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damon
Having being told that talking about this subjest was off topic, and not seeing a suitable one to cover what is a serious issue, I have started another one.
About this: On the margins.
QUOTE
On the margins

The chief constable of Cambridgeshire says she needs more resources to deal with migrant-related crime. The rightwing press are in a frenzy. But are the Latvians, Lithuanians and Portuguese more likely to be victims than perpetrators? Patrick Barkham investigates

Wednesday September 26, 2007
The Guardian



Cabbage fields are stretched taut to the horizon, and drainage ditches march across black, peaty soil. There is something stubborn and unchanging about the flat, bleak landscape of the Fens. Villages with names such as Three Holes and Tipps End straddle lumpy roads that threaten to deposit careless drivers into ditches. Hand-painted signs are propped outside bungalows: "For sale - lop-eared rabbits" and "Eggs - duck & goose".
Everything seems as it ever was in this uncompromising agricultural land. But Fenland's farms and food factories are now powered by Portuguese and, for the past few years, Latvian, Lithuanian and Polish labourers. Rural life has probably not changed this rapidly since the agricultural revolution. And in the past week, an appeal by Julie Spence, the chief constable of Cambridgeshire, for extra resources to tackle crime associated with migrant workers triggered a predictable panic in the right-wing press. "Migrant workers importing crime, says police chief," said the Daily Telegraph. "Migrant influx pushes us all to the limits," screamed the Daily Mail.

Some local people endorse this picture of a countryside ruined by foreign criminals who have imported drink-driving, knives and blood feuds along with their cheap labour. Others are more positive about the migrant workers. However, in Wisbech, the working market town known as the "capital of the Fens", everyone can agree on thing: the migrants and the long-term residents are not rubbing along happily.
"You think you're in Russia," says one local about the Sunday market on the edge of Wisbech. Around a cavernous warehouse are cars and vans with trestle tables laden with plastic toys, dusty grey plastic hi-fis, snakes of old electric cable, bikes, paving stones, cat food, toby jugs and children's clothes. Most of the stallholders are British; the language of the buyers is Lithuanian, Latvian or Polish.

It takes a few days in Wisbech for the significance of the Sunday market to sink in: it is the only obvious moment of large-scale interaction between the settled locals and the mostly eastern European migrants. One woman with little English negotiates to buy a CD player. The seller opens both hands. "Ten pounds," he says. The woman brandishes one hand back and smiles winningly. "Five pounds." It's hers for a fiver. "If it's got a plug on it, the migrant workers will buy it," says Darren Martin, 27, a Welshman who settled in the Fens after serving at nearby RAF Marham.

If the kneejerk position of the right is that immigration is uncontrolled and newcomers don't integrate, then the default setting for the metropolitan left is that rural communities are intolerant, inbred monocultures. But the Fens actually have a long history of absorbing outsiders. They may have been the last corner of England to succumb to William the Conqueror but by then they had already absorbed the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons and the Vikings. The asylum-seeking Huguenots and large numbers of Dutch settled here in the 17th century. Even after the Fens were drained and the sea pushed back, Wisbech was a sizeable - and outwardlooking - river port. Locals such as Evan Hawkins, 79, who worked in Wisbech docks for 40 years, remembers boats from Russia, Germany and Holland regularly visiting the town. The Portuguese arrived in significant numbers a decade ago. Since the accession to the EU of the Baltic states in 2004, East Anglia has attracted Lithuanians, Latvians and Poles. Two years ago, there were up to 80,000 East European migrants estimated to be working in the region.

I like to stay open minded about all this kind of change.
Jon
instead of basing every race related assumption on a holiday you took, damon, you really need to 'walk a mile in their shoes'.

take a year off and become a migrant, then come back with something other than a link to somebody else's thoughts that you want to assimilate as your own.
damon
Although it might be wise to leave it overnight, because I may not be getting the full meaning of what Jon is saying, (either tiredness from work, or a beer or two), I really can't understand what he's saying.
''Walk a mile in their shoes''?

I understand this concept, and think I have done it too. Has anyone else spent hours hanging around at the downtown LA Geryhound (bus) station?
And seen the line of Mexican agriculturial workers, lining up for busses heading for the California San Joaquin Valley? I mean, even elderly men, in white ''cowbow'' hats.
I have.

And Jon, I don't get your oppositon to raising issues that 80% of the people that I live amongst, have opinions, and talk about.
Zippy
What the hell is this about?
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 27 2007, 02:40 PM) *

Although it might be wise to leave it overnight, because I may not be getting the full meaning of what Jon is saying, (either tiredness from work, or a beer or two), I really can't understand what he's saying.
''Walk a mile in their shoes''?

I understand this concept, and think I have done it too. Has anyone else spent hours hanging around at the downtown LA Geryhound (bus) station?
And seen the line of Mexican agriculturial workers, lining up for busses heading for the California San Joaquin Valley? I mean, even elderly men, in white ''cowbow'' hats.
I have.

And Jon, I don't get your oppositon to raising issues that 80% of the people that I live amongst, have opinions, and talk about.


If you think I'm going to respond to a daily mail quote, you're sadly fucking mistaken.

And if you don't understand my first reply, then you really need to not blame tiredness and alcohol........
It's not about seeing the migrant workers and thinking they'd make a nice souvenir photo, it's about being the migrant worker and taking life from that perspective.
damon
QUOTE(Zippy @ Sep 27 2007, 03:49 PM) *

What the hell is this about?

That Zippy doesn't have a clue what this is about, tells its own story.
That you Jon seem to refute anything that might be printed in the Daily Mail, also speaks volumes.
What it says is, that because facts were mentioned in the Daily Mail (or the times or the sun and the mirror), that those stories and figures that they reported are all false.
They may have had reactionary spin put on them, (by the right wing press):
but are some parts of the ''so called called left'', not guilty of doing the same thing?

Peterborough isn't a place where you pay any attention too.
Well perhaps an idea would be to have an Anti Nazi League march througj the town, and remind 80% of the residents, that they were close to being classified as Nazi's. (The cheif constable of the county included.)

I think people like Jon are being too uptight when it come to things like this.
Whether it's in the Daily Mail, or the Morning Star; there might be something in the story.
Sarah lady
Oh good another thread for the idiot to post in and everyone else can ignore.
Zippy
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 28 2007, 11:08 AM) *

QUOTE(Zippy @ Sep 27 2007, 03:49 PM) *

What the hell is this about?

That Zippy doesn't have a clue what this is about, tells its own story.


That you needlessly start pointless threads, refer to most posters in 3rd person, and begin sentences with half-hearted and meaninglessly futile prefacing, is all pretty fucking annoying.
Jon
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Sep 28 2007, 03:02 PM) *

Oh good another thread for the idiot to post in and everyone else can ignore.


I don't know Damon's post above makes the 2 following useful points.

· View this post
· Un-ignore damon
damon
QUOTE
What the hell is this about?

Zippy it was this story that I was going on about.
Jon says:
QUOTE
If you think I'm going to respond to a daily mail quote, you're sadly fucking mistaken.
and I presume that this whole story from Peterbourgh becomes null and void, because it was in the Daily Mail (according to Jon).
QUOTE
In 2004 groups of Pakistani residents clashed with Afghan and Iraqi asylum-seekers in running street battles which saw cars and houses set alight and windows smashed.

Up to 200 youths went on the rampage and police officers from across the county were drafted in to separate the warring factions.

A Kurdish refugee had his home firebombed and Lithuanian Dainius Kigas was murdered in nearby Wisbech.

Race relations have improved since then and the new, Eastern European arrivals who are here legally are respected for their desire to work hard and earn money for their families. But their sheer number – with a further 69,000 people expected to move to the county by 2016 – creates its own problems.

Peterborough's head of police, Chief Superintendent Paul Phillipson, said: "Once you have that immense growth then every community will bring a small percentage of criminals with it.

"We are working as hard, as sharply and as efficiently as we possibly can. There's no more money to pay for more officers.

"This city is growing exponentially. If we are going to put the lid on crime then we need more money to keep up with that growth."

Obviously just Daily Mail wank. But did these events not happen? I live and work amongst people who read the sun and the Daily Mail. (I know: how terrible sad.gif )
Outside of the fantasy world of ''Start your own revolution and cut out the middle man'' (dancing in the isles like Sarah lady) version of politics, the places we live in are far from ideal.

But I'm out of time now here in the library.
nevski
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 29 2007, 01:11 PM) *



But I'm out of time now here in the library.




THERE IS A GOD.
JBoyd
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 29 2007, 01:11 PM) *

QUOTE
In 2004 groups of Pakistani residents clashed with Afghan and Iraqi asylum-seekers in running street battles which saw cars and houses set alight and windows smashed.

Up to 200 youths went on the rampage and police officers from across the county were drafted in to separate the warring factions.

A Kurdish refugee had his home firebombed and Lithuanian Dainius Kigas was murdered in nearby Wisbech.

Race relations have improved since then and the new, Eastern European arrivals who are here legally are respected for their desire to work hard and earn money for their families. But their sheer number – with a further 69,000 people expected to move to the county by 2016 – creates its own problems.

Peterborough's head of police, Chief Superintendent Paul Phillipson, said: "Once you have that immense growth then every community will bring a small percentage of criminals with it.

"We are working as hard, as sharply and as efficiently as we possibly can. There's no more money to pay for more officers.

"This city is growing exponentially. If we are going to put the lid on crime then we need more money to keep up with that growth."

Obviously just Daily Mail wank. But did these events not happen? I live and work amongst people who read the sun and the Daily Mail. (I know: how terrible sad.gif )
Outside of the fantasy world of ''Start your own revolution and cut out the middle man'' (dancing in the isles like Sarah lady) version of politics, the places we live in are far from ideal.

But I'm out of time now here in the library.


Damon, of course you can find examples of tension between ethnic minority groups; the problem is that they can be used to excuse racism by White British people. And actually, given the extent of the diversity in many British towns and cities, the surprising (and encouraging) thing is that they have been relatively few and far between.
Senior police officers are not, in my view "playing the race card"; what they (and some other public sector managers) are doing is making a case for more funding. It is a bit risky, but I think it's inevitable: the costs of providing interpreters for housing, education and social services departments in some communities has increased exponentially and there has been no new central government money to support Local Authorities.
The really shocking story from places like East Anglia is actually the appalling wages that are paid to agricultural workers for jobs that are as physically arduous (if not as dangerous) as coal mining. Such is our desire for cheap food that people in those areas are paid an absolute pittance, usually on a casual, piecework basis.
And of course, that in turn exacerbates tensions between communities, because the arrival of migrant workers can appear to keep wages down.
damon
QUOTE(Zippy @ Sep 28 2007, 03:15 PM) *

That you needlessly start pointless threads, refer to most posters in 3rd person, and begin sentences with half-hearted and meaninglessly futile prefacing, is all pretty fucking annoying.

I thought it was quite an interesting subject for a thread myself. One not really covered already by an exsisting one.
I think the replys to this story, (and on another thread, where matt w and nevski seem to be saying that the police, the fuzz are much like they have always been - still with the same backward attitudes of the 1970's) have been quite illuminating.

The Cambridgeshire Police, who I'm sure are actually very tuned in to the diversity in the community kind of ideas, were more or less being called racist towards new arrivals to the county. The police cheif was aring her concerns about the difficulties of having a new kind of community spring up so quickly. Which was leaving them struggling to catch up.
That these migrant workers might be driving (overseas) vehicles that the police can't trace, and be living in accomodation where there is a change of occupants at regular intivals, as people came into the county sometimes just for a short while, and the need to have translators and train up police from those communities, I think it is pretty reasonable.
You might not like the way newspapers write about it - like here in the Daily Telegraph, but it's not so far wide of the mark, (to things that are changing in places like Cambridgeshire).

And JBoyd: I agree with every word you said in that last post.
Zippy
QUOTE(damon @ Oct 2 2007, 09:27 AM) *

I think the replys to this story [...] have been quite illuminating.


There has only been one reply to the story. You must be commenting, in part, on you own commentary. Quite illuminating indeed.
geoff
I thought he was alleging that by not replying we were somehow not interested in what he had to say. Quite, as you say, illuminating.
damon
QUOTE(Jon @ Sep 27 2007, 02:18 PM) *

instead of basing every race related assumption on a holiday you took, damon, you really need to 'walk a mile in their shoes'.

take a year off and become a migrant, then come back with something other than a link to somebody else's thoughts that you want to assimilate as your own.

I've been a migrant, spending a year doing menial work in two large hotels in Germany, and then spending time working as a builders labourer in Berlin (and sometimes getting swindled out of pay by dodgy contractors). In the hotels, it was the workers from Africa Poland Romania and Vietnam that I got on with best.

I've also picked fruit along side Tongan and Samoan migrants in New Zealand, toiled in tomato fields in Queensland, and worked with a couple Mexican illegal immigrants in Seattle. (Nice guys they were. They used to pick me up in their battered old car in the mornings, and we'd drive out to the job, laying paving.)
Then in the evening we'd get a six pack of bud, and have a couple each as we drove back into Seattle. Keeping an eye out for police, as not even the passengers in a car can have an open container).

I say they were probably illegal, because they like me, got hired off the by street the contractor at an well known spot for hiring labour,(up near a homless charity called The Millionaires Club.)
damon
I think the kind of respose to this thread, (which includes the other threads started, to send it, and me up), is that the natural reaction of many forum members, is to go in to negative mode when challenged, and they have nothing much to say
When you are part of what Neil Davenport (of Spiked) called official ant-racism, that's all you can really come up with. It's so well ingrained that it becomes the natural (only) response.

That having a transient population with a multitude of different languages and needs, coming into a rural county can bring particular problems with it. Like was reported in this Times article last week.
QUOTE
September 28, 2007

Crime gangs 'expand sex slavery into shires'
Immigration from Eastern Europe has brought a supply of women deceived into thinking good jobs await them. Instead they are sold to vice gangs for £500 and forced into prostitution. An investigation by The Times has found that one rural force has identified 80 brothels this year.

QUOTE
What is less expected is that the brothel where she was kept as a sex slave is not in London, Birmingham or one of the metropolitan centres. This brothel was in the cathedral city of Peterborough and is one of 80 that have been raided by Cambridgeshire police this year.

Senior officers have been staggered by the discovery of off-street brothels – “sex prisons” in the words of one detective – in towns such as Wisbech, March, Huntingdon and Cambridge. They believe there are many more operating across the county.

Cambridgeshire is not alone. Around the country police forces are realising that human trafficking, a hugely profitable business run by organised criminal gangs, is no longer a big city problem.

In towns as seemingly unlikely as Cheltenham and Leamington Spa, police have moved to shut down brothels. “If you can find it Cheltenham, you can find it anywhere,” said Tim Brain, Chief Constable of Gloucestershire and a national police spokesman on the issue. “I’m expecting we will uncover a lot more.”

Dr Brain said that the key to defeating the traffickers was to deprive them of the huge profits they were making from the trade in human beings.

It's very easy to send someone up and suggest that I'm blaming new arrivals for all this. I'm not. If you research this issue you will read reports that British criminals are forging links with Eastern Eoropean ones, and that it's the hard working people living on the margins of society that are their main victims. Dealing with victims of crime took three times longer if they didn't speak english. That's not prejudice, that's showing concern, as newcomers were often not getting propper justice, for being victims of crime and exploitation.

But it was this way the story was first aired, that seem to annoy matt w and others.
QUOTE
The increase in sex trafficking appears to have gone hand-in-hand with the surge in immigration in East Anglia that led Cambridgeshire’s Chief Constable, Julie Spence, to demand more money to police a rapidly increasing population. Last week Mrs Spence said that ministers were not taking account of the effect that a rise in immigration was having on policing. She said Cambridgeshire had become a staging post for immigrants, partly because farm work was readily available.

Mrs Spence said the effect of immigration growth seeped into all areas of policing. Foreigners got into difficulties because they were unfamiliar with traffic laws; investigations into crime could involve trips abroad to interview relatives; police had also noticed a growth in prostitution, driven by the influx of large numbers of single men. She said bills for interpreters employed to help police to process suspects and question witnesses had shot up.

You can't say that Chief Constable Spence!!!
damon
Oh what fun we had. On the bargins and on the Martains (or what ever they were).

I missed this article by Mary Riddell in the Observer last month, where she asked of Julie Spence ''What about a welcome amid the warnings, chief constable.''
I would largly go along with her sentiment. She focus's on the hard work done by our new migrants in places like Cambridgeshire, and about the exploitation that the new people face, rather than some of the extra issues the police face.

She finishes by saying:
QUOTE
Immigration has been one of Britain's great triumphs. But, for no good reason, the welcome mat wears dangerously thin. The myth of the feckless welfare sponger is countered by the stream of would-be Britons paying, on top of their taxes, £34 a go to sit (or resit) their settlement exam and £80 for a citizenship ceremony.

The spirit of Britishness Gordon Brown wants to formalise can only be distilled from the raw materials on offer, whether they be warmth, cohesion or a gang of Fenland youths slamming a Polish man's head into a shop wall. Intolerance wreaks far more damage on Britain than any minor inconvenience posed by incomers. There is no immigration scandal, nor any doomsday scenario of over-population. Bogus fears are incubating a greater crisis. We are witnessing the brutalisation of Britain and the severance of human bonds.

Again, I like what she says, and where she is coming from.

But is this line strictly accurate?
QUOTE
There is no immigration scandal, nor any doomsday scenario of over-population.

I don't care who or how many people come to live in Britain, but we have to build the infrastructure to cope.
Like millions of houses are needed right now.

I wonder if Mary Riddell spoilt her fine, heart felt article right at the end there.
By denying a problem of over population could take place.
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Oct 31 2007, 11:16 AM) *

I don't care who or how many people come to live in Britain, but we have to build the infrastructure to cope.
Like millions of houses are needed right now.
Migrant figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) indicate that some 385,000 people left the UK for the long term in the year to mid-2006.
QUOTE

Many of those leaving were "long-term migrants" and not British citizens.

Long-term migration into the UK, meanwhile, was 574,000. The figures show the UK population grew to 60,587,000 - an increase of 349,000.

How come the media debates on migration generaly centre on the folks coming in, and not the folks leaving (for good, not on working holidays)?

As for needing Millions Of Houses, that's probably true but it doesn't stem purely from migration.
In the late 80's / early 90's, the Tory party sold thousands of Council Housing under the Right To Buy scheme and local councils sat on the money and never reinvested in 'replacement' housing.
barmyrob
QUOTE(Jon @ Oct 31 2007, 11:38 AM) *

In the late 80's / early 90's, the Tory party sold thousands of Council Housing under the Right To Buy scheme and local councils sat on the money and never reinvested in 'replacement' housing.


They weren't allowed to!
Jon
True, but I think they're still not 'allowed to', even if they could.

edited to add.

I read somewhere that Bristol CC doesn't even have the cash they raised, and wouldn't you want to know why?
damon
Wasn't it agreed (more or less) last week, that the UK's population was set to rise by millions in the coming decades. Forget about the politics, a combination of people living longer, and new people coming to the country, were going to push up the numbers largly in the way that the often villified Migration Watch had been saying. Also, the birthrate in the UK would be pushed up by the demographic of the new migrants.
An unusually large proportion of them will be women in their prime child bearing years.

Who cares? - not me, but lets just be honest about things. That so many people leave the country, to be replaced by even more, can have an unsettling effect. It means that there are constantly shifting populations, with young people (for example from eastern Europe) moving from factory work in Slough, to doing some field work in The Fens, back down to London for a while, before heading home, to be replaced by more new people.

There's nothing wrong with that, and I have lived that lifestyle myself when on backpacking trips to Australia and New Zealand.
But let's admit, it does make the police's job harder.
Someone living in an overcrowded house or hostel, goes to the police and complains that while they were all at work, they have had their possesions stolen, and one of the guys who had just moved in has dissapeared.

Gone where? don't know. What are the police to do? Oh, he had talked about going to Swindon. He drives a blue VW, with Polish number plates.
I guess the police just have to file it as unsolvable.

And as for the council houses being sold off, those houses still exist. People still live in them.
It's not like they were knocked down.
Roo
Yeah, because transients and overcrowded houses and hostels are such new developments in the UK.
damon
It's a bit of a merry-go-round this, isn't it. There also seems to be defensiveness deployed against some of the points I have raised, like what ever I said should be denied or countered. (like the story of the Avon firefighters and the gay men on the downs story).

My point in writing about this stuff isn't about migrants or numbers particularly, but like the Talk Sport radio thread I started, about how the left deal with issues raised by the populist right. And asking the question ''Can the populist right, sometimes have a reasonable point?'' And seeing how the left deals with some of the detail that get thrown up in the non liberal left media.

So Roo has given her opinion to this kind of story. I suppose it's just all so tedious to read a story in Murdoch's Times, and bother with these mean spirited little claims.
Because we had transient populations of migrants for hundreds of years rolleyes.gif .
Irish Navvies built the canals and the railways, so what's new?
QUOTE
Cramped housing conditions with high fire risks have become one of the key concerns of councils with growing immigrant populations, according to today’s surveys.

The report argues that many landlords are exploiting new migrant communities by allowing them to live in dangerously crowded homes in a state of disrepair.

In other cases these workers are living in cramped accommodation provided by their employers but sometimes they are subletting their own rooms to gain extra cash. Fire services are frequently being called out to multiple-occupany houses where families are crammed into one or two rooms with poor facilities.

“Many of the properties lack fire precautions and adequate facilities for washing and drying clothes,” Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service is reported as saying. “Fires have been caused by drying clothes in front of gas fires that have been left unattended, smoking, alcohol and arson committed by people who have negative attitudes towards new migrants,” said the report.

But these complaints take the biscuit.
QUOTE
In Hull and East Riding, local people have complained that Polish workers are monopolising computers at the local library and failing to use refuse collections properly. Residents are also concerned that in the longer term migrant workers may do better economically than local employees.

I can well belive the thing about the library computors - it's like that in Croydon central library. But it's hardly a big issue.
The refuse thing too. When I lived in a staff house owned by the hotel I worked in Munich some years ago, us auslanderen used to get complaints from the personalbeuro that they were getting complaints from the other tennants, that we didn't sort our rubbish out properly, and put it in the correct bins.
We didn't do that where we came from - (the UK, eastern Europe).
We were also said to be too loud and noisy (as we liked to party a bit).
Roo
Damon, I'm just not going to get sucked into your endless little game of convenient, deliberate spin and misunderstanding and feigned (I do hope you *are* feigning it) obtuseness regarding what people post on here.

Have fun. rolleyes.gif
damon
This reply from Roo gives no account of what she was doing while offline for ten months.
Sorry if it was something personal that kept you away - but I probably made a couple of hundred of political posts in that time, and have no idea if you were reading them - to make your recent opinions well formed ones, or, just like those snipes that sarah lady makes, because she has a different mentality than me.
(And feels that as head girl, she can dictate what goes on on the forum.)

Remember Roo, this was declared a forum for like minded people.
It doesn't mean that's something to be proud of.
The Daily Mail is a newspaper for like minded people. (And it sucks).

East Coast yuppies mocking George Bush is not necessarly sophisticated politics.
Sniggering at Jon Stewart's Daily Show is so easy.
barmyrob
Roo

Read one of Damon's posts and you've read them all...

rolleyes.gif
Roo
Exactly.

And I *love* that he just brilliantly illustrated my point for me.

Again. laugh.gif
Zippy
QUOTE(damon @ Nov 1 2007, 04:52 PM) *

East Coast yuppies mocking George Bush is not necessarly sophisticated politics.
Sniggering at Jon Stewart's Daily Show is so easy.


Taking disjointed and non sequitur potshots at people then bitchin' 'bout the backlash is as easy as it is stupid.
damon
I wouldn't call it bitching. I have learned a lot about the ''left'' on this forum.
And as it's a forum for like minded people as I was told one (or twice even), I'm not surprised to find I'm in a minority (of about one biggrin.gif ).
I was surprised just how hard people would resist engaging with ideas like this though.

You'd have thought that someone might have said ''OK, let's give the guy a break and read a few of his link articles that he's been banging on about for the last 18 months.''

I understand why not though. Zippy (for one) just would get them. As some of them would be attacking him personaly.
Like this one.
pink shay
oh dear! i've been spiked biggrin.gif It was all over v quickly though.
damon
Not your thing pink shay? Oh well.

Now this story definately belongs in this thread. These Roma people must be the most marginalised in Europe.
QUOTE
Italy set to deport 5,000 Romanians after murder

Saturday November 03 2007

Italy began rounding up thousands of Romanian immigrants for deportation yesterday after passing a new "public order and security" law.

Masgras Neculai (30), a petty thief, was named as the first Romanian who would be expelled under the new law, which allows anyone who is considered "dangerous" to society to be sent home.

The law was rushed through the Italian cabinet on Wednesday after huge public outcry following the savage murder of Giovanna Reggiani, a 47-year-old Italian woman, allegedly by a Romanian man.

The decree was officially published yesterday and came into force immediately. Police began combing immigrant ghettos and arresting Romanians without permits.

Government ministers have vowed to return 5,000 Romanians to their home country in the next few weeks.

The move appeared to have the blessing of the European Union. Franco Frattini, the European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security, said: "What has to be done is simple. Go into a nomad camp in Rome for example, and ask them: 'Can you tell me where you live?'

"If they say they do not know, take them and send them home to Romania. That is how the European directive works. It is simple and safe. Romania cannot say they will not take them back, because it is an obligation that is part of being a member state of the EU.''

He also urged Italy to pull down the camps to prevent any Romanians from returning.

That's pretty draconian in my book. Though when I was in Rome and Naples a couple of years ago, I was really surprised at the number of people who were setting up illegal stalls and hawking stuff, right along the main shopping streets. (They didn't look italian). There are also loads of travelling salesmen (African And Chinese) who travel about the country, with sacks of stuff to sell. They will work a train, and then get off at some tiny little town (for example in Sicily), and then walk around that town, offering shopkeepers and cafe staff all kinds of tat. I presume many of them must sleep rough.

Did anyone hear of the 100 or so Roma who ended up living on a roundabout of a motorway in Dublin?
They became destitute, and lived in apalling conditions.
If you don't find that too boring a subject to read about here's a link to the story.

It remains to be seen if the fire at the packing plant in Warwickshire, which killed four firefighters at the weekend, had any connection to the fact that it was staffed by eastern Europeans, many of whoom were said to sleep inside the building. (In the past anyway).
It's the conditions that people live under, that can produce difficult (and tragic circumstances).

I lived for about six weeks in a workers hostel in Bundaberg Queensland ten years ago. It was pretty squallid. A room full of bunk beds, smelly clothes, and being driven to and from the tomato fields every day in a van. Some of the local pickers were openly hostile to the international backpackers.

A hostel in the next town, which I visited once (as some of my co-workers stayed there) was set on fire in 2000, by a disgruntled man who had been kicked out previously.
15 people died in the blaze.
The Palace Backpackers Hostel.
barmyrob
Lesson time:


Romanians

Roma
damon
I think that the pople facing deportation in Rome, are Romainian Roma.
This was the front page story in the Independent on saturday.
QUOTE
Outcasts: Italy turns on its immigrants in wake of a murder
These are the first victims of a brutal Italian crackdown on immigrants. As thousands await deportation without trial, are we entering a new era of intolerance across Europe?
By Peter Popham in Rome
Published: 03 November 2007
They sat forlornly on the banks of the Tiber yesterday while the shantytowns they had called home only hours before were demolished. Already outcasts from the mainstream of Italian life, now they have been banished from whatever impromptu shelter they had found. And the city rejoiced at their misfortune.

Three small kittens and a hungry-looking mongrel are the last remaining inhabitants of the Roma squatter camp on the northern outskirts of Rome. The camp is yards from Tor di Quinto station on a commuter line from central Rome, but, screened by trees and creepers and huddled in a narrow gully, it is invisible until you part the creeper and step inside. Then you find the first of a line of flimsy huts, put together from scrap wood and fabric and cardboard but neat and cared-for. Inside some of them have rugs on the floor, tiny gas cooking stoves, dressers with ornaments, a double bed, a broken down chair; outside is a mouldy old sofa, a moth-eaten beach umbrella shading an old coffee table: la dolce vita for Italy's poorest and most marginal residents.

The camp is empty because on Wednesday a naval captain's wife, Giovanna Reggiani, 47, returning home from a shopping trip to central Rome, was attacked and robbed near here, and dumped in the gully. Last night she died in hospital. It was a vicious crime, and fed into a mounting national mood of anger and exasperation about immigration. Suddenly Italy's political system, normally so sluggish, sprang into life.

Within hours Italy was doing what millions of people around Europe – whipped up by populist politicians and a xenophobic media – would like to see their own governments doing: taking quick, dramatic and draconian action to teach the immigrants a lesson they won't forget.

A rotten thing for the Italians to be doing in my opinion.
And the Irish too. But let us not pretend that the eastern european Roma are easily intergrated into a new society like Ireland.
I was living in Dublin after many Roma had come over as asylum seekers about 8 years ago. As I was driving about doing deliveries, you couldn't help but notice them popping up in the most unlikely places. Like a big traffic junction way out in the industrial western end of Dublin.
They had found a favourable traffic light junction to work, and they worked it in family groups.
Some sold the big issue to the stopped cars, some did the windscrene washing, and the young women pushed their babies up to the car windows asking for money for food.
As asylum seekers going through the process, they were housed and fed, but it's perfectly understandable that even when they knew their applications had failed, and deportation loomed, there was still some time to make some money to bring home.

One Irish man man rang up a radio phone in programme one day, and said that he ran an ''Irish'' pub in Bucharest, and was just back in Ireland visiting. He said he often had Roma people coming into his pub with big wads of Irish money asking him did he want to buy some Irish money at a good rate.
I thought that was funny.

Now some people might be getting ready to give it the ''racist'' thing, but it's how it was. I think most of them in the end, got deported, but now they are free to come.
damon
I missed this story in the Guardian back in June.
QUOTE

Italy tells Romania: We don't want your Roma


1,000 migrants a month arrive in Italian capital. £20-a-week wages mean few are likely to go back

Tom Kington in Rome
Tuesday June 26, 2007
The Guardian


Tourists gazing down from Rome's third-century BC Milvian bridge get a glimpse of an idyllic, tree-lined stretch of the Tiber winding its way into the heart of the city. But if they look closer, they can make out a cluster of well-hidden shacks on the river bank built by homeless Roma migrants - many from Romania, a new EU member.
Desperate families sleep under elevated roads that ring the capital, in suburban woods and even, in the case of 14 Romanians discovered by police last month, in a Roman cistern along the Appian Way.


Now, however, amid the surge in immigration - 1,000 Roma arrive from Romania every month - Italy's politicians are starting to take decisive, but controversial, action. Rome's mayor Walter Veltroni flew to Bucharest yesterday to urge the government to discourage its people from leaving in the first place. He has also announced the construction of four huge new camps in the suburbs of the Italian capital to house the arrivals.
"We need to contain the flow from Romania and part of that involves working with child welfare groups to improve conditions and convince parents to stay put," said a town hall official travelling with Mr Veltroni. The party will visit the mayors of three towns - Craiova, Calarasi and Turnu Severin - from where the majority of Rome's new arrivals hail.

There are now around 7,000 Romanian Roma in the Italian capital. "Of those only 1,500 are living in council-run facilities, the rest are in shacks or in the open," said town hall spokesman Enrico Serpieri.


Since visiting Romania and Bulgaria about six years ago, I always knew things might get difficult if large numbers of the Roma were to up sticks and move to western european countries in large numbers.
One Roma shanty town on the outskirts of Sofia (that a train I was on cruised past at 10mph) looked as bad as a place I had walked through, alongside some railway tracks in Dacca Bangladesh, (which was very bad).

This is what The Green Party said about these recent events in Rome.
Greens condem the treatment of the roma in Italy.
QUOTE
"The crime of one person cannot be visited upon a whole nationality and one group, in this case the Roma.

"The Greens, who have stood for open borders within Europe and the free movement of people in Europe must oppose all signs of xenophobia and racism and this new law in Italy shows all the symptoms of being a knee-jerk reaction to the mob.
Very commendable.

But can you belive these figures? blink.gif
From the guardian on Nov 2nd.
QUOTE
The Roman Catholic charity Caritas puts the number of Romanians in Italy at 556,000 - less than 1% of the population. Yet, according to the interior minister, 5.6% of those arrested for murder are Romanian.

From the BBC website
QUOTE
Since June last year 76 murders have been committed by Romanians.

The mayor of Rome, Walter Veltroni, says that 75% of arrests for murder, rape and robbery in his city this year can be attributed to Romanians.

Is that the Mayor of Rome stoking up bigotry? (Or on my part, for raising this story on the BB forum?)
damon
Well these children are living 'on the margins' how ever you try to spin it.

WARNING: the link at the bottom is to the Daily Mail - so don't click on it if that sort of thing offends.

It's about police raiding houses in Slough yesterday, and taking a dozen children into care.
QUOTE
Fagin-style criminal gangs from Romania are making vast amounts of money from trafficking children into Britain to work as pickpockets and beggars, it is revealed today.

This subject was being discussed on the Vanessa Feltz BBC London radio programme this morning, (which is still available on ''listen again'')

Now if you can get over the Daily Mail sensationalism, this is an unwelcome development by anyone's standards. I have been in Romania and Bulgaria and seen the poverty of the Roma people.
I expect many more to move to western Europe.
I did ask on this forum before, what people thought should be done to intergrate Roma people into wider society. And how much of their 'culture' they would have to give up, (if any).

I'd particularly be interested to hear Jon's opinion.

The Link.
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Jan 25 2008, 01:05 PM) *

Well these children are living 'on the margins' how ever you try to spin it.

Is this the same daily mail that likes to post a negative spin on immigrants?

Curious to be proven other wise, I google the story and strangely didn't find any 'mainstream' media had picked up the story - not even the BNP! The only 2 papers that have 'scored this exclusive'? The Mail & Mail On Sunday, which leads me to think that it's either a 'slightly fabricated' story, or historically accurate.

Either way they made some good points, I'm not sure I agree with them, I'll check Spiked.

Damon, I didn't spot YOUR opinion, once you've read the paper - and washed the ink off of your fingers - perhaps you'll share, yes?
damon
Maybe you were googling the wrong thing Jon. There are three pages about 'Operation Caddy' on this google search.
So your comment about the Daily Mail etc, doesn't stand up.
I think that starting this thread (to much derision) was an attempt to start a discussion about this kind of thing. Also in the 'tis just culture' thread, I attempted to talk about issues of culture in a changing society.
But it's very hard to get past very strongly defended (but rather narrow minded IMO) left wing opinions on issues like this.
I have said before, the opening up of the worlds borders, and the mass movement of people across the globe, is (for me):
1. Welcomed
2. Inevitable (and unstoppable).
3. But can throw up some difficult problems.

It's the problems and the issues that arise from it that interest me. It was also a hot topic of conversation on BBC radio five live last night. A lot of the contributions from callers to the show were very negative.
I like to hear people rebut this alarmist opinion in a way that is not dripping with PC, as that doesn't win many arguments in the everyday world.

This is a very principled and (IMO) correct stance by the Socialist Workers Party, (who I don't really care for), about the asylum seekers who are living rough in Calais, trying to get into Britain.
Personally I agree with their opinion, but you have to argue it out better than that (I would have thought), if you want to win the argument with your family, friends and work colleagues.
QUOTE
Refugees abandoned on our doorstep

Exclusive report from Calais reveals war refugees blocked by Britain

Gordon Brown’s government is complicit in the misery of tens of thousands of refugees attempting to flee the “war on terror”.

Many of these “non-people” are trapped in the French port town of Calais. They risk their lives trying to enter Britain.

Socialist Worker visited Calais and spoke to refugees. They were from Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Eritrea. We found Kurds fleeing sectarian and ethnic hatred and educated women forced out of Eritrea as the “war on terror” washed up on their shores.
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Jan 26 2008, 10:08 AM) *

It's the problems and the issues that arise from it that interest me.

maybe you should join the talk sport/vanessa feltz / swp / spiked forum where 'like-minded' people will engage you?
damon
Well this is certainly a case of 'on the margins'.
Oh, it's just some Spiked woman (Nathalie Rothschild) talking to the author of a book called 'Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry'
I was wondering how some Billy Bragg forum members would think of a book (or interview) like that.
And then I thought that since hardly anybody would read it, not much. biggrin.gif

It starts off like this: ''Controversial author Laura María Agustín tells spiked that those dedicated to combating the sex industry have criminalised migrant workers''.
Hmmm, I don't reckon pink shay is going to like that.
It then says this:
QUOTE
Laura María Agustín’s provocative new book, Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry, really does what it says on the back cover: ‘[It] explodes several myths: that selling sex is completely different from any other kind of work, that migrants who sell sex are passive victims, and that the multitude of people out to save them are without self-interest.’

Agustín warns that ‘what we say about any given subject is always constructed, and there are only partial truths’. But you can disregard the book’s many postmodern caveats: this is an honest, complex and certainly convincing read. Agustín knows what she’s talking about – she has researched and worked with people who sell sex for over 10 years, including in Latin America and the Caribbean.

It is precisely the fact that Agustín has complicated the ‘discourse’ around trafficking, migration and sex work that seems to get the backs up of those who volunteer and are employed in what she terms the ‘rescue industry’.

Anyway, as usual, I found this way of looking at an issue, kind of interesting.
The rest of the article is here.

And Jon: it's obviously not one for you.
pink shay
QUOTE(damon @ May 19 2008, 07:10 PM) *

It starts off like this: ''Controversial author Laura María Agustín tells spiked that those dedicated to combating the sex industry have criminalised migrant workers''.
Hmmm, I don't reckon pink shay is going to like that.


?
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ May 19 2008, 07:10 PM) *

Well this is certainly a case of 'on the margins'.
Oh, it's just some Spiked woman (Nathalie Rothschild) talking to the author of a book called 'Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry'
I was wondering how some Billy Bragg forum members would think of a book (or interview) like that.
And then I thought that since hardly anybody would read it, not much. biggrin.gif

And Jon: it's obviously not one for you.


?
pink shay
you too Jon? biggrin.gif

Danion I absoloutley don't understand.

I have no problems with the sex industry providing the women working in it do through their own choice. I don't think it should be legalised as the pimps would then be the government. They could then also enforce legislation such as enforced health checks - which I also don't agree with. I also don't think that sex workers should be criminalized.

Slightly off topic but I fucking hate the way you keep posting Geoffs pm mad.gif I also hate the way you get so pissy and judgemental when people don't read your links. You've said somewhere on here that you would rather work out the best arguments and opinions of people than be active. If you were an author, a philospher, a journalist or someone who's opinions were used for the betterment of society I could kind of understand your reluctance to be active. There is a place for both active and academic people in this crazy fucked up world. You, however are neither. You are just someone who should go out and buy some porn cause you're so obviously frustrated.

Also don't fucking criticise me for not reading your links and say stuff like if I really was bothered I would read them. You have absoloutley no idea what I do.
damon
Firstly pink shay, we have a bit of a communication problem. You have said that I just sound like Ginger's owner: IPB Image

The reason I said you might not like it, is because you flagged up ''Reclaim the Night'' as something you support.
Julie Bindel is someone who speaks for them. She said this last november:
QUOTE
You can't be an armchair feminist
Reclaim the Night is 30 tomorrow. Julie Bindel, who knows all about the joys of direct action, will be there


Some of the best fun I have ever had involved standing outside sex shops, taking photographs of men entering the premises and then shouting at them when they came out. There have been other joys too, like pouring cement down the toilet of a cinema that screened nasty pornography. And then there was the time when I and a few fellow feminists spray-painted half of Yorkshire warning that rapists would be castrated.
Public protest and direct action like this is not as popular as it once was. But we may be set for a revival. The annual Reclaim the Night march, which celebrates its 30th anniversary when it takes place in London tomorrow, is enjoying a surge of interest, probably due to the horrifying UK rape statistics released recently. The organisers say they have received a flurry of calls from women keen to take part.

She also said this before the World Cup in Germany 2006.
QUOTE
As Germany's sex industry gears up for the millions of men arriving for the World Cup, fears are growing that thousands more women will be forced into prostitution. Julie Bindel investigates

With just 10 days to go until the first matches kick off, shops across Britain are heaving with World Cup merchandise: football shirts, whistles and scarves. And then there are the condoms. At 500 branches of Superdrug, there is a range of condoms tailored for England supporters. They are emblazoned with the slogan "Lie Back and Think of England" and decorated with the cross of St George.
It may seem reassuring that football supporters travelling to Germany are being encouraged to be sensible, but there is a pernicious side to the connection between the 2006 World Cup and sex. Alongside the beer tents and burger bars catering for a massive influx of fans to Germany, entrepreneurs are preparing to sell a product already openly on sale throughout Germany: women.

Germany has legalised its sex industry - Cologne opened the world's first drive-in brothel in 2001. But with three million foreign football fans about to descend on the 12 cities hosting the tournament, entrepreneurs are laying on special facilities. In Berlin, for example, a 3,000sqm mega-brothel has been built next to the main World Cup venue. It is designed to take as many as 650 customers at any one time. Wooden "performance boxes" resembling toilets have been built, with condoms, showers and parking all laid on.

Will they get as much use as everyone seems to think? One man I spoke to in an internet chatroom certainly thinks so. "I will be visiting some lovely ladies between matches, certainly," says George. He tells me he is "looking forward to a bit of exotic". Sam, a chartered surveyor from Leeds, tells me he is travelling to Berlin a week before the tournament, "to get my end away".

But where are all the extra women to come from? In January, the international feminist organisation Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) launched a worldwide campaign to protest against Germany's promotion and public display of prostitution during the World Cup. The organisation is worried that an estimated 40,000 women will be "imported" into Germany from Africa, Asia and central and eastern Europe. (This figure is based on the number of women needed to fill the additional brothels being set up.)

Was that article alarmist? Did what she say was going to happen, actually happen?
''40,000 women 'imported' into Germany from Africa, Asia, and central and eastern Europe''??

It could be a debating point I suppose.
'My cult' questioned Bindel's figures and where she was coming from. They said this:
QUOTE
Trafficking in dubious horror stories
Meet the unholy alliance of Bushies, Christians and feminists trying to convince us that World Cup 2006 is a cesspit of trafficked women and sex-slavery.


World Cup 2006 in Germany has united European left-wingers, feminists, police officers, Christians, the American right and US President George W Bush. But it is not football that has brought these diverse forces together. It is the issue of trafficking and forced prostitution, and a belief that the World Cup tournament is packed with male fans looking to have sex with one of the 40,000 ‘sex slaves’ reportedly trafficked into Germany.

Even before the tournament started we were being fed almost daily reports and horror stories about how the event would be tarnished by drunken fans using and abusing enslaved women. Both the left and right, Christians and feminists, joined forces to argue that Germany would become the temporary home to hordes of uncivilised football fans and victimised women from Eastern Europe.

Nothing better captures today’s anti-humanist outlook than this degraded view of the World Cup. Here we have a tournament which millions of people around the world are enjoying, and all that various politicians, police authorities, religious groups and feminist campaigners can see, often on the basis of unsubstantiated or inflated figures, is an opportunity for degradation and abuse on a massive scale. We should show these scaremongers the red card.

But of course, that might all just come across as ''blah blah blah''.

And while you're here pink shay, I think that my posting geoff's PM is far less out of order than him calling me a racist but not giving reason.
If he had called you a racist, would you be OK about that??
I don't think I get pissy - it feels like something else to me, (but I am kind of judgemental - isn't everyone?)
I don't think I have criticised you for not reading my links pink shay. Again, it would have been something else.

As for what constitutes political action (worthy of being called progressive) ........... there is the $64,000 question.
From what I have read of her, Julie Bindel leaves a lot to be desired in that department.
pink shay
Damion go and get some porn. It'll do you good !


I have already said I posted the link because I was sick at you posting alarmist sensationalist links concerning violence of and abuse against women in other countries when so much of it still happens here. Just because we legislate against it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just happens behind closed doors.
nevski
damon gets offended when you suggest he needs a good wank.

at one point he suggested i was gaying him up for suggesting it.

watch out Shay, you're practically begging for it wink.gif
geoff
QUOTE(pink shay @ May 20 2008, 05:06 AM) *
Slightly off topic but I fucking hate the way you keep posting Geoffs pm mad.gif
I am past caring Shay. I was pissed off when he did it but the fact he keeps reposting it is just a good indicator of the kind of person he is. And every time I read some of it in another new thread, I get an affirmation that my instincts were correct. So frankly, he can keep on reposting it as long as he likes.
QUOTE(pink shay @ May 20 2008, 05:06 AM) *
I also hate the way you get so pissy and judgemental when people don't read your links. You've said somewhere on here that you would rather work out the best arguments and opinions of people than be active. If you were an author, a philospher, a journalist or someone who's opinions were used for the betterment of society I could kind of understand your reluctance to be active. There is a place for both active and academic people in this crazy fucked up world. You, however are neither. You are just someone who should go out and buy some porn cause you're so obviously frustrated.
Well said.
damon
pink shay, you don't half talk some shite. You bash around like a bull in a china shop. Do you think that by posting like Sarah lady (when she's in a bad mood) it produces an atmosphere where opinion can be discussed? (I dont).

The thing is, your argument in you last post is poor, and your reference to porn is just plain insulting.
Sexist even rolleyes.gif

You brought up ''Reclaim the Night'' - so I presumed you supported its politics. Julie Bindel speaks for them.
I showed some examples of Julie Bindel's writing. So why come across with a pissed off tone?

As for your line that you were sick of me posting ''alarmist sensationalist links concerning violence of and abuse against women in other countries'' - that is such a cop out, and again, a diversion.

Why shouldn't I bring up what Julie Bindel said about the World Cup? Because it was in Germany??

Bringing up the case of Du'a Khalil Aswad is sensationalist is it? It was mentioned before in the No Sweat thread: (or actually, posted as a link to a meeting that was to discuss the case of Du'a and that of honor killings in general).
I think you use this brashness as a tactic.

Likening the situation of honor killings in northen Iraq (running at 600 a year) to domestic violence in Britain is wrong. In Britain (as you say) it happens behind closed doors and is nearly always the work of one man, who has no support from anyone.
In Iraq, it can be the work of a whole family, with connivance from the wider society around them.
I'm just stating a fact, but you want to get pissy about it.
Not good.

And can I just make it clear: I don't get annoyed that people don't read my links.
I don't expect it of (hardly) anyone.
I know they are all ''tedious'' (like one forum member said over a year ago), and just ''blah blah blah''.

Whatever they may be. biggrin.gif
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ May 21 2008, 03:26 PM) *

pink shay, you don't half talk some shite. You bash around like a bull in a china shop. Do you think that by posting like Sarah lady (when she's in a bad mood) it produces an atmosphere where opinion can be discussed? (I dont).

The thing is, your argument in you last post is poor, and your reference to porn is just plain insulting.
Sexist even rolleyes.gif

You brought up ''Reclaim the Night'' - so I presumed you supported its politics. Julie Bindel speaks for them.
I showed some examples of Julie Bindel's writing. So why come across with a pissed off tone?

As for your line that you were sick of me posting ''alarmist sensationalist links concerning violence of and abuse against women in other countries'' - that is such a cop out, and again, a diversion.

Why shouldn't I bring up what Julie Bindel said about the World Cup? Because it was in Germany??

Bringing up the case of Du'a Khalil Aswad is sensationalist is it? It was mentioned before in the No Sweat thread: (or actually, posted as a link to a meeting that was to discuss the case of Du'a and that of honor killings in general).
I think you use this brashness as a tactic.

Likening the situation of honor killings in northen Iraq (running at 600 a year) to domestic violence in Britain is wrong. In Britain (as you say) it happens behind closed doors and is nearly always the work of one man, who has no support from anyone.
In Iraq, it can be the work of a whole family, with connivance from the wider society around them.
I'm just stating a fact, but you want to get pissy about it.
Not good.

And can I just make it clear: I don't get annoyed that people don't read my links.
I don't expect it of (hardly) anyone.
I know they are all ''tedious'' (like one forum member said over a year ago), and just ''blah blah blah''.

Whatever they may be. biggrin.gif

Pure Class! wacko.gif
geoff
No reply needed.
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