which public services are you talking about?

you have already got to have a library card to use the library, a NI card to get an interview in the Job Centre, a NHS number to use your local hopsital, a blockbuster card to hire a video, a young persons railcard to get cheap bus travel....

why do we need anythign else? the systems work.

an id card is an opportunity for harrassment by police officers of individuals going about their business. if someone is suspected of a crime, they are liable to arrest, and detention, whetrher they hold an ID card or not. is it going to be law that you are offending by not carrying your ID card?

if someone is not suspected of a crime, the police have no right to impede them going about their business. how does an ID card help this?

ID theft is the biggest problem facing individuals with credit cards and bank accounts. an ID card with their details on will make ID theft easier. just steal the ID card.

ID card will increase harrassment of innocent people, incur hige costs, and show little or no benefit to the safety and security of this countries citizens.

how was your Holiday, KLF?

Bollox do you need a NHS card to recieve hospital treatment.What planet are you living on,Nev. A&E is constantly used nowadays as an unofficial GP's surgery by illegal immigrants. Nurses were up in arms recently when the government had the audacity to ask them to report suspected illegal immigrants in the maternity ward.Do all the health tourists from abroad show their NHS number?? do me a favour.What are the chances of the woman who's about to have here sixth abortion in under a year,ever beeing asked for her NHS number,and if by some miracle they were asked,i'm sure they would just give a relatives number or borrow one from someone else .Sometimes your niavety suprises me,Nevski.

Also do you really think illegals would look for work in a jobcentre No mate, they are all being picked up by transit vans from bus stops at 6am in the morning.You really should get out more.


PS..I've havn't been on holiday,thanks for asking.My computer was out of action for a couple of weeks.

fuckin 'ell.

the boy has totally lost it

sorry to hear about your computer being out of action <cough,Splutter>

So, KLF, ID cards are there to stop people who need treatment getting it, if they aren'f from round here.

NICE ONE! we can get rid of the 'illegals; by letting them die! Wow you should write to the daily mail, you might win £10 for star letter of the day.

where did i say i was talking about a and E departments? I am talking about hospital wards in general.

and ALL 'illegal immigrants' get into transit vans at 6am in the morning at bus stops? Ok then, the simple way to stop that practice is to catch the EMPLOYERS who pick them up. shouldnt be too hard should it. stick some undercover policeman at the bus stop... that'd be more effective than an id card. Anyways you're wrong, some of 'them' start at 6.30. and some get picked up outside the newsagents. Hell, some of 'them' don't EVEN do a days work, the lazy scrotes. how dare they?!

I fear that while your PC was out of action, you have been reading too many BNP, UKIP, VERITAS and conservative leaflets, perhaps it is YOU who should get out more.

and please, don't refer to me as your 'mate'.


edited to remove a comment that would only have been used as an opportunity to call me an nasty left wing extremist.

So I take it you rejoice in the possibilities of the State having a database of everybody's biometric information stored electronically, available to the oddest of public bodies, not just the police? You hail the storage of fingerprints because it will make the arrest and elimination of possible criminals from society that much more cost effective?

What happens if your biometric information is used against you by a state that doesn't act in the best or general interest of its citizens? What if the government of some future date introduces a piece of legislation that makes, what is now, an innocent - non-law breaking activity, a criminal offence, and then uses the information it has stored about you to make you the target of the very system you are striving to uphold? What then?

And where are the further examples to justify the introduction of this system...

klf is talking even more bollox than usual but i am now totally convinced ID cards are evil... even though i was ambivilent before.

KLF
Below is Section 15 from the ID Cards bill. Please note Paragraph three.
It would appear that the proposed card doesn't meet your requirements and is therfore a waste of time and money, £5.5 Billion at current estimates. Bear in mind that Social Security fraud due to multiple identities only accounts for a small percentage of the total cost of fraud.



15 Power to make public services conditional on identity checks
(1) Regulations may make provision allowing or requiring a person who provides
a public service to make it a condition of providing the service to an individual
that the individual produces—
(a) an ID card;
(b) other evidence of registrable facts about himself; or
© both.
(2) Regulations under this section may not allow or require the imposition of a
condition on—
(a) the entitlement of an individual to receive a payment under or in
accordance with any enactment, or
(b) the provision of any public service that has to be provided free of
charge,
except in cases where the individual is of a description of individuals who, by
virtue of section 6, are required to be entered in the Register.
(3) Nothing in this section authorises the making of regulations the effect of which
would be to require an individual—
(a) to carry an ID card with him at all times; or
(b) to produce such a card otherwise than for purposes connected with an
application by him for the provision of a public service, or with the
provision of a public service for which he has applied.

I ask again, what is the the purpose of these cards?

Black Cloud

I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know.

KLF
Below is Section 15 from the ID Cards bill. Please note Paragraph three.
It would appear that the proposed card doesn't meet your requirements and is therfore a waste of time and money, £5.5 Billion at current estimates. Bear in mind that Social Security fraud due to multiple identities only accounts for a small percentage of the total cost of fraud.



15 Power to make public services conditional on identity checks
(1) Regulations may make provision allowing or requiring a person who provides
a public service to make it a condition of providing the service to an individual
that the individual produces—
(a) an ID card;
(b) other evidence of registrable facts about himself; or
© both.
(2) Regulations under this section may not allow or require the imposition of a
condition on—
(a) the entitlement of an individual to receive a payment under or in
accordance with any enactment, or
(b) the provision of any public service that has to be provided free of
charge,
except in cases where the individual is of a description of individuals who, by
virtue of section 6, are required to be entered in the Register.
(3) Nothing in this section authorises the making of regulations the effect of which
would be to require an individual—
(a) to carry an ID card with him at all times; or
(b) to produce such a card otherwise than for purposes connected with an
application by him for the provision of a public service, or with the
provision of a public service for which he has applied.

I ask again, what is the the purpose of these cards?

Black Cloud

I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know.

But your arguement was that people needed a NHS number in order to get treated,so a ID card was unnecessary.Make your mind up.



Nasty left wing extremist ? NEVER mate

klf


you are on another planet klf!

'health tourists' have to provide documentation to prove they are elligble for reciprocal free treatment.. as do we when we go abroad.

but i am really concerned that you (and if you are correct, the general populace) should think that 'illegals' are filling our hospital wards getting endless free abortions. what is that all about ?

interestingly a google came up with this site.

you obviously have common ground there klf.

Through work we were talking to some 18-21 UK nationals (before klf accuses them of being "illegals") from various ethnic backgrounds -it formed part of a study on ethnic minorities attitudes to working in the public sector.
I sat in on one of the groups with some mixed race afro-caribbean/white girls.
All of them were nice well brought up girls at Uni and at college, one girl (who looked the least "street" of them) had been stopped by the police 3 times in the last 5 days, for nothing.
The other girls, who did look more bling in caps and string vests etc, were saying the same thing - they and their friends were being Stopped and Searched (just like the bad old days) for absolutely no reason. This was in Brixton where you would think the police had learnt their lesson.
This will continue to happen and they'll have even more of an "excuse" to do it if ID cards are introduced.

As a white middle class girl who lives in a nice neighbourhood, I know that having to carry one won't ever effect me - what I'm against is what it will do to the people who live in the neighbourhoods near me and the sheer vast waste of money it will cost.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3105931.stm

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/news/tm...-name_page.html

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/7..._tourists_.html

http://www.minbu.freeuk.com/ripping.htm

The term for what you are talking about here Dissident is 'Function Creep'.
The miners strike in the mid eighties has a good example of this. During the dispute the DVLA's database was used to restrict the miners, and people who had bought cars from miners, ability to move freely around the country.
I find it unlikely that the DVLA's system designers ever planned or even envisaged this use for the system.

Black Cloud

I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know.

klf.. all those links refer to people getting 'free' treatment because that is what is allowed under the current rules.

it has nothing to do with them falsifying their identity or status in order to get it.

get a grip.

my reference to the NF link was a match to the hysteria that you are attempting to engender .

it was a good match.

Ahh, like what's going to happen with house arrest you mean? <blinks innocently>

Eventually.
This government or the next may be okay but what about the one in 2015 or 2025, who knows.
The Anti terror and ID Cards legislation are based on the dodgy premise that they will NEVER be abused.

Black Cloud
PS
Have a look at no2id.co.uk.
I'm doing nothing wrong so no one needs to know.

Hello KLF,

Despite your little problems with the French peoples, we agree on the benefits of proposed I.D. cards! In Europe, its normal. The police ask me once in France for the card. It was not with me so I can bring it later to them, or there is a fine but fine is rare.

So no objections. It is normal with your country moving more to Europe with things like borders lifting. It would be good if UK signs away the law for passport for Europeans/UK peoples now because you do not need passports to cross borders in the mainland.

I do think there is negative reasons why Mr Blair is talking about I.D. cards too. Some people say Mr Bush won his last election because the people were afraid. Then we get House Arrest and talks of I.D. cards will save us. It did not save Madrid who play much less role in Iraq.

The U.K. and U.S.A have caused the hornet nest for us now in the U.K. after Iraq. There is always consequences for actions. Mr Blair might think I.D. cards will stop the impact of his actions but the truth always catch up with us sooner or later. It is a fear card for sure by a paranoid government. Fear is always best to unite the peoples. It worked in the U.S.A.

There is a lot of extreme Muslim militants in UK and more in France who hate Mr Blair because of Iraq. It is sure and certain Mr Blair knows this and his fear is justified and normal people pay the price of this and his I.D. card. This is one of the main reasons France avoided war because we have many Muslim peoples.

So I think I.D. card OK but the spin on why so important now for Mr Blair is just another action of a desperate man who is paranoid and scared of what he has created.

Peter Hain on radio 4 a few moments ago was asked about ID cards.........his reply was along the lines of ' They are an important part of our manifesto and the British people have voted us in to enforce the pledges that we have made'

Will we also enter the Schengen agreement region, i.e. that of borderless travel? Switzerland are considering joining and if we were to do so you could get travel from here to beyond the European Union borders without ever showing your passport. If that were the case would we start to feel that some form of common ID might have a value? I don't know.

Thanks for that Aqua. I needed some smidgen of affirmation after voting Lib Dem yesterday.

Hain. Another slimy sell out to the politics of the right.

When I was a schoolboy and he was a student I admired him for his far left views and anti establishment activity. Now he has versace suits to pay for and a safe seat to protect. Tosser.

I note with interest that new members are asking the same question I did way back at the beginning of this thread. They, like me, are coming up against a wall of silence.
The ID Card supporters cannot or will not tell us what the ID card is for.

Good question Jackeau. But I'm still not having one unless I have access to whatever is held on the card. I can see my photo and the info on my passport. How will I know what's on a chip or a magnetic strip?

not billy's strongest answer on any questions this evening

i actually know peter hain a bit from cwu days. Nice bloke but been blairised.

sad.

martyn... shouldn't you have been listening to the radio or were you posting while you listened ??

Sad to see Peter slipping away ... he and his family fought a long and dangerous campaign against the apartheid regime and the pass laws in South Africa ... now he thinks it's ok ... strange old world ...

I wasn't going to say anything but at 17:30 I was thinking " I must get a tape out and set the hifi up to record Any Questions".

I knew it was on at eight and I knew Billy was a panelist.

By 17:35 I was asleep in the bath.

Until a few moments ago I'd completely forgotten about it.

Bugger.

it'll be on listen again, repeated tommorow afternoon, or it's probably on my computer somewhere...

peter doesn't seem too happy about life with blair



i've just remembered.. i've got some excellent photos of peter on the demonstration for the ambulance workers in trafalgar square (1990 ? ). I think he had just been put forward as a cwu sponsored parliamentary candidate and i knew he would go far.

I listened to Hain talking about thsi atuff again this morning and his general response seems to be that the media and activists are the ones who feel uncomfortable with an ID card and that everyone else sees it as a common sense matter...

He added that soon we would need to have a biometric pass of some description to visit the US, something I hadn't known. Is the line, again, that we should roll over to accommodate the US? Whate percentage of the UK population travel to the US? 5%, 10% perhaps? It shouldn't be that troublesome to apply for a credit card sized slip with your details on it if you need to go there and not force an ID crad on the remainder of the population.

I'm something of a fence sitter on this issue but I don't like the idea that we should have our home policy determined by the small numbers that may wish/need to visit the US. That is plain daft. We required visas for years and it wasn't that big an issue to send off your passport and get one back in the post.

Until very recently the USA required all tourists to have a visa. Then they relented and citizens of certain "friendly" countries could travel without a visa. That didn't last long as since about October last year they only allow visa-free entry if you have a "machine readable passport" (MRP). I don't know about elsewhere but in Australia only a few older passports are not MRP.
However, there is now a move in Australia to issue biometric data encoded passports and that is being driven by future requirements of the US administration.

The debate at the European Parliament took place few months ago... See below for the press release of the Greens MEPs on this issue:




There are some stuff about biometrics on the european commission website (justice and home affairs):
http://europa.eu.int/comm/justice_home/doc..._studies_en.htm

Beril - you might know my mums cousin Penny. She was Peter Hain's assistant for years!
He might wear Versace Martyn but he still does the shopping in Tesco at the end of my mum and dad's road in Neath!

I shop in Tescos. More often than I'd like but I do. The bastards built a 24 hour jobby right by Junction 4 of the M42 with a filling station too. It'd be insane not to use it.
Contrary to popular belief I am not insane.

If I was on the kind of salary Peter is on I'd probably wear versace suits as well.
(In truth I've no idea who makes his suits. He might get them at M & S for all I know)
Thing is I rather hope that I wouldn't ditch my principles for a nice bit of smutter.

What I can't understand is why someone who fought against an oppressive regime for the people of his homeland now wishes to inflict a similar one on us.



True the UK won't be like 60's and 70's SA not by any stretch but who knows what might happen in future.

I am still waiting patiently for someone to explain to me in simple terms why we need to carry compulsory ID cards.
Just to reiterate for the umpteenth effing time: We already have the opportunity to avail ourselves, should we so desire, of numerous forms of ID which we may or may not carry with us.

We don't need them.
They are a form of keeping tabs on law abiding subjects who have nothing to hide and who never do anything remotely illegal from one day to the next.
Should the requisite bills be passed, every law abiding subject will go out and get one like a good little subject and the criminal fraternity, such as it is, won't bother.
The police will then be able to keep tabs on you, me and my auntie Ethel but still be nonthewiser about the scum sucking filth that traffic drugs, women and children.
And the gov will rake in a nice little earner as we all shell out 35 quid for a card.

Ker-fucking-ching!

If carrying an ID card was COMPULSORY ,then it would be very easy to spot the criminals and lowlife.They would be the ones that unlike auntie Ethel WOULD NOT be able to produce a valid card on demand,and if they did produce a card,it would be much easier for the police to determine the risk or otherwise of that person.

Let me say that i am in favour of a compulsory ID card.Any scheme that is just voluntary would be a waste of time.

As a lowlife, I think this would be bad.

i'm so low i haven't even got a life

KLF
How do you feel about the 'Audit Trail' of every ID Card transaction.
For example if once in your life you visited a GUM Clinic (not that I'm saying you have) a permanent record of this would be kept for the rest of your life on your government file on the National Identity Register.
Now if this info got into the wrong hands!

Black Cloud

I don't need an ID Card, I know who I am.

First statement in bold: How?!?

How does a piece of plastic in your wallet immediately identify someone as a criminal? What if you're smart enough to have never been caught for anything, how will the magic plastic shackle identify you as a criminal then? How is it going to make spotting criminals and lowlife very easy.

Second statement in bold:

Like Driving Licences and Passports. They are voluntary, if you want to carry one with you, you can, and hardly a waste of time.

They're not needed KLF, the whole project is a drain on public resources and a form of control that goes beyond what is required for security in this country.

In relation to the US insisting that 'friendly countries' have a form of biometric ID card and/or MRP, IMHO I think we should start thinking about the US not as a super power, but as a fascist empire which is placing a strangle hold on the world [I think they learnt it from the British, French and Dutch].

We have yet to see how far they are going to take this...

As of yesterday we have the, latest, price on the table. £6 billion for the system and a £100 each all for something that will not do any of the things it is being introduced to do. Indeed, according to the Home Office they are not designing this system as anti crime/terror/ fraud system. So what is it for?

KLF, how about a comment on the 'Audit Trail' and the costs.

Black Cloud

I don't need an ID Card, I know who I am and I' tell you if I think you need to know.

So the LSE has forecast that the cards will probably top £300 each and it transpires that they are only going to be voulentary after all.

So, KLF, please justify them now.

There was a very interesting column about ID cards by Matthew Parris in the Times this weekend. Bit long to post here in it's entirity, but here's a snippet plus link to the rest. Never mind the argument as to whether or not these things will work - I think his view of the bigger picture is commendable.


"We must acknowledge the potential benefits. This really would be a weapon against crime, wouldn’t it? It really would help to combat fraud, tax evasion, illegal immigration, even disease. In short, I accept that compulsory ID cards could one day, and at a reasonable cost, make me safer, more law-abiding and more secure. And still I oppose them. I oppose them because evasion, deceit, even crime, and the irregular organisation of one’s own affairs, are part of a citizen’s weaponry of last resort against State oppression. They are weapons I may never need, but I need to know they are there. That as a potential victim of fraud, crime and disorder I will — by hampering the Government’s efforts to crack down on these things — pay a price, I freely acknowledge. Government efficiency is not something of which I can truthfully say “the more the better”. It contributes to my security in the very deepest sense to know that in the last resort there are places I could hide. It contributes to my confidence in the future of liberty to know that no government will have at its disposal every weapon it needs to seek its enemies out. As a slogan, “Give me inefficiency!” hardly matches the majesty of “Give me liberty!” but thank heaven that the Free French, Nelson Mandela and Alexander Solzhenitsyn faced inefficient states. Yes, ID cards could work. That is why I hate them."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly...1630842,00.html



The whole idea makes me shudder, frankly.

According to some home office minister on You & Yours today on Radio4 the ID card will not be compulsory, nor will it be an offence to not carry it.
The police will not be allowed to demand its production.

They will only ask for it after you've been arrested and charged.

Yep! Charged.

Apparently a biometric ID card will make it much easier for the police to confirm, following your arrest and being charged, that you are who you say you are.
As we all know it's nigh on impossible to check on the identity of the majority of UK subjects who have bank accounts, criminal records, passports, driving licences, jobs and homes. Its fucking anarchy out there I tell you! The police don't stand a chance.

He chuntered and waffled and gave the wooliest of answers to the qustions posed.

This is so fucked up it almost makes me ill with gnawing pent up frustration and rage that the plan, the bill, the white paper, trundles along seemingly unopposed, welcomed even, by the public.

YOU FUCKING NUMPTIES!

WAKE UP!

Well said Martyn.

19275 Cloud B.

It will be voluntary initially.Mostly to appease people like youself,but the plan is to make it compusory within 5 years of the scheme starting.Thats the assurance i got from friends of 'contacts' in the home office.Typical Labour,treating the public like schoolchildren and only telling them half the story.

So KLF, do you really want a government that tells lies to look after your personal info.
Incidently my 'contacts' at the Home Office tell me that the system is not being designed as an anti terror, crime or fraud tool but rather as a data logging system on the population, complete with an in built monitoring function via its 'Audit Trail'.
Any comments on the 'Audit Trail' built into the system?

Black Cloud

I'm doing nothing wrong, that's why I don't need an ID Card.

I have to say, guys, this thread has really made me change my mind about I.D. cards. I really wasn't opposed to them at first, but you've convinced me. The whole plan sounds like an Orwellian nightmare. It's governmental control run amok.

I wasn't opposed to them at first, because in the U.S. there is a defacto I.D. system in the form of drivers' licenses and state I.D.'s -- no law requires you to have one (if you don't drive), but so many agencies and corporations require them, that you just need to get one to function. However, nobody tracks them, you don't get in trouble, really, if you don't keep up with address changes (I've had the same address on mine for 15 years, and haven't lived at that address in 17 years), they didn't used to cost very much (don't know about now), and generally weren't openly abused by any governmental agency. It's just a form of I.D., relatively difficult to replicate, and gives police something to ask for when somebody is behaving in an anti-social way, which I really don't have a huge problem with, to be honest.

Here's a vignette for those of you who like America-bashing: A month ago I'm visiting my mother in Texas. We have to do something at the bank, and the teller asks for two forms of I.D. No problem -- I've got my drivers' license and my passport with me. She looks at the passport blankly and asks very politely, "Do you have anything else? A credit card perhaps?"

They have more faith in Mastercard than in an international document signed by a representative of the government, laced with about 5,000 forms of conterfeit-defeating safety mechanisms.

Never ceases to amaze me.

Any comments on the 'Audit Trail' built into the system?


Only one.

Bugger.

Can you quicky explain how this 'audit trail' will work,and what proof there is that it will be incorperated into the I.D card scheme.

I had my photo taken at work the other day.

It's to be incorporated in, bet you can't guess.

Oh you!

That's right! An ID card.

The clever people of the EU have decided that in future all people who have a significant (?) role in the manufacture and distribution of chemicals (presumably the toxic and/or dangerous kind - which is all of them) must carry ID.

I wondered aloud how this might help in the war on terror.

The Police frequently, as if in some kind of quota filling frenzy, stop and inspect vehicles displaying orange rectangles front and rear. Any vehicle which falls under ADR regs has to display such signage. Anyway, the folowing scenario was used as an example of how I might employ my shiny new ID.

If a policeman indicates that I should stop and be inspected I am to remain in my vehicle, with the doors locked, and hold my ID card up against the window.

He will then contact my employer who will confirm that I am carrying out their legitimate business. He will then hold his own ID against the cab window for my inspection and when I'm happy (Of course I am expert at spotting the difference between a genuine Police ID and a forged one), I will open the door and allow him or her access.

This measure is clearly designed to put a stop to the thousands of incidents that plague the country and the chemical industry every day.
The almost constant hijacking of chemical carrying vehicles by terrorists posing as policemen driving cars that for all the world look just like , well, police cars, which is out of control and threatening the very fabric of society.

So my list thus far is:

1 Passport. Barcoded EU type.
2 Driving licence. Two part document comprising A4 size document listing the classes of vehicles I am entitled to drive, my name and address and any endorsements I might have. Plus a small credit card sized ID card with my photo, driver number and classes listed.
3 Forklift truck licence/ID card. Card with photo and details of forklift trucks on which I have been trained and deemed competent.
4 ADR licence. Aquired after five day course designed to ensure that I am competent to handle hazardous materials and transport them by road. Issued ONLY after passing an Exam.
5 HSE Fit test ID card with my photo and the type of respirator I can wear.
6 Bank statements going back eight years for this address as well as credit card statements and untility bills all going back eight or more years.
7 Various registration documents for my vehicles listing the make, model and my name and address.
8 Sainsbury's Nectar and to my eternal shame Tesco Clubcards which probably say more about my personal life than any of the other things put to gether.

And now another ID card to protect me from fake coppers bent on nicking my truck and its contents.

I can't wait for my first opportunity to refuse to open my window, let alone the door, of my truck next time I get stopped by plod.
It will be such fun as the rain buckets down and the officer of the law attempts to hold on to a vestige of good temper whilst I yell semi audible claptrap about reading my ID and phoning up my firm.
But if this is what must be done in order that we prevail in the war against those who would bring to an end our way of life and render our society chaotic and terrifying then so be it.

I wonder. Had all Iraqis been issued with ID cards would they be better off than they are now?

Martyn, that's a lot of ID to carry around, but still it wont be accepted unless you carry two recent utility bills with you!

But surely as a matter of principle Martyn,you should refuse to carry one of these 'Chemical' I.D cards (and hang the consequences), just as you say you would do with a national I.D card.

The 'Audit Trail' is a permanent record of every time you use your ID Card and of every time your National Identity Register file is accesed.
So, if you go for an hospital appointment a record of the time, date, department and hospital will be kept.
It is in Schedule 1 of the bill currently before Parliament.
Now consider this. If you turn up for the above appointment and the system is down, do you get to see someone or do you go back on the waiting list? After all to get non emergency hospital treatment you must be able to identify your self, so no system no ID.

Black Cloud

ID Cards are for criminals and wrong doers therefore I don't need one.