If it's really that bad for you, why don't you take your wingeing ass somewhere else?



















Oh, I forgot, you don't like foreigners...


















So you could always be pro-active about getting this 'situation' changed.

Back to topic, ID cards...

OK,

They're not necessary, they're too expensive, just as easilly forgeable as any other form of ID, and I, for one, can't see why anyone thinks they're a particularly good idea.

Cheers, Andy.

You may well be right on most points,but ID cards CANNOT be forged IF the cards are checked against a national database.You could well make up an immitation ID card,but once scanned,it would show up as a fake.

prove it.

not about id cards exactly..just being stopped by the police..
i was stopped coming home one night. pulled over. absoloutley no worries. the officer looked in the car window and his first words were "oh..i can see youre not doing anything wrong" i was a bit dazed and confused and said "i dont understand" he said "i stopped because you just cam from an area which has a high poulation of refugees and assylum seekers. i can see youre not so you can go!"
i said "so u stopped me cos you thought i was an assylum seeker...and you dont see anything wrong with that" "no" he said. "i dont see a problem. if you had just had ur car nicked you would be pleased that we do this".
i had no worries being stopped... if he had said youve just come from a high car crime area . it would have been o.k. it was the automatic assumption that if i had been a refugee the car i was in would have been stolen...and being so bloody blatant about it..
the fact that it was stolen is actually irrelevant

KLF your faith in the system is touching, however.
The manufacturers of the finger print scanner, one of the better ones, used by the US Imigration Service claim a false match rate of 1 in a million. Sounds good untill you realise that this equate to matching you with 40 other people on a data base of 40 million. In practice the false match rate is about 1 in 100,000. Given the systems fail to match rate of 1 in 100 you may not be one of the 40 people identified. And all this depends on the system being able to compare 40 million prints in a reasonable time. Which of course int won't be able to.
So, there is plenty of scope for slipping a fake card through the system.

Black Cloud

I have nothing to hide but my personal privacy.

The government are adamant they they are unfakeable.I agree with them.YOU prove us wrong ?

Geeks and hackers all over the world stand poised to break any code written for national I.D. card technology. I bet before they produce them, they'll be hacked. The black market for faked i.d.'s will commence within 8 hours of release.

It would be cheaper and more efficient to just give people their civil liberties. (insert sarcasm emoticom here)

The government are adamant they they are unfakeable.I agree with them.YOU prove us wrong ?

[/quote]
blimey the klf. u a member of the government then? you proove US wrong.?!
ahhhh..the great divide.. lol

I'm not quite sure how you equate 1 in a million fail,with 1 in 100 fail,but anyway that would just mean that a genuine card would mistakingly be refused.The fake ID wouldn't pass the finger print scanner either.So your arguement would be that genuine card holders would not be recognised ,which is different issue to ID cards being fakeable.

What a load of nonsence.Only the National data base would hold reference codes,that matched biometric ID's,that matched photographs...etc.How could a faker possibly produce a Iris scan and then get it to pass a national data base test?Unless that scan was taken at the point of application and it matches all the codes and cross referencing,it will never be accepted.

Just recently several million Mastercard users had their credit card data hacked. Now who would've believed that could happen ?

It wouldn't of happened if there was a fingerprint scan on the cards .

KLF
There are two possible failure modes. False positive where you are matched with the one or more other people, and false negative where the system fails to recognise you. The manufacturers failure rate for these are 1 in a million and 1 in 100 respectively.
Therefore on a database of 40 million the card would match you to 40 people on each use and be refuse every time since multiple registration is not permitted. Given the higher false negative rate you might not be one of the 40 people recognised. So, for the system to work some procedure would need to be put into place to overcome this problem, and whatever measures were used would also apply to a fake card so long as it contained the biometrics of the holder encoded onto it, irrespective of wether those biometrics were on the system. Therefore a fake card could be used with the system, particularly given that practical failure rate will be higher than those above.
The situation is unlikely to get much better since biometrics change with time and environmental conditions.

Black Cloud

I have nothing to hide but my personal privacy.

Well,i certainly wouldn't buy a fake card that only had a one-in-a-million chance of being accepted,would you ?

If it's really that bad for you, why don't you take your wingeing ass somewhere else?

mmm I'm no more whinging than the people on this forum whinging about hunting, poverty, or any other issue, its just opinion and debate

Oh, I forgot, you don't like foreigners...

my girlfriend is malaysian, my best friends are from jordan and UAE, etc I really do not feel I have to justify myself

So you could always be pro-active about getting this 'situation' changed.

I am as proactive as I can be using democratic debate, given the time I have available

ID cards...

No way will I ever support ID cards for non-criminal UK citizens

nhs

I'd still like to hear the ideas re reducing waiting lists and improving treatment

Pull your neck in mate.I backed you up a few times when you first started posting on here.Just because you disagree with me on some issues ,don't start becoming abusive.

Regarding waiting lists and improving treatment in the NHS. How about reducing the burden on the NHS.Waiting lists and waiting times for operations will obviously increase as the demand for those services increase as the population increases.You can't have it both ways.You want to let in all those that wish to come here (a noble and charitable if somewhat naive mindset),but then you moan when too much strain is put on services such as hospitals ,schools,and the transport system.

the abuse you are talking about was aimed at me, i forget to say re and add quotes

so sorry for that

Re "You want to let in all those that wish to come her"

here... not me i have never said this, i am all for a controlled and fair immigration policy

everyone i know has good reason to "moan" about the poor service from the nhs, lots of contructive ideas for improvement also, its not all negative whinges

klf - when you said "letting in all of those who wish to come here" i wonder if you are including refugees and assylum seekers? as someone who comes on this forum i am assuming you know the sort of conditions they are fleeing from! but are you actaually aware of assulum and refugee policy?
on arrival in this country they are classed as assylum seekers".
you mentioned 3 "burdens" on hospitals, schools and the transport system (oops. u forgot housing).
so - hospitals. would yoy really deny treatment to people running from torture, war and starvation? instead of blaming an over stretched nhs on assylum seekers - y not put the blame where it really lays with the central government basically privatising hospitals and fecking trust managers whose main purpose seem to be manipulating figures!
schools - do you not believe education is a right and not a privilidge based on geography, class, ethnicity, gender, religion or sexuality!
the transport system - let me assure you assylum seekers and refugees have to pay for their train and bus tickets the same as everyone else!
if the profit the transport companies made were poloughed back int the companies, and improving the roads and railway systems public transport would not be such a mess! so again, place the blame where it shopuld be.
Once an application for assylum has been approved, they then have refugee status. they have to apply for benefit the same as everyone else and are subjected to the same conditions. they lose their temporary housing and have to pay national insurance and get a job. Full citizens then, paying taxes same as everyone else. contributing to the system.
Why then should they not be as entitled to education and healthcare!
so please explain why then refugees and assylum seekers are responsible for over stretched resources? i just dont understand!
ever heard of tony bliar or maggie thatcher?!!!

are they like the WMD's then


fuckin' 'ell

oh sorry, i forgot.. y should they not go for a ride on a train or bus with their hard earned wages

I've explained what effect an ever increasing population has on public services.Now you explain to me where you will build the 1 million new homes we will need in the next 8-10 years.The thousands of miles of new roads and rail tracks,trains.The hundreds of new schools and the hundreds of new hospitals.I won't even ask you how we will pay for all of this.Just explain to me where we are going to put them.

PS...I've no problem with accepting genuine refugees.I find it unacceptable that there are 1/2 a million FAILED asylum seekers currently residing in Britain, AND that there are 3/4 of a million constantly going very slowly through asylum proccessing whilst residing in Britain. I also disaprove of the letting in of a million East European economic migrants each year.I was talking to a Polish lad yesterday,and he reckons his homeland is on it arse economically,mainly because all its work infrastructure has collasped because a high percentage of the young semi-skilled male workforce have emmigrated to Britain over the last 10 months.

Didn't we find the biggest weapon of mass destruction in Iraq ?

SADDAM HUSSEIN

it is true that immigration is out of control, but it is also true that there should be fair entry and appropariate support for many including genuine refugees

but core services such as health are not capable of looking after the folk already here

here we go wasting X millions trying to attract the olympics and the london infrastructure hospitals, tubes etc etc cannot cope already, its a real shame they dont sort out the basics of the health service, for instance, before wasting more money on the olympics in the dome style of this shambolic government

? not me!


incidentally, the biggest wmd in iraq is the coalition force

A card a system, unforgeable, wow! Holy smoke they've found the holy fuckin grail!

Tinman, can you please take your NHS related gripe to the NHS related gripe thread.

________________________________________________________________

KLF, You really don't understand do you.
A with a data base of 40 million any card fake or real would produce 40 false matches and therfore all cards would be rejected. Any system put in place to overcome this would also make a fake card acceptable. Remember, given the fail to match rate a correct match would not necessarily be amongs the 40 matches.

Black Cloud

I have nothing to hide but my personal privacy.

Yeah,come to think of it.I've never had you down as 'one of us'. More a 'one of them'.

why would a system put in place to overcome this, cause fakes to be accepted ? As far as i can see there is only a one-in-a-million chance of a genuine card being rejected and a one-in-a-million chance of a fake card being accepted.

tthe klf - have you ever heard of the concept of "one world? socialism withoput boundaries?"
maybe you should start a " its your own fault you were born in a country this is disadvantaged, so suffer the consequences" thread
and as for alternative soloutions? thats not my responsibility! just because i have dont have the skills or knowledge to implement a vialble soloution does not mean i have to agree with the system we have got. neither does it mean i should not have an opinion.

and as for you 1/2 million failed assylum seekers?
let me explain to you how it works...
the failed assylum seekers lose EVERYTHING. they get no benefits, they lose their accomodation. those "lucky " enough to be granted status lose their temporary accomodation and have to apply for private or public housing the same as everyone else. they also have to pay rent like everyone else. they have to apply for benefits, find employment and pay tax and ni.
so, for the 1/2 million failed as this means disappearing. they end up losing any support networks thet mave have built up and if they do manage to work it will be in sweatshops, in appauling conditions without the support of a union, family or friends. nice huh?
lots of them are from iraq. a whole different story.. cos of the presence of bushes boys, iraq is no longer considered a dangerous country so the vast majority of applications are refused. but it is still a no flyzone so there is no way for people to get back. they end up being shipped off to dispersal centres that could be anywhere in the country. again, losing their support network! in these centres, religious festivals are not observed, making it esopecially difficult at ramadam - and they have to "clock in and out". As soon as the nofly zone is lifted they are then recalled and sent home.
sent home to what?!!!
just because some wanker in a suit has decided they are not at risk of torture or persecution does not mean they are not!!!!

KLF, you are missing the point.
Every time a card, genuine or fake, was used it would identify 40 people having your finger prints. Since multiple registration is not permitted every card would be rejected every time, ie, the system would not work. There are two ways around this. 1) Accept the card if its 'on chip' biometrics matched that of the holder or 2) Reject the card an refuse a service, eg access to a Doctor, pending an investigation. Option 2 would be generally un acceptable, and very very expensive and option 1 would alow the cards to be easily faked.
A third alternative would be to accept the card only if the holder is one of the 40 people identified. This of course would make it virtually impossible to prevent multiple registration thus making it possible to create multiple false identities for yourself. So you could get a fake card from the Government, rather than a bloke in the pub.

Black Cloud

I have nothing to hide but my personal privacy.

I think you clutching at straws.Take your third (and probably most viable alternative).Are these fakers going to invent a name out of the air.Or are they going to claim to be someone else on the electorial register? If so,they are going to have to know every detail about that person,hope that that person hasn't already registered (which is unlikely).The faker would also have to be unregistered themselves because any duplitcate application would be easy to spot and the faker would have to have his biometric and photo on the card (would a faker really want to hand that over to everyone all the time,knowing it could be withheld and used to identify him/her.Anyway,i've said before that any possible faking would only be possible at the time of the the original biometric /photo application process.I don't believe you have produced a viable way of forgery after that time.

So you still insist we should welcome everyone who wants to settle here,even though you have no idea how our infrastucture is going to cope.

re "but it is still a no flyzone so there is no way for people to get back"

its easy to get into iraq as a civillian you can fly to jordan and take a bus across the border

even without id cards the poorly designed it systems being put in place by the current government totally undermine any privacy you may think you have

for instance the national programme for it in the nhs will allow any doctor anywhere to view any record for anyone in the country, and it only takes a few doctors to choose easy to guess passwords and it will be open to anyone

The Shift Key is the one on the bottom left corner just above the Ctrl Key. It's really quite useful.

And if you can't/won't use the quote function please don't attempt to quote.

Thankyou.

KLF you stil don't get it do you.
Because every time any card was used it would produce 40 false matches, by default, multiple registration would be possible. So all you have to do is register again with a ficticious name. Because of all the false matches would not be able to tell if you were already on the system.
In practice of course the 40 false matches is more likely to be in the order of 400, such was the experience of the US Imigration Service, thus multiple registration would be that much more difficult to detect.

Black Cloud

I have nothing to hide except my personal privacy.

in that csae tinman please tell me why iraqi as are being "dispersed" instead of deported?
it would afterall be a lot cheaper and reduce the "stats". saving money and making the govt look good into the bargain.
tis nothing to do with bueaurocracy - once "failed"the govt has the right of immidiate deportation. so y then?!!!

cos blairs advisors have no clue would be my first guess

ta v much bt. still havnt quite got the hang of this.

really? u reckon its really that simple? cos blairs trained, educated, specialised advisors "have no clue" a simple plane and bus ride is denied? come now!!!

and if id cards become compulsary all it will do is the give police even more "justification" to stop people in the street. Even though they may have guide lines, there has to be an initial identification. If the guide line is "keep it random, nothing is ever truely random and each individual officer will have their own prejudices.
so where will they start? skin colur? age? gender? hair style? style of dress?
i somehow suspect a middle aged person wearing s uit is a bit less likely to be asked to produce than a younger person with purple hair wearing combats!
the comparrisons are endless that one just popped into my head. and no i dont have purple hair - this week

re "cos blairs trained, educated, specialised advisors"

i have not laughed so loud for a long time

i can tell you have not met any of these people

The police are not stupid.They play percentages.They stop people who are statistically more likely to have committed ,or are about to, commit a crime.Its stereotyping for sure,but those stereotypes are there for a reason.I would have no problem with the police stopping me and asking for my ID card.I drive to work in the middle of the night.I have been stopped 5 or 6 times by the police in the last few years.They politely ask me where i'm going,inspect my tax disk etc.No problem.It gives me a feeling that they are actually out their trying to stop crime.

But a low key scanner (say in a police car or shop) may possibly find 40 matches that are simular,the actual National records database would have no trouble in matching prints and ruling out duplicate applications.The police fingerprint system currently find numorous 'possible matches' and then uses a different program to narrow it down to a single match.

is that above or below the control key

what the 'ell is going on with those multiple quotes

KLF, the scanner I am using as an example is the one used by the US Imigration Service and is one of the better ones on the market. It will still produce 40 false positives. Our system, should it come about, will be built by the lowest tenderer and in all possibility be much worse.

Black Cloud

I have nothing to hide but my personal privacy.

tin man maybe i have and maybe thats exactly my point. !
believe me if it was atall possible to send the "failed" as home, they would!!!

The police are not stupid.They play percentages.They stop people who are statistically more likely to have committed ,or are about to, commit a crime.Its stereotyping for sure,but those stereotypes are there for a reason.I would have no problem with the police stopping me and asking for my ID card.I drive to work in the middle of the night.I have been stopped 5 or 6 times by the police in the last few years.They politely ask me where i'm going,inspect my tax disk etc.No problem.It gives me a feeling that they are actually out their trying to stop crime.

[/quote]
really the klf? are they not?
let me tell you about statistics.. you can prove absloutley anything you want to if you gather the right evidence! it does not mena that the stats are actually a true representation!
and sterotypes? trouble is it ends up being a self fullfilling prophecy. if you target those you think are more likely to commit crimes, then all the rest go undiscovered! doesnt mean the white clean middle classes aint criminals- they just dont get caught!
stereotypes are there for a reason? oh please the klf dont tell me that you think there are certain types of people who are more likely to commit crime? if you do youre getting into vvv dodgy waters. im assuming as you said stereotypes are there for a reason, and their are certain grou[ps more likely to be stopped, you are saying that black, gay, younger, "scruffy" unemployed, homeless (this is just a jumble of examples) are more likely to be criminals?
if you are, are you saying that being disadvantaged and/or a member of a minority group predispences people to criminal activity?
what about whitecollar crime.!!! everyone forgets about that when talking of crimianal activity. or the drug or porn rings run bymiddleclass business men!!!
so if you think that id cards are going to reduce crime.. tis not. all will do is exasserbate analready selffullfilling prophecy and will jutify further presecution of minority and disadvantaged sectors of society.!