Morning Numpty!

we keep repeating ourselves, because YOU DON'T LISTEN.

have a great may day.

Solidarity Brother.


sorry about the edit, up too early this morning!

It's true that in certain parts of my posts I have repeated myself.
It's also true that I have used my posts to illustrate the ways in which compulsory, highly advanced biometric ID cards can and will, in my opinion, be used to manipulate and control all aspects of the way we live in contravention of all that we hold dear in terms of freedom and individuality.

You, on the other hand, seem content to dismiss my arguments and comments out of hand instead of describing how you see the many ways in which such cards might be of benefit to you, your children or me and mine.

Perhaps, in twenty five or thirty years time you might reflect on this online discussion whilst you wait in line to find out if you are to be allowed into the game one Saturday bearing in mind you were apprehended by coppers whilst out with your mates a little the worse for wear celebrating the teams win the previous weekend. Just think how peaceful and pleasant the games will be when they can screen out every living soul they deem to be a potential drunken trouble maker.

Doesn't matter that you hadn't had more than a pint. You were there, they scanned you, you're a marked man.
I can feel a touch of the Minority Reports coming on.

I long for the day when I don't have to carry around a large wallet in my back pocket that is stuffed with at least a dozen plastic cards (credit, video, medical, donor, etc.) plus cash. It makes my arse look fat Please can somebody invent a method (thumb print or whatever) that allows me to identify myself in a universal manner to all who need to know. Thankyou.

P.S. Martyn, in this thread, is raving bonkers bananas

its your choice to belong to a video club. its your choice to have a credit card, its your choice to carry a donor card (and a good choice THAT is too), i don't think you will find that an ID crd will replace your huge wads of cash.... But it won't be your 'choice' to carry an I.D card... it will be blunkett's decision, and my fear (although as i have said before, i am still wavering on this one) is that the ID card will be used to big brother me.

try carrying your wallet in a jacket pocket. Try only carrying the cards around with you that you need at that particular time.

I think martyn is looking at the extremes of what is a possible outcome of having an ID card, but i think its a little unfair to say that he is being raving bonkers bananas. perhaps you can't see a world in which you get turned away from a vegetarian restaurant because you bought non fair-trade coffee in tesco last week, but i can! Scary isn't it?

No, it's not scary. It's called being a fuckin' drama queen.
Really, if the world I lived in had gone that far down the shitter I'd be up in the mountains armed to the teeth. ID cards wouldn't come into it.

(edited to be less Martynesque in my choice of ranting words)

ooh a drama queen eh? get you!


best buy yerself an OS map, and find a cave that you can live in.

But....on a slightly more serious note. Please name me one country in the world where they have gone to the lengths with ID cards that Martyn and Nevski are ranting about.
...in fact I'll make it even easier than that - name one currently existing country (and you have around 260 to choose from) where IDs have more information that name, sex, address and some kind of number (maybe a drivers licence number). Just one.

(edited because I felt like editing)

..so because it hasn't happened in another country, it won't happen in britain??


how does that argument work then?

You really want me to spell it out for you ?

1) You can't name one country that has gone to the extremes that you and Martyn have detailed.
2) There are some very extreme governments around the world but even they haven't gone anywhere near as far as you have proposed.
3) However wild and whacky you may believe the UK government to be the fact is that the UK is a deeply conservative place. If anything is going to happen it'll happen somewhere else first. With a 1000 years of history behind it you can take that as a fact.

will i be able to use my ID card for shopping

perhaps they are a good idea after all (but don't tell alberr )


actually that is pretty scary. I don't want tescos knowing how much i owe waitroses or my bank knowing how much i owe any of them!

Sorry, B'topia, just because it hasn't happened anywhere else, doesn't mean it can't/won't happen in the UK.

however much you 'spell it out for me'. (please don't start being all KLFy...)

Anyway let me just reply to each of your points

1) correct i cannot name one that has gone to the extremes. That doesn't preclude it ever happening in Britain though does it?
2)yes there are some pretty extreme governemtns arund the world, but not many with as much money and technology as the UK, which could possibly be why they haven't become 'big brother cards'
3)a 1000 years of history doesn't mean diddly. the world is an ever changing place, politicians with differing agendas come and go. so, how can i take that as fact?

I still remain undecided about ID cards, But i'm not going to just sit here and think think that there introduction will be wonderful and without need for serious contemplation.

I'm not quite as worked up about this as Martyn, but doesn't it concern you a little bit that the government is proposing to REQUIRE people to have ID cards which they must pay for, which is, as stated previously, a license to live essentially.

In the US if you don't have a driver's license you can get an ID card from the Department of Motor Vehicles which will serve the same function as a DL for ID. I think this is quite good as it provides a basic ID for people who don't drive. But you aren't required to have one, subject to fine if you dont.

And Braggtopia, do you trust any claim this government makes when it comes to civil liberties? I sure don't. This is the government who proposed taking asylum seekers' children into care if they failed in their bids for asylum. I guess that's much more important to take children away from loving, if traumatised families b/c they are poor, from the wrong country, and politically unpopular, rather than do something about the crisis in social services staffing in the UK which has allowed yet another child to be killed in spite of her involvement with social services.
(And I sometimes wonder if the ones who die aren't more fortunate than the ones who somehow manage to survive and just nearly die. Before anyone jumps on me, remember I work w/ people who have all been horrendously abused during their childhoods. You might say the same if you saw their incredibly scarred bodies and heard how incredibly painful their worlds still are. And I'm working with the ones who have access to good treatment and are trying their damndest to engage with it. I know that's a huge tangent--sorry.)

Btw, I'm replying to Braggtopia b/c he is an intelligent person who wants to discuss an issue
I think the troll isn't worthy of reply. He's clearly getting off on the attention and just using that to reinforce his pathetic world view and compensating for his sense of inadequacy.

Maria - thankyou for a more down to earth response. However the despicable treatment of asylum seekers in the UK (and in Australia) is not an ID card issue. The serious problem I've observed on this thread is that some people, particularly Martyn & Nevski, have wandered off into ridiculous flights of fancy with their suggestions as to what might happen in some sci-fi future with ID cards. You just make yourselves sound like raving monster loonies. The only way to debate this is to look at the here and now.
From my point of view - I have a driving licence which records my name, address, licence number, date of birth and has my photo on it. I also have a passport. I also have a medicare card which I need to present for any medical treatment, and credit cards, and so many other cards. I'd rather just have the one, and if possible do away with the cards altogether and rely on something like a thumb print.
If people in the UK don't want to have ID cards there is a very simple solution - don't carry one. Civil disobediemnce is a very powerful tool - just look at what happened to the Poll Tax. However, before it gets that far you could always try lobbying your local MP, but do try to stay away from the sci-fi conspiracy theories

I made this point myself some time ago.
My question then, just as it is now, is why do I need anything else?
If I must carry it by law, then issue it to me free.



Which would be all fine and dandy but I really can't see then the banks agreeing to this sort of thing. What would happen to their control over their money?
Also what safeguards would be in place to allow the bank or shop keeper seeing only the info he's entitled to see?

I rant because it makes me angry.
I feel betrayed too. By the likes of Blunkett and Blair.
They want similar controls over the people of the UK that were enjoyed by the apartheid regime of South Africa and the Third Reich.
It's not an exageration to suggest this.
If I can be fined 2,500 pounds for not carrying the bloody thing I don't want to live in a place like that.

Throughout history governments have imposed rules and regulations to control the behaviour of their citizenry. Each time it happens it is almsot always in response to a threat, real or percieved or imagined from some force bent on the destruction of our way of life and our liberty.
Years pass and the threat fades away to nothing if it had been anything in the first place that is. But the regulations remain.
Powers to detain people without trial, without recourse to legal representation.
Powers to stop and search.Powers to listen to phone calls, to read letters and now email.

These things were always in the armoury of the forces of law and order but over the years succesive administrations have given the police powers to undertake such actions without first having to go to a judge and explain why they want to take them.

Blunkett wishes to deny the people of the UK the right to trial by Jury in certain cases.
(sippery slope- thin end of wedge etc etc)
Blunkett proposes action against refuse asylum seekers as outlined by Maria.
Blunkett wants ID cards. Then biometric ID cards. Then suggests that they need to be compulsory.

Why?

I keep coming back to the same question.
Why do we need them?
What will holding them achieve and who will benefit?

So far the answers to such questions fall apart under mild scrutiny.

It occurs to me that at present the police can single out certain groups to be recipients of their particular attention by the simple expedient of looking to see what colour their skin is. How much more interesting for them in the future when absolutely everybody can be a potential target.

"You left it on the dressing table...gimme a break...face down on the ground...NOW!"

Lobby your MP!! - Now who's run off into the realms of sci-fi fantasy? I'm Sorry Braggtopia that is the best laugh I've had all week.

Talking of the Poll Tax

I applied for and received my first ever credit card since 1991. Not bad eh? I'm told CCJ's drop off your credit checks after 12 years.

A small price to pay for not paying my poll tax…

Older and much wiser - I won't be carrying an I.D. card either.

The reason I bring asylum seekers into this is that it is just one of many shameful and disgusting examples of the current government's complete disregard for personal liberties and basic decencies. Besides bleating over and over "but you'll be safer from terrorists if we have it!" they've done nothing to explain how and why this will be so.
The reason, I think, is simple. Its because it not true. We won't be safer. It's all a load of crap.

And I'm still very concerned about the idea of fining people who don't carry it. I have to have my driver's liscence with me in the US when I drive. Fair enough. But I don't have to carry it with me if I walk to the grocery store or take the dog out for a stroll. The idea that I would be required to do so gives me the creeps.
I do, in fact, try to have some form of ID on me at all times. That's so if I end up unconscious or something I will have something saying who I am and who to contact. But that's my choice, not required by the government.

And does anyone think that a person who is stopped on their way home to their posh suburb w/o the card has the same chance of actually being fined or thrown in prison as a person in Handsworth or Streatham?
And while I agree that civil disobedience is powerful, its also costly at times. We have to respect the choices people feel they have to make. If you are a single mother who is afraid she will lose her children, her job, and her place to live if she goes to jail to make a point about ID cards, I don't think we can condemn her for not making that choice. And that's a pretty crappy position to find yourself in.

Now international terrorists will have no such difficulties. Anyone who thinks this technology can't be hacked into or otherwise compromised is kidding themselves.

OK. So some people don't like ID cards. Making people pay for them is not a good idea and making carrying of them compulsory is draconian. But what are you doing about it ? If you are really serious about your protest then having a whinge on an internet forum is not going to help. Dickie, Martyn, Maria, Nevski - what have you done so far ? Anything ?

To be honest other than whinging about it whenever & wherever I can not a lot.

At the moment there isn't a lot more that can be done.

Ultimately until the 'compulsory' element is legislated neither side will get a real sense of public opinion.

What we have to guard against is it being sneaked in via the back door.

With an attitude like that you deserve the Government that you've got !
Making every effort to stop something being introduced is far more effective than waiting until it happens.

I've not followed this issue very closely as frankly it doesn't affect me. I am a foreigner. However, a quick search brought me to this excellent BBC Webpage which outlines and provides many links to both sides of the argument, and very importantly provides much information concerning my previous point about what can be done to have your say about ID cards being introduced. I would recommend that anyone interested in this read the page and follow the links.

For me discussing it here is the extent of my involvment. I'm more concerned about asylum seekers and refugees rights (which I also see as anti-racism work) and for now that's where any energy I can spare is going.
Also I see my choice of career as a political act as well. Its a damn hard one and exhausting too, and I don't have nearly the energy left over that I would like to do other things that I think are important. I have been considering getting involved with Liberty, however, as I'm so upset by the civil liberties infringements of this government.

That said, I see no reason not to "whinge" about it here as much as we like. There is value in getting things off your chest. There is value in putting arguments into the spoken or written word so you have to--hopefully--organise them and see if they stand up to scrutiny. That is, you get to use your brain. (With the occasional non-noteable exception). Sharing ideas with others is a good idea, too. How do you know that others reading this board haven't learned something from the ideas put forth? Maybe they've changed their minds, either for or against ID cards.
I don't like the implication that we should somehow hang our heads in shame if we've done nothing to prevent ID cards being introduced but say here that we don't like it. I think public expression--to your friends, your neighbors, your colleagues--of your views has its place and it can be very valuable.

Fair enough Maria, but my point can be illustrated by a group of people standing at a pedestrian crossing waiting for the lights to change. They all bitch at each other about the traffic and how long the lights are taking to change. Then somebody comes along and asks "Did anyone push the button ?".

We are the button pushers - That's what we're doing every time we have this discussion with people.

I don't consider writing to MP's doing a lot - FWIW organisations that I am a member of have passed resolutions and sent objections to the Home Office about compulsory ID cards. I know they've been sent because I'm usually the letter writer.

This issue isn't yet at the top of most people's political agenda but things will get hotter for the Government.

They've already lost what they thought would be a winning hand by linking the need for cards to Terrorism, Illegal immigration and work (It's no coincidence that it was recycled shortly after the Madrid bombings.)

As the heat goes up I'll be there still fanning the flames and so will Martyn, Maria and co.



Putting it politely - Get stuffed! Arrogance doesn't suit you.

Look who got their button pushed

I've spent years deveolping this swagger - It's like a good haircut and I'm sticking to it.

I think the way that Maria rambled on about things that are important to her,emphasised that most people on here are not interested in the benifits or disadvantages of introducing an ID card.

They come at it from one angle.....ie.....'will a ID card hinder or advance my political and ideological hopes for the country'.


People like Maria will always say NO, because their aim for Britain is to turn the country into multicultral watered down,mish-mash .And they will support anything that dilutes this countries traditions and values.


I think that introducing ID cards may slow down that slipery slope we find ourselves on.


As i say ,we all have ulterior motives.......Let's not kid ourselfs we are discussing this issue from a neutral standpoint.

Mish mash?

Of what?

Humanity, living together in peace for the benefit of all?

Fine by me.

But pray do tell. Which traditions and values you feel (and I use the word advisedly) are being diluted and by what exactly?

Ediited because I forgot to say...

Still no response to my request for good arguments in favour of compulsory biometric ID cards, KLF.
Do you have any?

My involvement in the currently foetal anti ID card campaign has been confined to ranting on here.
The subject has dropped off the radar for the moment and Blunkett has already talked about an introduction time scale of 14 years.

Writing to my MP would be an obvious first step and one which I will certainly take.
Unlikley to do much good since my MP is Julie Kirkbride, child of Thatcher, true blue through and through.
Her idea of heaven would be a compulsory ID scheme.

I posted the essay by Colin Smith on the BBC iCan site on April the 28th along with a link to a PDF document from Privacy International.
You can find them again quickly by clicking HERE!

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised we actually have a member of the fucking BNP posting on here.
That is the exact same shite they claim.

And to back up Martyn, until someone can give me a viable, cost effective reason for ID cards that don't discriminate against those who can't afford one or the homeless (for example) - I see no reason to need one.
I have plenty of other forms of ID - the difference being is I have CHOSEN to have all of them - passport, driving licence, credit card etc etc - all in my possesion because of my choice to have them. The fact that they are not compulsory (unless I want to drive, leave the country etc) is the important factor in all this.

[quote=Sarah lady,May 6 2004, 12:31 PM] [
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, I hadn't realised we actually have a member of the fucking BNP posting on here.
That is the exact same shite they claim.
[/quote]
Oh, don´t worry, that´s just the klf! We´ve just been realising on the gay marriage thread that he´s no real person but a persona[I]

He'll threaten you with his cousin who is a big noise in legal circles and who specialisise in internet abuse ....



Glad to see I am not alone in accusing him of using these forums to air British Nazi Party sentiments ...

Abuse? An old friends mum used to say: truth can always be told...

well, if the cousin's ability to formulate a coherent argument is anything like what we see here, I think I can sleep easily at nights.

I can just see the written brief now:

"Sir, there being meen to my cousin! make them stop,!"

That ought to do it.

I'm still wondering what date was it that incoming ideas, cultures, foods, languages, traditions, etc, agricultural practicies, etc, stopped being allowed to be integrated into what is British and became "foreign" forevermore?
Maybe klf is right. we should go back to traditional british ways and forbid all new incoming cultures, etc.

So, I'll throw out my soap and shampoo for a start (shampoo is an indian word anyway, not traditional English.) I won't need another bath until I die b/c that's how traditional English people did things.

I'll have to get rid of my car and forgo all motorised transport since that wasn't English either. And I'll actually have to stop speaking English altogether as it was the language of an invader, too. I'll have to learn a celtic language.
And forget food that isn't dried and salted to within an inch of its life. No pasta, no tomatoes (nope, sorry--from the Andes originally, then via Italy--not English.)
And so on.

Now if someone can just give me that magic date I'll be able to do this all better.

And I still fail to see what this has to do with ID cards. I'm amazed that these BNP types can make everything about race and culture. It must be immigrants fault that I havn't been able to get a good haircut since coming to the UK. Now if I can just figure out why.....

The old 'who invented what' arguement won't wash.!!......That has already been floggged to death on a previous tread.

Accusing 'Joe public' of being extemist's......As sure sign that the games up.

... there seems to be a different persona on the klf switchboard tonight ....

Still no response to my request for good arguments in favour of compulsory biometric ID cards, KLF.

How about making it easier to identify people. ,which in turn will help the solving of crime, illegal immigration,organised profitering of 'human trade'......and will have MANY other benifits.

The only disadvantages i see is the cost and the possible abuse of power by the authorities/police.

But for me the benifits outway the negatives.

Just minor negatives like that, then.

How will it do those supposedly positive things? What does it offer that we don't already have?

Oh no--that might require thinking to answer those...

"Ewwww--my brain hurts!"
klf, 2004.

And honestly, you are the worst argument in the world for "traditional" Britain, which, judging by you, is a place of horrendously inadequate education (btw, a "typo" is something that is a mistake in typing. It is not an excuse for when you don't know the proper spelling and punctuation of your native language. That's just stupidity.) It is also, apparently, a place of inferior thinking ability and incredible ego-immaturity.

I truly hope that isn't the case.

You are a true and complete moron. You can't answer the argument so you decide its "done." You sad lilttle troll.

You're sounding desperate and if i may say so slighty barking.

I gave a perfectly reasonable response to Martyn's question. You may not have agreed but your over-reaction is totally uncalled for.

If you're what it is to be intelligent.....Give me stupid any day.

And I notice still havn't answered the question....

As the rest of us seems to be unable to understand the self explanation of your clear sighted arguments I´ll make it easy and pick out just one point:
klf, can you tell us in your own words how exactly do you think will establishing id cards solve the problem of illegal immigration?

The police can turn up at a crime, be told who did it, what they look like and which way they ran. What do the police generally do?

They get back in their car and go in the opposite direction.

If the police were not a bunch of lazy, racist halfwits fewer criminals would get away with crime and there would be no need for ID cards.
Besides, as we've already mentioned, we all carry umpteen methods of identifying ourselves to the police should they require us so to do.
Currently we do not have to carry our driving licences with us or indeed any other documant to prove our identity.
In the event that we commit a road traffic offence and be unable to show our licence or other documents the police may allow us to continue on our journey but eith the proviso that we attend a nominated police station to present the requisite documents within 10 days.
Had the police good reason to believe that allowing us to continue might result in further crimes being committed or if they believe us to be lying about who we are, unable for instance to explain how we are in charge of a motor vehicle not registered to us and unable to offer a reasonable verifiable explanation they can detain us.
It's the law!

What would be the advantage to the officer if he catches a burglar and is presented on request with the burglars ID?
If drug dealers are caught with a lorry carying 30 tonnes of cocaine exactly how would the police be better served by the arrested gang presenting the officers with ID?

I can't think of a scenario where crime prevention or detection would be improved.

Making it illegal to go out without ID would be advantageous to the treasury.
And what do we do if we lose our ID or (and this would be so deliciously ironic) have it stolen?

The governments own statistics show that fixed traffic speed cameras have actually increased the number of accidents that occurr on the stretches of road where they are installed. However the revenue generated by theses devices has been and continues to be phenomenaly high.
It's my firm belief that the non carrying of ID cards would be a revenue generator for whatever administration holds power.

If I were fortunate enough to enter the country legitimately but then decide to remain illegally I would hide.
I would live like a frightened animal avoiding, at almost any cost, the possibility of encountering a police officer or any other person connected with the administration of this country, like doctors, social workers and such. I would therefore not need an ID.

Since everybody who was born here, works here, pays taxes and goes to the doctor a few times a year can also very easily prove their identity if asked, how would it help catch the illegal immigrant living in hiding were I to be forced to hold and carry at all times aan ID card.
Please, explain how it would work.
Give me an example, a scenario, which would illustrate how the biometric ID card would assist in the detection and apprehension of the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants pouring into our cities and towns every day destroying the very fabric of our green and pleasant English land.

How would an ID card, carried by my 78 year old father help to stop human trafficking?
The women and girls are duped into travelling to the UK on genuine documents. They are met by very sophistcated and clever people who then seize the documents and sell them into slavery and or prostitution.
The police catch the girls, send them back to their country of origin where, rather unsurprisingly, they are met by their erstwhile "benefactor" and the whole thing starts again.
When the girls get pregnant they give birth and the babies are sold to the highest bidder. How will this sort of racket be stopped, curtailed or even slightly disturbed by you or me having to carry ID around?
Please tell me. I'm genuinely and sincerely interested to know how it will work.



Name some!

Name just two benefitts that will come as a result of carrying a biometric ID card that I currently do not enjoy.

(and that "many" bollocks? That was what Thatcher used to say in speeches for years when she was desperately trying to justify yet another anti social bit of legislation for which she had no justification other than it allowed the tories to curtail the freedoms of ordinary working people and trade unionists.)

As an 'illegal immigrant' won't have an ID card , but British citizen's and 'legal immigrants' will have ID cards, i guess it will be easier to tell which one was which.......It's not rocket science.

Try again.

Blunkett has already said non British nationals (Legal immigrants) won't be issued with I.D. cards.

You know KLF it's not rocket science to read what is actually being proposed.

Arn't most legal migrants given British citizenship .???

No.

I politely suggest you do some research or I'll have to start calling you a K J T W.

Legal migrants, such as myself, don't all WANT British citizenship either.
How's that for a shocking idea.

There is a chance Labour could muck up what is essentially a good idea by not implememting the sceme properly.

I'm sure incorperating Legal immigrants into the ID card database shoudn't prove to difficult.

Anyway the way Labour are going at present,there's a good chance that they won't be in power when ID cards are finally introduced. Whoever's in charge at the time might have different perameters on how the sceme will be introduced.

Obviously i would only back the innitative if it was going to be effective in improving crime and fraud in Britain.

Please let me repost that in the "Funniest Thing I've Heard This Week" thread.

Please