It's as clear as the nose on your face.
Full Version: I.d Cards
SYME says - He supports the idea of an I.D. card because if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. He is also aware that checks should be in place to make sure the infornation carried on these cards is not abused by outside agencies.
It's as clear as the nose on your face.
It's as clear as the nose on your face.
There's no reason in the world to disapprove of a compulsory I.D card that has your photo / name & address / NI number on it.....To do so ,is only to serve you own political motives and agenda's.
QUOTE(Dickie @ Apr 28 2004, 11:58 AM)
SYME says - He supports the idea of an I.D. card because if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. He is also aware that checks should be in place to make sure the infornation carried on these cards is not abused by outside agencies.
It's as clear as the nose on your face.
It's as clear as the nose on your face.
thanks dickie. i understand now. and agree that there is no reason for a law abiding citizen to feel comfortable with a card of this nature.
I just don't trust that the card will only hold this information, or wont link to other more sensitive information.
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 28 2004, 11:24 AM)
There's no reason in the world to disapprove of a compulsory I.D card that has your photo / name & address / NI number on it.....To do so ,is only to serve you own political motives and agenda's.
What about if it'll cost a lot of tax payer's money to introduce, but won't actually help tackle crime at all?
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 28 2004, 12:24 PM)
There's no reason in the world to disapprove of a compulsory I.D card that has your photo / name & address / NI number on it.....To do so ,is only to serve you own political motives and agenda's.
I can already provide all of that information to any agency that requires it.
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 28 2004, 12:24 PM)
There's no reason in the world to disapprove of a compulsory I.D card that has your photo / name & address / NI number on it.....To do so ,is only to serve you own political motives and agenda's.
is that your 'feeling' KLF?
it was so peaceful yesterday without your right wing tinged views being espoused.
i can think of a couple of reasons to disaprove of ID cards.
1) added beaurocracy for which a quantifiable reduction in crime/security risk/terrorism cannot be proved
2) Civil liberties, and the right to go about your lawful work unhindered by the state or agents of the state who feel they can stop and search you because they don't like your skin colour, shoes, watch, glasses, handbag, attitude or god forbid... your t-shirt (you might get stopped yourself if you ever give me your address for me to send you that 'C*nt' t-shirt)
I am not convinced Either way on ID cards, but i have an open mind to the debate on it. you view, as ever is so black and white its stupid. stop being such a numpty.
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Apr 26 2004, 04:40 PM)
What I don't understand is how its going to "combat terrorism"?
If the terrorists can already fake passports or come into Britain illegally then an ID card isn't going to stop them. Furthermore, if the "terror" is from within the UK and they are UK citizens then how is it going to catch them.
If the terrorists can already fake passports or come into Britain illegally then an ID card isn't going to stop them. Furthermore, if the "terror" is from within the UK and they are UK citizens then how is it going to catch them.
It wonīt. One of the 11. Sept. pilots, that Mohamed Atta, lived in Hamburg, registered with a genuine passport with a genuine residence permit in it as a legal student and he came to Germany with a legal entrancevisa, and it didnīt prevent the attacks.
Exactly Meg, so why they are marketing them in this way is beyond me.
KLF - I think we have all expressed very good reasons as to why a Compulsory ID card is unacceptable so to say there is "no reason in the world" just proves you aren't reading this thread very well!
KLF - I think we have all expressed very good reasons as to why a Compulsory ID card is unacceptable so to say there is "no reason in the world" just proves you aren't reading this thread very well!
Right now I carry a credit card or two, a couple of bank cards and a driving license. In a way that means I can either ask 'why do I need to carry anything else' or 'why would carrying anything else trouble me?' I know I don't have to carry these things, but I'm a thirty something bloke, when do I ever leave the house without my wallet?
I recognise that the argument is not as simple as that but I think that for many it really is.
It seems to me that it is increasingly understood that terrorism is something that goes on in the mind, not in the documents that you carry, so ID cards are not a route to eliminating that threat, but they may well be a means to reducing it simply by reducing the number of unidentifiable people.
Anyway, if someone stops you why wouldn't you just say 'I left England five years back, live in Naples, New York, New South Wales now', hard to disprove then and there unless you are carrying all your other cards.
I recognise that the argument is not as simple as that but I think that for many it really is.
It seems to me that it is increasingly understood that terrorism is something that goes on in the mind, not in the documents that you carry, so ID cards are not a route to eliminating that threat, but they may well be a means to reducing it simply by reducing the number of unidentifiable people.
Anyway, if someone stops you why wouldn't you just say 'I left England five years back, live in Naples, New York, New South Wales now', hard to disprove then and there unless you are carrying all your other cards.
QUOTE(nevski @ Apr 28 2004, 12:19 PM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 28 2004, 12:24 PM)
There's no reason in the world to disapprove of a compulsory I.D card that has your photo / name & address / NI number on it.....To do so ,is only to serve you own political motives and agenda's.
is that your 'feeling' KLF?
it was so peaceful yesterday without your right wing tinged views being espoused.
i can think of a couple of reasons to disaprove of ID cards.
1) added beaurocracy for which a quantifiable reduction in crime/security risk/terrorism cannot be proved
2) Civil liberties, and the right to go about your lawful work unhindered by the state or agents of the state who feel they can stop and search you because they don't like your skin colour, shoes, watch, glasses, handbag, attitude or god forbid... your t-shirt (you might get stopped yourself if you ever give me your address for me to send you that 'C*nt' t-shirt)
I am not convinced Either way on ID cards, but i have an open mind to the debate on it. you view, as ever is so black and white its stupid. stop being such a numpty.
Nevski....Is it yours (and Joe's) 'feelings' that ID cards won't help much in reducing crime/deseption..etc.
It is mine and the governments 'feelings' that it would cut down on those things....The only thing to weigh up against that, is the cost of introduction.
I think the fact that you feel support for ID cards is 'right wing tinged'....backs up my previous comments
i think if you read my thread properly KLF you will see that i state:
i didnt say i had a 'feeling' either way. thats the difference between you and i.
also....
did not relate specifically to your support of ID cards, but to your outlook in general. please try to stop misrepresenting what i say. I may well end up supporting ID cards, if it can be proved to me that they will be used only as a form of ID, not as a way of big brothering me. I wait to be convinced.
i am however convinced that you are a numpty.
and lazy.
and unable to debate using any evidence to back up your viewpoint.
and only here because you think its fun to wind up the 'loony left'.
QUOTE
added beaurocracy for which a quantifiable reduction in crime/security risk/terrorism cannot be proved
i didnt say i had a 'feeling' either way. thats the difference between you and i.
also....
QUOTE
it was so peaceful yesterday without your right wing tinged views being espoused.
did not relate specifically to your support of ID cards, but to your outlook in general. please try to stop misrepresenting what i say. I may well end up supporting ID cards, if it can be proved to me that they will be used only as a form of ID, not as a way of big brothering me. I wait to be convinced.
i am however convinced that you are a numpty.
and lazy.
and unable to debate using any evidence to back up your viewpoint.
and only here because you think its fun to wind up the 'loony left'.
I didn't even say that ID cards wouldn't cut crime (though Meg et al have some pretty good arguments showing why they probably wouldn't be worth it), I was pointing out why your post stating that there are no arguments against ID cards was stupid.
Look even Blunkett can't come up with a 'proper' reason for them. They chuck some stuff out there the media and population say rubbish so they chuck some more stuff out.
Terrorism, Illegal working, immigration, NHS, Education.
None of the arguements hold water.
Terrorism, Illegal working, immigration, NHS, Education.
None of the arguements hold water.
i don't often venture onto the big boy's board, so i will quickly give you this analogy and then disappear back to chat/football where opinions don't matter so much....
my security badge at work gets me past the monkey-men in the main lobby and allows me to gain access to the interior door to the office. It won't allow me access to any other offices to which I'm not assigned and have no business entering. Fair enough.
But if the company I'm working for decided one day to use the badges for other purposes, say, to track my comings and goings to use against me in my performance evaluation, then that's wrong.
I don't think it's the ID cards themselves that anyone objects to, it's the potential for misuse down the line.
I nearly forgot, I don't have to pay for it either.
my security badge at work gets me past the monkey-men in the main lobby and allows me to gain access to the interior door to the office. It won't allow me access to any other offices to which I'm not assigned and have no business entering. Fair enough.
But if the company I'm working for decided one day to use the badges for other purposes, say, to track my comings and goings to use against me in my performance evaluation, then that's wrong.
I don't think it's the ID cards themselves that anyone objects to, it's the potential for misuse down the line.
I nearly forgot, I don't have to pay for it either.
Pulling out of the laughably titled 'European human rights act' .with Blair stupidly signed up for in 1997,would have a much greater effect on reducing the terrorist treat to Britain than ID cards......Maybe thats the cheaper option.?
If ID cards can cut crime and I do not for one minute think they will make any difference,
... but just supposing they did, how long would it be effective?
Twenty four hours? The guys who matter will reproduce these silly bits of plastic within hours of them being issued ... complete with false fingerpints, iris prints or dna chips ....
... but just supposing they did, how long would it be effective?
Twenty four hours? The guys who matter will reproduce these silly bits of plastic within hours of them being issued ... complete with false fingerpints, iris prints or dna chips ....
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 28 2004, 05:03 PM)
Pulling out of the laughably titled 'European human rights act' .with Blair stupidly signed up for in 1997,would have a much greater effect on reducing the terrorist treat to Britain than ID cards......Maybe thats the cheaper option.?
i see you're still suffering from tangent-itis then KLF.
if you want to discuss the european human rights act, and its effect on terrorist threats, then why not start a new thread?
QUOTE(Alberr @ Apr 28 2004, 05:06 PM)
If ID cards can cut crime and I do not for one minute think they will make any difference,
... but just supposing they did, how long would it be effective?
Twenty four hours? The guys who matter will reproduce these silly bits of plastic within hours of them being issued ... complete with false fingerpints, iris prints or dna chips ....
... but just supposing they did, how long would it be effective?
Twenty four hours? The guys who matter will reproduce these silly bits of plastic within hours of them being issued ... complete with false fingerpints, iris prints or dna chips ....
How the HELL can you fake someone's fingerprint,Iris print,or DNA.???
Anyway , I think the proposed 10 year sentence for 'attemped fakers' might put off anyone from trying.
..like life imprisonment for murder puts people off contract killing, KLF?
err and you dont fake someones DNA or iris, you fake the card to match the persons DNA or iris.
do you think that all those fraudulent passports out there in circulation belong to people who have had plastic surgery?
really KLF, give it some thought.
err and you dont fake someones DNA or iris, you fake the card to match the persons DNA or iris.
do you think that all those fraudulent passports out there in circulation belong to people who have had plastic surgery?
really KLF, give it some thought.
QUOTE
How the HELL can you fake someone's fingerprint,Iris print,or DNA.???
Take off your blinkers ... think laterally ... I wouldn't be surprised to find that the big boys already have a contingency plan ...
QUOTE
Anyway , I think the proposed 10 year sentence for 'attemped fakers' might put off anyone from trying.
Sorry, Nevski already made the point I was going to make .. .
QUOTE(nevski @ Apr 28 2004, 05:53 PM)
..like life imprisonment for murder puts people off contract killing, KLF?
err and you dont fake someones DNA or iris, you fake the card to match the persons DNA or iris.
do you think that all those fraudulent passports out there in circulation belong to people who have had plastic surgery?
really KLF, give it some thought.
err and you dont fake someones DNA or iris, you fake the card to match the persons DNA or iris.
do you think that all those fraudulent passports out there in circulation belong to people who have had plastic surgery?
really KLF, give it some thought.
eer.......The cardholders iris/fingerprint has to match the iris/fingerprint (and photo) on the main databank.
slight change in tack there klf, but i take your point.. so...
err.. and you dont think theres any corrupt people on the 'inside' who would ammend details.
or very clever bastards who can hack into databases and change things....
and you are of course assuming that there is going to be a database centrally holding this information, its not just going to be held on the card, so it can be matched to the person presenting the card.
Anyway, the would law needs to be changed majorly if agencies are going to be allowed to hold the DNA, iris and fingerprint of every person in the country, wouldn't it? at the moment it is my understanding that you have to be convicted of a crime before law enforcement agencies have the right to hold samples of your DNA? and to get my fingerprints i have to be arrested under susppicion of commititing a crime don't i?
And are they really going to haul in all 56 million of us to have our iris's scanned?
Hmm sounds a tad expensive eh? fancy us having to put taxes up to pay for that eh?
really, more thought required K L F.
oh i love a good conspiracy theory, me.
err.. and you dont think theres any corrupt people on the 'inside' who would ammend details.
or very clever bastards who can hack into databases and change things....
and you are of course assuming that there is going to be a database centrally holding this information, its not just going to be held on the card, so it can be matched to the person presenting the card.
Anyway, the would law needs to be changed majorly if agencies are going to be allowed to hold the DNA, iris and fingerprint of every person in the country, wouldn't it? at the moment it is my understanding that you have to be convicted of a crime before law enforcement agencies have the right to hold samples of your DNA? and to get my fingerprints i have to be arrested under susppicion of commititing a crime don't i?
And are they really going to haul in all 56 million of us to have our iris's scanned?
Hmm sounds a tad expensive eh? fancy us having to put taxes up to pay for that eh?
really, more thought required K L F.
oh i love a good conspiracy theory, me.
A DNA database.......know that WOULD cut crime. 
You don't have to fake the contents of the card, just the card.
Unless every police officer carries a portable card reader or takes you into cutsody (which, unsurprisingly they can do already without ID cards being carried) all they can do is look at the card and look at your face. The card simply has to look right.
So even if I have a card the copper can't learn anything from it that he couldn't learn if he asked a series of simple easily verifiable questions. If he doesn't like the look of me or the answers I give he can take me into custody.
Maria and I were talking about this tonight.
She mentioned apartheid SA which is what Routlege in the Mirror was on about.
Maria also pointed out that fancy looking people in suits who can get their cars taxed with only a few days left on the MOT will probably only ever have to show their 40 quid biometric cards once or twice a year, whereas black kids, out on the streets of Handsworth or Southall will be having to show them every night of the week from the moment they get issued. That's if they bother/afford to cough up the cash for the card in the first place.
This is a move to the right too far boys and girls.
Its time to start writing to your MP and to Blair and Blunkett and tell them that we've nothing to hide but our privacy.
If a copper wants to know where I've been and where I'm going he only has to ask.
I have choices.
i ) I can remain silent and thereby arouse his/her ire and displeasure resulting almost certainly in arrest and subsequent unpleasantness.
ii ) I can answer his questions politely and hope that this will satisfy him and I will be allowed on my way.
iii ) I can tell him to mind his own business and to leave me alone which will be most likely to result in a similar scenario described in "i".
Carrying an ID card will do nothing to further facilitate the coppers job.
I found this on the BBC iCan site.
Further reading (PDF file)
Unless every police officer carries a portable card reader or takes you into cutsody (which, unsurprisingly they can do already without ID cards being carried) all they can do is look at the card and look at your face. The card simply has to look right.
So even if I have a card the copper can't learn anything from it that he couldn't learn if he asked a series of simple easily verifiable questions. If he doesn't like the look of me or the answers I give he can take me into custody.
Maria and I were talking about this tonight.
She mentioned apartheid SA which is what Routlege in the Mirror was on about.
Maria also pointed out that fancy looking people in suits who can get their cars taxed with only a few days left on the MOT will probably only ever have to show their 40 quid biometric cards once or twice a year, whereas black kids, out on the streets of Handsworth or Southall will be having to show them every night of the week from the moment they get issued. That's if they bother/afford to cough up the cash for the card in the first place.
This is a move to the right too far boys and girls.
Its time to start writing to your MP and to Blair and Blunkett and tell them that we've nothing to hide but our privacy.
If a copper wants to know where I've been and where I'm going he only has to ask.
I have choices.
i ) I can remain silent and thereby arouse his/her ire and displeasure resulting almost certainly in arrest and subsequent unpleasantness.
ii ) I can answer his questions politely and hope that this will satisfy him and I will be allowed on my way.
iii ) I can tell him to mind his own business and to leave me alone which will be most likely to result in a similar scenario described in "i".
Carrying an ID card will do nothing to further facilitate the coppers job.
I found this on the BBC iCan site.
QUOTE
Identity cards don't work, are hugely expensive as well as dangerous.
by Colin Smith.
The homeless
The homeless in society will be unable to get an ID card. They have no fixed abode, they have no existing way of identifying themselves. This means that they will become unentitled to use the very benefit system which they most need.
The cost
An initial estimate of 3 billion pounds. In reality this is pure guesswork.
It's a truly huge IT project and the government doesn't have a very good record for managing far more modest projects such as the National Probation Service IT systems, the Child Support Agency or the MOD's pay, pension and HR systems.
All of which ran massively over budget.
We can therefore expect the final costs to be double or perhaps more of the initial estimate.
These costs have to be paid somehow and money does not grow on trees. That means that there will either have to be 3 billion pounds worth of cuts in other services; NHS, education, police, military or there will have to be 3 billion pounds more tax raised.
A license to live
The government claims that part of the cost will be paid by the card holders. This amounts to what is effectively a license to be alive. Without a card the individual is excluded from society, or at least, that's the aim.
Benefit fraud
Misrepresentation of circumstances
Only 5% of the 4 billion pounds of benefit fraud per year is identity related. The other 95% is "misrepresentation of circumstances".
e.g.It is perpetrated by people who claim entitlements while also working for cash in hand. A national identity card will not stop this practice, many of the fraudsters already perpetrate their crimes with the full knowledge and indeed encouragement of their employers.
So the introduction of an identity card will have only a tiny effect on the level of fraud, in fact, it is questionable whether any reduction in the level of benefit fraud will even cover the running costs of the ID card scheme.
Crime
Forgery
A forged ID card does not have to be perfect, it only has to be plausible. There have been near perfect forgeries of the British photocard driving license since it was introduced.
There will be relatively few locations where the biometric part of an ID card could be checked because not only will it require specialised hardware to scan a fingerprint or iris. It will also require access to the government identity database to compare that fingerprint or iris against the officially recorded one.
If access to the centralised database is not granted to *everyone* then the only people who will be able to check the validity of the card are the government, the police or whoever does have access to the database.
This means that forgers need only populate their forged cards with the biometric information of the person purchasing it.
A plausible forgery of an ID card is all that is required for an illegal immigrant or terrorist to function normally within society.
Identity theft
Identity theft will be vastly simplified, only a single card needs to be stolen, forged or copied.
Terrorism
Spain
ETA
This Basque terrorist organsiation have continued to function since 1959 despite the
compulsory national identity cards within Spain, so even in the long term, identity cards are ineffective.
Madrid train bomb
Despite the spanish compulsory ID card system, Al-Qaeda managed to plant several bombs on to a train in Madrid. The ID cards had absolutely no affect on the ability of the terrorists to function.
September 11th
The terrorists who perpetrated the September the 11th atrocity were not American citizens or pretending to be American citizens, they were foreign nationals. A national identity card system would have made no difference.
Illegal immigration
Spain
Moroccan immigrants
It's estimated that there are between 500,000 and 800,000 illegal immigrants living in Spain without a national ID card, with tens of thousands more every year. They live and work on the black market. Most of them originate from Morocco and other nearby african countries.
The spanish ID card hasn't helped to fight the tide of illegal immigration there.
Illegal working
In order for an ID card to stop illegal working, the employers would have to demand a valid ID card for each of their employees.
It's clear that any employee without a card would be unable to use any of the legal services should the employer breach any of the employment legislation such as the minimum wage or working time directive. Hardly an incentive for employers to be diligent over the inspection of cards.
Therefore it's hardly surprising that an ID card will have no effect on the levels of illegal working within the country.
Biometric information
Biometric information while unique to an individual uses statistical methods to determine the nearness of a match between a stored iris scan or fingerprint scan and the scan information in the database. This means that there will be several matches returned for any query with an estimate of the confidence of a match.
In order to guarantee a match the number of scans to check against has to be reduced by the use of an identity number.
Civil liberties
I am a number! I am not a free man!
Obviously the heading is a corruption of a line from The Prisoner, a television series from the 1960s but there is a serious point.
Without your ID number you become a non person, you don't exist as far as the government is concerned and you must prove your identity. The individual becomes defined *by* their identity card.
Privacy
The key feature of a compulsory identity card is that is provides a single unique index.
A national ID card will provide a single index that anyone would be able to use to store and share information about individuals. The information will not necessarily be stored on the card itself but in huge databases which can be traded between commercial organisations and between government departments.
The identity card index will make it simple to merge data on an individual from many sources. Only the owners of the databases know the purposes they will put the collated information to or to whom they will sell the information.
The cards will make "virtual surveillance" of an individual very simple, indeed because much of the information will be commercially available, anyone who can afford to buy access to the databases will be able to monitor individuals through transactions which use their ID number, there is no reason this couldn't be possible in real time and from anywhere in the world.
This is an unprecedented increase in the power and control the government and the rich and powerful have over individuals.
Racism
Stop and search
In order for ID cards to be useful, the police must be given the power to stop citizens and demand to see their ID card and it must be illegal not to produce the card on demand. It's obvious when they are given these powers that the people who are stopped will be those who appear to be of asian, african and arabic descent who could conceivably be illegal immigrants. Therefore harassment of ethnic minorities will become the norm.
Genocide
Rwanda
Just ten years ago 800,000 Rwandans who had nothing to hide were identified as "Tutsi" by their identity cards and then massacred by their government.
Germany
In 1938. The NAZIs introduced the "J" stamp on the national ID card and then used it to determine who were and were not Jewish. 6.5 million people were identified as Jewish, 6.5 million identified for death.
by Colin Smith.
The homeless
The homeless in society will be unable to get an ID card. They have no fixed abode, they have no existing way of identifying themselves. This means that they will become unentitled to use the very benefit system which they most need.
The cost
An initial estimate of 3 billion pounds. In reality this is pure guesswork.
It's a truly huge IT project and the government doesn't have a very good record for managing far more modest projects such as the National Probation Service IT systems, the Child Support Agency or the MOD's pay, pension and HR systems.
All of which ran massively over budget.
We can therefore expect the final costs to be double or perhaps more of the initial estimate.
These costs have to be paid somehow and money does not grow on trees. That means that there will either have to be 3 billion pounds worth of cuts in other services; NHS, education, police, military or there will have to be 3 billion pounds more tax raised.
A license to live
The government claims that part of the cost will be paid by the card holders. This amounts to what is effectively a license to be alive. Without a card the individual is excluded from society, or at least, that's the aim.
Benefit fraud
Misrepresentation of circumstances
Only 5% of the 4 billion pounds of benefit fraud per year is identity related. The other 95% is "misrepresentation of circumstances".
e.g.It is perpetrated by people who claim entitlements while also working for cash in hand. A national identity card will not stop this practice, many of the fraudsters already perpetrate their crimes with the full knowledge and indeed encouragement of their employers.
So the introduction of an identity card will have only a tiny effect on the level of fraud, in fact, it is questionable whether any reduction in the level of benefit fraud will even cover the running costs of the ID card scheme.
Crime
Forgery
A forged ID card does not have to be perfect, it only has to be plausible. There have been near perfect forgeries of the British photocard driving license since it was introduced.
There will be relatively few locations where the biometric part of an ID card could be checked because not only will it require specialised hardware to scan a fingerprint or iris. It will also require access to the government identity database to compare that fingerprint or iris against the officially recorded one.
If access to the centralised database is not granted to *everyone* then the only people who will be able to check the validity of the card are the government, the police or whoever does have access to the database.
This means that forgers need only populate their forged cards with the biometric information of the person purchasing it.
A plausible forgery of an ID card is all that is required for an illegal immigrant or terrorist to function normally within society.
Identity theft
Identity theft will be vastly simplified, only a single card needs to be stolen, forged or copied.
Terrorism
Spain
ETA
This Basque terrorist organsiation have continued to function since 1959 despite the
compulsory national identity cards within Spain, so even in the long term, identity cards are ineffective.
Madrid train bomb
Despite the spanish compulsory ID card system, Al-Qaeda managed to plant several bombs on to a train in Madrid. The ID cards had absolutely no affect on the ability of the terrorists to function.
September 11th
The terrorists who perpetrated the September the 11th atrocity were not American citizens or pretending to be American citizens, they were foreign nationals. A national identity card system would have made no difference.
Illegal immigration
Spain
Moroccan immigrants
It's estimated that there are between 500,000 and 800,000 illegal immigrants living in Spain without a national ID card, with tens of thousands more every year. They live and work on the black market. Most of them originate from Morocco and other nearby african countries.
The spanish ID card hasn't helped to fight the tide of illegal immigration there.
Illegal working
In order for an ID card to stop illegal working, the employers would have to demand a valid ID card for each of their employees.
It's clear that any employee without a card would be unable to use any of the legal services should the employer breach any of the employment legislation such as the minimum wage or working time directive. Hardly an incentive for employers to be diligent over the inspection of cards.
Therefore it's hardly surprising that an ID card will have no effect on the levels of illegal working within the country.
Biometric information
Biometric information while unique to an individual uses statistical methods to determine the nearness of a match between a stored iris scan or fingerprint scan and the scan information in the database. This means that there will be several matches returned for any query with an estimate of the confidence of a match.
In order to guarantee a match the number of scans to check against has to be reduced by the use of an identity number.
Civil liberties
I am a number! I am not a free man!
Obviously the heading is a corruption of a line from The Prisoner, a television series from the 1960s but there is a serious point.
Without your ID number you become a non person, you don't exist as far as the government is concerned and you must prove your identity. The individual becomes defined *by* their identity card.
Privacy
The key feature of a compulsory identity card is that is provides a single unique index.
A national ID card will provide a single index that anyone would be able to use to store and share information about individuals. The information will not necessarily be stored on the card itself but in huge databases which can be traded between commercial organisations and between government departments.
The identity card index will make it simple to merge data on an individual from many sources. Only the owners of the databases know the purposes they will put the collated information to or to whom they will sell the information.
The cards will make "virtual surveillance" of an individual very simple, indeed because much of the information will be commercially available, anyone who can afford to buy access to the databases will be able to monitor individuals through transactions which use their ID number, there is no reason this couldn't be possible in real time and from anywhere in the world.
This is an unprecedented increase in the power and control the government and the rich and powerful have over individuals.
Racism
Stop and search
In order for ID cards to be useful, the police must be given the power to stop citizens and demand to see their ID card and it must be illegal not to produce the card on demand. It's obvious when they are given these powers that the people who are stopped will be those who appear to be of asian, african and arabic descent who could conceivably be illegal immigrants. Therefore harassment of ethnic minorities will become the norm.
Genocide
Rwanda
Just ten years ago 800,000 Rwandans who had nothing to hide were identified as "Tutsi" by their identity cards and then massacred by their government.
Germany
In 1938. The NAZIs introduced the "J" stamp on the national ID card and then used it to determine who were and were not Jewish. 6.5 million people were identified as Jewish, 6.5 million identified for death.
Further reading (PDF file)
One again the rights of the majority (to live in security and without fear), are overlooked in favour of the few.
Once again the klf ignores all of the responses and carries on pretending he's somehow won an argument.
QUOTE(Martyn @ Apr 28 2004, 09:40 PM)
Unless every police officer carries a portable card reader or takes you into cutsody (which, unsurprisingly they can do already without ID cards being carried) all they can do is look at the card and look at your face. The card simply has to look right.
I own a PDA which has a fingerprint reader built into it and wireless internet access. I found it slightly too bulky for personal use, though its only the size of an A6 notebook, so I don't use it. It cost around Ģ500 so the technology is there, Martin, but ultimately I think you are right, for the short and mid term appearance will be the test and if you have a photo driving license then you know what a crude test that might be.
Also the technology to read the number codes on european passports is there. It somehow proofs that the code is plausible and the passport is not forged, donīt know how. But -as public cash boxes here are more than empty- no authority can afford them. No police station, no registration office, no immigration office - they just take a look at your passport and if it seems to look right they let you pass.
I think the terrorism thing is a welcome excuse for politicians to carry through what they wanted to do anyway. German minister Schily recently came up with the idea to establish a social year for school leavers which means nothing less than force them to work in some social institution for one year without getting paid. It would be helpful in fighting terrorism because it makes people aware of their social responsiblity, he said. The truth is that a social year has already been discussed in connection with keeping school leavers out of the unemployment statistics and with hospitals and nursing homes having not enough (cheap!!!) attendants, but for constitutional reasons there was no way to establish it. Of course, if it was for the combat against terrorism the required majority for reforming our constitution could be available.
Heīs also talked about deporting foreigners on suspect, and -if they canīt be deported because their threatened with death penalty in their homelands- imprison people on suspect, and the latest discussion is about whether it should be allowed to kill people on suspect like it seems to be usual in Israel these days.
I think the terrorism thing is a welcome excuse for politicians to carry through what they wanted to do anyway. German minister Schily recently came up with the idea to establish a social year for school leavers which means nothing less than force them to work in some social institution for one year without getting paid. It would be helpful in fighting terrorism because it makes people aware of their social responsiblity, he said. The truth is that a social year has already been discussed in connection with keeping school leavers out of the unemployment statistics and with hospitals and nursing homes having not enough (cheap!!!) attendants, but for constitutional reasons there was no way to establish it. Of course, if it was for the combat against terrorism the required majority for reforming our constitution could be available.
Heīs also talked about deporting foreigners on suspect, and -if they canīt be deported because their threatened with death penalty in their homelands- imprison people on suspect, and the latest discussion is about whether it should be allowed to kill people on suspect like it seems to be usual in Israel these days.
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 29 2004, 12:09 AM)
One again the rights of the majority (to live in security and without fear), are overlooked in favour of the few.
Did you actually read the article that Martyn posted? I'd hardly call 800,000 Rwandans or 6.5 million Jews "the few". I also think it clearly points out how "living without fear" isn't something that the ID card will help with.
Sometimes your ignorance astounds me.
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Apr 29 2004, 12:59 PM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 29 2004, 12:09 AM)
One again the rights of the majority (to live in security and without fear), are overlooked in favour of the few.
Did you actually read the article that Martyn posted? I'd hardly call 800,000 Rwandans or 6.5 million Jews "the few". I also think it clearly points out how "living without fear" isn't something that the ID card will help with.
Sometimes your ignorance astounds me.
Four things to answer.
1. Yes i did read it.
2. I saw some of those horrific killings(which the UN turned a blind eye too) in Rwanda,on video footage.......Let me tell you this,the last thing the killers we doing was asking people to produce ID's .
3. You believe ID cards won't help........I believe they will help.
4. Refure to my comments about resorting to 'personal abuse' whiilst debating ,on a previous thread.
QUOTE
I believe they will help
Again, brilliant reasoning, I'm convinced now!
BTW: it's far easier to fake a fingerprint than to fake a passphoto.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/jam...ndgadgets.shtml
"Fake prints made out of common household ingredients can fool expensive biometric security systems which use fingerprints for identification. Researchers in Japan recently tricked one security system by using fake fingerprints lifted from a gelatine mould"
So why we need it, I don't know.
QUOTE(Leontien @ Apr 29 2004, 02:30 PM)
QUOTE
I believe they will help
Again, brilliant reasoning, I'm convinced now!
BTW: it's far easier to fake a fingerprint than to fake a passphoto.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/jam...ndgadgets.shtml
"Fake prints made out of common household ingredients can fool expensive biometric security systems which use fingerprints for identification. Researchers in Japan recently tricked one security system by using fake fingerprints lifted from a gelatine mould"
So why we need it, I don't know.
Can you fake an Iris yet??.......I bet you lot hope it can be done.
You believe it won't help,brilliant reasoning Leontien,I,m convinced now !.
QUOTE(meg @ Apr 29 2004, 11:02 AM)
I think the terrorism thing is a welcome excuse for politicians to carry through what they wanted to do anyway. German minister Schily recently came up with the idea to establish a social year for school leavers which means nothing less than force them to work in some social institution for one year without getting paid. It would be helpful in fighting terrorism because it makes people aware of their social responsiblity, he said. The truth is that a social year has already been discussed in connection with keeping school leavers out of the unemployment statistics and with hospitals and nursing homes having not enough (cheap!!!) attendants, but for constitutional reasons there was no way to establish it. Of course, if it was for the combat against terrorism the required majority for reforming our constitution could be available.
Heīs also talked about deporting foreigners on suspect, and -if they canīt be deported because their threatened with death penalty in their homelands- imprison people on suspect, and the latest discussion is about whether it should be allowed to kill people on suspect like it seems to be usual in Israel these days.
Heīs also talked about deporting foreigners on suspect, and -if they canīt be deported because their threatened with death penalty in their homelands- imprison people on suspect, and the latest discussion is about whether it should be allowed to kill people on suspect like it seems to be usual in Israel these days.
Spot on
I still can't believe my eyes reading that bit about Schily...
We have IDs already for a long long time in Spain. No need to say how useful they were on stopping terrorism...
Very handy on demonstrations though
Dare to say to one of those armed guys (well, how to say anti-disturbios in English 
) you don't need to show your card as you were'nt actually doing anything illegal...
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 29 2004, 03:44 PM)
QUOTE(Leontien @ Apr 29 2004, 02:30 PM)
QUOTE
I believe they will help
Again, brilliant reasoning, I'm convinced now!
BTW: it's far easier to fake a fingerprint than to fake a passphoto.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/jam...ndgadgets.shtml
"Fake prints made out of common household ingredients can fool expensive biometric security systems which use fingerprints for identification. Researchers in Japan recently tricked one security system by using fake fingerprints lifted from a gelatine mould"
So why we need it, I don't know.
Can you fake an Iris yet??.......I bet you lot hope it can be done.
You believe it won't help,brilliant reasoning Leontien,I,m convinced now !.
KLF, did you read my post about changing the records on the database to match the fraudulent card holder?.
it might not be necessary to fake an iris.
and whats this tosh about
QUOTE
Can you fake an Iris yet??.......I bet you lot hope it can be done.
why would we hope that then?
oh i so want to call you a numpty again, but im "scared" you'll say im resorting to petty insults, although i refute your argument in pretty much every post, and leave the petty insult to the end.
oh sod it.
NUMPTY!
He is.
And so is anybody who actually believes that a compulsory biometric ID card will stop terrorism.
Imagine for a moment that I have lost my marbles and have decided to wage war on the democratically elected government of the UK.
Imagine that I'm doing this at a time when ID cards are in use and have all the techno gubbins in place.
My ability to obtain the ingredients for bomb making would undoubtedly be hindered.
Instead of being able to pop into my local chemical supplier after having previously set up a business as a janitorial supplies company therby legitimising my possesion of all sorts of nasty things, I would have to steal them. As we all know, terrorist masterminds have never thought of stealing things before so I'll be breaking new ground here.
Each time I get stopped by the police in my van I have invoices and purchase orders for all the nasty contents and gues what else?
My ID checks out! I'm Martyn Bogg-Cleaner, Director of Brite-Bogs, Janitorial supplies and cleaning products.
What the stupid copper doesn't know is that in reality I'm Martyn "Mad Dog" C*******, bent on the bloody demise of the UK Gov and anybody who knows them.
You get the picture.
Its a sick joke and Blunkett is just loving every column inch the Mail, Telegraph and Sun print about how we're being "taken over" by "illegals" and that our lives are in mortal danger from terrorists. There may of course be a grain of truth in the last part of that statement but issuing ID cards to everybody isn't going to help one little bit in preventing a car bomb going off or a home made mortar being fired.
ID cards will allow the british government to control your every move.
It starts with name & address.
You are going to have to produce the card in order to obtain NHS treatment or DHSS benefits.
My records going back to 1956 don't count now then?
Then they'll extend its capabilities, all the while assuring you that it will be good for you.
First your blood group perhaps in case you are in an accident. See how much the government cares about your health and safety?
Never mind that the paramedic on the scene and the hospital would be able in 10 years if not now, to whack a load of oxygen carrying synthetic stuff into you to keep you alive.
Crimanl convictions would be a cert too.
After all, if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to hide.
Then DNA profile. And whilst we're at it we'll have your stated religion and your political affiliations.
You'll have to produce to vote.
You'll have to produce to enter libraries and produce to withdraw books.
Taking home that new biog of Karl Marx isn't such a good idea now is it?
We've put all that on so why are you now objecting to your full medical history being on there? It's for your own good. Surely you can see that?
That misspent youth with the booze and the weed just didn't go down too well with the prospective employer did it? Such a shame that the government allowed companies to insist on full access to ID when recruiting. They said they wanted to be sure they weren't hiring a terrorist.
Yes madam, your application to be considered for motherhood has been turned down.
Your ID confirms our belief that you would be unsuitable on mental and physical health grounds. It's no good whining about having grown up and changed. Those flings at uni and the std clearly indicate that you're not a "good girl". What were you thinking?
In the coming months we'll hear the following phrase bandied about by the anti ID card brigade.
It's a slippery slope.
Well make no mistake folks, we're on it, at the top and it's going to be very hard to get off, especially when so many people think that the implications for the kind of thing Reichsmarshall Blunkett is proposing, are far fetched or ridiculous.
Orwell's predictions were just 40 years too early.
And so is anybody who actually believes that a compulsory biometric ID card will stop terrorism.
Imagine for a moment that I have lost my marbles and have decided to wage war on the democratically elected government of the UK.
Imagine that I'm doing this at a time when ID cards are in use and have all the techno gubbins in place.
My ability to obtain the ingredients for bomb making would undoubtedly be hindered.
Instead of being able to pop into my local chemical supplier after having previously set up a business as a janitorial supplies company therby legitimising my possesion of all sorts of nasty things, I would have to steal them. As we all know, terrorist masterminds have never thought of stealing things before so I'll be breaking new ground here.
Each time I get stopped by the police in my van I have invoices and purchase orders for all the nasty contents and gues what else?
My ID checks out! I'm Martyn Bogg-Cleaner, Director of Brite-Bogs, Janitorial supplies and cleaning products.
What the stupid copper doesn't know is that in reality I'm Martyn "Mad Dog" C*******, bent on the bloody demise of the UK Gov and anybody who knows them.
You get the picture.
Its a sick joke and Blunkett is just loving every column inch the Mail, Telegraph and Sun print about how we're being "taken over" by "illegals" and that our lives are in mortal danger from terrorists. There may of course be a grain of truth in the last part of that statement but issuing ID cards to everybody isn't going to help one little bit in preventing a car bomb going off or a home made mortar being fired.
ID cards will allow the british government to control your every move.
It starts with name & address.
You are going to have to produce the card in order to obtain NHS treatment or DHSS benefits.
My records going back to 1956 don't count now then?
Then they'll extend its capabilities, all the while assuring you that it will be good for you.
First your blood group perhaps in case you are in an accident. See how much the government cares about your health and safety?
Never mind that the paramedic on the scene and the hospital would be able in 10 years if not now, to whack a load of oxygen carrying synthetic stuff into you to keep you alive.
Crimanl convictions would be a cert too.
After all, if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to hide.
Then DNA profile. And whilst we're at it we'll have your stated religion and your political affiliations.
You'll have to produce to vote.
You'll have to produce to enter libraries and produce to withdraw books.
Taking home that new biog of Karl Marx isn't such a good idea now is it?
We've put all that on so why are you now objecting to your full medical history being on there? It's for your own good. Surely you can see that?
That misspent youth with the booze and the weed just didn't go down too well with the prospective employer did it? Such a shame that the government allowed companies to insist on full access to ID when recruiting. They said they wanted to be sure they weren't hiring a terrorist.
Yes madam, your application to be considered for motherhood has been turned down.
Your ID confirms our belief that you would be unsuitable on mental and physical health grounds. It's no good whining about having grown up and changed. Those flings at uni and the std clearly indicate that you're not a "good girl". What were you thinking?
In the coming months we'll hear the following phrase bandied about by the anti ID card brigade.
It's a slippery slope.
Well make no mistake folks, we're on it, at the top and it's going to be very hard to get off, especially when so many people think that the implications for the kind of thing Reichsmarshall Blunkett is proposing, are far fetched or ridiculous.
Orwell's predictions were just 40 years too early.
What's the weather like on planet zog today , Martyn.
I have no problem with ID cards. I'll accept them on the day that the MP's agree to have compulsory lie detector tests. Shouldn't be a problem - unless they've got something to hide...
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 30 2004, 12:04 PM)
What's the weather like on planet zog today , Martyn.
Sorry, what's that you say klf? You can't make an intelligent response to Martyn's post, did you say? You've lost the argument but are trying to make it look like you haven't, did you say? Everyone on the forum but you has to resort to petty insults instead of formulating arguments, did you say?
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 30 2004, 01:04 PM)
What's the weather like on planet zog today , Martyn.
hoorah!
at last, a sane and well thought out response from kfc.
Not.
numpty.
Martyn's post got the responce it deserved.
I challenged those arguments the last time he made them......i didn't fancy repeating myself.....anyway i thought a ' ' summed up my feelings nicely.
I challenged those arguments the last time he made them......i didn't fancy repeating myself.....anyway i thought a '
' summed up my feelings nicely.
QUOTE(Joe @ Apr 30 2004, 01:07 PM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 30 2004, 12:04 PM)
What's the weather like on planet zog today , Martyn.
Sorry, what's that you say klf? You can't make an intelligent response to Martyn's post, did you say? You've lost the argument but are trying to make it look like you haven't, did you say? Everyone on the forum but you has to resort to petty insults instead of formulating arguments, did you say?
I've always said that resorting to abuse means that person is losing the argument.
I think i'll add 'being a punctuation facist' to the list.
Numpty.
KLF go play with the traffic cops.
KLF go play with the traffic cops.
Let's have a new thread.
neveski's word of the week
neveski's word of the week
nev(no e)skis word of the week.
i think it sums you up nicely KLF.
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumpty!
i think it sums you up nicely KLF.
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynu
mptynumpty
numptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumptynumpty!
klf, please to be not being an annoying lying hypocrite. Thanks.
Insults AND references to punctuation. 
A double-wammy.!!!
Now you really are admitting defeat.
A double-wammy.!!!
Now you really are admitting defeat.
i think to admit defeat, such words as those below would have to be offered:
I admit defeat.
I give in
I'm sorry KFC, you appear to be right, how could we ever have doubted you?
look look i am waving a white flag.
blimey there spoke the voice of reason, with a well thought out, and researched post, backed up with evidence and based in truth, i wish i was as clever and astute as the colonel.
i haven't noticed any of these utterances. but if you want to believe in your head that you've defeated your red enemy, then you carry on thinking that.
numpty. (see other thread for definition)
I admit defeat.
I give in
I'm sorry KFC, you appear to be right, how could we ever have doubted you?
look look i am waving a white flag.
blimey there spoke the voice of reason, with a well thought out, and researched post, backed up with evidence and based in truth, i wish i was as clever and astute as the colonel.
i haven't noticed any of these utterances. but if you want to believe in your head that you've defeated your red enemy, then you carry on thinking that.
numpty. (see other thread for definition)
QUOTE(the klf @ Apr 30 2004, 04:01 PM)
Insults AND references to punctuation.
A double-wammy.!!!
Now you really are admitting defeat.
A double-wammy.!!!
Now you really are admitting defeat.
We're almost at the "I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?" stage of klf's "debate".
klf, please get an education and then come back and try again, you are wasting all of our time if the likes of Martyn and Nevski write long posts and you're too stupid to have a clue what they're talking about.
Martyn and Nevski may have written long posts....but they were repeating themselves,and i'm damned if i'll do the same.
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