whoops

Priceless

If you look back through my posts, you will see that i never said i backed 'Labour's' proposed ID scheme. I said i backed an 'effective ID scheme.'

If Dickie is correct in saying that 'Legal immigrants/Legal worker's' won't be included in the scheme, then the effect of reducing illegal immigration and Human trafficing will be nullified. I may even have to withdraw my support for 'their' scheme,if that's the case.

I still maintain that a properly introduced ID card would have a benifical effect on this country.

Trust this government to balls-up a good idea.

Sure, if you ask each and every inhabitant of the UK each and every day do show their ID card.

Why do you continue to post in this thread KLF?

Theories as to your motivation in posting anywhere on the forum generally seem to be that you are simply here to "wind up the lefties".

You are not making anybody angry.
You are certainly irritating the shit out of one or two members.

I find your posts and opinions to be predictable, unimaginative and boring.
The same accusation could obviouly be levelled at a liberal lefty. Except the unimaginative part. In my case I think over imaginative might be a valid crticism, eh MW?

You can be funny though. Thanks for the " Obviously i would only back the innitative if it was going to be effective in improving crime and fraud in Britain." comment.
That tiny faux pas will secure your place in Forum history to be sure.

But I'm still waiting.
You have still not given a compelling argumant for the intro of ID cards.
I have some sympathy as a matter of fact.
Why? Well you are in the same boat as Blunkett and Blair.

You, like them, can't come up with a compelling argument or reason for ID cards, because there aren't any.

Show me I'm wrong.

I do however feel that apart from in this sentence right now, I'll never have to type the words..." I'm sorry KLF, on the subject of ID cards you were spot on and I didn't have a clue".

As this givernment AND the majority of the UK population are in favour (in principal) of the introduction of ID cards. Isn't it up to those that oppose it,like you, to come up with 'a compelling arguement' against it.

Also, i find it a bit rich to be accussed of being 'predictable' on this forum.

What is the British Nazi Party position on ID cards.

What was i saying about being 'predictable'.?

Predictable ... he bites every time ...

I'm not the only one.

show me some evidence that the majority of the population are in favour.

i think martyn has quite clearly stated his reasons for not wanting id cards. if you are not finding his argument compelling, then counter it with something other than your own diatribe.

..and..you are totally predictable, KLF. you opose anything that the left wing stands, for don't you?

are you a member of the BNP, KLF?
The Labour Party?
The Conservative Party?
The Greens?

what IS your political standpoint?

I voted Labour in the last election, and Tory in the one before that.

[quote=nevski,May 8 2004, 03:12 PM] [QUOTE=the klf,May 8 2004, 01:36 PM]

i think martyn has quite clearly stated his reasons for not wanting id cards. [/quote]
And i have already stated my reasons for 'wanting' them.

All UK citizens have the right to vote for who they want - that's democracy ...



What was the question again?

http://www.barrysheerman.labour.co.uk/View...e.cfm?Page=8496




I've found loads more 'polls' if you want them.

errr.. a labour website, promoting a labour initiative.. shock horror KLF.. what an amazing thing!


congratulations on backing up your statement with some facts. at last.

will you vote labour again? i know i won't.

[quote=the klf,May 8 2004, 04:37 PM]
[/QUOTE]
http://www.barrysheerman.labour.co.uk/View...e.cfm?Page=8496




[/quote]
AAAArgh caught me again you little scamp!

the evidence doesn't show that the majority of the population wants them... it shows that the majority of the people in HUDDERSFIELD want them..


F-

must try harder KLF...

http://www.vnunet.com/News/1137657


Asi said, plenty more polls if you want them.

btw, KLF, i didn't say i disagreed with your assumption, i just wanted you to give me evidence. it's part of your training see?

let me check the poll, and get back to you.


***getting back to you... ***

80% in favour of the card.. excellent work well done. one small caveat (sp?) read these 5 small words...



I'm sure that was an exceptionally impartial and fair survey eh?


*************************************************************

do you agree with me however, that your huddersfiled poll, was a pretty pointless one to find, as it didn't substantiate your argument at all?

that didn't suprise me.

or because the tories had swung too far right?

or because you don't trust bald people?

or because the labour party has become the party of the centre right?

or another reason?

Maybe one day you will except an answer for what it is,and not try to come back with some cutting comment all the time.....especially with one as weak as that.

aww, klf, i was only asking a question....

klf... you are just a wind up i know! but i'll make an exception (i take it that's what you meant by except an answer) of that answer and say you can't possibly be old enough to have voted in two elections

psssst. if klf isn't pippa he's her baby brother!

and that is the end of my exception the rule not to respond to wind ups!

normal service will now be resumed

I think you know i meant accept.

I was in a rush.


These bloody 'spelling fascists'.

It's ACCEPT...ACCEPT.

*shuffles off shaking head actually wishing Luther was back*

Edited because I couldn't spell "OFF"

Doh!

back on topic........ the chipped ID card ... if this government can break its duck of being able to get a system up and running properly ... has realms of possibilities that were unthinkable just a few short years ago. Therefore the argument put forward by btpia that ID cards have never been abused in the way we fear is not a good enough reason to accept them unreservedly now.


sitting on fingers ....

Nevski wrote...

Sadly, Nevski, he hasn't even done that.
It's bad enough that KLF ignores my pleas for a reasoned explanation of why ID cards would be a good thing for me, or my children or my parents, by ignoring my requests.
He compounds the folly by repeatedly saying that he has put forward an argument in favour when a cursory re read of the thread reveals this assertion to be a falsehood.
The only conclusion that I can draw is that KLF is not here to argue a case but simply to annoy the hell out of us.

( I'm neither annoyed nor angry. Irritated by the cavalier approach to grammar and spelling though. Can't help that. No apologies.)

I would be more than happy if KLF did rant about the subject.
In the course of the diatribe it may well be that a facet of the pro ID card argument may catch my eye and I will have to struggle to refute it.

That would get my interest going again but as of now I've nothing more to say to KLF because KLF seems to have nothing to say to me.

Out manoevered Martyn.


I posted at 7.05

You posted at 7.06


Whar ARE you talking about.

in a rush, but been logged on the forum for bloody hours posting the same olde shite.

i wouldn't believe you if you told me my trousers were on fire, klf.

acceptional

I've stated before that i feel ID cards will help to cut crime, Immigration,faud....etc. Just through the simple fact of making the 'identification' of people easier....You can't tell me that if everyone in Britain had to have an ID card(including 'legal' immigrants) it wouldn't be easier to weed out the 'illegals'.....Maybe that's the real reason your against it.

You have put forward a few valid reasons why having ID cards may prove a negative.

Cost
Abuse by poilce
Cards may be fakeable.


I think we understand eachother.

My computers always on ( broadband my friend) it dosn't mean i'm not doing other things.

are you suggesting that martyn is harbouring an illegal immigrant, or that he is pro illegal immigration?

oh, and theres that word again 'FEEL'

feel schmeel.

I'm going to give this one last go because we seem to have a shred of a possibility here.



You have indeed. Many times. But just like Blunkett and Blair you cannot or will not illustrate why or how crime will be cut should every living soul over 18 be required by law to have one of these cards.
The potential for abuse is limitless.
Examples of how you think the ID card will be an improvement over the existing methods of establishing a persons identity, are non existent.



It will indeed make it possible for a police officer to ask for the card, be presented with it and then ask no further questions. You're either OK or going to jail.
If you start to speak it means he'll have to interact and thats just wasting his time and energy and he doesn't want that. So by talking to him you've begun to piss him off and he might just have to teach you a lesson in manners.
That's another of my flights of fancy to be sure, but I'm prepared to augment my arguments with possible scenarios that illustrate how the abuse of ID cards might pan out.

Please don't try to deny that our boys in blue wouldn't do such a thing. That would be an even greater flight of fancy than my own. Besides which coppers in the UK have chased down completely innocent civilians, who ran believing they were being pursued by muggers, stopping with a huge sigh of relief on realising that the pursuer is a policeman only to be sat on and punched repeatedly by the person employed by the state to uphold law and order. The action was captured for all the world to see on CCTV installed by the police...to aprehend persons involved in violent disorder.



I can tell you that if everyone in the UK had to have an ID card by law it would not make the slightest difference to crime prevention or detection.
Lazy stupid coppers would have a field day every day "doing" people for not carrying their card. Respect for law and order and those employed to uphold it would diminish faster than a fast thing, especially amongst ethnic and religious minorities.
Decent coppers would be completely unable to do their jobs as more and more people became beligerently un co-operative.
Crooks would have ID just the same as you and I and if the copper suspects any of us of a crime how does running the ID card help? He's still got to take us all in.

Honestley, think about it for more than a nanosecond and you'll see it for what it is.
A pathetic but sure fire attempt to secure the votes of wavering tory voters at the next election. If it happens and the card scheme goes ahead law and order, far from improving, will break down quicker than ever. The prisons will be so full of people like me and Dickie who refuse to pay our fines that real criminals will be out and about robbing your house, stealing your car and raping your sister. With impunity.


And finally...



Right back at ya old son.

What have the times that we posted got to do with anything at all?

I've just thought of something.

It's an idea to get you going and if I can think of one, you must be able to come up with dozens.

If all cars were fitted with biometric card readers connected to the vehicles power supply then only a person whose biometric data was contained on a chip in the reader would be able to start the engine.

Car theft cut by 100% in an instant.

But wait...

I've thought of something else.

Muggings in which the only thing stolen is ID just as you get out of the car goes up by 100%

Bugger.

I hear ya, man!

OK, so guess what! Do you know what happened? I lost all my ID cards! But a kind woman found them outside the Buddhist library (after I'd looked there) that I took a spill outside waiting for a pizza, and called me up and I went and got 'em! A great Mother's Day - not only rainy, but I won't have to replace everything afterall, just the credit cards I've cancelled. Woo-hoo! And thanks to you all for your early-warning, in case that's what it was - I can't say I'm not getting value-for-money out of this 'site!

So, I was thinking, Braggtopia's idea of a finger-print for everything (even credit?) isn't such a bad idea after all, given I'd be sure to lose mine on a yearly basis.

Exactly.

I can see why it would be convenient for a well adjusted responsible person like Braggtopia to have a "do-it-all" ID card.

But what about the rest of us irresponsible drunken twats?

Nolan, Nevski and I would be bankrupt in 6 months shelling out for new cards all the time.

Again, this wouldn't matter so much if our kind hearted government which after all only has our well being and interests at heart, was to pay for the cards.

your given to losing your fingerprint on a yearly basis?

... anyway..just imagine how much fun a retina or fingerprint mugging wil be!

will we be covered on the NHS for this new form of identity theft?

Nevski heads off again to sci-fi land....

Martyn, You seem to have a BIG problem with the police. Is it because of some past enconters with them,or is it just that they respresent authority and the Establishment.?

i will remind you of that comment when the first finger is chopped off at a cash point machine.

It's the retina scan I'm worried about. Haven't you seen Total Recall ?

yes, but im shit at remembereing what happened in a film!

lets hope they never start taking penis imprints

I'm always hoping somebody will

oops technical hitch... and i have only had one glass of wine ...

apart from losing all my cards on a regular basis some of you may recall i lost my fingerprint after a drunken accident with a corkscrew

will fingers become available on the black market like kidneys

and i haven't gor a penis .... will i be able to get an id card

Both.

You have a big problem with editing quotes and engaging in debate.

I will continue to post about the subject of ID cards from time to time.
But I will no longer respond to anything you post since you do not feel in the least bit compelled to answer my simple questions.
This isn't a tit for tat response. Its simply in order to save time and effort.

I have to say that while I am usually the one telling Martyn he needs to calm down a bit about the police being complete bastards, etc,
1) they sure do seem to give him a hell of a lot of good ammunition for his arguments.
2) considering his encounters with the police and how he was treated I can't say any reasonable person would feel much different than he does.

You won't find a nicer, more easygoing person on the planet than Martyn. If anything my biggest complaint about him is that he is sometimes TOO nice, to his own detriment.
I suppose giving Martyn a hard time on the few (but still too many) occasions he's had trouble is easier than going after someone who might actually shoot you or something.

But, as my friend Harry pointed out (who may well appear here soon as this is a subject he knows an awful lot about!), what about bricklayers and others who do manual labour jobs?
It's a known fact that after years of working with their hands, that bricklayers "lose" their fingerprints?
Would they be exempt from ID cards?

Thanks for the lovely introduction Sarah, your future as an MC is assured!

Some of the best coverage of the issues associated with ID cards can be found at The Register. It's a tech news site, but don't let that put off any non-techies... it's not all buzzwords and acronyms, I promise you. There is an index of their ID card stories here, but the must-read article is this one. It's long, but it really does summarise the issues very well.

I've always found that arguing privacy issues can be a bit like arguing about religion: it tends to come down more to deeply held beliefs than objective arguments. Fortunately for those who oppose ID cards there is a good, objective reason why they are a bad idea, one that even a politician can understand: they are a waste of money.

Blunkett has estimated that the total cost of the exercise will be £3.1 billion, but given government's history of Great IT Disasters we can expect the real cost to be at least twice that. For that sort of money you would expect to get something pretty damned effective, yet if you read the Register articles you'll see that the planned system won't identify anyone with 100% certainty; it won't do anything to reduce terrorism, organised crime or illegal immigration; it will only have a limited effect on benefit fraud; and it may even be illegal under EU law. Even if we accept that our civil liberties aren't being infringed and that all of our future governments will be benign enough to keep it that way, we are still faced with every man, woman and child in the country having to stump up over £100 each for something that won't do what it says on the tin.

I can think of better ways to blow £100.

Harry