I WILL tell you that.



I deal in the truth and statistics.I don't deal in political correctness.Now if you want me to be sympathetic with those groups that are more likely to commit crime because of the lack of oppotunities society provides them..etc,than i am willing to understand that, and realise there may be reasons why certain group are more likely to commit crime,but that is a different question altogether.

blimey the klf.. ive got the feeling this ones gonna run and run...

Come on then KLF, let's here your ideas of the people who are more likely to commit crime... Do you also class people by the shape of their faces and the bumps on their heads too?

Some social groups,some age groups...etc.

Come on,you may want to live in a utopian socialist dreamworld,but we live in the REAL world. As such, a group of youths in hoodies walking down the road are more likely to have drugs or knives on them,than a group of old aged pensioners walking down the other side of the road.I'm not saying that will have those items on them,but they are MORE LIKELY to have, than some other groups of people. FACT!.

If that is unpalatable for you to admit...Tough .
If you feel that certain groups are being victimised because of those facts,than again that is a different question althogether.

just reading giddens the klf. before i start throwing social theories at you i feel i ought to learn to spell some of the bleeding names.

come on then.... im bleeding waiting.

o.k the klf.. trouble is that group og pensioners may not be carrying knives, but they could have been - or still be- paedophiles, pimps, drug traffickers. you may say thats v unlikely but ecen they get old, and as far as im aware, still walk down streets.
i dont go a whole bundle on stats, as i have said, if you go to the right places and gather the right evidence you can "prove" anything.
Also, when identifying groups with more potential for criminal activity, most people only think about "street crime" and associate it with people who are "unemplyed, homeless or of a certain political persuasion". this leaves the "suits" free range to carry out their own criminal activities. also, urglary and theft, two street crime favourites do not just happen in run down, underprivilidged areas" . art galleries, museums, banks, private estates - to burgle these places you would have to acces to money and the right connections! hardly something a young dissenfranchised lad in a hoody is likely to have!
heres a little bluewater scenario for you. a groupf of hooded youths are hanging about outside... all the security guards are focusing their attention on them. meanwhile a group of middleaged middleclass women ... all with id cards go on a merry little five fingered discount spree causing bw to loose thousand of pounds.. tell me how identifying hooded youths as a potenmtial criminal group and id catrds have helped please.

Reckon these'll suddenly be getting bounced through after yesterdays events regardless of usefulness or cost.

That thought has been at the forefront of my mind too Jon.

I have a great deal of trouble conceiving of a system whereby a platic card is going to speed up and secure transport and movement around this country. Think back, for a second, to the last time you were paying for something in a shop using a credit or debit card.

You hand the card over, the assistant swipes it, then asks to to enter your pin, which you do. The pair of you then stand there feeling slightly awkward and not really speaking. Meanwhile, your cards details are checked against the records stored by your cards provider, a few moments later (hopefully) there's a pleasing bing and you can sign or take the little slip and off you go, leaving the small queue, which has formed behind you, to go through the same tedious process. Unless they're paying cash, then it's wham, bam, transaction ma'am.

So, the credit card causes a few small queues. But the information being passed is a small amount of binary data. Just imagine the length of queues for people having their biometric profiles checked out by a computer system, which may, or may not be able to identify everyone, everytime, correctly.

All those people standing around, just like sitting ducks.

After the events of last thursday it should be obvious to anyone that the £5 billion to be spent over the next ten years on ID Cards would be better spent on putting resourses in to the police and security services. £500,000,000 a year could buy some real security and put a lot of coppers on the streets.
ID Cards on the other hand would do very little.
Surely even KLF can't argue with this, we live in a different world now.

Black Cloud

Real security not a false sense of security.

It was the same place the last time I checked... Clouds in the sky, birds, cars, Stupid Ugly Vehicles, yep, the same world.

There are "Islamic" terror cells in operation in the UK, we know that for definite now, we knew that before the London bombings. It was only a matter of time before the bombs started going off here, again.

and i didn't even vote for her.....
Click to view attachment

Just out of interest, does anyone know what Gorgeous George thinks of them?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article303564.ece

Back peddling, seeing sense or yet another change of pupose for the cards?

Black Cloud

I don't need an ID Card I know who I am.

The prospect of ID cards still frightens and horrifies me just as much after the attacks last month as before. And as for the cost, all that money would definately be better spent elsewhere and I'm sure would have a lot better impact. I find real difficulty with why KLF et al are such believers that ID cards will solve a myriad of supposed Ills.

Yes I have nothing to hide - so why do I need a piece of plastic card to prove it?

I signed up for the 'refuse to carry' pledge some time ago. 9,999+ other people did likewise so the pledge was met.

For those not keen on going to jail to protest Tony Blairs move toward National Socialism in all its "glory" there is an alternative.
You can pledge to support those of us who may well end up doing time.

Go to Pledgebank.Com and sign up.

Links can also be found that will help you to lobby your MP to vote against this most blatant attack on our civil liberties.

I wonder how much interest The Fuhrer has shown in this little nugget of technological "advancement".

Implant chip to identify the dead

Apologies if this has been posted earlier or in another thread.

What are we no more or less than our pets now?

If some slime ball isn't whispering into Blairs ear about having the entire population microchipped you can bet Rove has had a word in GW Fucktards shell like.

Martyn, the microchip thing is really setting alot of alarm bells off.....have a look here.....infowars....also have a surf through the site, at first glance you will ask yourself if the guy is sane! But when you read through....really scarey! He asks some interesting questions about 9/11 and the oklahoma city bombing too....
Maybe a crackpot conspiracy theorist? I REALLY hope so! I wouldn't like any of it to be true, but I suspect alot is!

this was the one that caught my eye.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/bb/smart_...atching_you.htm

scary stuff!


i would love to have an embedded chip to replace my house and van keys though

What I reckon is even scarier is the fact that there was a security 'exercise' on the morning of the 7/7, which news of has miraculously disappeared and also a military exercise on the morning of 9/11, which apparently meant that air traffic controllers thought that the airliners disappearing off the radar for 30 something minutes was part of it.....If the site is a conspiracy theorists dream it makes for interesting reading anyway....

These things are already in clothing labels. Have been for ages.

Top tip: Cut the labels out of your stuff and throw them away. Or mail them to T. Blair, 10 Downing Street, London.

Lets be honest. If "they" want to know where you are and what you're doing they'll find you. If you lead a normal, law abiding existense you're "on the radar" and they can keep tabs on you. The very people they have trouble locating are the criminals and the terrorists and the scum of the earth who don't buy into the 21st century zeitgeist but for whom all these security and ID measures are introduced.

You can run drugs from South America, guns to and from anywhere, prostitutes, children and organs from all over the place with impunity and the forces of law and order are hard at work picking you up for haveing a fucking tail light out.

My limited involvement in a campaign to stop the introduction of biometric ID cards is simply an attempt at halting the seemingly inexorable increase in government control over my life.

Leave me alone. Go after the scum of the earth. Oh wait! I forgot!
That'd be yourselves.

Radio 4, last week. Had to turn off the radio as some dipshit politician, a tory I think, was going on about how the cowardly terrorists who brought their war against our way of life to Londons streets were less than human. What sort of people, he asked, would bomb innocent civilans going about their daily bunsiness?

Erm... People like the president of the US and the PM of the UK, you fucking half wit!

Martyn ...

Incidentally, been reading a memo in the RadCom amateur radio mag about how to hi jack inf from ID cards ...

RFID oh Martyn i'm so with you on this one. read about it a year or two ago, how big stores can "track" all your purchases, and it could be used not just as an instore security device but later as marketing data, proof of ownership etc etc. Cue BBC detector van trawling down the road for RFID TV signatures. It's bad enough that we already have personal tracking devices - mobile phones...

Never will I carry an ID card. They'd have to pin me down and bar code my forehead. stuff em!

You wouldn't conform on this issue, so a spell inside would probably result! You have stated that you feel that to be treated like an animal is ok...I hope Martyn gets a jailer with a social conscience that will ensure he is looked after and given plenty of smuggled illicit booze and unlimited internet access. I hope that the redneck hillbilly from Arizona is draughted in..........just to look after you.

if it makes you feel better. At least big brother would be honest with Martyn and me,instead of insidiously tagging and watching everyone else "for their own safety you understand".

Also the youths are more likely to be victims of crime.

Where I come from, we have to carry ID cards with us all the time. But that's not that say that some of us do that all the time.

The ID cards shows a photo of us, our address and (unfortunately) also our religion. It didn't used to but only recently they've imposed that your religion should be stated.

Also, we have a system back home that every person in the country has a unique number, and that would be our ID number and it's written on the card. This ID number is used as a reference for nearly everything. I think in terms of record, it makes things much easier. I notice here when I call in for an appointment in a clinic, they ask for my birthday and address for verification. What if I have a twin that lives in the same address, would this be a problem?

Anyways, the ID card in my country is compulsory for every citizen. If you are not a citizen, then a passport would be the next document they would refer to for identification. If you want to aquire PR, and if granted, they will give you an ID card, but it's of different colour. It works just the same- but only to show that you're not originaly from the country. But if your kids are born there, then she or he can get a national ID card.

It's found that it's put to good use when the coppers are looking out for illegal immigrants. It's not that we have anything against foreigners, but unfortunately the crime rate involving illegal immigrants were rising and they had to put to finally send this people back, and it's done by the truckload! At nights, at the towns where illegal immigrants are known to have settled, the coppers would do road blocks and check for IDs. I guess if you've not done anything wrong, you shouldn't have to be scared. It's just another card in the wallet, and I think it's also useful because when we lose our wallets (and IF it's ever returned) at least our address would be on it. Also when accidents happen, the first thing they do is check the wallet for the ID card so that they know who you are.

There is a big syndicate of forgery which is also quite unfortunate. Some immigrants get really desperate to have their hands on one, and they end up paying a HUGE amount for it, but you don't always get away with it.

When you get your first ID card, you don't have to pay for it. But if you lose it, there would be a penalty, but very very minimal. But of course you need to do a police report etc for it cause it's an official document ,and you dont want someone else going around carrying your ID! Our ID cards are smart-cards now, so you can also store other information like Driving license details, in fact you can even store cash if I am not mistake. NObody really does that because it'll take another few years for the country to be nation-wide ready for this (not all places are able to read this smart card yet).

Well, I just thought I'd share with you how ID card works in my country. Perhaps it's because its been implemented so long ago that I don't really know what it's like to not have it. Carrying it around is a norm, and not having it just feels wrong!

Pinkpony, where are you?

This is VERY interesting.

A country which introduces ID cards, makes them mandatory and then after the passage of time begins to add more info onto the card.
I'm sure we've been told that this "function creep" would not happen.

Do you have to pop your card into a machine prior to voting? *shudder*

I am from Malaysia.

I'm not quite certain since when they imposed that religion should be stated, but I gather the reason is because as a 'Muslim' country, we're governed by both the civic and the syariah law. The syariah law only applies to the Muslims. So, it's more of a disadvantage to the muslims than the non-muslim, in my opinion.

When we vote, or whatever else that we do, more often than not we're required to show our ID. As mentioned before, each person has a unique number, which is shown on the ID card. The number actually is a combination of your birthday, a code of which state you are born in, and then a 4 digit unique number (which if you're a male, it would always end on an odd number, a female- an even number). When you vote, I think they check if you're on the list (cause you have to go to a specific polling station based on where you are registered). I've never voted before so I'm not sure how exactly the run the whole process in the background.

I notice that here, some people are not pleased with having coppers asking them for ID and things like that because people here value the privacy and do not like that concept of 'big brother'. So far I've not heard of any complains back home regarding this, in fact I thing some people take things for granted. The ID card is yours and you are responsible for it. Even when a copper asks for your ID, he should not keep it for a prolonged time and we should be mindful of what they do with it. What they really need actually is just the ID number, I am not comfortable with handing them my ID, usually I will flash it, and let them copy down the number if they need to make reference to the database. We have the right to refuse, but if that will just make things more complicated, we usually just do what they tell us to.

Government in disarray over ID cards, prepares for an onslaught of spin

It’s nice when you are proved right.

http://www.no2id.net/news/oversold.php

the government would do better to make sure people who have paid significant tax bills for many years are able to get the basics of decent treatement out of the joke shop called the nhs rather than wasting more public money on crap like id cards

That is one of the main arguments against ID cards.

Lots of money spent and nothing to show for it.

Another Thatcher legacy :-
Look like you are doing something, whilst achieving nothing

Martyn, i am not doubting you at all but, i don't understand what this RFID stuff is about. i looked at my clothing and don't see anything untoward, what should i be looking for? i don't want any gimps from next or FCUK compiling data on me

ps add me to the list of "will do a stretch before carrying an id card"...

Hey chomskyite_bill!

You may be interested in this article from The Register.

At the end of the article are a whole bunch of links to other RFID related stories and info.
Most uses are benign but the potential for abuse is huge.

Jesus and Mary help us. now that little view of Malaysia has really brought it home.
I'm starting to really believe this government has a concerted policy of stripping away our democratic apparatus,individual liberties and freedom of expression.

What was the bit in revelations about everyone having a unique number stamped upon them? Did it say it was attached to us via a credit card sized piece of plastic??

Careful Bill, according to Mata Socialists aren't allowed to own houses or anything...if she finds out you wear FCUK and NEXT clothing and not Oxfam bought slacks with an Aran wool "Hey Nonny Nonny" Lindisfarne-style sweater and bad haircut then you won't fit into her neat pigeon-hole for Socialists....

Jennie, have a look at www.infowars.com...he talks at great length about ID cards and the lengths he believes that Govts go to in order to push through their Agenda....in fact I watched a documentary of his called 9/11 the road to Tyranny and it is really scary! The maker, Alex Jones wills people to download it from the P2P networks like WINMX etc...it's one of the very few you CAN download without fear of prosecution. He is viewed as a bit of a revolutionary, but he has some very valid and scary points!

Anyway must go..got to roll my new brown corduroy jacket on the pavement, to fray it a bit and get some leather patches sewn on the elbows....Power to the People.

Now the Government is getting nasty:

http://www.politics.co.uk/press-releases/n...36;15048886.htm

So much for freedom of speech and the right to peacfull protest.
It does of course beg the question, why do the government and Home Office not want debate on ID Cards.

Black Cloud

ID Cards, JUST SAY NO.

Because debate and transparency are the enemy of dictators. As much as I hate the tories I find myself looking from man to pig yada yada yada.....

Chomskyite_bill have you been here and signed up?

That's me f*cked then!

Fuck! I've become a fucking stereotype! Shit! I knew it would happen...

First with the real ale, then the comfy clothing with the ethical distribution of funds, then the morris dancing, and now the unshaven small holder thing... Fuck!

If only I was tendy and shopped in big stores the RFID spy chiefs and loyalty card 'gimps' (good turn of phrase that), would know I'm a socialist beardy weirdo...

Ahh, now I've published it on the Internet, I've saved them a whole heap of trouble...

Don't worry Dissident, I'm sure the government will put a special data field on the National Identity Register just for people like you.

Black Cloud

Can't find any indication as to what time this kicks off but...

lets see them make me carry an id card

ill be fighting on the beaches and fighting in the hills first

It says HERE

Good old Stella Rimington - that will really piss them off!

Today (and most likely for a good few days ahead) I are mostly hating the guts of Andy Burnham MP, arsehole, creep and toady who reckons Stella is talking out of her arse.

If the former boss of MI5 doesn't think that ID cards will do much good in the fight agaisnt terrorism whay does he think they're such a bally idea?

What are they for?

(rhetorical question, same one I've been asking since this thread started and to which I've not yet been given a satisfactory answer by any ID card supporter)

BTW...This woman thinks torturing people is OK so I expect she'll be a big supporter of ID cards.



Eliza Manningham-Buller.