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Martyn
Tried to find a thread in which to discuss the Iranian election but failed dismally.
Didn't try very hard, it must be conceded but I haven't got all night.
OK, I have but I'm lazy. What else can I say?

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes...

Some people seem to feel that the western media are biased in favour of anti-Ahmedinejad Iranians.

I read this...

US Media Campaign to Discredit Iranian Election
By Charting Stock
Was the Iranian election a fraud? That's what our great western media sources want us to believe. While scanning through the coverage, I could not find one mainstream news article which covered the election results in an objective, unbiased manner.



But also from the Information Clearing House I read two stories backing up the claims that the incumbent was assisted to his win by massive blatant fraud.

Iran Protesters Defy Rally Ban

By Al Jazeera

In his first public appearance since the elections three days ago, Mir Hossein Mousavi, the defeated presidential candidate, told supporters at the rally in Tehran on Monday that he would take part if new elections were called.
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uEe9OUWopAL1k1PvOX6cJOqmqkzyTvj3BrR9Yns7QiQea2gNxlAjggPlOxxu0OWo-PGy_MAOw7SxdC_QqF2RC6Fp5"]
[/url]

===

The Iranian Vote: Citizen Journalism Round-up

By Jessica Reed

As Iranian commenters claim that "traditional media have completely failed" them following the outcome of Friday's vote, many turned citizen journalists overnight - using collaborative platforms to publish their pictures and live accounts of what has been happening on the ground as efficiently as possible. Here's a selection of links to some interesting pages in English.


I'm thinking that maybe Charting Stock - is that a real name? - might have done better to wait 24 hours before weighing in on the western media. Looks like Al Jazeera is leaning toward the opinion that Mr Ahmadinejad is a cheating bastard too.



The BBC did manage to find an Ahmadinejad supporter prepared to go on record...




QUOTE
The Iranian government views the BBC as a symbol of western corruption, so few supporters of President Ahmadinejad get in touch. Khalid Tehrani is one of them and emailed his dissatisfaction with the reformist protesters:

"This election was as fair and independent as it could be in any western country. The people who claim vote rigging should look first into the election of George W Bush in 2000 and how it was stolen from Al Gore. The West is a sore loser when it comes to the result of a democracy which is against its wishes."



Now whatever you might think of the way the election in Iran was conducted you can't argue with that.
Can you?

Oh FFS! None of those bloddy links work. I'll try and fix 'em.
Martyn
I think I might try and do a poll now because clearly I'm on form vis-a-vis the ability to post with hyper links etc.
rolleyes.gif
Alberr
Hi Martyn, I am very sceptical about the claimed vote rigging. If it happened then surely it must have been on a truly mammoth scale, involving thousands of people.

I remember watching the media coverage of the urban middle class protests in Santiago. It was initially protrayed as a popular, universal uprising of the people of Chile against socialism. Most of the reporting on Allende and his democratically elected government was negative. We now know that the 'popular' uprising was an exageration of the opposition of a small group of the rich and powerful urban middle class and that the US played a major role in supporting them and the military coup of the fascist General Pinochet.

But we don't have to go that far back. Just look at the US led media reaction to the people of Palestine daring to democratically elect their own choice of government.

(Strange that the reporting of the democratic election of two British fascists to the Eruopean Parliament has, on the whole, been so muted.)

Now, after weeks of predicting the end of the road for the present government, something that I personally found hard to believe, and pumping up the media speculation until they began to believe their own propaganda, we hear that the US are 'worried' about the election in Iran.
Perhaps they will overcome their 'worry' by providing more positive support to any group of malcontents that will cheer on the US and have a go at bringing down their own government.

After all it wouldn't be the first time the US brought down a government in that part of the world now, would it?

cool.gif
Martyn
QUOTE
Just look at the US led media reaction to the people of Palestine daring to democratically elect their own choice of government.


Yes, of course. I actually had that in mind whilst posting earlier and didn't include it because I could see myself going off on another anti Israel rant.

But you're absolutely right and it seems clear now that much of what has been written about the lack of support for Ahmadinejad was coloured by wishful thinking.

Mir Hossein Mousavi has declared no interest in a re run of the election so as these correspondents put it..

Ahmadinejad won! Get over it.

[/font]
QUOTE
[font="Times"]By FLYNT LEVERETT AND HILLARY MANN LEVERETT

June 16, 2009 "
Politico" -- -Without any evidence, many U.S. politicians and “Iran experts” have dismissed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s reelection Friday, with 62.6 percent of the vote, as fraud.

They ignore the fact that Ahmadinejad’s 62.6 percent of the vote in this year’s election is essentially the same as the 61.69 percent he received in the final count of the 2005 presidential election, when he trounced former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. The shock of the “Iran experts” over Friday’s results is entirely self-generated, based on their preferred assumptions and wishful thinking.

Although Iran’s elections are not free by Western standards, the Islamic Republic has a 30-year history of highly contested and competitive elections at the presidential, parliamentary and local levels. Manipulation has always been there, as it is in many other countries.

But upsets occur — as, most notably, with Mohammed Khatami’s surprise victory in the 1997 presidential election. Moreover, “blowouts” also occur — as in Khatami’s reelection in 2001, Ahmadinejad’s first victory in 2005 and, we would argue, this year.

Like much of the Western media, most American “Iran experts” overstated Mir Hossein Mousavi’s “surge” over the campaign’s final weeks. More important, they were oblivious — as in 2005 — to Ahmadinejad’s effectiveness as a populist politician and campaigner. American “Iran experts” missed how Ahmadinejad was perceived by most Iranians as having won the nationally televised debates with his three opponents — especially his debate with Mousavi.

Before the debates, both Mousavi and Ahmadinejad campaign aides indicated privately that they perceived a surge of support for Mousavi; after the debates, the same aides concluded that Ahmadinejad’s provocatively impressive performance and Mousavi’s desultory one had boosted the incumbent’s standing. Ahmadinejad’s charge that Mousavi was supported by Rafsanjani’s sons — widely perceived in Iranian society as corrupt figures — seemed to play well with voters.

Similarly, Ahmadinejad’s criticism that Mousavi’s reformist supporters, including Khatami, had been willing to suspend Iran’s uranium enrichment program and had won nothing from the West for doing so tapped into popular support for the program — and had the added advantage of being true.

More fundamentally, American “Iran experts” consistently underestimated Ahmadinejad’s base of support. Polling in Iran is notoriously difficult; most polls there are less than fully professional and, hence, produce results of questionable validity. But the one poll conducted before Friday’s election by a Western organization that was transparent about its methodology — a telephone poll carried out by the Washington-based Terror-Free Tomorrow from May 11 to 20 — found Ahmadinejad running 20 points ahead of Mousavi. This poll was conducted before the televised debates in which, as noted above, Ahmadinejad was perceived to have done well while Mousavi did poorly.

American “Iran experts” assumed that “disastrous” economic conditions in Iran would undermine Ahmadinejad’s reelection prospects. But the International Monetary Fund projects that Iran’s economy will actually grow modestly this year (when the economies of most Gulf Arab states are in recession). A significant number of Iranians — including the religiously pious, lower-income groups, civil servants and pensioners — appear to believe that Ahmadinejad’s policies have benefited them.

And, while many Iranians complain about inflation, the TFT poll found that most Iranian voters do not hold Ahmadinejad responsible. The “Iran experts” further argue that the high turnout on June 12 — 82 percent of the electorate — had to favor Mousavi. But this line of analysis reflects nothing more than assumptions.

Some “Iran experts” argue that Mousavi’s Azeri background and “Azeri accent” mean that he was guaranteed to win Iran’s Azeri-majority provinces; since Ahmadinejad did better than Mousavi in these areas, fraud is the only possible explanation.

But Ahmadinejad himself speaks Azeri quite fluently as a consequence of his eight years serving as a popular and successful official in two Azeri-majority provinces; during the campaign, he artfully quoted Azeri and Turkish poetry — in the original — in messages designed to appeal to Iran’s Azeri community. (And we should not forget that the supreme leader is Azeri.) The notion that Mousavi was somehow assured of victory in Azeri-majority provinces is simply not grounded in reality.

With regard to electoral irregularities, the specific criticisms made by Mousavi — such as running out of ballot paper in some precincts and not keeping polls open long enough (even though polls stayed open for at least three hours after the announced closing time) — could not, in themselves, have tipped the outcome so clearly in Ahmadinejad’s favor.

Moreover, these irregularities do not, in themselves, amount to electoral fraud even by American legal standards. And, compared with the U.S. presidential election in Florida in 2000, the flaws in Iran’s electoral process seem less significant.

In the wake of Friday’s election, some “Iran experts” — perhaps feeling burned by their misreading of contemporary political dynamics in the Islamic Republic — argue that we are witnessing a “conservative coup d’état,” aimed at a complete takeover of the Iranian state.

But one could more plausibly suggest that if a “coup” is being attempted, it has been mounted by the losers in Friday’s election. It was Mousavi, after all, who declared victory on Friday even before Iran’s polls closed. And three days before the election, Mousavi supporter Rafsanjani published a letter criticizing the leader’s failure to rein in Ahmadinejad’s resort to “such ugly and sin-infected phenomena as insults, lies and false allegations.” Many Iranians took this letter as an indication that the Mousavi camp was concerned their candidate had fallen behind in the campaign’s closing days.

In light of these developments, many politicians and “Iran experts” argue that the Obama administration cannot now engage the “illegitimate” Ahmadinejad regime. Certainly, the administration should not appear to be trying to “play” in the current controversy in Iran about the election. In this regard, President Barack Obama’s comments on Friday, a few hours before the polls closed in Iran, that “just as has been true in Lebanon, what can be true in Iran as well is that you’re seeing people looking at new possibilities” was extremely maladroit.

From Tehran’s perspective, this observation undercut the credibility of Obama’s acknowledgement, in his Cairo speech earlier this month, of U.S. complicity in overthrowing a democratically elected Iranian government and restoring the shah in 1953.

The Obama administration should vigorously rebut any argument against engaging Tehran following Friday’s vote. More broadly, Ahmadinejad’s victory may force Obama and his senior advisers to come to terms with the deficiencies and internal contradictions in their approach to Iran. Before the Iranian election, the Obama administration had fallen for the same illusion as many of its predecessors — the illusion that Iranian politics is primarily about personalities and finding the right personality to deal with. That is not how Iranian politics works.

The Islamic Republic is a system with multiple power centers; within that system, there is a strong and enduring consensus about core issues of national security and foreign policy, including Iran’s nuclear program and relations with the United States. Any of the four candidates in Friday’s election would have continued the nuclear program as Iran’s president; none would agree to its suspension.

Any of the four candidates would be interested in a diplomatic opening with the United States, but that opening would need to be comprehensive, respectful of Iran’s legitimate national security interests and regional importance, accepting of Iran’s right to develop and benefit from the full range of civil nuclear technology — including pursuit of the nuclear fuel cycle — and aimed at genuine rapprochement.

Such an approach would also, in our judgment, be manifestly in the interests of the United States and its allies throughout the Middle East. It is time for the Obama administration to get serious about pursuing this approach — with an Iranian administration headed by the reelected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Flynt Leverett directs The New America Foundation’s Iran Project and teaches international affairs at Pennsylvania State university. Hillary Mann Leverett is CEO of STRATEGA, a political risk consultancy. Both worked for many years on Middle East issues for the U.S. government, including as members of the National Security Council staff.

© 2009 Capitol News Company LLC

Tanya
QUOTE(Alberr @ Jun 16 2009, 03:26 PM) *
After all it wouldn't be the first time the US brought down a government in that part of the world now, would it?

Not just in that part of the world - in that very same country!

But I'm not so sure what the US would stand to gain by doing the same thing now, as Mousavi is known to support Iran's nuclear program, the main bone of contention between Iran and the West - so he'd be unlikely to make any changes there.
Alberr
QUOTE(Tanya @ Jun 17 2009, 09:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Alberr @ Jun 16 2009, 03:26 PM) *
After all it wouldn't be the first time the US brought down a government in that part of the world now, would it?

Not just in that part of the world - in that very same country!

Hi Tanya, my obscure little joke ... and of course my own country played a hand in it as well.


QUOTE
But I'm not so sure what the US would stand to gain by doing the same thing now, as Mousavi is known to support Iran's nuclear program, the main bone of contention between Iran and the West - so he'd be unlikely to make any changes there.

I think that nuclear energy is potentially vital to Iran's development ... and because we westerners have so little understanding of the Iranian people we can get very confused by the messages our media sell us ...
for instance this is a quote from the article that Martyn posted above : -

QUOTE
Similarly, Ahmadinejad’s criticism that Mousavi’s reformist supporters, including Khatami, had been willing to suspend Iran’s uranium enrichment program and had won nothing from the West for doing so tapped into popular support for the program — and had the added advantage of being true.


which seems to question the validity of Mousavi's position on nuclear energy. So did he or didn't he and is the nuclear programme really the most significant worry for the US? Iran can still function, unlike Iraq, and is still standing up to the US and Israel. Maybe that is what the boys in the Pentagon and the Government are worried about. And if their plans to unseat the Iranian government go wrong then they might possibly fall back on the good old 'Improving the new world order' bombing campaign. Israel is all geared up and ready to go.

I enjoyed that article Martyn, restored some of my faith in the possibility that not everyone out there is stupid ...
paulxx
The Iranian Revolution has begun!

And no matter which way it turns out, the consequences will be profound throughout the entire middle-east.

One millon people poured onto the streets today (wednesday) all over Iran. These were mostly workers, students and youth but included every section of society. The vast majority of Iranians are under 30 years old and have known only the brutal repression of the ruling mullahs. The ruling class has been stunned by the scale of this popular uprising. So have the western imperialists like Obama and Brown, who are being very careful not to undermine the regime too much. They would much rather have Ahmedinejad and the theocracy in power than a socialist Iran.

Unfortunately the uprising is, at the moment, leaderless. Mir-Hossein Mossavi is not the leader of this revolution he is merely a historical accident. Like a balloon being tossed around by a crowd. There is no fundamental difference between him and Ahmedinejad and Rafsanjani. Mousavi has been thrust into the spotlight and he is standing there bewildered like a rabbit in the headlights. I expect that eventually he will show his true class colours and do everything he can to sabotage the revolution.

The last time this many Iranians were on the streets was during the revolution in 1979 to overthrow the brutal American-puppet dictator, the Shah of Iran. This revolution was eventually hijacked by the mullahs and most of the socialists, marxists, trade unionists involved were rounded up and slaughtered. The uprising was then decreed to be an Islamic Revolution. Lessons have been learned from the past and the Iranian masses will not allow this to happen again. The character of the present revolutionary upsurge is undoubtedly socialist.

Almost all the conditions for a socialist revolution exist in Iran. If the workers can build a revolutionary party, in the coming months, to lead the revolution then a successful transformation of society is possible.
Martyn
QUOTE
restored some of my faith in the possibility that not everyone out there is stupid ...


Thanks Al.

Americans are not stupid. They're also unbelievably hard working, friendly and generous.

Far too many of them are a little insecure but that's because they're so isolated. Which sounds crazy because this country is mind bogglingly vast, powerful and populous. But that's the problem. Big business runs the media. Big business buys the government. The electorate has difficulty hearing more than one side of a story.

Sadly the world hears too much from the scum sucking filth that feeds at the bottom of the ultra right wing conservative pond. They scream and yell so loudly it's hard to ignore them. And we don't and they thrive.
On our outrage and dismay.

I've found my love for America and Americans swells in direct proportion to how little I listen to my CB radio.

laugh.gif

BTW, whatever Paul takes for his optimism; I want some.
JBoyd
QUOTE(Martyn @ Jun 16 2009, 05:06 AM) *

QUOTE
The Iranian government views the BBC as a symbol of western corruption, so few supporters of President Ahmadinejad get in touch. Khalid Tehrani is one of them and emailed his dissatisfaction with the reformist protesters:

"This election was as fair and independent as it could be in any western country. The people who claim vote rigging should look first into the election of George W Bush in 2000 and how it was stolen from Al Gore. The West is a sore loser when it comes to the result of a democracy which is against its wishes."


Now whatever you might think of the way the election in Iran was conducted you can't argue with that.
Can you?


Generally, no, but in this case, I think the West has been fairly muted in its response to recent events: 'expressing concern' seems to be about as far as anyone's gone and that's hardly an unequivocal condemnation. This may be because Mossavi is actually only slightly more pro-Western than Ahmedinejad.

My guess is that no-one outside the Iranian regime really knows what happened in the election and that there may be a significant split between Tehran and the rural areas. I don't think that there is a shred of evidence that this is the beginning of a Socialist Revolution. It's more likely to be similar to the Russian coup of 1991.
Alberr
QUOTE(paulxx @ Jun 17 2009, 10:38 PM) *

The Iranian Revolution has begun!

........................

The character of the present revolutionary upsurge is undoubtedly socialist.

Almost all the conditions for a socialist revolution exist in Iran. If the workers can build a revolutionary party, in the coming months, to lead the revolution then a successful transformation of society is possible.


Paul, I enjoy reading your contributions on here and I still need to respond to some of them. But this caught my eye and I envy you your wonderful way of seeing the world. If Leon was still around he may well have echoed your thoughts, concentrating on the pragmatic assessment of events that, however bizarre they may seem, can be turned to a (Socialist) revolutionary advantage.

But where is the but? The but is that this is not an uprising, it is certainly not a revolution, and it does not seem to have any support outside of the urban areas. Reality on the ground points to outside interests financing an attempted coup and some stupid people in Iran supporting it.

I listened to the Supreme Leader today, BBC24 broadcast most of his speech live. He quoted the 'Velvet Revolution' in Georgia as an analogy with the recent events in Iran. He referred to the leader of the Georgian coup as a man who openly boasted of the thirty million dollars he had been given to organise the overthrow of the Georgian government. He said that the people of Georgia were stupid to have been so easily fooled. He went on to ask the US and Britain, "Do you think the Iranian people are stupid?"

I don't think they are ...
Martyn
I've only seen this bit of the speech Al, is it the same one?

"Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has described the UK government as "evil".

I couldn't help wondering if there would ever have been such a thing as a British Empire had the Internet existed 200 or more years ago.
It must have been so much easier to con the kings, princes, sheiks and chiefs of all the tribes, clans and countries whose natural resources you took a fancy to.
Alberr
Yep, that's the one. It's a long speech and covers quite a lot of ground. As a card carrying infidel I am unable to appreciate some of it but he did give us some stick.

It's difficult to find some point in our history where we actually did anything good in Mesopotamia. We did support the Arab uprising against the Ottoman empire but then we pinched most of the land back for ourselves. I think Peter O'Toole was on the piss at the time and promised the locals more than the French and British governments were prepared to give. But we did give them Israel as compensation twenty years later ... there I go ... rambling away again!

Perhaps we should send our Middle East Piss Envoy over to speak to him, point out how caring a society we are and how much we just adore Muslims, especially if they have large oil reserves. Tony's already done the Pope, it's time he took Cherie and the kids to whoop it up with an Ayatollah. Put it on expenses ...
Leontien
I have been away and watched only the French breakfast news. But France has a large (outraged) Iranian community. But they didn't give any 'proof' of vote tampering, no one has explained why it's obviously a fraud. They didn't allow any foreign inspectors, but that's not really surprising anyway, is it?

But then again, the demo's are massive and the retaliation is fierce. It's NOT a free country, it's an Islamic republic.... or religious dictatorship.
Interesting to know what my Iranian colleague makes of this.
paulxx
Today was a watershed for two reasons in the unfolding revolution in Iran.

First, the masses have openly defied the supreme leader Ayatollah Khomeini not to demonstrate today. Not only did the protesters defy the bullets and batons of the hated basij, the Revolutionary (actually counter-revolutionary) Guard, but they were actually chanting "Death to Khomeini". This is unheard of in Iran before today.

Second, we are seeing the first signs of the organised working class entering the battle.

The Vahed Syndicate of Bus Drivers have stated their support for the revolutionary movement and the massive Khodro car workers are taking strike action in support of the movement. This could be the beginning of a strike wave.

The magnificent and courageous uprising of millions of Iranians is pushing the hapless Mousavi to the left. He has declared that if he is arrested he wants "his" supporters to organise a general strike. He might get his wish even if he isn't arrested!

Meanwhile the western leaders are growing increasingly nervous at the prospect of a revolutionary movement bringing down the present regime. After spending recent years declaring Iran and Ahmedinejad to be terrorists, you would expect American imperialism to be roaring its support for the opposition. Instead they are keeping strangely quiet. The best Obama could muster today was to warn the regime that the eyes of the world were on Iran. Hardly his usual eloquent self.
paulxx
Alberr, you said...

"this is not an uprising, it is certainly not a revolution, and it does not seem to have any support outside of the urban areas. Reality on the ground points to outside interests financing an attempted coup and some stupid people in Iran supporting it."


... "Not a revolution....not even an uprising" Come on Alberr! Are you kidding? What is it? Millions of people all over Iran who are just a bit miffed? Day after day after day, in fact 7 days so far, being shot dead, and still they are defying this brutal regime.

All oppressive regimes when faced with opposition from their own people, use the old "Moscow Gold" nonsensence. This is a genuine revolutionary movement by the Iranian masses who have burst onto the streets after 30 years of brutal repression. It is not being financed or organised by foreigners.

It's the duty of all socialists to support oppressed people fighting for their liberation. You've made a mistake and chosen the wrong side.
JBoyd
QUOTE(paulxx @ Jun 20 2009, 10:11 PM) *

Alberr, you said...

"this is not an uprising, it is certainly not a revolution, and it does not seem to have any support outside of the urban areas. Reality on the ground points to outside interests financing an attempted coup and some stupid people in Iran supporting it."


... "Not a revolution....not even an uprising" Come on Alberr! Are you kidding? What is it? Millions of people all over Iran who are just a bit miffed? Day after day after day, in fact 7 days so far, being shot dead, and still they are defying this brutal regime.

All oppressive regimes when faced with opposition from their own people, use the old "Moscow Gold" nonsensence. This is a genuine revolutionary movement by the Iranian masses who have burst onto the streets after 30 years of brutal repression. It is not being financed or organised by foreigners.

It's the duty of all socialists to support oppressed people fighting for their liberation. You've made a mistake and chosen the wrong side.



My sympathies would be with the protesters, however, if you think that it's a 'genuine revolutionary movement', I think you're indulging in wishful thinking.
I'd see it more as the Iranian equivalent of some of the movements that occurred in Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Union - i.e. pro-Western, 'liberal' and certainly not, in any sense, Socialist.
WoodyDee
I was thirteen and spent the summer of 1970 in Tehran. There was a decisive mix of Western culture, displayed on women in lipstick, nail polish, short skirts, exposed legs. Along side that were the Muslim right. Women in Chaders(sp), covered up. My uncle worked for the Shah and lived in a compound in the city. People would run up to him and kiss jis hand and bow. Uneasy tension. The Shah's opulent wealth, the golden egg holders, the crown jewels, the modern statues, trendy euro discoteques, along side shanty's made out of dried cow chips(dung) shaped into crude bricks...have and have nots. You'd step out of the compound and small children with no shoes would run up to you begging for money and gum. The tide was turning in 1970. Men would walk up to women and scold them in front of a crowd of people, embarrassing them for their appearance.
People would stand in the movies and they would play the Iranian anthem, before the film would start.

The mullas took the compound, my Uncle ended up on a death list. My Uncle Yousef, my Aunt Emma and my cousins had to flee Tehran just before the Hostage crisis. My Aunt went back to get her jewelry, she had to cut her nails, wear a scarf and pay off officials at the Airport to get out with her belongings.

It was a hundred years ago, it was a different century...I was coming over wearing tiedye and it was the 16thC in the hills of Iran. I will never forget it.

The people of Iran must be free. This is their chance. I still have relatives in Iran.
I don't think I'll ever go back.
Martyn
QUOTE
I think Peter O'Toole was on the piss at the time and promised the locals more than the French and British governments were prepared to give. But we did give them Israel as compensation twenty years later


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

I had all that in mind when posting earlier but couldn't get up the energy to include, elaborate or elucidate. Thanks Al!

I'm growing a little frustrated now as to who and what to believe.

The easy way of looking at it would be to have this revolution be a phony, a mere few days of violence brought on by a close election result that was lost. I was willing, based on a ton of stuff I'd read, to believe that Ahmadinejad had won, that the threat of a revolution from people fed up with the religious leadership was something being talked up by western media. Listening to the Ayatollah left me feeling that whatever they were doing in Iran probably had a more than 50% support level. His feelings toward the west were almost certainly justified, hence my last post. But now, with the violence escalating and showing little sign of abating I'm left wondering where I can look to find a truly unbiased analysis of the country and its current travails.


And the first thing I find in my search for anything resembling truth is this...

Are the Iranian Election Protests Another US Orchestrated 'Color Revolution'?

By Paul Craig Roberts

QUOTE

June 20, 2009 "
Information Clearing House" -- -A number of commentators have expressed their idealistic belief in the purity of Mousavi, Montazeri, and the westernized youth of Terhan. The CIA destabilization plan, announced two years ago (see below) has somehow not contaminated unfolding events.

The claim is made that Ahmadinejad stole the election, because the outcome was declared too soon after the polls closed for all the votes to have been counted. However, Mousavi declared his victory several hours before the polls closed. This is classic CIA destabilization designed to discredit a contrary outcome. It forces an early declaration of the vote. The longer the time interval between the preemptive declaration of victory and the announcement of the vote tally, the longer Mousavi has to create the impression that the authorities are using the time to fix the vote. It is amazing that people don't see through this trick.

As for the grand ayatollah Montazeri's charge that the election was stolen, he was the initial choice to succeed Khomeini, but lost out to the current Supreme Leader. He sees in the protests an opportunity to settle the score with Khamenei. Montazeri has the incentive to challenge the election whether or not he is being manipulated by the CIA, which has a successful history of manipulating disgruntled politicians.

There is a power struggle among the ayatollahs. Many are aligned against Ahmadinejad because he accuses them of corruption, thus playing to the Iranian countryside where Iranians believe the ayatollahs' lifestyles indicate an excess of power and money. In my opinion, Ahmadinejad's attack on the ayatollahs is opportunistic. However, it does make it odd for his American detractors to say he is a conservative reactionary lined up with the ayatollahs.

Commentators are "explaining" the Iran elections based on their own illusions, delusions, emotions, and vested interests. Whether or not the poll results predicting Ahmadinejad's win are sound, there is, so far, no evidence beyond surmise that the election was stolen. However, there are credible reports that the CIA has been working for two years to destabilize the Iranian government.

On May 23, 2007, Brian Ross and Richard Esposito reported on ABC News: "The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a covert "black" operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell ABC News."

On May 27, 2007, the London Telegraph independently reported: "Mr. Bush has signed an official document endorsing CIA plans for a propaganda and disinformation campaign intended to destabilize, and eventually topple, the theocratic rule of the mullahs."

A few days previously, the Telegraph reported on May 16, 2007, that Bush administration neocon warmonger John Bolton told the Telegraph that a US military attack on Iran would "be a 'last option' after economic sanctions and attempts to foment a popular revolution had failed."

On June 29, 2008, Seymour Hersh reported in the New Yorker: "Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country's religious leadership."

The protests in Tehran no doubt have many sincere participants. The protests also have the hallmarks of the CIA orchestrated protests in Georgia and Ukraine.
It requires total blindness not to see this.

Daniel McAdams has made some telling points. http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/027782.html For example, neoconservative Kenneth Timmerman wrote the day before the election that "there's talk of a 'green revolution' in Tehran." How would Timmerman know that unless it was an orchestrated plan? Why would there be a 'green revolution' prepared prior to the vote, especially if Mousavi and his supporters were as confident of victory as they claim? This looks like definite evidence that the US is involved in the election protests.

Timmerman goes on to write that "the National Endowment for Democracy has spent millions of dollars promoting 'color' revolutions . . . Some of that money appears to have made it into the hands of pro-Mousavi groups, who have ties to non-governmental organizations outside Iran that the National Endowment for Democracy funds." Timmerman's own neocon Foundation for Democracy is "a private, non-profit organization established in 1995 with grants from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), to promote democracy and internationally-recognized standards of human rights in Iran."


And I'm left non the wiser.

Alberr
QUOTE(paulxx @ Jun 20 2009, 10:11 PM) *


It's the duty of all socialists to support oppressed people fighting for their liberation. You've made a mistake and chosen the wrong side.


Side? What is this? A football match? I am not choosing a side, I am describing my sceptism about what the anti Iran media and politicians are promoting as a popular uprising against what they call a 'terrorist' or 'axis of evil' state. Just like they did in Eastern Europe after the Stalinist state collapsed. What you know and what I know is that before the US and its allies can destroy a country then they have to demonise it first with buckets of propaganda and that is what is happening here.

And how the fuck can anyone justify violent street protests to liberate themselves from a democratically elected government? Isn't that what fascists do?
jamesleo
Alberr: I believe you are terribly mistaken: That election is stolen The students of Iran, just like the students in US or the UK have rejected a theocracy. Akidmajan is the fascist who like Hitler promises a return to traditional values to restore normality He has the blessings of the clerics who believe this is "God's will" and that the students are fighting God as well as the state.
Iran is a complicated country with an educated technically savvy group and a outer group of provincals who cling to religion and an almost feudal way of looking at the world.
I ask you go to these sites:
www.dailykos.com
www.huffingtonpost.com

These are two of the most progressive sites in the USA. See the pictures, read the bloggs from the students then decide:
jamesleo
I post this picture thinking of the Pete Seeger Song "Which side are you on"
Alberr
QUOTE(WoodyDee @ Jun 21 2009, 04:24 AM) *

I was thirteen and spent the summer of 1970 in Tehran. There was a decisive mix of Western culture, displayed on women in lipstick, nail polish, short skirts, exposed legs. Along side that were the Muslim right. Women in Chaders(sp), covered up. My uncle worked for the Shah and lived in a compound in the city. People would run up to him and kiss jis hand and bow. Uneasy tension. The Shah's opulent wealth, the golden egg holders, the crown jewels, the modern statues, trendy euro discoteques, along side shanty's made out of dried cow chips(dung) shaped into crude bricks...have and have nots. You'd step out of the compound and small children with no shoes would run up to you begging for money and gum. The tide was turning in 1970. Men would walk up to women and scold them in front of a crowd of people, embarrassing them for their appearance.
People would stand in the movies and they would play the Iranian anthem, before the film would start.

The mullas took the compound, my Uncle ended up on a death list. My Uncle Yousef, my Aunt Emma and my cousins had to flee Tehran just before the Hostage crisis. My Aunt went back to get her jewelry, she had to cut her nails, wear a scarf and pay off officials at the Airport to get out with her belongings.

It was a hundred years ago, it was a different century...I was coming over wearing tiedye and it was the 16thC in the hills of Iran. I will never forget it.

The people of Iran must be free. This is their chance. I still have relatives in Iran.
I don't think I'll ever go back.

Hi WoodyDee,

Thank you for that. I am not Iranian or a Muslim so I try to be careful how I view Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest of the Muslim world. Most of my old friends and comrades, and me, have difficulty in seeing the world from an Iranian viewpoint. Differences in history, culture and religion are huge. I think that, if they think at all, then most people in the west view the rest of the planet as lesser societies who have yet to discover the wonders of our western Democracy.
I am sceptical, as I have said before, about the intentions of my western world in supporting discontented minorities in countries that we want to weaken for our own benefit.
Is it wrong to want to live in the 16th Century? Parts of the world are protected by Government departments to protect local cultures going back much further than the 16th Century. We have people in this country who devote time and money trying to preserve our old cultural heritage. But we stopped the Catholics from burning Protestants at the stake and vice versa so it is a modified cultaral history we are preserving.
To our western eyes much of what is normal in Iran is seen as unacceptable here, but that is Iran's business and down to the people of Iran to change what they want to change, when they want to change it. And through our democractic institutions, like the United Nations, then we will press for changes in Iran for womens rights and democratic freedoms. But the people are free to elect the government of their choice. It is so obvious that it is not a universally popular government. A sizeable majority of voters, about 35%, want a different form of government but they failed and they are impatient and some poor sods are dying because of the political ambitions of their leaders. The minority might well win an International publicity campaign in favour of their cause but at what cost to the lads and lasses on the streets who are being used as cannon fodder for the Facebook and Twitter viewers.
Please keep posting ...
Alberr
QUOTE(jamesleo @ Jun 21 2009, 01:00 PM) *

Alberr: I believe you are terribly mistaken: That election is stolen The students of Iran, just like the students in US or the UK have rejected a theocracy. Akidmajan is the fascist who like Hitler promises a return to traditional values to restore normality He has the blessings of the clerics who believe this is "God's will" and that the students are fighting God as well as the state.
Iran is a complicated country with an educated technically savvy group and a outer group of provincals who cling to religion and an almost feudal way of looking at the world.
I ask you go to these sites:
www.dailykos.com
www.huffingtonpost.com

These are two of the most progressive sites in the USA. See the pictures, read the bloggs from the students then decide:


Hi Jamesleo

Are students an electoral majority?
Aren't the 'outer group of provincials' the electoral majority?
And isn't the answer to those two questions the evidence of my sceptism that sees the claims of 'electoral fraud' as doubtful to say the least.


QUOTE
The protests in Tehran no doubt have many sincere participants. The protests also have the hallmarks of the CIA orchestrated protests in Georgia and Ukraine.
It requires total blindness not to see this.


Hi Martin

I'm left too. or so people tell me, that is when I'm not being 'mistaken' or being a fascist or whatever. But I found that piece interesting. If posh people who analyse politics and write for a living can make those sort of assumptions then perhaps the rest of us have some justification to be sceptical.
Dickie
Tend to agree with Paul (how many x’s?) on this one.
There is the potential of another revolution happening in Iran. It has been orchestrated by the middle class media savvy elite of Tehran (Posh and Becks Brigade) but the protest is spreading out and ordinary working people are also taking to streets with their own agendas. Abandon the cynicism Al and take up hope.
Also I don’t think the election was rigged (conservative rural heartland and all that) but that doesn’t make what is happening any less valid or internationally important.
Leontien
I talked to my colleague. He's very upset. He's a refugee so obviously not in favour of the current regime. He's missing friends, they were taken from their house in the middle of the night by plain clothed men and nobody knows where they are. They weren't active in the opposition, didn't attend protest meetings, anyway. The government says it's not them that are doing this, they don't know who does....
Other friends have their houses smashed. It's a nightmare.

However he thinks the opposition will not subside but continue. People are fed up.

But the situation is dangerous and he's very frustrated he can't go back and help.
itsmeBarbara
I think what is happening in Tehran is very real. The Iranians in Detroit are sure taking it seriously.
Alberr
QUOTE(Dickie @ Jun 21 2009, 08:11 PM) *

Tend to agree with Paul (how many x’s?) on this one.
There is the potential of another revolution happening in Iran. It has been orchestrated by the middle class media savvy elite of Tehran (Posh and Becks Brigade) but the protest is spreading out and ordinary working people are also taking to streets with their own agendas. Abandon the cynicism Al and take up hope.
Also I don’t think the election was rigged (conservative rural heartland and all that) but that doesn’t make what is happening any less valid or internationally important.


Hi Dickie,
Well, a little whiff of cynicism never did a Socialist any permanent damage. It eases the pain of old age and disenchantment.

Yes, it is important, such a movement against any government is important. I am not trying to belittle it in any way. But I doubt it is what it seems to some of us ...
Is it valid? I don't know, but I am sceptical, very sceptical, about the intentions and incredible cynicism of political activists who call for young kids to throw stones and petrol bombs against heavily armed state forces under the guise of a 'peaceful' demonstration.

Incidentally, were any of those opposition 'leaders' present when the demonstrators were being shot?
BBC24 keep showing film of one of them addressing the faithful in a public square. The shot is sliced in with shots of the violence which gives the impression that he is there in the thick of it. But Euronews show the same shot and state it was taken last week. It is just a small point but fuels my scepticism about the whole essence of our media reports.

My Trade Union brothers and sisters in Iran are victimised and jailed on a regular basis. They are not the only Trades Unionists in the world who want a change in government that allows Trades Unions to organise and negotiate freely. I support them in this, albeit from my armchair, by sending petitions to the Iranian government. As far as I know, they restrict themselves to the democratic use of the ballot box.

I am still very sceptical ...
jamesleo
Neda Soltan
Well folks, I am sorry to report the cause has it first international martyr.
Neda Soltan: she was brutally by snipers of the revolutionary guard. She did not have to die. Regardless of your opinions we [u]all must agree that the killing of a 18 year old is unjustified and does not speak well of the regime.In a Death Seen Around the World, a Symbol of Iranian Protests

Out of respect to the body politic here (and especially Berryl and Alberr) I have removed the picuture and replaced it with a different one. But this women was murdered by the militia. She was unarmed this was murder!
itsmeBarbara
I must say, I'm not into censorship, but having just watched a loved one die, I'm kinda resentful to get this page up to see a poor woman take her last breath. It's the most intimate moment and it's being treated like more fear porn.
Leontien
Which translates as, please remove the picture.
I second that.
JBoyd
QUOTE(itsmeBarbara @ Jun 23 2009, 02:35 AM) *

I must say, I'm not into censorship, but having just watched a loved one die, I'm kinda resentful to get this page up to see a poor woman take her last breath. It's the most intimate moment and it's being treated like more fear porn.


I agree entirely.
If we care about people enough to be angry and/or saddened by death, it shouldn't be necessary to see it actually happen to make us respond.
And it is intrusive.
Dickie
Many years ago I shared a house with a woman who worked in the library of one of the major U.K. broadcast news agencies. Part of her job was cataloguing news footage so she was regularly deeply upset and angered at work by some of the uncensored images she saw coming out of Palestine at the time.

Her view was that the reality and horror of what was happening should be shown to make people sit up and take notice of what was really happening. She argued that TV news coverage (particularly) was over sanitised (censored) and that however many times you watched a missile blowing up a building it didn't mean much when the carnage of the aftermath and the innocent dead were effectively edited out of history or became a passing comment in a reporters by-line.

I tended to go along with her argument believing what we didn't see was the important bits (i.e. the truth) at least I did until I saw the coverage of the genocide in Rwanda which physically made me sick and made me rethink what I wanted to see on the news while I was eating my tea.

Of course the image is deeply shocking and saddening in equal measure but I don't believe it is fear porn anymore than some of the images from Vietnam (see below) that have now become almost iconic but at the time were ammunition for the people who took to the streets and opposed the war.

Perhaps here on an open forum isn't the right place for this kind image to be reproduced (many of us sometimes have kids on our knees or lurking over our shoulders when we open these pages) but having said it is a lot less graphic than the images currently being shown on the BBC News website and ultimately I still think people should see the reality. One picture is worth ten thousand words.
Beryl the Peril
some of the most iconic pictures are not what they seem.

i won't buy the mirror since they front paged a hillsborough fan squashed against the mesh fence. On the other hand i agree with the power of pictures.

The world has changed a lot since Robert Capa was on the front line. Now everything that happens in the world is intantly relayed by a mass of mobile phones and CCTV.

sorry, more random thoughts than a sound opinion.
JBoyd
QUOTE(Dickie @ Jun 23 2009, 09:57 AM) *

Many years ago I shared a house with a woman who worked in the library of one of the major U.K. broadcast news agencies. Part of her job was cataloguing news footage so she was regularly deeply upset and angered at work by some of the uncensored images she saw coming out of Palestine at the time.

Her view was that the reality and horror of what was happening should be shown to make people sit up and take notice of what was really happening. She argued that TV news coverage (particularly) was over sanitised (censored) and that however many times you watched a missile blowing up a building it didn't mean much when the carnage of the aftermath and the innocent dead were effectively edited out of history or became a passing comment in a reporters by-line.

I tended to go along with her argument believing what we didn't see was the important bits (i.e. the truth) at least I did until I saw the coverage of the genocide in Rwanda which physically made me sick and made me rethink what I wanted to see on the news while I was eating my tea.

Of course the image is deeply shocking and saddening in equal measure but I don't believe it is fear porn anymore than some of the images from Vietnam (see below) that have now become almost iconic but at the time were ammunition for the people who took to the streets and opposed the war.

Perhaps here on an open forum isn't the right place for this kind image to be reproduced (many of us sometimes have kids on our knees or lurking over our shoulders when we open these pages) but having said it is a lot less graphic than the images currently being shown on the BBC News website and ultimately I still think people should see the reality. One picture is worth ten thousand words.



I can sympathise with that argument to an extent, however I think that photos and film are possibly more open to manipulation for propaganda purposes than verbal reporting.

More importantly, there is the question (which seems to me to be the critical one) of the right of the victim to privacy: it may seem a bit pedantic in these circumstances, but if an individual has already been horribly victimised, doesn't publishing footage or photos run the risk of compounding their suffering (and that of their families)? I can remember having that concern about the footage of the attacks in London and New York and some of the suicide bombings in Israel, as well as footage from Bosnia, Iraq, Rwanda and Gaza.

And also it seems to me that once an image becomes 'almost iconic' it may actually lose some of its impact; I saw a 'photoshopped' picture using the famous Tianemen Square image of the Chinese student confronting a tank, which was intended to be humorous, somewhere (I can't even remember what the superimposed image was) and that seemed to me to trivialise what actually happened a bit.
Dickie
QUOTE(Beryl the Peril @ Jun 23 2009, 12:00 PM) *
some of the most iconic pictures are not what they seem.

i won't buy the mirror since they front paged a hillsborough fan squashed against the mesh fence. On the other hand i agree with the power of pictures.
The world has changed a lot since Frank Capa was on the front line. Now everything that happens in the world is intantly relayed by a mass of mobile phones and CCTV.


Absolutely, but in terms of news media isn't that a good thing? Without mobile telephones the internet etc much information about what is happening in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan continue ad-nausea (sic) could so easily be suppressed.


J Boyd - If you are being told a lie you are being told a lie and it doesn't really matter if that lie is supported by cleverly edited or faked images or cleverly edited and thought out words. It always has and always will happen. It's just harder to get away with now that everyone is a reporter.


News coverage of Orgreave during the miners strike here was edited to show miners and other assorted pickets chucking missiles at the police and then the police charging them on horseback. They were obviously provoked by violent demonstrators…Yes? Absolutely not! I was there; the horses came before the rubble and 25 years on there is no reason for me to lie about it. History was rewritten in the editing suites of the news media!


I agree with what you are saying about iconic images and yes do question the intrusion on the victims right to privacy but more than any other recent event this poor womans death has made everyone aware of the struggle in Iran and made it harder for the Iranian Government to do such things again.
Alberr
Please remove that photo from here ... the family and friends of this poor woman are still grieving ... the people , whoever they are, whatever their relationship with her, who are cynically pandering this image over the media shoul be ashamed of their actions ... how could this image help to prove whether or not an election was fraudulent ... which is what I thought we were debating!

I am even more sceptical now, seeing the depths that these opposition leaders are going to ...
jamesleo
At this point, I am not backing down! That women died for what she beleived in! There is a reality, an inconvient ugly truth to this situaton. I beleive her followers,her beleivers now, want this picutre. in the 1960's it was those ugly pictures of lynching and water cannons that broght the ugly reality of racism and segretation in the USA to light.The world saw it and the world comdemmed it.
IN WWII, The Soviet Union was the first to liberate the Camps and their pictures were dismissed as propaganda. Now the world kows better.
[b]It doesn't matter what we believe. There is a significiant number of poeole in Iran, perhaps a majority,who believe that the election was stolen. The no longer believe in the supreme editcs of the clerics.
They are fighting a facist intollerant regime and we should support them.The fact the the CIA doesn't like Iran is irreleven to the allogerations.
As an American, I have seen my countrymen pounded with propaganda about "thsose terrorists Muslims and All Muslims are teorrorists" This politics needs to be confronted and this picutre silences them permantly!
PS Muslims died in the WTC. They are the forgotten victims.
Beryl the Peril
QUOTE(Beryl the Peril @ Jun 23 2009, 12:00 PM) *
The world has changed a lot since Robert Capa was on the front line. Now everything that happens in the world is intantly relayed by a mass of mobile phones and CCTV.


QUOTE(Dickie @ Jun 23 2009, 12:48 PM) *

Absolutely, but in terms of news media isn't that a good thing? Without mobile telephones the internet etc much information about what is happening in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan continue ad-nausea (sic) could so easily be suppressed.


It's how it is. for better or worse.

however we can be selective about what we chose to show and where we show it.

although I read every bit of news there was about the G2 demonstartions in the UK i was still sadddened to see endless photographs of Ian Tomlinson lying dead on the streets of London although without doubt if it wasn't for the mobile phone footage the police would have got away with having a part in his death.

On the other hand i have seen so many bloddied images in these times of 24 hour news reporting that i am no more or less moved by the one of the young woman in Iran than i am of the killings that are taking place daily, in my name, all over the muslim world.









oops ..edited my own quote for error! ph34r.gif
jamesleo
I have replaced the picure with ai different one



A photo of Neda Agha-Soltan from May 2009 provided by a man identifying himself to The Associated Press as Caspian Makan, her fiancé.
Roo
I'm with Dickie.
JBoyd
QUOTE(Dickie @ Jun 23 2009, 12:48 PM) *

J Boyd - If you are being told a lie you are being told a lie and it doesn't really matter if that lie is supported by cleverly edited or faked images or cleverly edited and thought out words. It always has and always will happen. It's just harder to get away with now that everyone is a reporter.


That's true except that with news media, you can make a judgement about the trustworthiness of the reporter and their bias or neutrality.

I think the main concern is for the individual subject though.
itsmeBarbara
Personally, I don't need to see this woman's death to understand what is going on in Iran. I don't come to the Billy Bragg website to be shown what we all know to be true. That is my objection to James Leo posting the original picture. Do we really need it here? I appreciate James taking it down, but I resent his posting it in the first place.

If people want to look at those images, go for it. I remember writing to Barmy Rob the night after September 11, and he had to spend the day looking at the worst of the photos. I felt sick for him.
jamesleo
Well I am sorry if I offended you Barbara but it was my understanding that many Iranians wanted it out there. I am in a different place culturally. I work with a lot of African Americans (and Caribbean Americans) who lived through the civil rights era. The lynchings, the brutal murder of Cheney, Goodman and Schwner: The images of Emit Till's body were horrible but it was necessary to wake a nation up to actually see the atrocities of racism!
The families actually wanted these images out! As they have influenced my music they have influenced my sense of truth. I am sorry for offending you and everyone else. I am not sorry for helping to expose barbarism.
itsmeBarbara
We're the same age, James. We have all seen the same images. You were not just preaching to the choir, you were yelling at it.
jamesleo
What can i say Barbara: To quote Chester Burnett "Howlin Wolf" Its my nature! BTW: How is Bob? Robin Brownfeld, Leah Tarlen (Carol's daughter) and I are all on Facebook together.
itsmeBarbara
For what it's worth, a friend has a far more graphic and disturbing photo of this poor murdered woman as her Facebook profile picture. It's sickening.
jamesleo
I think its worth a lot. These stories need to be told. What I find very disturbing are the allogerations that thee protests are being initiated and funded by the CIA These are the same conspiracy theorists who still cliam 9/11 was an inside job. I know from the Thom Hartmann site, the same people are posting the same messages.
itsmeBarbara
Get on the right wing sites and tell it then. The left is constantly telling each other the same things we all know. The right infiltrates every left wing site. Get out of here, James (not permanently on this issue) and tell people who don't know.

In the meantime, that poor woman is being exploited over and over again.
Jon
QUOTE(jamesleo @ Jun 24 2009, 02:17 PM) *

I think its worth a lot. These stories need to be told.
I agree with both of you on this, but how does using her image as an icon on a web forum count as keeping the memory alive, when any post probably contains inane mutterings about x factor?
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