David Blunkett today announced a voluntary I.D card initiative,leading in time to a compulsory I.D cards.

Does anyone have any objections to I.D cards being introduced,and if so why.?

I personally can see many benifits to having I .D cards.....the only disadvantage i can see will be the cost ,estimates between £25-35 per person.

It depends what information is on the card. If the information just gives name, address and date of birth, then it's okay. Some IS cards list one's religioun or ethnicity, and I think that is wrong.

I have no problem with an id card, but that very much depends on the authority of the police.
If an ID becomes obligatory, do you have to be able to show it when asked for it?
does the police have the right to ask you for it?
If so, guess who will be stopped in the streets? Not me, with my pretty blue eyes...

In Holland it wasnt obligatory for a long time (the 'ausweiss bitte' trauma), but it's almost impossible to live without one (try opening a bank account). I think it will be law to have one very soon now (maybe already is), but Dutch police can't ask you for it. I think.


Ps: the police, single or plural?

I have no problem with I.D. cards but I do echo the concerns raised by both Carol and Leontien. I also feel that the idea that I may commit an offence by simply stepping out of my front door and walking into the street without said I.D. on my person quite disturbing. I am willing to have an I.D. card on the proviso that I may present same within a reasonable period at a police station of my choice, the same condition that applies to a driving license.

The Americans wax lyrical over the constitutional right to bear arms. I am British and as such I have the right to 'walk the Queen's Highway without let or hinderance'. Long may it be so!

It is far easier to give up your rights than regain them. Honesty, law and order have my full support, a police state doesn't, there are far more issues involved here than in your simplistic statement klf. It's too easy to put forward a Utopian concept, much harder to make it work.

Present me with evidence of a police force free of racialist, masonic corruption and human frailty and I'm with you all the way. I won't hold my breath.

Tallship......At present,an individual is allowed to produce their driving licence and/or documents at a police station of their choice IF the police have checked your details [ie..name and address on their computer and if satisfied you are who you say you are]......surely if you could hand them you I.D card it would save a lot of time.

I'm sure it will be the same with producing your I.D....if you havn't got it on you....the police can check your records against their computer,and IF happy will issue a 'producer'.

I knew 'race' would be mentioned straight away........Let's put it this way, I have to work nights quite a lot for my job,and in the last few years i have been stopped by the police 4 or 5 times on my way to work.....for no other reason than to enquire what i was doing driving about at such a time and where i was going.....once that was quickly established i was on my way.

rather than feel paranoid about being stopped......i was comforted that the police were trying to keep the streets safe.

I accept that i will get stopped more,because of the time i spend on the road.


Let's not kid ourselves about I.D cards........The main reason for introducing them is to try to cut crime and make it easier to detect illegal aliens (as you americans call it).


Ahh!....... the utopia of not being made a criminal for just 'being'........how about the good old 'TV 'licence or council tax.?

Also ,no -one complains that another country must know who you are,before they allow you in.(ie...a passport).

I still say, if you've got nothing to hide,an I.D card will have more benifits than drawbacks.

The problem klf, is that there has been a negative history of identifying some groups as "Roma" or "Jew."

I would also say that in the US, if you are black or brown, you might be fearful about being stopped by the police.

I do not think race or religion should be on an I.D card.......just name,address,and photo.

Based on your own lack of concentration I hardly think your arguments warrants an answer.

My ethnicity is white fair-haired anglo-saxon with over 600 years of tracable ancestry. My last stint on nights was twelve years - six nights a week, and I've entertained more than enough coppers for an early morning cuppa than enough because they were 'just doing thier job' and wanted to know where I was going at that time in a morning.

My current job requires that I carry two forms of I.D. at all times on duty both of which have my N.I. number and photograph.

I have no secrets, I just want to get pissed on my day off without excusing myself to anyone.

...And once introduced no future administration would dream of including such info, would they?

I'm heartily sick to the back teeth of hearing people drone on about how "if you've got nothing to hide..." etc etc.

I have nothing to hide but I'll be bolloxed if I'll carry an ID card.
I have a passport, a photo driving licence, why would I need anything else?
Well, it might be so that the copper doing the questioning, who's a member of the BNP, can find out without asking that I'm a member of a leftwing political movement, that I donate to the Anti Nazi League, that I'm jewish, that I'm homosexual, that I have a guzzillion unpaid parking tickets,whatever... the whole idea reeks of state control over my every movement from the second I wake to the second I drop off to sleep. 1984, Big Brother, all that shit.

It'll help keep out illegals?
How will that work then?
Because as we all know the second an illegal alien comes into the country he or she throws him or herself into society with gusto drawing as much attention to themselves as possible at every and any opportunity.

Just suppose the things were as benign as we'd like them to be. Thatchers arse licker, Howard would be on them like a shot if he came to be PM adding all sorts of private personal info and making them compulsory.

Countries that have/had compulsory ID...USSR under Stalin, South Africa under apartheid, Germany under the Nazis.
Countries that don't have ID...USA, UK, long may it remain so.

The police are a bunch of lazy right wing arseholes and I see no reason why I should work my balls off to make a living and then do their job for them catching criminals.

Blunkett can fuck off with his tawdry fascist /stalinist ideas.

I'll never carry one and I'll never pay a fine for not carrying one.

The left is now right and the right is mad as a hatter and there's nowhere for me to run to to escape them.

Erm...this is the Billy Bragg fans forum, isn't it ? It's that NO WAY should we even be debating this,the answer should be NO.
Paying for the 'privelege?' Now they're really taking the piss!!!
Is 1984 trying to seep through yet again?
If these ever did attempt to bring this in then I, and a lot of others would ignore/boycott the whole idea.
BB himself would probably encourage people to take these cards (if they were 'free') to his own gigs and chuck them on the stage so he could get rid of them for us.

What you gonna want to debate next eh? Maybe arming the same Police that you often can't trust with truncheons.

Oh dear dear me...........(shaking his head)................ goodnight

Martyn......With that tyrade, you have gone straight to the top of the list of my 'BB forums-deranged extremists'.

The current top 5 is as follows:

1. Martyn
2. Alberr
3. Fred E
4. Dickie
5. Carol


Who else fancies making it to this illustrious list.....or moving up a place or two.?


P.S. matt w......not even top 20....must try harder.

Come on, klf, I want to be Number One.

I agree with everything Martyn said and add some polished brass knobs.

Myself and the not so loony leftie person I share two kids and bodily fluids with (herein known as mrs Dickie) Will go to prison before we carry one

Are we number one now?

My gawd, I don't want to go to prison for this issue. I'd carry a fake ID before I volunteered imprisonment. I have no scruples, I guess.

Maybe you'd better knock me off your list, klf.

We're serious Carol!!

It's really hard to stop myself from ranting on so for now

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/iss.../id-cards.shtml

and follow the links.

Well, be seeing you in prison then Dickie(and I don't mean on a visit)
with you all the way

I hope you don't snore.

BTW - There is only one company in the UK with the 'chip tech' to produce these I.D. cards and the share price is rising at at an amazing rate.

Watch this space for details on directors etc.

Only if I don't get the top bunk.

You're on the floor mate! Martyn and me have bagged the bunks!

I'll get back onto 3B then (drugs free wing) there's only 6 doubles and then it's back to one of the few 'decent' Victorian values there ever has been.

I think the point is Carol,that I.D cards represent the 'Establishment'.......and a lot of
our friends on here are anarchists at heart.

Liberty dosn't cut it as an argument for me.....Large parts of our lives are already controlled by 'government'........How fast we can drive....what time we can drink in a pub to......film censorship.....age of concent.

Sometimes the individuals personal liberty has to be infringed to benifit the population as a whole.

KLF- So do you think it is worth 2 billion pounds to introduce and administer?

In the US, it isn't illegal not to have IDs, although if you are committing civil disobedience, it helps to carry a drivers license or state ID--you get out of jail faster, she says from experience. The federal government doesn't have an ID--that is a function of the states.

I see no reason to carry ID cards. It seems odd to me, especially since you can always get fake ones. I carry mine, but it expired two years ago. Since I don't drive, it doesn't seem important for me to carry a current one.

I'd go to jail with you guys if I could share Martyn's bunk, but I don't think Maria will let me.

Thats my main concern.......Apparently a sizeable part of the cost involves making the cards 'unfakeable' otherwise the sceme will be a waste of time.

Due to the cost i'm undecided,but apart from the argument that the police might abuse their powers,regarding stopping people.....i can't see why there is such strong reaction against them.

Glad I made it to number 3, KLF!

You'll be totally amazed to know that for me the jury's out on this one. I share the fears of a police state put forward by Tallship and alluded to by both Martyn and Dickie. In practice, I already carry one. All credit cards here have to have your photo on them (what about where you are Leontien?) and I have a yellow card with my person number on (which is my key to everything here), no photo, but the name of my doctore and my address. There was massive resistance to them when they were introduced. But as a result of concessions won by opponents on tightening data protection and not having to have your photo on the yellow card, most people of all political persuasions carry them.

As a foreign national here, I also have to carry a card on which my photo appears, my person number and where it states that I have permanent residence status. I've never been asked by a copper to produce my yellow card apart from the time I jumped a red light on my bike and got fined £50.

Your picture on your credit card? That's bonkers!
We now only have one form of ID that's excepted everywhere: our passport.
But the places they ask for it are ludicrous. Want to pick up a parcel?: bring your passport. They'll happily hand it to you if you had opened the door, but if you weren't at home, bring your passport.
And a passport it valid for 5 years, so the adres is not always current.
Mr Lover has to bring TWO forms of ID to his MSCE exams!

It's silly and annoying. And I SO DON'T CARE for KLF's 'I'm glad the police keep us safe' crap. Have you seen the man on Michael Moore's show that was stopped 140 times in one year? Doesn't happen to you, but it happens to others.

But, that's not legal here, so I don't care about needing a passport. Only the cost...

you've got to take your passport when you register at recruitment consultants and agencies over here now, it's weird but I can understand that they're trying to protect themselves for employing someone without a work permit.

I'm amibvolus (sic) about ID cards. Part of me hates them and the other part thinks they're a good idea, as long as it was limited info (which it won't be) but you'd have to have it with you 24x7 for it to work, eg being that when my father in law died, he lay in the hospital morgue for over 5 hours while we were out looking for him. IF he'd had an id card (of any kind) we'd have know sooner.

But that's only my thought, the fact that he didn't have any id on him kind of negates the idea of having an id card system.

I'm inside with Dickie and Martyn. As Martyn said briefly here, and at greater length on the old forum I think, it is unnecessary and based on dodgy motives. I have a passport, driving licence, work ID thing, bank stuff, fucking Sainsbury's reward card (for my sins), donor card and my blood groups in my diary (B Positive). They can whistle if there's anything else they want to know.

But what I want is a solid argument against them. Not saying there isn't one (or many), I'd just like someone to present it or point me in the right direction.

3 things.

1: Read your post and knew right away that you were up for some lefty baiting. Happy to play.
2: Absolutely delighted to be number one loony lefty.
3: It's tirade.

"I'm inside with Dickie and Martyn.

We're going to need a BB forum creche.

Fred E Check the link I gave previously and have a look at the pamphlet. It's an Adobe doc.

BTW - It is very unlikely to happen here for at least another decade if ever.

BB forums-deranged extremist

So that's what I am ... I bet you sat up all night with your friends thinking that up ...

Wow!

Now without getting personal ... what does that make you?

We have id cards here in Queensland already. If you turn 18 and don't have a learner licence or your opens you can apply for an 18+ card. Has your name, card number, photo, d.o.b and thats about it. I'd be lost without it as its the only thing accepted (besides licenses and passports) I don't see what the big problem is.

Missed this when it got posted but must respond Leontien.

I happen to think that a photo on your credit/bank card would be a good idea.

Only last week some (I was going to say some very rude things but have thought better of it) silly person asked me to sign my till thingy twice more to prove that it was my sig on the card because it "doesn't look like your signature".

Well, it was 02:30, I'd had 3 hours sleep, I was on my way to work and was LATE! and if I had been a criminal why would I limit my spending to a bottle of Tesco Kick and a sandwich?

I showed her my driving licence. WITH MY PICTURE ON IT, DAVID!

Anyway, if my mug had been on the card the problem wouldn't have arisen and the card would be useless to all but the most masterful of masters of disguise. You could leave it lying around anywhere, I'd have thought.

Also and this is a good point, even if I do say so myself, with credit/bank cards that included and neat piccy of oneself in the corner, the banks would be paying and even if they did pass on the costs it would be in tiny increments over long periods and we'd not be the slightest bit put out. Well I wouldn't.

This in itself would be another nail in the coffin for Blunketts compulsory ID scheme.

Just a thought, but on subject I think, are we the only European country that doesn't have ID cards?

This link probably answers your question Al

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2078604.stm

QUOTE

After all, citizens from 11 out of the 15 nations of the European Union carry ID cards as a part of everyday life.

Thanks Dickie, thought it must be something like that figure, everywhere I go in Europe people seem to be carrying ID cards.

Well, we don't
Heard on the news today: They want every 14 year old to be able to show an ID card when asked by police. They want this to happen in two years. Discussions are now focussing on when it is appropriate for police to aks for an ID....

And no-one over here EVER has checked my signature with my creditcard, EVER!

Well said!

I think, in the UK, that most people are not bothered one way or the other, but that is possibly because the majority of them are so poorly educated or engaged in any sort of independent political thinking.

We are obliged to identify ourselves if asked by the police, otherwise it could be a trip to the nick while identity is established. My experiences of this sort of incident is having to give my address to large hairy monsters, slightly out of breath, following rowdy behaviour. It is amazing how very soon the police confirm this via their little radio thingies. Even before they've taken their hands off your collar sometimes. Now that is scary, even before we get ID cards.

Incidentally, I already have a UK ID card, even children carried them during WW2!!

The Dutch parliament discussion on the ID card is taking on Kafka-esk proportions.
Basically the proposal is as such:
- It is obligatory to show an ID on the spot if a policeman asks you to
- It is NOT obligatory to carry and ID at all times.

So, you have a 'show'duty, but not a 'carry' duty......

Right.....

No mine, Leontien. They check it as matter of course in the UK though.



It may be partly this, Alberr. But I think it simply is the case that nobody is really telling us what is at stake, or what the dangers are IN CONCRETE TERMS.

I've been to the Liberty site and am a member of Charter 88 (who also oppose id cards). I want to take a position on this argument because it's clearly important enough for people to get very heated about, but at the moment i don't think I can.

Yes Fred, I meant lack of education on the possible dangers of ID cards. I'll check out the Liberty site ...

Found this,

Maybe I shouldn't be so complacent about these ID cards ...

But Alberr, over here you can't open a bankaccount without a passport. Simple as that.

Maria couldn't open a bank account WITH her passport.

The Nationwide Building Society do not recognise a US passport as valid ID however they do accept a copy of an electricity bill for this flat with her name added to it after ringing up the electricity company and saying " Please add a name to the Bill"

I bet theives and terrorists are too stupid to think of doing that.

All goes to show: it's a flawed ID (ouch, the pun, THE PUN)....

Fred, I've never seen a credit card with your photo on it, or considered that one could be made a bona fide form of primary identification, but what you're saying - about a compulsory national credit card, to be carried on you at all times - actually makes a lot of sense.

Why would anyone want to carry a credit card compulsorily?

I come from a country (Denmark) where although we do not have compulsory ID cards, have a person registrer and each person is given a unique number, by which identity and current address can be verifed.
And I have never had so many silly questions asked about my private life since moving to the UK. Every simple transaction seems to require credit history, gas bills, my fathers name, my husbonds occupation, my address for the last 3 years and my employers telephone number. If you think that by not having an ID card (or similar) you are more private/independent, I think you are wrong. I am bloody tired of carying around my utility bills!!!

It's not that I'll feel more independent or private. What I will feel is more in control.

I can prove my identity in a variety of ways especially now that we have photo driving licences.
People who don't drive could well choose to adopt some form of photo ID which matched their physical appearance up to an address and perhaps their NI (national insurance) number.

My objection is to being forced by law to carry a document which can and most certainly would, unless we fight tooth and nail to prevent it, carry our political affiliations, our voting habits, our sexuality, our medical history, our criminal record, indeed anything a repressive authoritative regime might choose to include.
They would reach a point where they would not even have to give reasons for including a certain piece of info.
The "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" argument will be hurled into our faces until we submit.
We must do no such thing.

A policeman can find out who owns a car and where it's supposed to be kept in seconds, without even getting out into the cold and the rain.
When he asks you for your licence he already has a good idea what name he'll see. He knows where you live.
Why should he also know if you're gay, or HIV positive or a marxist? What has that got to do with exceeding the speed limit?

As the years pass succesive governments who trumpet their commitment to Freedom and Democracy, remove and rescind those very freedoms and democratic rights in dribs and drabs. Nobody really notices too much. Nobody really cares too much.
One day some duplicitious power mad bastard like Blunkett will decide that even though the term of government is officially up for this administration, elections will not be held "because the situation is not condusive for those elections to be conducted safely" or some other such bullshit reason.

Some of us will react by taking to the streets.
The ID card inspections will reveal a whole mass of lefty agitators who are clearly out to destabilise the government of the UK and will be promptly arrested whereupon, as serious threats to national security, they'll languish in gaols without trial and without visitor rights and without recourse to legal representation.

Ridiculous? Can't happen?

It already does.

As i said to maria yesterday ,Martyn.......behave !!!

In your wildest dreams,do you really believe an I.D card would EVER contain political/voting habits,sexuality,medical history,criminal record......paranoia??

It is going to take 10-15 years to get an I.D with 'name/d.o.b/NI No'........i certainly wouldn't back an ID card that requires more mandatory information than that.

talking about volunatary forms of ID is pointless......only the law abiding would have them.

Also ,the reason the police ask for you driving licence is to SEE if it matches with the registered-owner of the car.



''The id card inspections will reveal a whole mass of lefty agitators who are clearly out to destabilise the government of the uk''.

Well its definately got my vote,now.