klf mate you are wrong on this one
id cards are only on the political adgenda because the consultancies standing to make a raket from the associated projects are and have been for several years heavily sponsoring political lobbying
while i have some sympathy that any non british citizen should be required to carry their passport at all times, as we are when we are abroad in most countries, i am absolutely certain that free englishmen (to use king johns words) or as it would be now british citizens of any type will never give in to routine id cards
unless their is a major war or some such, then i just dont think the ordinary folk will put up with it
the police and security services already have lots of powers to use to tackle crime, but seem to spend most of their energy on politically correct namby pamby stuff, instead of nicking the villans, way too much energy on anti motorist measures, and the criminal justice system is a joke you would be surprized how serious an offence you can get away with and be let back on the streets straight away
they best way to tackle crime is to spend more time with the young up and coming and potential criminals and help them make a better way in the world, and if they do something wrong be strong with them, dont let them commit progressively worse crime all being dealt with leinently until the do something major and get banged up, hit them hard and early but with positive role models and other help
i can tell you there is no way no how i will ever routinely carry an id card in this country, there are lots of people who have died to keep us free, and im not prepared to let some incompotent jerks take that away
any decent bobby could spell out some simple policy changes that would radically cut down on crime and terrorism, sadly the liberal nutters wont have it
hammering the honest hard working again and again is not a solution
do we really think an organised terrorist will not be able to forge an id card, of course they will
and as for giving access to the nhs and other free services, most london hospitals are already clogged up with foreign nationals who have paid the square root of nothing in uk taxes, if they really wanted to tackle abuse it would be easy
if there is spare money in the national coffers i strongly suggest spending it on a reformed health service where you and i have a half decent chance of being treated, unlike the shambles there now, and improving the equally shambolic education system that every labour politician abuses to make sure their own precious darlings dont end up in the crap comphrensive the rest of us have to send our kids to
id card no way, cut back on cameras, spend more on real policing, enhance the freedom of the law abiding, and target the people not playing by the rules
Full Version: I.d Cards
Re " So, KLF, ID cards are there to stop people who need treatment getting it, if they aren'f from round here.
NICE ONE! we can get rid of the 'illegals; by letting them die! "
I doubt klf or anyone would want to stop hospital treatment for anyone in imminent life threatening danger, but the uk nhs is routinely taken for a ride, I for instance know of some citizens of the USA and Australia who have had kids in maternity wards here, never even been asked where they are from, what their NI number is, and of course if we were to use a maternity ward in their home countries you can be pretty sure we would get charged, and I'm talking about people who could have very well paid a reasonable hospital bill
to say nothing of the may people in the country for no other reason than to sponge off the nhs
now I sympathise with some of their plights, but many of them have the money to pay, and my sympathies at the moment are much more with my own close friends and family who have paid significant amounts into the nhs who are now left high and dry with no access to decent treatment
the balance is wrong im afraid
Re "had been stopped by the police 3 times in the last 5 days, for nothing." hey you spent much time in Brixton recently? you see the open sale of stolen credit cards going on in the bars and burger joints? you know that lots of people are carrying firearms there? you know about the routine violent street fights? wow give the brave coppers brave enough to step foot in Brixton a little slack, I should think stopping a few innocent people is the last thing they should be worrying about
NICE ONE! we can get rid of the 'illegals; by letting them die! "
I doubt klf or anyone would want to stop hospital treatment for anyone in imminent life threatening danger, but the uk nhs is routinely taken for a ride, I for instance know of some citizens of the USA and Australia who have had kids in maternity wards here, never even been asked where they are from, what their NI number is, and of course if we were to use a maternity ward in their home countries you can be pretty sure we would get charged, and I'm talking about people who could have very well paid a reasonable hospital bill
to say nothing of the may people in the country for no other reason than to sponge off the nhs
now I sympathise with some of their plights, but many of them have the money to pay, and my sympathies at the moment are much more with my own close friends and family who have paid significant amounts into the nhs who are now left high and dry with no access to decent treatment
the balance is wrong im afraid
Re "had been stopped by the police 3 times in the last 5 days, for nothing." hey you spent much time in Brixton recently? you see the open sale of stolen credit cards going on in the bars and burger joints? you know that lots of people are carrying firearms there? you know about the routine violent street fights? wow give the brave coppers brave enough to step foot in Brixton a little slack, I should think stopping a few innocent people is the last thing they should be worrying about
I see that public support for ID Cards has dropped to 55% since Christmas and the Conservatives are now refering to them as the 'Plastic Pole Tax'.
Perhaps people are starting to realise just how intrusive and expensive these cards are going to be.
Black Cloud
I don't have an ID Card because I am British.
Perhaps people are starting to realise just how intrusive and expensive these cards are going to be.
Black Cloud
I don't have an ID Card because I am British.
Have a look at the links below they make a bit of a mockery of the infalable Biometrics claims from the Home Office and Charles Clarke.
http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_...xml?language=en
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ew/200...80200050100.htm
http://www.puttyworld.com/thinputdeffi.html
http://cryptome.org/fake-prints.htm
Doubtless there will soom be methods available to fake iris scans as well
Black Cloud
I am not a criminal so I don't need an ID Card
http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_...xml?language=en
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ew/200...80200050100.htm
http://www.puttyworld.com/thinputdeffi.html
http://cryptome.org/fake-prints.htm
Doubtless there will soom be methods available to fake iris scans as well
Black Cloud
I am not a criminal so I don't need an ID Card
Tony Benn had this to say on the subject recently...
Tony Benn's latest book is Free Radical.
Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited
Aslo note that the latest debate on ID cards is to be the first on the to-do list for parliament after the Trafalgar celebrations in the south west. New Labour clearly hoping, and with good reason, that a whole bunch of 'not really very fussed about ID cards one way or another' will be a tad tardy hauling their lazy arses back to Westminster for the vote. Hope I'm wrong about this.
Also note that with the introduction of satellite tracked road pricing the governement will know who you are and where you are, or at least where your car is parked 24/7/365.
Big Brother really is watching you.
And his name is Tony.
Adolf, Josef, Pol and Mao would have given their eye teeth for this technology.
Isn't it great that its not in the hands of lying, murdering war mongers?
QUOTE
In the name of security
Tony Benn
Wednesday June 22 2005
The Guardian
Since the attack on the twin towers, in which many innocent Americans were killed, we have been told that we are engaged in a war against terrorism that threatens our way of life and our liberties. From that moment on we have been asked to adopt a whole range of measures that pose what many believe could be a greater threat to those very liberties and to our way of life.
That fact obliges us to examine them, one by one, as a part of the whole, lest we slip into an acceptance of a situation where we can be seen as acquiescing to restrictions on our political and personal freedoms that would have been unthinkable a few years ago.
For example, the forthcoming debate in the House of Commons on identity cards is motivated by a determination on the part of the government to set up a massive database incorporating everything that is known about us all. It integrates our personal particulars with police and security service files that may or may not be accurate, some of which we may never be allowed to know. It is that which makes it all look so like an embryonic police state.
Much of the argument may rotate around the cost incurred or the reliability of biometric testing but, important as they are, the danger lies in the accumulation, storage and use that may be made of this information.
For example, under the arrangements that Britain has with the US that allow us access to their nuclear technology in the Trident programme, America has long insisted that it should have access to all our intelligence material. That means the ID database will be automatically available to it.
Given the number of leaks that occur and the value of the database, the possibility that it could fall into the hands of others for their private commercial purposes cannot be ruled out - with all the opportunities for abuse that would make possible.
I have retained all my wartime ID cards with my name, address and photo but none of these posed any threat of the nature set out above.
In addition, we now have the latest anti-terrorist legislation, which permits house arrest and detention without a jury trial - eroding principles going back to the Magna Carta.
Security has reached such a pitch that constituents who visit the Commons, now policed by men with machine guns, can only observe those whom they have elected through a transparent bullet proof screen, which only emphasises the widening gap between government and governed.
The prime minister himself moves within a cocoon of highly armed guards, whereas Harold Wilson had a single officer from the Met with a revolver in his pocket. Even when Mrs Thatcher was nearly blown up in Brighton no such stringent measures were proposed.
Next comes the Serious Crime and Disorder Act, under which the home secretary has been authorised to declare an exclusion zone around the Commons. This will silence - and could imprison - Brian Haw, who, far from being guilty of serious crime or disorder, has been preaching peace in Parliament Square and denouncing the war that has killed far more innocent Iraqis than the number of people who died on 9/11.
The Statue of Liberty has been replaced by Guantanamo Bay, and our main ally in the coalition that invaded Iraq now sends detainees to countries that practise torture and feels able to justify it. Soon we are to be told that to defend ourselves the Trident programme is to be updated at a cost that, Michael Portillo argues, could exceed the increase in aid that Britain may pledge at the G8 summit - though how nuclear weapons could deal with Osama bin Laden is far from clear.
At the Labour conference, delegates not only have to go through tight security but are also required to open their briefcases before they enter the conference hall, to make sure they are not carrying socialist literature.
The Commons does not elect our commissioner in Brussels and we are only allowed to vote for a party list in the European elections, leaving the prime minister to select all the Labour MEPs just as he chooses all the members of the House of Lords. This explains what Peter Mandelson meant when he said years ago that "the era of representative government is coming to an end".
In 1834, when the Commons burned down, crowds stood on the other side of the Thames and cheered because they had lost confidence in it. If that ever happened again, the responsibility would lie with those ministers and MPs who are undermining democracy in the name of security and using fear to push it through.
Tony Benn
Wednesday June 22 2005
The Guardian
Since the attack on the twin towers, in which many innocent Americans were killed, we have been told that we are engaged in a war against terrorism that threatens our way of life and our liberties. From that moment on we have been asked to adopt a whole range of measures that pose what many believe could be a greater threat to those very liberties and to our way of life.
That fact obliges us to examine them, one by one, as a part of the whole, lest we slip into an acceptance of a situation where we can be seen as acquiescing to restrictions on our political and personal freedoms that would have been unthinkable a few years ago.
For example, the forthcoming debate in the House of Commons on identity cards is motivated by a determination on the part of the government to set up a massive database incorporating everything that is known about us all. It integrates our personal particulars with police and security service files that may or may not be accurate, some of which we may never be allowed to know. It is that which makes it all look so like an embryonic police state.
Much of the argument may rotate around the cost incurred or the reliability of biometric testing but, important as they are, the danger lies in the accumulation, storage and use that may be made of this information.
For example, under the arrangements that Britain has with the US that allow us access to their nuclear technology in the Trident programme, America has long insisted that it should have access to all our intelligence material. That means the ID database will be automatically available to it.
Given the number of leaks that occur and the value of the database, the possibility that it could fall into the hands of others for their private commercial purposes cannot be ruled out - with all the opportunities for abuse that would make possible.
I have retained all my wartime ID cards with my name, address and photo but none of these posed any threat of the nature set out above.
In addition, we now have the latest anti-terrorist legislation, which permits house arrest and detention without a jury trial - eroding principles going back to the Magna Carta.
Security has reached such a pitch that constituents who visit the Commons, now policed by men with machine guns, can only observe those whom they have elected through a transparent bullet proof screen, which only emphasises the widening gap between government and governed.
The prime minister himself moves within a cocoon of highly armed guards, whereas Harold Wilson had a single officer from the Met with a revolver in his pocket. Even when Mrs Thatcher was nearly blown up in Brighton no such stringent measures were proposed.
Next comes the Serious Crime and Disorder Act, under which the home secretary has been authorised to declare an exclusion zone around the Commons. This will silence - and could imprison - Brian Haw, who, far from being guilty of serious crime or disorder, has been preaching peace in Parliament Square and denouncing the war that has killed far more innocent Iraqis than the number of people who died on 9/11.
The Statue of Liberty has been replaced by Guantanamo Bay, and our main ally in the coalition that invaded Iraq now sends detainees to countries that practise torture and feels able to justify it. Soon we are to be told that to defend ourselves the Trident programme is to be updated at a cost that, Michael Portillo argues, could exceed the increase in aid that Britain may pledge at the G8 summit - though how nuclear weapons could deal with Osama bin Laden is far from clear.
At the Labour conference, delegates not only have to go through tight security but are also required to open their briefcases before they enter the conference hall, to make sure they are not carrying socialist literature.
The Commons does not elect our commissioner in Brussels and we are only allowed to vote for a party list in the European elections, leaving the prime minister to select all the Labour MEPs just as he chooses all the members of the House of Lords. This explains what Peter Mandelson meant when he said years ago that "the era of representative government is coming to an end".
In 1834, when the Commons burned down, crowds stood on the other side of the Thames and cheered because they had lost confidence in it. If that ever happened again, the responsibility would lie with those ministers and MPs who are undermining democracy in the name of security and using fear to push it through.
Tony Benn's latest book is Free Radical.
Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited
Aslo note that the latest debate on ID cards is to be the first on the to-do list for parliament after the Trafalgar celebrations in the south west. New Labour clearly hoping, and with good reason, that a whole bunch of 'not really very fussed about ID cards one way or another' will be a tad tardy hauling their lazy arses back to Westminster for the vote. Hope I'm wrong about this.
Also note that with the introduction of satellite tracked road pricing the governement will know who you are and where you are, or at least where your car is parked 24/7/365.
Big Brother really is watching you.
And his name is Tony.
Adolf, Josef, Pol and Mao would have given their eye teeth for this technology.
Isn't it great that its not in the hands of lying, murdering war mongers?
QUOTE
Home Secretary Charles Clarke has told MPs that ID cards will help counter not create a "Big Brother" society.
The cards would allow people to show who they were using one secure piece of identification rather than the multiple forms of ID proof now needed.
The cards would allow people to show who they were using one secure piece of identification rather than the multiple forms of ID proof now needed.
That's right Charles. They would.
But why would I want some spotty herbert in a building society to know that I was once arrested for something or that I had no testicles or that I was a fully paid up member of the BNP? That last would be pretty tricky for me if I was hoping to get that loan and the spotty herbert's parents were Jamaican or Pakistani.
How would we know what was on the card?
Even if we were shown a screen purporting to display the contents of the chip how would we know that the info had not been edited for our viewing?
Clarke would not admit nor concede to Jim Naughtie, that the only way for these things to work even remotely as invisaged would be for them to be compulsory.
This is why comments like this...
QUOTE
Yes I fully support ID Cards. I do think the cost is high but I see no reason for not having them. The people who say it's against our rights and freedom are crazy, we are on a data base somewhere and people can find out any thing about us already. A card would be a great way of proving our legal nationality.
... make my blood boil.
How fucking thick can some people be?
When asked for ID I get to choose what info I impart.
Address, DOB, gender, current salary etc etc.
I am still to some degree in control of what information about me gets passed to someone who can look me in the eye and make a decision about what will or will not happen next.
With Blair's biometric ID card I am to all intents and purposes under arrest.
Permanently.
Clarke aslo told Naughtie that the Police will not be alowed to simply stop nad ask to see the ID.
So, once again for the umpteeth time, what is it for?
Of course anybody who believes that after compulsory possesion the next step won't be compulsion to produce on demand is a cretin.
QUOTE
Mr Davis, for the Conservatives, said "If, ten years ago, I had gone on the radio and said that within a decade a Labour government would try to do away with jury trial, remove Habeas Corpus, eliminate the presumption of innocence, introduce punishment without trial, and put house arrest on the statute book, they would have locked me up."
Mr Davis said a future Tory government would repeal the legislation if it makes it on to the statute book.
Mr Davis said a future Tory government would repeal the legislation if it makes it on to the statute book.
Mr Davis has been earwigging while I rant about Bliar.
If I didn't think that he'd be in charge of an equally odious administration I'd be voting Tory at the next election.
Thatcher was just the vanguard.
National Socialism, Naziism is here, now and Blair is the Fuhrer.
And in case anybody is thinking that this old fool has gone too far yet again, Hitler was a monster persecuting minorities and sending people to their deaths for political and ideological reasons. Now ponder for a moment on the home office pronouncements on asylum seekers from Zimbabwe.
Totally paranoid.Why bring Hitler into nearly every conversation?? The time you should have mentioned him, was when you introduced Zimbabwe into the conversation. Instead of digging your own country for daring to try to send someone back to Zimbabwe,you shoud be condeming the Zimbabwe regime for making people want to flee for their lives.Or how about criticizing the weekness of the African nations for standing by and watching Mugabes atrocities without lifting a finger to interveen. Thats who you should be condeming.
Regarding ID cards.I'll state again.They will only be effective if everyone has to have one,and the police have the power to request them.Otherwise ,i don't get the point either.Also, Biometrics will be widespead by the end of the decade.Computers,cash machines,Credit card transactions...etc,and within the next year or two, ALL new British passports will have a biometric tags, as will passports from most other nations.
PS.If you have ever purchased anything by credit card on-line.You will have given out much more personal information about yourself, than will probably ever be contained in an ID card.
I don't have you on ignore KLF and read everything you write, almost.
I did you nitwit.
Look!
If I want to criticise African countries, Thabo Mvuyelwa Mbeki or Mugabe I'll do it elswhere. Maybe start another thread.
Oh wait! Mugabe is a monster. There. That do you?
I linked Hitler and Blair and used the British governments treatment of Zimbabwean nationals to illustrate why I feel that Blair is behaving no better than a fascist dictator.
What a complete load of absolute bollocks.
That comment is why I've not responded to anything you've posted for almost, maybe more than, a year.
You're an idiot.
In which universe does my credit card bear my medical and criminal records?
Had you said "used your Tesco clubcard" you might have had a point. Tesco know more about my eating habits than anybody else.
QUOTE
The time you should have mentioned him, was when you introduced Zimbabwe into the conversation.
I did you nitwit.
Look!
QUOTE
National Socialism, Naziism is here, now and Blair is the Fuhrer.
And in case anybody is thinking that this old fool has gone too far yet again, Hitler was a monster persecuting minorities and sending people to their deaths for political and ideological reasons. Now ponder for a moment on the home office pronouncements on asylum seekers from Zimbabwe.
And in case anybody is thinking that this old fool has gone too far yet again, Hitler was a monster persecuting minorities and sending people to their deaths for political and ideological reasons. Now ponder for a moment on the home office pronouncements on asylum seekers from Zimbabwe.
If I want to criticise African countries, Thabo Mvuyelwa Mbeki or Mugabe I'll do it elswhere. Maybe start another thread.
Oh wait! Mugabe is a monster. There. That do you?
I linked Hitler and Blair and used the British governments treatment of Zimbabwean nationals to illustrate why I feel that Blair is behaving no better than a fascist dictator.
QUOTE
If you have ever purchased anything by credit card on-line.You will have given out much more personal information about yourself, than will probably ever be contained in an ID card.
What a complete load of absolute bollocks.
That comment is why I've not responded to anything you've posted for almost, maybe more than, a year.
You're an idiot.
In which universe does my credit card bear my medical and criminal records?
Had you said "used your Tesco clubcard" you might have had a point. Tesco know more about my eating habits than anybody else.
You Nitwit ! Where have the government ever said that an ID card would ever hold medical or criminal records on it ?? Its a figment of your creative imagination.
Regarding Mugabe.I apologise.I didn't spot the reference in your post,the first time i read it.
PS. How the HGV driving lately,are you finding yourself out on the road for longer and longer each day...I am.
Regarding Mugabe.I apologise.I didn't spot the reference in your post,the first time i read it.
PS. How the HGV driving lately,are you finding yourself out on the road for longer and longer each day...I am.
QUOTE(Martyn @ Jun 25 2005, 05:02 PM)
Tony Benn had this to say on the subject recently...
QUOTE
In the name of security
Tony Benn
Wednesday June 22 2005
The Guardian
At the Labour conference, delegates not only have to go through tight security but are also required to open their briefcases before they enter the conference hall, to make sure they are not carrying socialist literature.
Tony Benn
Wednesday June 22 2005
The Guardian
At the Labour conference, delegates not only have to go through tight security but are also required to open their briefcases before they enter the conference hall, to make sure they are not carrying socialist literature.
Sorry, I know it's off topic but, dear Lord! That passed me by...
I love Tony Benn
QUOTE
How the HGV driving lately,are you finding yourself out on the road for longer and longer each day...
Yes.
And it's all our fault apparently.
It was us who decided that trucks should be limited electronically to 56 mph and also us that force car drivers to slow down and go very very carefully when overtaking trucks.
*shakes head and wanders off making no apology for being off topic*
Back on topic, there's a pledge at PledgeBank about this that some of you might be interested in signing up to, if you haven't already done so.
Edited to correct link
Edited to correct link
I just pledged and emailed Julie (Kirkbride) my MP.
Not that it'll do much good now.
Ministers have won a Commons vote over their controversial ID cards plan but their majority was cut from 67 to 31.
Tories, Lib Dems and 20 rebel Labour MPs are thought to have voted against the bill's second reading.
More HERE!
Not that it'll do much good now.
Ministers have won a Commons vote over their controversial ID cards plan but their majority was cut from 67 to 31.
Tories, Lib Dems and 20 rebel Labour MPs are thought to have voted against the bill's second reading.
More HERE!
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 28 2005, 06:35 PM)
Totally paranoid.Why bring Hitler into nearly every conversation?? The time you should have mentioned him, was when you introduced Zimbabwe into the conversation. Instead of digging your own country for daring to try to send someone back to Zimbabwe,you shoud be condeming the Zimbabwe regime for making people want to flee for their lives.Or how about criticizing the weekness of the African nations for standing by and watching Mugabes atrocities without lifting a finger to interveen. Thats who you should be condeming.
Regarding ID cards.I'll state again.They will only be effective if everyone has to have one,and the police have the power to request them.Otherwise ,i don't get the point either.Also, Biometrics will be widespead by the end of the decade.Computers,cash machines,Credit card transactions...etc,and within the next year or two, ALL new British passports will have a biometric tags, as will passports from most other nations.
PS.If you have ever purchased anything by credit card on-line.You will have given out much more personal information about yourself, than will probably ever be contained in an ID card.
KLF come on.
Biometrics are at best 99% accurate and unlikely to get any better since finger prints and irises alter with age and, in the case of finger prints with atmospheric conditions. Try reading the links on my previous post about how easy it is to fake a finger print. I could do it.
As for on line credit card purchase I don't remember having to give my:
Name
Address
DoB
The address of every other residence here and aboroad
Every other name I have been known by
Every other address I've had
My national Identity number (OK havn't got one YET)
NHS Number
NI Number
Pasport Number
Driving Licence Number
Residential status
All of which will be required for the your government file on the National Identity Register. There are more but I couldn't be bother to type them all.
Black Cloud
I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know.
How dare the government put something into place that is only 99% effective.Would your arguement be to never sell condoms because they are only 99% effective. 
Counter to claims from various rogue anti-ID websites .It is vertually impossible to fake the proposed ID card.Please tell me how you could produce a fake ID.All prints and iris scans would happen at the same time as your photo being taken,with all relevent imformation being stored on the database at that time also.Please tell me how you think one could be faked,i'm genuinely interested to know.
I think that making the ID secure and producing them for a resonable price is totally realistic.I'm more concerned that the money and technology will all be wasted unless the government make ID cards effective,by making it compulsory to have one,AND allowing the police to ask people to produce a card on request.
Counter to claims from various rogue anti-ID websites .It is vertually impossible to fake the proposed ID card.Please tell me how you could produce a fake ID.All prints and iris scans would happen at the same time as your photo being taken,with all relevent imformation being stored on the database at that time also.Please tell me how you think one could be faked,i'm genuinely interested to know.
I think that making the ID secure and producing them for a resonable price is totally realistic.I'm more concerned that the money and technology will all be wasted unless the government make ID cards effective,by making it compulsory to have one,AND allowing the police to ask people to produce a card on request.
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Jun 29 2005, 07:38 AM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 28 2005, 06:35 PM)
Totally paranoid.Why bring Hitler into nearly every conversation?? The time you should have mentioned him, was when you introduced Zimbabwe into the conversation. Instead of digging your own country for daring to try to send someone back to Zimbabwe,you shoud be condeming the Zimbabwe regime for making people want to flee for their lives.Or how about criticizing the weekness of the African nations for standing by and watching Mugabes atrocities without lifting a finger to interveen. Thats who you should be condeming.
Regarding ID cards.I'll state again.They will only be effective if everyone has to have one,and the police have the power to request them.Otherwise ,i don't get the point either.Also, Biometrics will be widespead by the end of the decade.Computers,cash machines,Credit card transactions...etc,and within the next year or two, ALL new British passports will have a biometric tags, as will passports from most other nations.
PS.If you have ever purchased anything by credit card on-line.You will have given out much more personal information about yourself, than will probably ever be contained in an ID card.
KLF come on.
Biometrics are at best 99% accurate and unlikely to get any better since finger prints and irises alter with age and, in the case of finger prints with atmospheric conditions. Try reading the links on my previous post about how easy it is to fake a finger print. I could do it.
As for on line credit card purchase I don't remember having to give my:
Name
Address
DoB
The address of every other residence here and aboroad
Every other name I have been known by
Every other address I've had
My national Identity number (OK havn't got one YET)
NHS Number
NI Number
Pasport Number
Driving Licence Number
Residential status
All of which will be required for the your government file on the National Identity Register. There are more but I couldn't be bother to type them all.
Black Cloud
I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know.
So you don't need to give a company your name and address when you purchase goods on line??? They then run your details by your bank.Who have your date of birth,past credit history..etc on file.If you've ever purchased car insurance,your name, address,telephone number,age,and occupation, will be on thousands of computer systems around the country already.That imformation is routinely sold onto third party groups.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2005, 10:41 AM)
How dare the government put something into place that is only 99% effective.Would your arguement be to never sell condoms because they are only 99% effective.
Counter to claims from various rogue anti-ID websites .It is vertually impossible to fake the proposed ID card.Please tell me how you could produce a fake ID.All prints and iris scans would happen at the same time as your photo being taken,with all relevent imformation being stored on the database at that time also.Please tell me how you think one could be faked,i'm genuinely interested to know.
I think that making the ID secure and producing them for a resonable price is totally realistic.I'm more concerned that the money and technology will all be wasted unless the government make ID cards effective,by making it compulsory to have one,AND allowing the police to ask people to produce a card on request.
Counter to claims from various rogue anti-ID websites .It is vertually impossible to fake the proposed ID card.Please tell me how you could produce a fake ID.All prints and iris scans would happen at the same time as your photo being taken,with all relevent imformation being stored on the database at that time also.Please tell me how you think one could be faked,i'm genuinely interested to know.
I think that making the ID secure and producing them for a resonable price is totally realistic.I'm more concerned that the money and technology will all be wasted unless the government make ID cards effective,by making it compulsory to have one,AND allowing the police to ask people to produce a card on request.
The only way to make cards impossible to fake would be to refer every card use back to the NIR. Since there would be tens if not hundreds of thouusands of card transactions a minute the computing time would be prohibitive. Think about it your prints and iris scans would have to be compared to 40,000,000 others every time the card is used. If this is not done then the cards are easily fakable. Consider also that given the 99% efectiveness of the biometric reader and the ease with which fingerprints can be 'Stolen' the system still wouldn't be secure.
Black Cloud
I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know
Safeguards are easy to install.Add a three digit reference to fingerprint, that only the NIR would have.Obvously a fingerprint or iris recognition is only valuable IF it is scanned and refured to the NIR. This would not be difficult to do,as Credit card companies already process just as many enquiries per second ,as an ID will require.Your finger print wouldn't have to be compared to 40 Millions others.It would be compared with the matching name and refence codes on the datebase.Simple
ahhh.One of the rogue anti-ID card websites,i was talking about.
£300 each.
The economic organisation that published the report with the £300 cost was accussed of outright fabrication by the government this week. The government have stated that an ID card will only cost £30 if purchased with a new passport.
£300 each.
The economic organisation that published the report with the £300 cost was accussed of outright fabrication by the government this week. The government have stated that an ID card will only cost £30 if purchased with a new passport.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2005, 02:45 PM)
The economic organisation that published the report with the £300 cost was accussed of outright fabrication by the government this week.
Considering the 'outright fabrication' from this Government, who can tell how much they're actually going to cost, and who can say exactly how much information is going to be kept on them, or exactly who is going to be able to access, and subsequently act upon, that information.
From BBC News report: -
LSE: ID scheme cost uncertainties
A report by the London School of Economics says there are "ten key uncertainties" about the cost of the government's Identity Cards Bill project. They are:
1. How much will the scheme cost the UK?
Our 'best case' scenario is that it will cost around £10.6 billion (very roughly £170 per card and passport) though some of this cost may be absorbed into government budgets and passed on through tax. If the scheme is fully integrated into government IT systems this cost may increase considerably. Worst case: £19.2 billion, with a proportionately higher unit price per person.
2. How often will the cards or the biometrics on them need to be renewed?
Best case: once in 10 years for everyone. Worst case: once in five years for everyone. Median: some people (for instance, some elderly or ill people) will need to renew their biometrics every 5 years or more; some others will need to renew cards because of personal circumstance changes; but other people can go 10 years.
3. How often will ID cards be lost or damaged and need to be replaced?
Best case: Loss and damage will be the same as for passports. Worst case: More problems than with passports because ID cards are in use much more.
4. How difficult will it be to initially enrol people on the ID card scheme?
Best case: People flock to enrol speedily and there is no tail-end of resisters. Worst case: People need extensive chasing, some people resist cards to the end, and enrolment is slow.
5. How straightforward is it to verify people's identities and to enforce compliance with ID cards? How costly will it be to make corrections and re-enrol people in the ID card scheme?
Best case: No verification problems, few corrections, simple re-enrolment. Worst case: Significant problems with verifications, more corrections, difficulties checking other databases; enforcement is more costly because of citizen resistance, and re-enrolment is somewhat more complex.
6. To what extent will the public accept the government's proposals?
Best case: people come to embrace the government's scheme, seeing benefits in having an ID card backed by a Register. Worst case: a mass campaign of non-cooperation that creates unbearable pressures on the system with consequent financial cost.
7. To what extent will there be civil liberties and privacy implications in the scheme?
Best case: government is able to maintain strict protection of data on the register. Cards use secure technologies to limit the threat of data misuse. Worst case: the scheme suffers from "function creep" to the extent that a card becomes an internal passport without which a person cannot function.
8. Will disabled people suffer hardship and discrimination through the system's operation?
Best case: government recognizes the challenges that face many disabled people in relation to biometrics, and incorporates technology to meet and support these problems. Worst case: to rein in costs the government buys cheap technology that inherently disadvantages disabled people, resulting in severe day-to-day problems for them, for instance, possible denial of service and loss of dignity.
9. Are there any security concerns about the system?
Best case: the security of personal data remains much as it is in the current environment. Worst case: if intruders or hackers could compromise security, then large numbers of identity records are at risk.
10. Is there a risk that new kinds of ID fraud could arise from cards coming into pervasive use?
Best case: No new ID fraud. Worst case: Some new, high tech ID fraud develops, with greater costs for those citizens affected. Successful identity theft of a person's biometric data would mean that their fingerprints or iris scans are permanently in the hands of criminals, with little hope of revoking them.
No clue given about the methodology used by the LSE to reach these conclusions but no mention of the £300 frightener ...
LSE: ID scheme cost uncertainties
A report by the London School of Economics says there are "ten key uncertainties" about the cost of the government's Identity Cards Bill project. They are:
1. How much will the scheme cost the UK?
Our 'best case' scenario is that it will cost around £10.6 billion (very roughly £170 per card and passport) though some of this cost may be absorbed into government budgets and passed on through tax. If the scheme is fully integrated into government IT systems this cost may increase considerably. Worst case: £19.2 billion, with a proportionately higher unit price per person.
2. How often will the cards or the biometrics on them need to be renewed?
Best case: once in 10 years for everyone. Worst case: once in five years for everyone. Median: some people (for instance, some elderly or ill people) will need to renew their biometrics every 5 years or more; some others will need to renew cards because of personal circumstance changes; but other people can go 10 years.
3. How often will ID cards be lost or damaged and need to be replaced?
Best case: Loss and damage will be the same as for passports. Worst case: More problems than with passports because ID cards are in use much more.
4. How difficult will it be to initially enrol people on the ID card scheme?
Best case: People flock to enrol speedily and there is no tail-end of resisters. Worst case: People need extensive chasing, some people resist cards to the end, and enrolment is slow.
5. How straightforward is it to verify people's identities and to enforce compliance with ID cards? How costly will it be to make corrections and re-enrol people in the ID card scheme?
Best case: No verification problems, few corrections, simple re-enrolment. Worst case: Significant problems with verifications, more corrections, difficulties checking other databases; enforcement is more costly because of citizen resistance, and re-enrolment is somewhat more complex.
6. To what extent will the public accept the government's proposals?
Best case: people come to embrace the government's scheme, seeing benefits in having an ID card backed by a Register. Worst case: a mass campaign of non-cooperation that creates unbearable pressures on the system with consequent financial cost.
7. To what extent will there be civil liberties and privacy implications in the scheme?
Best case: government is able to maintain strict protection of data on the register. Cards use secure technologies to limit the threat of data misuse. Worst case: the scheme suffers from "function creep" to the extent that a card becomes an internal passport without which a person cannot function.
8. Will disabled people suffer hardship and discrimination through the system's operation?
Best case: government recognizes the challenges that face many disabled people in relation to biometrics, and incorporates technology to meet and support these problems. Worst case: to rein in costs the government buys cheap technology that inherently disadvantages disabled people, resulting in severe day-to-day problems for them, for instance, possible denial of service and loss of dignity.
9. Are there any security concerns about the system?
Best case: the security of personal data remains much as it is in the current environment. Worst case: if intruders or hackers could compromise security, then large numbers of identity records are at risk.
10. Is there a risk that new kinds of ID fraud could arise from cards coming into pervasive use?
Best case: No new ID fraud. Worst case: Some new, high tech ID fraud develops, with greater costs for those citizens affected. Successful identity theft of a person's biometric data would mean that their fingerprints or iris scans are permanently in the hands of criminals, with little hope of revoking them.
No clue given about the methodology used by the LSE to reach these conclusions but no mention of the £300 frightener ...
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2005, 12:18 PM)
Safeguards are easy to install.Add a three digit reference to fingerprint, that only the NIR would have.Obvously a fingerprint or iris recognition is only valuable IF it is scanned and refured to the NIR. This would not be difficult to do,as Credit card companies already process just as many enquiries per second ,as an ID will require.Your finger print wouldn't have to be compared to 40 Millions others.It would be compared with the matching name and refence codes on the datebase.Simple
KLF you are thinking a little small here.
We are not talking about a small simple system like those used for Credit Cards and which handle a few killobytes of information per transaction. We are talking about the most complex database system ever attempted in the world. One biometric alone would require about a megabyte. This system proposes to use three biometrics. During the home office trials verification of a fingerprint from a scanner took 90 second using a data base of only a million prints. With database of 40,000,000 this equates to 1 hour, which is hardly acceptable.
The three digit reference number idea is bad security since it mixes hight and low level access systems.
Black Cloud
I don't need an ID Card I've got nothing to hide.
QUOTE(Alberr @ Jun 29 2005, 03:33 PM)
From BBC News report: -
sorry Alberr, the BBC is a far left organisation who give a bias, and a slant to all they report.
Yes,it was that report from the London School of Economics,that the government accussed of being totally unaccurate,poorly researched and having sections of complete fabrication.
And you're right nevski.I wasn't suprised that the Beeb were all over the report like a rash.
And you're right nevski.I wasn't suprised that the Beeb were all over the report like a rash.
QUOTE(nevski @ Jun 29 2005, 05:00 PM)
QUOTE(Alberr @ Jun 29 2005, 03:33 PM)
From BBC News report: -
sorry Alberr, the BBC is a far left organisation who give a bias, and a slant to all they report.
Oh! I thought they were back on side again, after Tony and his cronies did them over about calling him a liar ...
QUOTE(Black Cloud @ Jun 29 2005, 03:38 AM)
As for on line credit card purchase I don't remember having to give my:
Name
Address
DoB
The address of every other residence here and aboroad
Every other name I have been known by
Every other address I've had
My national Identity number (OK havn't got one YET)
NHS Number
NI Number
Pasport Number
Driving Licence Number
Residential status
Name
Address
DoB
The address of every other residence here and aboroad
Every other name I have been known by
Every other address I've had
My national Identity number (OK havn't got one YET)
NHS Number
NI Number
Pasport Number
Driving Licence Number
Residential status
In the US, the credit bureaus (there are three of them) have all this information (and *more*!) linked through one's Social Security number, even if you've never given it to them. They also link your identity with former residents of your dwelling (even if you didn't know them), and even with your neigbors in some circumstances. You would not even have a credit card without their having it, and they have it even if you *don't* have a credit card.
And they sell that info. Yes, potential employers, landlords, crazy stalker exes can all get their hands on it.
Horrifying.
the best one is one of the credit reporting agencies had me living at an address i house sat for 3 weeks. what i want to know is how the hell did they know i was there?
i didn't buy anything, recieve mail there, nada nothing.
it still freaks me out a bit.
can't get an apartment in new york without your landlord getting their mits on all your details for a credit check.
i didn't buy anything, recieve mail there, nada nothing.
it still freaks me out a bit.
can't get an apartment in new york without your landlord getting their mits on all your details for a credit check.
Wow.
That's freaky even by credit bureau standards.
That's freaky even by credit bureau standards.
QUOTE(tinman @ Jun 20 2005, 08:44 PM)
I doubt klf or anyone would want to stop hospital treatment for anyone in imminent life threatening danger, but the uk nhs is routinely taken for a ride, I for instance know of some citizens of the USA and Australia who have had kids in maternity wards here, never even been asked where they are from, what their NI number is, and of course if we were to use a maternity ward in their home countries you can be pretty sure we would get charged, and I'm talking about people who could have very well paid a reasonable hospital bill
I'm sorry tinman, this just simply isn't true.
I work on a maternity ward, and the first thing we ask a woman, who comes to deliver her baby, is where her hand held notes are. These notes are given to her when she has her booking interview and will contain all of the details necessary to ascertain her identity, as well as all of her medical history, ante natal history etc. At the interview, the woman has to prove that she is eligible for NHS treatment, GP letter, hospital number, NI number etc. If a woman turns up at any maternity ward without them she would have to provide some other proof that she is eligible for treatment, like a hospital number, NI number etc. If she fails to provide such evidence of eligibility then she must provide evidence of her identity so she can be billed for her treatment. If she fails to provide any evidence of identity, the social services are informed, who in turn inform the police so the woman can be properly identified and billed accordingly. If anyone slips through the net, it's the fault of the individuals caring for that woman, not the system. A baby, not properly identified by the system, will not be allowed out of the ward unless the social services and/or the police say so.
The above system is, in my opinion, much better than allowing a woman to turn up at a maternity ward to receive free treatment on the basis of one, easily forgeable, form of identification.
The notion of ID cards is wrong on the basis that: A] Every reason, that the government gives for the requirement of ID cards, is already covered by a perfectly workable system, B] It's punitively expensive, and I for one do not want to pay for repetition (see A), and C] if Tony Benn says we don't need them, then thats good enough for me.
Cheers, Andy.
Come on Andy,get real.How can the NHS send a bill to someone if they don't know who they are ? If a heavily pregnent women was admitted to hospital to have a baby,you are not going to refuse to deliver her baby just because she won't reveal her name.What about if she gives a false name.How long would that take to investigate,and anyway if it was found to be false,you wouldn't refuse her treatment anyway.
Learn to read klf - Andy clearly states that the baby wouldn't be allowed off the ward until the police/ social services were happy that they had properly identified her.
Of course they'd get treatment (you can't stop a baby being born afterall, it'll come out eventually) - stop being such a DailyMailhead!
Of course they'd get treatment (you can't stop a baby being born afterall, it'll come out eventually) - stop being such a DailyMailhead!
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 05:34 PM)
What about if she gives a false name.
Or a forged ID card?
And what if its a fake baby?!!
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 04:34 PM)
Come on Andy,get real.How can the NHS send a bill to someone if they don't know who they are ?
That's why I said, and I quote "If she fails to provide such evidence of eligibility then she must provide EVIDENCE of her identity so she can be billed for her treatment". I have witnessed this happen on two occasions in the last three weeks. If we (NHS staff/midwives) cannot illicit evidence of the womans identity, the social services are immediately informed.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 04:34 PM)
If a heavily pregnent women was admitted to hospital to have a baby,you are not going to refuse to deliver her baby just because she won't reveal her name.
That's true, but as I CLEARLY said, and again I quote, "If she fails to provide any evidence of identity, the social services are informed, who in turn inform the police so the woman can be PROPERLY identified and billed accordingly". If she cannot be immediately identified she, and the baby, would be taken into the custody of the social services, until such time as she can be identified.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 04:34 PM)
What about if she gives a false name.
She would have to be a very intelligent confidence trickster, or extemely lucky, to just by chance come up with a false name (OH and she would have to have her hospital number at the same time by the way) that will correspond with another woman, in the maternity database, who happens to be due to have her baby at exactly the same time. Do you imagine that your average, heavilly pregnant, illegal immigrant would have the resourcefulness to be able to do that?
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 04:34 PM)
How long would that take to investigate,and anyway if it was found to be false,you wouldn't refuse her treatment anyway.
I can't answer the question about how long it would take to investigate, and NO, we wouldn't refuse her treatment if birth was imminent. But by that stage, the social services and the police would have the responsibility of ascertaining the womans identity, and she would be dealt with accordingly.
The above FACTS are exactly that, FACTS, so therefore I have got real, QED.
Cheers, Andy.
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Jun 30 2005, 06:50 PM)
And what if its a fake baby?!!
Come on Andy and Sarah. Maternity nurses have consistantly said they will not inform the authories of people they suspect are illegal.I'm sure i read a few months ago,that nurses threated strike action ,if they were requires to 'grass' on patients.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 08:09 PM)
Come on Andy and Sarah. Maternity nurses have consistantly said they will not inform the authories of people they suspect are illegal.I'm sure i read a few months ago,that nurses threated strike action ,if they were requires to 'grass' on patients.
Those pesky nurses, so irresponsible!
So, klf, what's to stop them treating somebody who didn't have an ID card, or who had one that was obviously fake?
And then not reporting them to the authorities?
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 07:09 PM)
Maternity nurses
KLF,
First things first. There is no such thing as a "maternity nurse". We are MIDWIVES and there is a significant diference (if you want an explanation, I'll give you it).
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 07:09 PM)
have consistantly said they will not inform the authories of people they suspect are illegal.
As someone who is currently working and studying in the midwifery profession, I can assure you that no midwife would put his, or her, registration in danger by delivering a baby to a woman who has not been properly identified (or properly dealt with by the social services should identification not be forthcoming). Seeing as you have never worked in a maternity unit your comments are completely without foundation, and futhermore extremely insulting to the profession I proudly represent on this forum.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 07:09 PM)
I'm sure i read a few months ago,that nurses threated strike action ,if they were requires to 'grass' on patients.
I can't speak for "nurses" but I can assure you that MIDWIVES would never knowingly shield someone from the authorities if they failed to adequately identify themselves at the point of delivery of care, they would be breaking the rules of midwifery if they did. Your coments in this regard are quite possibly the most reprehensible I've ever seen you make on this forum KLF, and that's coming from someone who has actually enjoyed debates I have had with you, historically.
Midwifery is without doubt one of the most noble professions I have ever had the honour to being part of. I don't often agree with you KLF, and thats fair enough, but I have to say that this is the first time I have been deeply offended by your misinformed comments. If this is what you set out to do, then congratulations, you achieved your goal. If not, please take some time to look into the profession you're maligning before you make such comments. I can guide you in the direction of the necessary information if you wish.
Cheers, Andy.
QUOTE
I can't speak for "nurses"
I can, and the same applies to anyone who gives birth within our unit - all details (or lack of them) are handed over when the mother and baby leave the Emergency Department.
Regards, aqua.
QUOTE(Andy Tyrrell @ Jun 30 2005, 11:02 PM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 07:09 PM)
Maternity nurses
KLF,
First things first. There is no such thing as a "maternity nurse". We are MIDWIVES and there is a significant diference (if you want an explanation, I'll give you it).
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 07:09 PM)
have consistantly said they will not inform the authories of people they suspect are illegal.
As someone who is currently working and studying in the midwifery profession, I can assure you that no midwife would put his, or her, registration in danger by delivering a baby to a woman who has not been properly identified (or properly dealt with by the social services should identification not be forthcoming). Seeing as you have never worked in a maternity unit your comments are completely without foundation, and futhermore extremely insulting to the profession I proudly represent on this forum.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 30 2005, 07:09 PM)
I'm sure i read a few months ago,that nurses threated strike action ,if they were requires to 'grass' on patients.
I can't speak for "nurses" but I can assure you that MIDWIVES would never knowingly shield someone from the authorities if they failed to adequately identify themselves at the point of delivery of care, they would be breaking the rules of midwifery if they did. Your coments in this regard are quite possibly the most reprehensible I've ever seen you make on this forum KLF, and that's coming from someone who has actually enjoyed debates I have had with you, historically.
Midwifery is without doubt one of the most noble professions I have ever had the honour to being part of. I don't often agree with you KLF, and thats fair enough, but I have to say that this is the first time I have been deeply offended by your misinformed comments. If this is what you set out to do, then congratulations, you achieved your goal. If not, please take some time to look into the profession you're maligning before you make such comments. I can guide you in the direction of the necessary information if you wish.
Cheers, Andy.
Come on Andy.What did i say that was offensive to Midwives ??? Where have i criticised their skill,dedication or the contibution they make to society?.My comments were entirely based on the report i read,about nurses in maternity wards refusing to inform on people they suspected of being illegal.You have personal experience in that field and you say that is not the situation on the ground.In that case,i stand corrected.
Re "I'm sorry tinman, this just simply isn't true."
dont call me a liar, it will not help, my sister in law is australian, i was there when she was checked in, i know what she was asked for
dont call me a liar, it will not help, my sister in law is australian, i was there when she was checked in, i know what she was asked for
if you want another example of how crap the uk is at organising things an australian teacher friend of mine had to surrender her passport so that the police could do the relevant child abuse checks before she would be offered the job
anyway she was given the all clear despite the fact her permssion to be in the uk had clearly expired in her passport some time ago
one hand of the state checks the passport for one thing and ignores the bleeding obvious issue that is someone elses responsibility
anyway she was given the all clear despite the fact her permssion to be in the uk had clearly expired in her passport some time ago
one hand of the state checks the passport for one thing and ignores the bleeding obvious issue that is someone elses responsibility
oh and what crime exactly would the police or social services use to hold them?
are you aware how overworked the social services and police are already, i can tell you they are highly unlikely to stop an intelligent australian lady leave hospital
they do not have the man time to sweep up the real nutters, never mind help a health service that is piss poor at organising anything
are you aware how overworked the social services and police are already, i can tell you they are highly unlikely to stop an intelligent australian lady leave hospital
they do not have the man time to sweep up the real nutters, never mind help a health service that is piss poor at organising anything
and another thing (i am really cheesed off about this)
i have met several london hospital doctors recently and THEY all complain about the numbers of foreign nationals in the london hospital beds many with dubious or no right to nhs treatment
meanwhile the govt puts out press releases saying waiting lists are down, blantant lies, they are not down if you include time to get to see consultant initially, or people put back to the front of the list for one of many reasons (move house, fail to answer a nagging letter, etc)
the nhs is CRAP
please accept that and help come up with ideas to improve it
i have met several london hospital doctors recently and THEY all complain about the numbers of foreign nationals in the london hospital beds many with dubious or no right to nhs treatment
meanwhile the govt puts out press releases saying waiting lists are down, blantant lies, they are not down if you include time to get to see consultant initially, or people put back to the front of the list for one of many reasons (move house, fail to answer a nagging letter, etc)
the nhs is CRAP
please accept that and help come up with ideas to improve it
KLF,
As somone who works in the maternity service I might have been over sensitive and mirepresented your post as an attack on the professionalism of the service I'm representing in this debate. I apologise if I got this wrong. It would be nice to hear those people, so disenfranchised with the NHS, to at least acknowledge the dedication and hard work midwives, nurses, and all other branches of the caring professions have put into our hopitals.
Tinman,
Your acidity in this debate makes me disinclined to want to debate the issues with you at all, but I will say this. Your anecdotes in themselves are by no means evidence to back up your assertion that, and I quote, "the NHS is crap" (OOOHHH sticks and stones, very grown up debating style there). I'd love to see you stand in a full staff room on any maternity ward, or general nursing ward for that matter, and make that statement. Don't forget that, in this wonderful country of ours, with it's wonderfully ethical (tongue in cheek) media, you don't hear stories like "250,000 women have a brilliant birth experience each year" or "500,000 people's lives saved in A&E since 2003" and such like. Why I hear you ask, 'cause blinkered people wont buy into that media if they did. And you fall for it every time, if your biased, unbalanced view, and inability to acknowledge the the overwhelming fact that the NHS is one of the few things this country can be proud of, is anything to go by.
Oh and by the way, I have met loads of doctors recently, seeing as I work with quite a few of them (tell me Tinman, what is it that you do that brings you into contact with so many doctors?), and the main thing they complain about is the utter nonsense the British media reports about the NHS, very little of which actually represents the true picture.
The NHS is far from perfect, but I'd rather have what we have now than most, if not all, alternatives.
Cheers, Andy.
As somone who works in the maternity service I might have been over sensitive and mirepresented your post as an attack on the professionalism of the service I'm representing in this debate. I apologise if I got this wrong. It would be nice to hear those people, so disenfranchised with the NHS, to at least acknowledge the dedication and hard work midwives, nurses, and all other branches of the caring professions have put into our hopitals.
Tinman,
Your acidity in this debate makes me disinclined to want to debate the issues with you at all, but I will say this. Your anecdotes in themselves are by no means evidence to back up your assertion that, and I quote, "the NHS is crap" (OOOHHH sticks and stones, very grown up debating style there). I'd love to see you stand in a full staff room on any maternity ward, or general nursing ward for that matter, and make that statement. Don't forget that, in this wonderful country of ours, with it's wonderfully ethical (tongue in cheek) media, you don't hear stories like "250,000 women have a brilliant birth experience each year" or "500,000 people's lives saved in A&E since 2003" and such like. Why I hear you ask, 'cause blinkered people wont buy into that media if they did. And you fall for it every time, if your biased, unbalanced view, and inability to acknowledge the the overwhelming fact that the NHS is one of the few things this country can be proud of, is anything to go by.
Oh and by the way, I have met loads of doctors recently, seeing as I work with quite a few of them (tell me Tinman, what is it that you do that brings you into contact with so many doctors?), and the main thing they complain about is the utter nonsense the British media reports about the NHS, very little of which actually represents the true picture.
The NHS is far from perfect, but I'd rather have what we have now than most, if not all, alternatives.
Cheers, Andy.
andy
ive got the odd friend who is a nurse, and i do appreciate that many of the people at the coal face of the nhs do a hard job well, and im sure many good deeds go unreporteed every day in the nhs, and im thankful for that
have you read some of the stuff over at
http://www.patients-association.com/
many posted by nhs staff who get the biggest shock of their life when they need to use the service as a patient and see how crap it is, there must be lessons to be learnt he
on the opposite hand to your post, there is generally great good will to medical staff, when in reality they are only doing their job, and many equally worhtwhile low paid go unremarked, there is a lot of goodwill
but the customers are let down day in day out by staff who think they are doing you a favour
but the true scandal is the way the nhs is organised, it relies on motivation for improvement in reacting to complaints (well oiled compliants machinary and not much real action) and metrics - in the real world metrics are provided by customers not by the supplier - we all know the published figures are bogus
so i am afraid your position that you are generally happy with the status quo is not something i will every agree with, and neither do most ordinary folk when they come across the reality of long waits filth and no access to recent worthwhile treatments
i meet allsorts of people in my day to day life, i would not have thought this was so unusual
ok if the nhs is not crap, how would you describe long waits and the like?
and why do other western nations not have similar waits if they are such a great idea
and I think nhs low pay is another scandal, but i see no way the current structure will improve that either
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
FFS
ive got the odd friend who is a nurse, and i do appreciate that many of the people at the coal face of the nhs do a hard job well, and im sure many good deeds go unreporteed every day in the nhs, and im thankful for that
have you read some of the stuff over at
http://www.patients-association.com/
many posted by nhs staff who get the biggest shock of their life when they need to use the service as a patient and see how crap it is, there must be lessons to be learnt he
on the opposite hand to your post, there is generally great good will to medical staff, when in reality they are only doing their job, and many equally worhtwhile low paid go unremarked, there is a lot of goodwill
but the customers are let down day in day out by staff who think they are doing you a favour
but the true scandal is the way the nhs is organised, it relies on motivation for improvement in reacting to complaints (well oiled compliants machinary and not much real action) and metrics - in the real world metrics are provided by customers not by the supplier - we all know the published figures are bogus
so i am afraid your position that you are generally happy with the status quo is not something i will every agree with, and neither do most ordinary folk when they come across the reality of long waits filth and no access to recent worthwhile treatments
i meet allsorts of people in my day to day life, i would not have thought this was so unusual
ok if the nhs is not crap, how would you describe long waits and the like?
and why do other western nations not have similar waits if they are such a great idea
and I think nhs low pay is another scandal, but i see no way the current structure will improve that either
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
FFS
QUOTE(tinman @ Jul 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
ive got the odd friend who is a nurse, and i do appreciate that many of the people at the coal face of the nhs do a hard job well, and im sure many good deeds go unreporteed every day in the nhs, and im thankful for that
Tinman,
Thanks for that, at least we can move a little closer now and hopefully debate the problems/issues in regard of the NHS cheerfully (as is often my wont), and perhaps we can get it in context, in the sense that we're perhaps not poles apart, as the exchange so far might indicate.
QUOTE(tinman @ Jul 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
on the opposite hand to your post, there is generally great good will to medical staff, when in reality they are only doing their job, and many equally worhtwhile low paid go unremarked, there is a lot of goodwill
I don't think this is a very fair comment as I'm sure your nurse friends would agree. To become a nurse/midwife, takes a lot of hard work and a great deal of dedication. Considering what nurses and midwives have to know to carry out their duties effectively they are extremely low paid, and many (perhaps less dedicated staff) are voting with their feet. It is well reported that NHS workers are more likely to suffer stress at work, have the highest incidence of marital break ups and feel less valued now than ever, ( I will try and find references for this, I know I have some somewhere). I happen to believe that the goodwill the British populace have for nurses and midwives is more than deserved. Also, considering that the NHS is Britains largest employer, I think it would be unrealistic to expect all nurses or midwives to be modern day Florence Nightingales, but in my experience the vast majority of them bloody well are.
QUOTE(tinman @ Jul 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
but the customers are let down day in day out by staff who think they are doing you a favour
I'm not saying that some people aren't let down by the system, but considering the throughput of clients the NHS deals with, on a daily basis, it would take a miracle of divine proportions to eradicate. Again, taking into account the amount of people treated by the NHS each year, I would argue that the prevalence of people "let down" isn't as large as you might imagine/may have gleaned from politically motivated press reports. Do a few googles and get some figures about how many people the NHS treat and cross reference that with the amount of complaints and you might be suprised by the percentages.
QUOTE(tinman @ Jul 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
so i am afraid your position that you are generally happy with the status quo is not something i will every agree with, and neither do most ordinary folk when they come across the reality of long waits filth and no access to recent worthwhile treatments
I never said that I was happy with the status quo per se, as I'm sure that, deep down you don't believe the NHS is "crap" per se. What I was hoping to do is bring the debate to a point where we're not making extreme statments to justify our points. That way we can be more respective of each others views and hopefully move the debate forward in a realistic manner. You said the NHS was crap (full stop). If I said that the NHS was perfect in retaliation then we would both be wrong and the debate would turn into the kind of gainsay tennis match old KLF loves to get himself embroiled in. Lets rise above that shall we?
QUOTE(tinman @ Jul 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
ok if the nhs is not crap, how would you describe long waits and the like?
They are very dissappointing and are a problem that definately needs addressing. When I have more time (off to the pub in a bit) I'll try and put together some cogent thoughts on the subject.
QUOTE(tinman @ Jul 1 2005, 05:41 PM)
and why do other western nations not have similar waits if they are such a great idea
I would want to know more about what really happens in other countries before I comment. With all due respect Tinman, your anecdotes are interesting, but hardly a basis for me to make a judgment on what actually happens, from day to day, in other countries, I'm sure you can appreciate that. One could also ask the question, how many people, in other countries, simply don't get any treatment at all?
See you later, when I'm pissed and can't type properly.
Cheers, Andy.
have a great time enjoying yourself
few small points
i) i think the number of complaints significantly underrepresents the level of frustration and disgust with the health service. I complained about some obviously bad treatment my dad received and having been through the whole thing I wouldnt bother again. The trust involved has a few dedicated staff writing nice political letters to complainants, but I'm afraid I saw no evidence that any of the things complained about were addressed. Which is why I would never bother to complain about the stuff I know about personally now, including my own wait.
ii) in the real world organisations do not change by reacting to complaints from customers, most customers getting poor service cannot be hassled with complaints and simply take their custom elsewhere, in the nhs they cannot do this and they are stuck with whatever they get, so neither side gets a satisfactory experience
iii) on the foreign stuff i think new zealand has a reasonable good health care system, which neither suffers the extremes of the US letting down the poor, or the UK long long waits and poor treatment, we could learn a lot from them, but other european states are not bad either belgium etc, although im sure none are perfect
probably pay for the staff will only improve when patients can pay more for better treatment, more convinient appointments, being seen sooner, closer to work or closer to home, or whatever, having the pay controlled in a central way with no reaction to market forces driven by the customers will inevitably keep wages down
glad we both seem to want it to improve
few small points
i) i think the number of complaints significantly underrepresents the level of frustration and disgust with the health service. I complained about some obviously bad treatment my dad received and having been through the whole thing I wouldnt bother again. The trust involved has a few dedicated staff writing nice political letters to complainants, but I'm afraid I saw no evidence that any of the things complained about were addressed. Which is why I would never bother to complain about the stuff I know about personally now, including my own wait.
ii) in the real world organisations do not change by reacting to complaints from customers, most customers getting poor service cannot be hassled with complaints and simply take their custom elsewhere, in the nhs they cannot do this and they are stuck with whatever they get, so neither side gets a satisfactory experience
iii) on the foreign stuff i think new zealand has a reasonable good health care system, which neither suffers the extremes of the US letting down the poor, or the UK long long waits and poor treatment, we could learn a lot from them, but other european states are not bad either belgium etc, although im sure none are perfect
probably pay for the staff will only improve when patients can pay more for better treatment, more convinient appointments, being seen sooner, closer to work or closer to home, or whatever, having the pay controlled in a central way with no reaction to market forces driven by the customers will inevitably keep wages down
glad we both seem to want it to improve
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