interview and to have your prints taken for your Government ID Record on the National Identity Register
Just out of interest have a look at the last line of this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4754733.stm
Black Cloud
Don't be a nerd, stay off the NIRD*
* National Identity Register Database.
QUOTE
Mr Blair went on: "If people want to track illegal migration and organised crime in this country, you've got to have ID cards.
He's banging on about how important they are again.
BBC News article here.
Can somebody please explain to me how ths system will work? I've asked on numerous occasions and still haven't had it explained satisfactorily.
So far as I can tell it will work thus: Law abiding person gets ID card to comply with LAW requiring everybody to have one. Never gets into trouble in entire life. Government can track law abiding persons movements, spending habits, personal habits, medical condition, political persuasion, from issue until death. Government bodies can deny access to any or all services provided by the state if ID cannot be produced on demand.
Terrorist or criminal also gets ID card so as not to draw suspicion by constantly cropping up without one. IE when in the post office or when pulled over by traffic police. Terrorist or criminal plots crimes and terrorist activities and carries them out just as they always have but whilst doing so now has a biometric ID card in their wallet. Most criminals however choose to ignore the LAW requiring everybody to have an ID card because they are, um, criminals.
Have I got that about right? I think I have.
Again. What are the advantages for Law abiding persons? I see none that I do not enjoy already and many disadvantages vis a vis my personal freedom and privacy.
As a wiser man than me said - "why would ID cards stop crime? They're criminals, they might fib."
That is what I do not understand. Even if they brought in fingerpring /dna recognition, criminals would just cut fingers off people to get by it.
So it is nothing to do with criminals. they will create an indutry to get around whatever method is brought in.
So what is it about?
Every time I pay in or take out £1000 from the bank, a report goes to the government. Every time I send/receive money from abroad, a report goes to the government.
all my money is legally earned. They say its to stop money laundering so I do not buy that either.
They just want control over eveything we do, earn, play and even think. That is my view.
because they are fascists. Worse than The BNP because they will never get in. New Labour is here and they are watching you.
And ID cards are to monitor your movements. Nothing to do with crims or terrorists; that is an excuse.
So it is nothing to do with criminals. they will create an indutry to get around whatever method is brought in.
So what is it about?
Every time I pay in or take out £1000 from the bank, a report goes to the government. Every time I send/receive money from abroad, a report goes to the government.
all my money is legally earned. They say its to stop money laundering so I do not buy that either.
They just want control over eveything we do, earn, play and even think. That is my view.
because they are fascists. Worse than The BNP because they will never get in. New Labour is here and they are watching you.
And ID cards are to monitor your movements. Nothing to do with crims or terrorists; that is an excuse.
i feel i should say well done to Lib for doing a whole post without mentioning (what billy calls) the f word
sarah, that's lovely
sarah, that's lovely
I won't mention it when the government stops forcing the law down our throats. Still didnt mention it.
You have 24 pages of comments on ID cards...I do not lame you. I am equally angry about it as you. But don't say I am obsessed about another area of opression.
Damn I almost want to come up with a good reson for them...just to be devils advocate...but i can't.
Does anyone have any idea? Have you wriyyen to your MPs and asked? Waht do they say? Since ID card do not stop terroism or immigration or crime in other countries that argument can easily be dismisssed. So want is the real reason for them? I think its the same as chip and pin and myspace. So we are all plugged into the hive.
Its Blair's Borg vision
You have 24 pages of comments on ID cards...I do not lame you. I am equally angry about it as you. But don't say I am obsessed about another area of opression.
Damn I almost want to come up with a good reson for them...just to be devils advocate...but i can't.
Does anyone have any idea? Have you wriyyen to your MPs and asked? Waht do they say? Since ID card do not stop terroism or immigration or crime in other countries that argument can easily be dismisssed. So want is the real reason for them? I think its the same as chip and pin and myspace. So we are all plugged into the hive.
Its Blair's Borg vision
QUOTE
criminals would just cut fingers off people to get by it.
ROTFLMAO.Not because I think you're wrong Lib. They would do that, of course they would.
I've written to my (now ex) MP, Julie Kirkbride (Con), Bromsgrove, West Mids, and she told me that she did not support the introduction of ID Cards.
I rather think that would be until the tories were back in power and they'd no doubt have had a change of heart by then. But we'll see.
I've asked the bods at The Labour Party, 39 Victoria Street, London SW1H 0HA and all you get is a standard reply alomg with a whole chunk of goverment policy. It's as if there is no distiction between the party and goverment. Those spinless toadies won't do or say owt to upset Tone's apple cart.
QUOTE(Martyn @ Aug 3 2006, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE
Mr Blair went on: "If people want to track illegal migration and organised crime in this country, you've got to have ID cards.
He's banging on about how important they are again.
BBC News article here.
Can somebody please explain to me how ths system will work? I've asked on numerous occasions and still haven't had it explained satisfactorily.
So far as I can tell it will work thus: Law abiding person gets ID card to comply with LAW requiring everybody to have one. Never gets into trouble in entire life. Government can track law abiding persons movements, spending habits, personal habits, medical condition, political persuasion, from issue until death. Government bodies can deny access to any or all services provided by the state if ID cannot be produced on demand.
Terrorist or criminal also gets ID card so as not to draw suspicion by constantly cropping up without one. IE when in the post office or when pulled over by traffic police. Terrorist or criminal plots crimes and terrorist activities and carries them out just as they always have but whilst doing so now has a biometric ID card in their wallet. Most criminals however choose to ignore the LAW requiring everybody to have an ID card because they are, um, criminals.
Have I got that about right? I think I have.
Again. What are the advantages for Law abiding persons? I see none that I do not enjoy already and many disadvantages vis a vis my personal freedom and privacy.
Sounds about right to me.
In future don't think things through logically, in fact don't think about things at all, it upsets Uncle Tony's 'Legacy', and that is what ID Cards are all about.
Black Cloud
Yes. Logical thinking. That would be silly.
However here we have signs of yet another Nail in the Coffin for his master plan.
I like this bit best.
Also;
Whch means one of two things. 1st, they have no idea or 2nd, they do, but are too scared to let on just yet.
However here we have signs of yet another Nail in the Coffin for his master plan.
I like this bit best.
QUOTE
Liberal Democrat MP Phil Willis said there was "not the level of confidence in this scheme that could be expected at this stage".
He said: "Despite their vested interests in the scheme, industrial representatives are speaking openly about their concerns regarding the identity cards programme - this should set alarm bells in the Home Office ringing."
There were currently too many uncertainties and "as a matter of urgency", the Home Office needed to give "a clearer idea of what identity cards will be used for", he added.
He said: "Despite their vested interests in the scheme, industrial representatives are speaking openly about their concerns regarding the identity cards programme - this should set alarm bells in the Home Office ringing."
There were currently too many uncertainties and "as a matter of urgency", the Home Office needed to give "a clearer idea of what identity cards will be used for", he added.
Also;
QUOTE
We recommend that the Home Office releases more information regarding what personal data will be revealed in different scenarios, said the Commons science and technology committee
Whch means one of two things. 1st, they have no idea or 2nd, they do, but are too scared to let on just yet.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jh...1/06/do0601.xml
Our glorious leader is once again pushing the ID Card agenda and now he is getting scary. Consider the following: "The case for ID cards is a case not about liberty but about the modern world."
So liberty is too old hat for these modern times?
Black Cloud
Our glorious leader is once again pushing the ID Card agenda and now he is getting scary. Consider the following: "The case for ID cards is a case not about liberty but about the modern world."
So liberty is too old hat for these modern times?
Black Cloud
Black cloud - you know I agree with you and support you but did we really need a whole new thread about one article in the Torygraph?
Could this not just have gone in the ID cards thread?
Could this not just have gone in the ID cards thread?
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