I've answered your repeated questions on why i am in favour of an ID cards, a lot better than you've just answered this Question.

Martyn, i've been 'saving time and effort' in replying to you're posts for years.

Here I am again, agreeing with tories.
They still want ID cards which I don't but we share many of the same reservations.

BBC report HERE.

Like me, the UK information commissioner Richard Thomas wants an answer to one simple question.

Just exactly what will the biometric ID cards be used for?

More here.

Blunkett and the rest of the scare mongerers will not be happy until they know where every single one of us is and what we're doing.

Well they can stop me in the street and ask me but other than that they can go and fuck themselves.

Attacking soveriegn states and spying on your population.

Who else has done this in the past?
Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, the Stazi, Saddam.
Why would I vote for a politician who wants to behave in the same way?

In a similar vein - does anyone else think the fact there is now an edited electoral roll, available to whoever is willing to pay for it, just a little bit worrying?
Fortunately, my housemate and I spotted the "tick if you do not want to appear" section and duly ticked.
The idea that via our local authority anyone can buy the list and send you all the crap they want to is beyond me, if they're doing this already, whats to stop them doing this with the info from the ID cards?

I believe the electoral roll has always been for sale.

You can read it in your library.

It's only recently (since 97) that the opt out has been available.

(Might be wrong on this but highly unlikely )

You most probably are Dickie - no problem with people having access to it, just that it can be bought for commercial gain.

I totally concur.

Indeed.
Information is of as much use to a commercial enterprise as it is to a government.
Your biometric info WILL be sold in future.
Politicians who tell you that it will not are either lying or are deluding themselves.

recently the labour government in the uk said they had plans to make every citizen carry a identification card at all times with age, name, address and phone numbers. i think this is going to far, and i dont know if this is true but i had it would be te law to show anyone who asked to see the card, to show them it. now this is just invading privacy. i really think the labour party are turning into dictators also they have won many elections in a row but i have met no-one who ever votes labour. is there anyway to have a poll on here? find out who actaully votes labour and it would be true instead of the risk of false counting and stuff...hmm i have ran out of things to say.

stay on the ice dudes.....

Hello Mark14.
Welcome to the forum.

There are lots of lefties on here but most of us hate NEW labour with as much passion as we supported Labour.
Some numpties actually voted for Bliar - More than once!
I was one of them.

If you go Here you can see what some of us thought/think about the introduction of ID cards and the nasty fascist who's pushing for them.

Splice please Tobemeister!

Its late but has any body mentioned that Syntegra (part of BT) are making these ID cards ad have all the sytems up and running ready for introduction vvvsoon

sorry, i didnt realise there was already another topic on it.





Stay on the ice.

Well, you're almost right Dickie. I'm pretty sure it's only in the last two years that you've been able to opt out of the version which is for sale, previously anybody could buy it.

Now, if you have chosen to opt out you won't be on the edited register, which anybody can buy and use for any purpose. Only selected people/organisations can have a copy of the full register and the purposes for which they can use it are strictly controlled. But anybody can still inspect a copy of the full register.

Probably too much info, but I do the canvass every year which is how I know.

Here are six major points Blunkett asserts will derive from ID cards.

# Prevent illegal immigration: Lack of a card means illegal immigrants think they can arrive and disappear
# Prevent illegal working: They give employers a secure way of knowing if people are actually allowed to work. It’ll be easier to prosecute employers who break the law.

Like all illegal immigrants in the past, those in future will be totally flummoxed by the new rules and completely give up on the idea of entering the UK without a valid ID card.
Dodgy employers, pimps, drug dealers and arms smugglers will also be put out of business overnight by the insurmountable problems thrown up by the necessity to employ only ID card carying workers.

# Aid anti-terrorism measures: It’ll be harder for terrorists and organised crime rings to use false and multiple identities

Yeah..right. Terrorists and the mafia are notoriously weak when it comes to getting round things like ID card requirements.


# Tackle identity theft: They’ll help protect against identity theft

Blimey! Could it be that the Blunkett is onto something?
Yep! Mrs Goggins will be absolutely positively certain beyond any reasonable doubt that it really is Gladys from number 83, The Parade, collecting her pension.
I mean to say! It could have been an imposter coming in here for the last 23 years.

# Reduce benefit fraud and abuse of public services: They will ensure that public services are only used by those entitled

Have you ever tried getting a benefit?
They'll find umpteen ways to deny you a penny before they ever get round to asking you who you are.

# Enhance sense of community: ID cards will create a sense of shared citizenship and belonging.

Fucking hell?

I say Blunkers old bean the country seems to lack a sense of shared citizenship and belonging. I'll help Georgie boy invade another country and see if a war doesn't do the trick.

18 months later...

Well that went totally tits up...can you think of anything?

Martyn - I agree that those are pretty lame reasons in favour of ID cards. But what are the very good reasons for not having one ? Please use the same format as you used above. Do not write on both sides of the paper at the same time. You have 30 minutes.

Against identity cards: Opponents say that identity cards won’t improve security. They will:

* Worsen harassment of ethnic minorities: They’ll provide another pretext for stop-and-search, often directed at ethnic minorities
* Have little impact on counter-terrorism: Sophisticated terror networks would soon be able to produce counterfeit cards or papers enabling people to get legitimate cards
* Have little effect on illegal working: Employers who are already willing to break the law won’t be put off by identity cards
* Lead to ‘function creep’: The functions of the card will grow over time as it stores more personal information. More people could demand to see it, effectively making it compulsory to carry one
* Lead to loss of privacy: There will be a massive database containing an unprecedented amount of personal information on people
* Be costly and impractical: There is scepticism about the cost and operability of the scheme, as well as the government’s ability to manage the technology


I was going to address each point as per previous post but can't be arsed since I've ranted about the darn things so much from the beginning of the thread and I should be in bed right now, however I would like to draw attention to the "function creep" issue.

Those people who believe that once issued/accepted on the basis of assurances from one such as Tony "the missiles will be flying in 45 minutes" Blair the cards will be beneficial and benign must ask themselves if they also believe that future administrations will not increase the amount and type of data stored on the card.

These things are not benign, not beneficial to anybody, any individual other than a law enforcement officer (and even they have deep reservations), but are vital to a restrictive repressive regime determined to control every possible facet of the way we lead our lives.

No ID? No vote.
No ID? No bed for the night.
No ID? No fuel.
No ID? No money.
No ID? No food.
No ID? No right of way.
No ID? No identity. You're a non person. Nothing. A nobody. A threat to society.

Its said that over 80% of the UK population are in favour of this measure.

And we call the Americans stupid because they voted for a slightly more right wing president than the democratic nominee.

The Stasi and the Gestapo knew what ID cards meant.
What is the matter with you people?

So we'll put you down as a "No", then.

Martyn,Dec 1 2004, 11:13 PM]
Against identity cards: Opponents say that identity cards won’t improve security. They will:

As most of the activities such illegal working and terrorism are carried out by people from 'ethnic minorities' it will be inevitable that this is the group that the government would most want to see carry ID cards. That's dealing with reality. it not harassment for the sake of harassment. I would have no objection to being asked to produce my ID card everytime i came into contact with a officer of the law.



Totally dissagree with this statement. Terrorists are in general not highly sophisticated. Even if they were.These cards would be vurtually impossible to fake.That's. why the scheme will be relatively expensive.



Fair point about employers. But at least those illegal workers would be less likely to continue working long term in the country. Because there would be a greater chance of them being found,once ID cars are in use.





Totally dissagree on this one.It would be easy to put in place strict limits as too the information allowed to be shown on the ID cards and how that could be used.You give away more imformation about yourself everytime you apply for store cards/credit cards,or even evreytime you register with shopping websites.Also,i think the fact that when you apply for car insurance on-line.You only have to put in the first part of your house number and part of your post code for the company to instantly know who you,where you live,how old you are,what your occupation is..etc.



That information will only be .Who you are. Your current address. How old you are.... Nothing that anyone should be afraid to reveal.



Thats my biggest concern. I hear its probably going to cost about 40 per person for the ID card (still less than a passport though). The difference is that passports are not compulsory. Looking at the fines being proposed though. Up to £1250 for failing to carry an ID card. Up to a £1000 for failing to inform the ID sceme of a house move. I presume this money will help finance the scheme. (Martyn,it could get very expensive for you if you decide to dig your heels in and not carry a card.)




Then make sure that what 'can and connot' be carried on an ID card is set in stone from the outset.So that no individual or residing government can't tamper with the process. Its surely not that hard to do.

But i bet you are in favour of government telling us how we should lead our lives when you agree with it. Like public transport policy. Smoking bans. Bans from smacking your children. That is all about 'contolling' our lives. But you accept it because you feel it benifit's us a whole. I feel ID cards will benifit us a a whole.




You didn't think that your views would ever tally with popular opinion did you, Martyn.

And despite the widespread use of ID CARDS for the purpose, amongst others, of reducing the risk of terrorist attack.

And that would still be a NO

Dear Aussie chums feel free to correct any or all of this...

Bloke on the radio the other day intimated that when the Australian government set out plans for a compulsory ID card scheme something like 90% of those questioned were in favour.
The implications of what might happen to an otherwise law abiding person who forgot to carry the card eventually ate away at that figure and the nail was driven into the coffin of the manifestly ill thought out scheme when the gov had to own up to how much it was going to cost to set up and administer.

Of those questioned the figure dropped to 10% in favour.

Those figures sound a bit rubbery, Martyn.

I thought they might be.
They were quoted in an interview by some punter discussing what chance the massive pile of new legislation might have if Blunkett gets the chop and we have to have a new Home Sec.
He thought that without Blunkett at the helm the ID cards agenda might get the chop early based on the Aussie experience, whereupon he trotted out those poorly remembered (by me) figures.

I saw that you'd replied and got my hopes up thinking you'd have chapter and verse for me. Rather crestfallen now.

Spose I'd better go off and google around.

(but not now... it's bed time)

Nighty night.

Martyn - you might have lots of fun on this site.

Meanwhile in Australia ID cards are still an issue. Personally I would find them a blessing as people would stop confusing me with a Pommy Bastard who sells skiing holidays in Europe

I'm always being mistaken for that hairy little fat man from New Zealand who makes those long films about goblins.

Maybe a card would fix that. It wouldn't so much need to be an ID card as one that I could hold up with the words 'Fuck Off' printed on it in large letters.

ID cards? such an expense. Surely it would be much easier if we had nice bar codes tattooed on our foreheads, visible to one and all and scannable by the authorities...


really KLF, i find your reasoning short sighted in the extreme. Basically ID cards have done nothing to stop terrorism in other countries, go look,there's a lot to check from, nearly all "western" style nations force their citizens to carry them.

Please can I be there when you lose you ID card and watch as you are draged off the petrol forecourt by authorities as an "undesirable non ID'd threat" ...

While I agree with you about intrusive "nanny" (now turning more big brother blunkett)
government - long may they not look up my bum for my own "safety" - on the subject of ID cards i'm afraid not.

The question of I.D. cards is no different from any other question whether it's nuclear technology, genetic modification of foods, DNA testing etc.

All science is, in itself, neutral. What is important is who controls the science.

As long as we have capitalism then we have all these scientific developments in the hands of a small number of billionaires who will implement these scientific developments in their own interests, i.e. to make profits for themselves. They have no interest in any benefits to "humanity". They make decisions only on the basis of short-term profit for themselves.

The British ruling class want I.D. cards as as an extension of social control.

It has nothing to do with terrorism. The terrorists who attacked the USA 3 years ago would have had no problem getting I.D. cards. The IRA would have had no problem getting I.D. cards nor Basque terrorists, Timothy McVeigh or any other terrorists. This argument by those who support I.D. cards is totally false.

Socialists should oppose the introduction of I.D cards because it is just another weapon in the armoury of the ruling class to control the working class.

100% in agreement with you Paulr.
(as you will have perhaps gathered from my previous posts)

I've looked on the .gov site and other places to find answers to my questions and I'm afraid answers there are none.

If, as mr blunkett says, the cards will hold only basic information like my DOB, address, oh and my name! plus a photo, rather like my curretn driving licence and my passport, why do I need an ID card.
Why do I need a biometric card with a chip that can be updated with further information after insertion into a reader/writer and be compelled by law to carry it?

Paulr knows the answer and has given it above.
I know the answer.
Blunkett knows the answer and won't tell because he knows also that it will be distinctly unpopular with the electorate.

Demand of your MP, why must everybody carry such a card?
Remind them that you already have the possibility of holding two forms of ID that satisfy the criteria. Name, Address, DOB.

I would like to be completely off base about this whole ID card thing but I don't think I am. For me its an acceleration toward the end my personal freedoms and human rights. Its the begining of Orwell's vision of the future.
A future in which you cannot do anything even so inoccuous as going to a public restroom without a national database registering your activity and its location.
Somebody will know or be able to find out where you were every minute of evrey day and what you were doing.

The average law abiding citizen, "who has nothing to hide" will be monitered for the rest of his or her life.
The criminal or terrorist will find umpteen ways to avoid the eyes of big brother and for the most part will succeed.

Does this mean that ID cards will have failed in their intended purpose?
Of course not. They will be doing exactly what they are designed to do.

The only people to fear ID cards are those that have something to hide,and those that sympathise with those that have something to hide.

klf - as you are an acknowledged expert on WW2 - just imagine you are a jew in Nazi Germany. Now read your post again, out loud.

what a load of bollocks.

i have nothing to hide. i don't sympathise with criminals or terrorists. yet i fear ID cards.

You are comparing Nazi Germany with todays free democratic tolerant Britain.Read YOUR post out loud, mate.

Why do you fear them.?

i have told you that somewhile ago in this thread, why i am uncomfortable with ID cards. why not read back?

anyway, the statement wasn't made in order for you to ask me a question.

it was made to point out that not only people who have something to hide or sympathise with criminals or terrorists are against ID cards. which was an assumption you made earlier.

I don't know too much about ID cards but I think I'd be in favour of them if they could stop, say, benefit fraud but they're not going to, are they? The information contained wil go too far for some people but not far enough to actually stop crime. The only people giving all the correct information will be the ones who have 'nothing to hide' and then we'll be the ones pursued for the £3.50 discrepancy on council tax for the last time we moved house, (okay, I made that up but you get the gist), while the real criminals will lie through their teeth and still go undetected. I'm sure a black market for ID cards will soon spring up too plus all the associated crime it'll bring with it.

i'm not so sure it IS so free and democratic anymore klf. This socialist government of ours seem to think they know best for us on how we should lead our lives, and are increasingly trying to regulate and control more and more of it "for our own good". One govt minister even went so far recently to say something along the lines of she believes that "the nanny state is a good thing" . Allied to this is the Govts attack on the checks and balances that are in place to stop it becoming overbearingly powerful...

so coming back to I.D cards,what i'm trying to say is an I.D. card (a) helps this government "regulate" us more and ( WILL NOT WORK!!! how can it? criminal gangs will be churning out cloned cards by the bucketful, think of the massive market for them.

who said this? and what did they say, exactly?


i missed that particular bit of news!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4044815.stm

Do you live in Cuba, Jennie? And I thought you were talking about the not remotely socialist Blair's Britain for a minute. Silly me!

lol is that "not socialist" in the same way "Margaret Thatcher wasn't a real woman?"

I think they are, they certainly purport to be. Just that its a bit confusing as they have become so authoritarian with it!

wouldn't mind going to Cuba for my Hols actually, before George W invades there too and builds holiday inns all over it.


completely off at a tangent - has anyone tried this?? I appear to be the dalai lama...

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Curiously enough so do I

thanks for the link, jennie.

But do you really think the British government is socialist, Jennie?

hmm.. i think on reflection i would have to call them "post-socialist"....

I heard another former socialist turned national socialist on the Today prog this morning.
Des Brown trotted out half a dozen excellent reasosn why ID cards won't be the big mistake those of us who are agaisnt them are convinced they'll be.

He reminded his audience that we already have photo driving licences, passports, national insurance cards and on and on he went sounding for all the world like me trying to convince someone that ID cards are completely and utterly pointless.

He says they won't be compulsory. That the police will have to have a very good reason to ask to see them, (the guy is obviously an alien from planet Delusion) and that people who do not have proper permissions will not be allowed to access the info on the card.

So again.

My question remains.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY FOR?

I think the answer you're looking for Martyn is "because they can".

a governments dream, being able to keep tabs on every taxable plebian!

These evil fuckers say we who oppose ID cards are guilty of woolly thinking.
So what's this?



In other words we'll be subject to the dictats of a totalitarian police state.



If you don't have your licence with you when plod asks to see it you have something like ten days to produce it at a police station of your choice.
Hands up anybody who thinks that the same law will not be extended to the ID card.

Lie down for this and in 50 years time babies will be barcoded in the delivery room.

Don't be ridiculous... there'll be something much better than barcodes by then

While I sympathise with your fears, and completely respect the British determination to hang onto their freedoms, I think you cannot look at this out of context. They're not inventing the wheel, here. Virtually every European nation requires their citizens to have identification, as does the US, and so far none have turned into Nazi Germany.... um, except Nazi Germany of course, but you get my point. Nazi Germany wasn't Nazi Germany because of ID cards. They'd have been quite ruthless invaders and killers without ID. In the US your are sort of/kind of required to have an ID, in that you cannot cash a cheque or do anything at a bank or even use a credit card without first proving that you're you. The fact that there's so much trust implicit in the British system both impresses and worries me. Having had my wallet nicked three times in five years, it does occur to me that it would be good if people couldn't use my credit card without showing a photo ID proving that they're me. Or cash a cheque made out in my name.

I do not think that the government has the money, the room or the time to put every law-abiding British citizen in jail -- purely on a logistical basis, that doesn't make sense. So I just don't think that's going to happen. And if they wanted to do it, they wouldn't need an ID card in order to make it happen.

ID cards are, really, simply a way to prove you're you.

Will the cards be used against illegal immigrants? I'm sure they will. It happens in the US all the time. I've been in restaurants when the INS guys swooped in and scooped up the entire kitchen staff and bused them off to be shipped back to Latin America. And they were able to separate the legal from illegal immigrants based on their identification. That's very harsh, but it is arguably the way the system is supposed to work.

And, finally, with the greatest of all possible respect to the socialists among you, are you actually trying to tell me that a socialist government wouldn't have ID cards? I think they would be the first to have them. What on earth would they have against them. Socialists have never been known for clinging to individual freedoms and privacy rights.