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damon
While this may be greeted by another *no no no no* kind of reception, I thought that the multi ethnic London thread was getting off topic, when talking about stuff like this.
QUOTE
Toward a Usable Black History
John H. McWhorter

You brought me here in CHAINS! You brought me here in CHAINS!" James Baldwin exclaimed to a white interviewer in the late 1960s, summing up the sense of our history that most blacks have. Yes, we pay lip service to our having "survived" in this country, but the image most resonant to us is being brought here packed in ships, treated like animals for 250 years, and pushed to the margins of society for the next 100. Many black thinkers downplay even the "survival," depicting modern black America as a variation on slavery and dismissing the progress we've made since the 1960s by condemning successful blacks as "house niggers." The result: for most of us, "black history" summons images of endless degradation—slavery, the quick demise of Reconstruction, Plessy v. Ferguson, the Klan, lynchings, the beatings of civil rights activists, Dred Scott, Emmett Till.

Not to attend to such things would be folly; but a history only of horrors cannot inspire. What could be more demoralizing than Mba Mbulu's Ten Lessons: An Introduction to Black History, for example, a chronicle mostly of slavery and segregation, with "White People's Attacks on Other People" and "Back in Our Place" as typical chapter titles? Except for a little dollop of blacks' contributions to what is called "White History," the overall message is a grim saga of victimization. This kind of history is deeply damaging to blacks. When "Learn your history" means "Don't get fooled by superficial changes," today's New York City Street Crimes Unit can't be distinguished from yesterday's Bull Connor, and our aggrieved despair over our sense of disinclusion from the national fabric remains as sharp as ever. Could any people find inner peace when taught to think of their own society as their enemy?

Our question, then, is whether black history offers us lessons beyond teaching us that we are eternally strangers in our own land. This is a momentous question: we can only feel a visceral sense of legitimacy on our own soil when black identity is not founded on a sense of whites as the enemy without—when we feel American first and black second, which is far from the case today. Today's diversity fans will object that this goal smacks of the erasure of a culture. And in a way, they are correct: once wariness between groups disappears, people marry across ethnic lines and create a new hybrid people. History records no exceptions; love knows no bounds.

In real life, the "salad bowl" metaphor that diversity fans use to describe our proper relation to American life can only describe a temporary stage and shouldn't be our ultimate goal. To be sure, many blacks, and many white fellow travelers, see the competing "melting pot" metaphor as threatening. But since only assimilation will give black Americans a sense of America as a homeland rather than a place of temporary residence, a truly useful black history must teach black Americans that the melting pot is possible and desirable. Yes, residual racism persists in America and must be identified and expunged. But a black history whose main message is "Watch out!" sows cynicism and parochialism and can only point us backward. The history blacks learn must prepare us to take advantage of the ever richer opportunities available to us rather than to resist them as selling out to the Man.

Yet we were indeed brought here in chains. Is there anything in our deeply troubled story in America to give us the courage to get past this and embrace becoming, to the depths of our being, American?

We'll never do it by one popular approach black historians have taken. The sense that what has happened to us in this country is too demoralizing to focus on has led them to parse our time here as a gloomy second act, after a glorious and untainted first act in Mother Africa.

I posted a couple of youtubes recently.
In this one Malcom X was asking ''Who are You?''
And in this one Stokely carmichael was saying that: ''We Need a Black United Front.''

Given the era, I think this kind of politics was justified. But I think that people like McW should (at least) be regarded as having some legitimacy, when they take on the modern politics of race.
itsmeBarbara
Residual racism exists in America? That man is crazy. Residual? Sweet Jeeble.
Jon
Damon once again proves he isn't obsessed by race
LeftintheUS
My reaction was the exact same as Barb's!
damon
I would say that you have to give people a little leeway. If McW is underestimating the level of racism in America, some people overestimate it as well. If you disagree with some of his analysis that's fine. But he makes some very pertinent points I think.
From that same article above:
QUOTE
Hence Kwanzaa , for example, created in 1966 by Afrocentric scholar-activist Maulana Karenga and modeled on African harvest celebrations. It is founded on seven guiding principles with Swahili names, most stressing collectivist ideas, from unity (umoja) and collective responsibility (ujima) to cooperative economics (ujamaa). Yet after 35 years, few black Americans practice Kwanzaa; Hallmark may have released a line of Kwanzaa cards, but I would venture that 19 out of 20 blacks would draw a blank on the seven principles, and Christmas remains as central to the black experience as it was in 1966.

Let's face it: calls to found our identities upon Mother Africa are asking us to pretend to feel living kinship with people who speak languages we do not know, who neither move, dance, cook, sing, nor view the world the way we do. We are asked to adopt a "culture" that never existed: the monocultural conception of "Africa" is a post-colonial construction, essentializing the peoples of an enormous continent home to over 1,000 languages, with even Swahili spoken in only eight of the more than 50 African nations. Afrocentrists here fall prey to the American tendency to see Africa as a continent of indistinguishable "black people," but the Africans who sold one another into slavery were certainly under no illusion that "black" overrode cultural differences. For a descendant of Sierra Leoneans to learn Swahili and cherry-pick aspects of assorted African cultures is like a white American of Welsh ancestry slipping on some Dutch clogs and breaking into a Russian trépak, while exclaiming in Portuguese that, after all, "Europe is Europe."

Since most black Americans cannot know exactly what parts of Africa they trace to, perhaps pan-Africanism is the best we can do. But the artificiality remains. Culture sits in the heart; a holiday made up at someone's desk a few decades ago cannot help but sit in the head. Kwanzaa asks the black car salesman in Chicago to celebrate the first fruits of the harvest in a Ugandan village. Obviously, we—as a people so deeply American—need something beyond this.

Then there is the Afrocentric history school, founded on the idea that the ancient Egyptians were black, that the ancient Greeks stole their philosophy from Egypt, and that the Western intellectual heritage was therefore a black creation. Advocates cherish this idea as giving black students a sense of historical importance, but Afrocentric history is false, based on laughably sloppy scholarship. Mary Lefkowitz's Not Out of Africa has refuted all of its tenets, and, despite the predictable cries of racism and right-wing backlash, no Afrocentric historian has presented a factual rebuttal. The facts are simply too clear to refute.

Afrocentric history takes us away from becoming fully American in another way, too. It is difficult to feel truly a member of a society that you suspect considers you slightly dim. How realistic is it to expect to be accepted as mental equals, when blacks presenting themselves as "professors" frame our history as a mythical narrative, as if we were preliterate hunter-gatherers? And especially when the narrative is a tissue of fabrications anyway, how constructive is it to foist upon us a "history" that only heightens our sense of embattlement and alienation?

Black Americans will never again live in Africa; our connection to it will remain largely gestural. Charting that connection is valuable in itself: I have devoted much of my own academic career to doing this on the topic of Creole languages. But beyond the ceremonial and the academic, a conception of ourselves as balefully conflicted victims of a diaspora from an alien continent will serve no purpose in giving us a sense of rootedness in the only country we will ever know as home.

I listen to many discussions on the local radio in London, where people who have an Afrocentrist outlook, suggest that black Kids in England need to hear this kind of thing. More or less the same as Malcom X and Stokely Carmichael were saying in those two Youtube clips I put up.
I'm yet to be convinced that would be a good idea.

Jon, I'm white, but I think I too can take an interest in this kind of politics. I live in a place where these different opinions matter. Half the kids in my nieces school are of African origin. I think it's OK of me to take an interest in how some of their parents might think. And in the real debate that takes place within the politicized black community. Part of the reason it looks like I have this unhealthy interest in race, I think is the way that much of the forum reacted to my posts since I started.
A mixture of disagreement, ignoring, ridicule then hostility. Almost like if it was a strategy.
In the States they use this word filibuster.
I may not be using the word in its exact meaning, but I felt there was some of that on here, about my posts on this subject.
LeftintheUS
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 19 2007, 02:39 AM) *

QUOTE
Since most black Americans cannot know exactly what parts of Africa they trace to, perhaps pan-Africanism is the best we can do. But the artificiality remains. Culture sits in the heart; a holiday made up at someone's desk a few decades ago cannot help but sit in the head. Kwanzaa asks the black car salesman in Chicago to celebrate the first fruits of the harvest in a Ugandan village. Obviously, we—as a people so deeply American—need something beyond this.

I may try to address more of this post later, but I can't understand this criticism of a holiday. What makes it any more of less of celebration that it was made up a few decades ago based on ancient mythology? Is the date of when it was made up important? That is the only real difference I can see between it and any number of mid-winter celebrations. To each their own ancient mythology in my opinion...
pink shay
QUOTE
If McW is underestimating the level of racism in America, some people overestimate it as well.


Well done Damon. Spoken like a true white man!
itsmeBarbara
Damon. Damon. Damon.

I don't know how you feel about the state of the world media, but I live in the US, in what is generally agreed and accepted to be a black city, and the number of people who actually observe Kwaanza is miniscule. The air time and press inches given to the holiday are massive. It's a non issue, at the most it's something white people use to highlight their differences from black people. It's good for ratings and circulation to talk about this shit, when the real living breathing problems are being ignored every single day.

When you read the word "welfare" in the United States, they mean black.
When you hear the word "crime" in the United States, they mean black.
When you hear "illegal immigration" in the US, they mean Mexican.
If you call people on this, they get defensive and call you Al Sharpton. God bless Al Sharpton, I don't always agree with him, but the sad fact is you will never be wrong for long crying fire in the burning theater.

Racism in America is the cancer eating at our national heart. To deny it is insane. I don't expect you to reallly understand if you don't live here, but I promise you, every single day brings another outrage, another stupid defensive posturing, another noose on another fucking tree. It's killing my city, it will bring down this nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20737211/
damon
I'd actually never heard of Kwaanza when I was in the States, so for McW to raise it may have been a bit of a cheap shot. But from my reading of Britains leading black newspaper, (The Voice - they have it in the library), and listening to political discussion for the black community (on the radio), Afrocentrism has a lot of support.
Some of it sounds very positive to me, and some of it sounds divisive.

And Barbara, I know people seldom look their best in police mugshots, but those six people charged with that hate crime in West Virginia look mentally retarded.

I listen to people who have seperatist kind of views, and also think that this third part of (that much longer article) is worth taking into consideration too.
QUOTE
Why can't we get that sense from the pantheon of black heroes amply celebrated in TV documentaries or in Black History Month—upgraded from what used to be a week? The truth is that the big pictures of Harriet Tubman, Paul Laurence Dunbar, Mary McLeod Bethune, Paul Robeson, Medgar Evers, and so on that festoon urban public libraries every February, the "Great Blacks in History" calendars hanging in the typical black barbershop, and children's books like the endlessly reprinted Color Me Brown are about as inspirational to most blacks as Mount Rushmore is to most whites. We genuflect—but we do not feel.

The reasons for this are local to our moment. Because many black Americans today have drunk in a conception of racism as a perpetual obstacle rather than a surmountable inconvenience, they see black heroes less as inspirations than as exceptions to the rule. Sure, they admire Harriet Tubman; but it is a different thing to transform this formal esteem into a sense of individual empowerment, when so many modern black thinkers and leaders insist that black success is merely a matter of a few tokens let through a crack in the door. Instead of being moved by our heroes, we see them as beside the point.

Furthermore, today's sense that "real" black people define themselves against the mainstream has a way of blunting the inspiration that blacks once derived from figures like Marian Anderson and George Washington Carver, who made their mark in equaling whites in a race-neutral activity. In a black popular culture that celebrates rebellion, that enshrines as "authentic" the antisocial tendencies that early civil rights leaders deplored, it is not an accident that Malcolm X is the most beloved black figure of the past among young blacks. Within our Zeitgeist, Phillis Wheatley's ability to write classical poetry in English after having been born in Africa and taken into slavery elicits respect but not identification. After 1960s radicals lambasted Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Gwendolyn Brooks for conforming to "white" norms, any aspiring black poet was unlikely to seek inspiration from an ancestor who took her cue from the likes of Alexander Pope.

If black history in America really had been a mere matter of a few superstars rising above a vale of tears, then our past would be of little genuine use to us, and the best we could do would be to counsel spiritual fortitude. But in fact, ordinary blacks, bonding together on the communal level like all successful immigrant groups, have forged spectacular successes in America. A pernicious ideological tradition, dismissive of the power of human agency and romanticizing failure, has painted over glorious aspects of blacks' story in America with dutiful recitations of the horrors and setbacks, hoodwinking blacks into thinking that it was ever thus.

Urban black business districts will serve as Exhibit A in a new black history, an antidote to the view that between the demise of Reconstruction and the Harlem Renaissance there's little but lynching and Plessy v. Ferguson. During this very period, blacks were building thriving commercial districts of their own. Henry Louis Gates Jr. has remarked: "What really captivated me was that in the all-black world of Amos 'n' Andy . . . there was an all-black department store, owned and operated by black attendants for a black clientele." Ideally, more blacks would know that such worlds-within-a-world actually existed.

Chicago's "Bronzeville" is a handy example. As the city industrialized after 1875, blacks occupied a three-by-15-block enclave on the South Side, and the Great Migration from the South swelled the black population to 109,548 by 1920. Bronzeville, also known as "Black Metropolis," was home to several black newspapers, including the Bee, which occupied a magnificent Art Deco building, and the Defender, a publication of national influence, whose editorials urging blacks to migrate from the South were a major spur for the Great Migration itself. The literary-minded of Bronzeville also had such news magazines available to them as The Half-Century and The Light.

It was said that if you held up a horn at State and 35th, it would play itself because of the musical winds always blowing. Bronzeville was a leading center of innovation in jazz, nurturing Jelly Roll Morton, King Oliver, Louis Armstrong, and Earl "Fatha" Hines. Oscar Micheaux's film company, producing a pioneering oeuvre of "race movies," was based not in New York or Hollywood but Bronzeville.

For all the jazz and journalism, though, at the end of the day, the business of Bronzeville was business: there were 731 business establishments in 1917, in 61 different lines of work. Of several banks, the most prominent was the Binga State Bank founded in 1908, Jesse Binga having begun with a coal, oil, and gas wagon and parlayed this into realty investments. Many other Bronzeville blacks purchased real estate just as avidly, amassing holdings that totaled $100 million by 1929. Several magnificent buildings besides the one housing the Bee ornamented Bronzeville, including the Overton Hygienic—which contained a cosmetics firm, a life-insurance company, a major bank, and a drugstore—and the seven-floor Knights of Pythias building, put up by one of the district's innumerable lodges (the inspiration for the Mystic Knights of the Sea on Amos 'n' Andy, which took place in Chicago in its original incarnation). The district boasted seven insurance companies, 106 lawyers, and several hotels, including "The Finest Colored Hotel in the World," the Hotel Brookmont.


The article goes on and on like this, and agree or disagree with parts of it, I thought it was well worth reading, if only for the history lesson, and to check out some of the people he mentions, on Wikipedia.

And pink shay, I think it's fair enough to say what I said. It might be easy for a white man to say that, you say, but (for example) my sisters boyfriend (who is black) doesn't think that racism effects his life in a big way. (Well, that's what he said to me, when I asked him). And he's just a working class bloke.
And he also doesn't have much time for the kind of black politics that says ''nothing has changed.''

And just to add. It's easy to find stuff you don't like in a long article like that, and then just switch off, and say it's all bollocks, (but the glass can be half empty and half full at the same time).
That McW is not a socialist (or even center left) is clear. But he can still have something worthwhile to say when he writes.

For example, I agree with him when he said this: (which was in post #1)
QUOTE
once wariness between groups disappears, people marry across ethnic lines and create a new hybrid people. History records no exceptions; love knows no bounds.
itsmeBarbara
Damon, what happened to Bronzeville? What happened to Detroit's Black Bottom? What happened, in city after city, to the vital centers of African American life in US cities? They were urban renewal-ed away. Those neighborhoods were flattened, plowed over, paved over, made into freeways, condos, neighborhoods for the wealthy. The black communities in the States were displaced over and over again, this is how we came to this pass.

You don't have to look charming to be innocent of attempted manslaughter.
barmyrob
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 20 2007, 10:33 AM) *

For example, I agree with him when he said this: (which was in post #1)
QUOTE
once wariness between groups disappears, people marry across ethnic lines and create a new hybrid people. History records no exceptions; love knows no bounds.



Then you are as ignorant as he is about biology.

Hybrid people my arse.
LeftintheUS
QUOTE(itsmeBarbara @ Sep 19 2007, 12:03 PM) *

Racism in America is the cancer eating at our national heart. To deny it is insane. I don't expect you to reallly understand if you don't live here, but I promise you, every single day brings another outrage, another stupid defensive posturing, another noose on another fucking tree. It's killing my city, it will bring down this nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20737211/


QUOTE(damon @ Sep 20 2007, 02:33 AM) *

And Barbara, I know people seldom look their best in police mugshots, but those six people charged with that hate crime in West Virginia look mentally retarded.


QUOTE(itsmeBarbara @ Sep 20 2007, 08:59 AM) *

You don't have to look charming to be innocent of attempted manslaughter.


I just want it to be clear that you two are talking about different incidents. Barb was bringing up the incident in Jena that I discussed here.

Damon was bringing up the incident in West Virginia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7091801276.html

QUOTE
Prosecutors filed amended felony charges Tuesday in the case of a woman tortured for days in rural West Virginia, changes that mean the six defendants could face life in prison if convicted...

Magistrate Jeffrey Lane referred the case against Frankie Brewster, 49, to a grand jury for action. She owns the home where the suspected assault took place. In addition to charges of kidnapping, sexual assault and giving false information to police, the prosecutor filed three counts of misdemeanor battery against Brewster and dropped a charge of unlawful wounding.

Why were these additional charges likely filed. Well, maybe because prosecuters have been receiving some national scrutiny for not charging the torturers under any of the hate crime statutes, despite the fact:

QUOTE
The six, all white, are accused of assaulting Megan Williams, who is black, for more than a week at a ramshackle trailer in Big Creek.

and:

QUOTE
Reading from a statement Williams gave deputies that day, Sheriff's Deputy Jeffrey Robinette said Megan Williams had been stabbed with what she described as a butcher knife and beaten with wooden sticks and fly swatters. He said the woman was sexually assaulted, doused with hot water and taunted with racial slurs.

The good news? One smart prosecuter did a background check on the victim, found that she had failed to respond to charges of writing four bad checks, removed her from her hospital and took her to court to be charged! Now that is justice!!
pink shay
actually Damon what you said was not fair enough atall!!! fuck off!!!
pink shay
when an entire fucking continent get dragged into a world market it can't compete in, thats racism.
when food lies rotting on a eu food mountain, that could be used to feed starving and undernourished people, thats racism.
when multi fucking national companies steal land from indiginous people, who could use that land to be self sufficient, butr are then forced to work for slave fucking wages - thats racism.
The fact that multi national fucking companies have no boundaries imposed, but people fleeing war, torture and persecution have to fucking beg to be allowed to go somewhere "safe" - thats racism.

.DAMON RACISM IS AN INTERNATIONAL FUCKING INDUSTRY!!!

prisons are predominantley full of black people - thats racism
when kids in school are taught only about white european history, thats racism
the fact that positive discrimination exists is proof positive that racism fucking exists!!!
JBoyd
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 18 2007, 03:15 PM) *

While this may be greeted by another *no no no no* kind of reception, I thought that the multi ethnic London thread was getting off topic, when talking about stuff like this.
QUOTE
Toward a Usable Black History
John H. McWhorter

Our question, then, is whether black history offers us lessons beyond teaching us that we are eternally strangers in our own land. This is a momentous question: we can only feel a visceral sense of legitimacy on our own soil when black identity is not founded on a sense of whites as the enemy without—when we feel American first and black second, which is far from the case today. Today's diversity fans will object that this goal smacks of the erasure of a culture. And in a way, they are correct: once wariness between groups disappears, people marry across ethnic lines and create a new hybrid people. History records no exceptions; love knows no bounds.

In real life, the "salad bowl" metaphor that diversity fans use to describe our proper relation to American life can only describe a temporary stage and shouldn't be our ultimate goal. To be sure, many blacks, and many white fellow travelers, see the competing "melting pot" metaphor as threatening. But since only assimilation will give black Americans a sense of America as a homeland rather than a place of temporary residence, a truly useful black history must teach black Americans that the melting pot is possible and desirable. Yes, residual racism persists in America and must be identified and expunged. But a black history whose main message is "Watch out!" sows cynicism and parochialism and can only point us backward. The history blacks learn must prepare us to take advantage of the ever richer opportunities available to us rather than to resist them as selling out to the Man.



Given the era, I think this kind of politics was justified. But I think that people like McW should (at least) be regarded as having some legitimacy, when they take on the modern politics of race.


First, I have to say that I don't understand some of the specifically American nuances of this; however, there are parallels with some things that are being said and written in the UK.
It seems to me that there are two models for a society that is freed from racism: multiculturalism, in which a multitude of cultures and identities are preserved, respected and nurtured, and integration, in which they are subsumed in a single culture and identity (and of course, they are really the extremes of a continuum with many points in between). I can see arguments for both and would probably come down somewhere between the two points, albeit perhaps closer to the multiculturalist position. I think that there should be room for debate about it without either side being accused of racism: much as I admire Ken Livingstone, his response to Trevor Phillips' criticisms of multiculturalism struck me as absurd and unjustified.
My reading of McWhorter is that he is talking about Black identity and culture rather than racism as such. Ultimately, it seems to me that it is for Black people themselves to decide how they define their own identity; there has been a lot of debate within communities of Asian origin in the UK about how they want to be described and I think that White people should support them in their right to choose. The (White) Left in the UK has been guilty in the past of telling Black people how they should organise politically (there was a big and acrimonious debate in the Labour Party about Black Sections in the Eighties, for example). Quite significant sections of the Left opposed separate Black organisation because they saw it as dividng the working class. So my response to McWhorter is that he may be making a legitimate point and that it is not for me to judge but to listen (and actually I could imagine someone on the Left saying similar things in the UK).


QUOTE(itsmeBarbara @ Sep 20 2007, 04:59 PM) *

Damon, what happened to Bronzeville? What happened to Detroit's Black Bottom? What happened, in city after city, to the vital centers of African American life in US cities? They were urban renewal-ed away. Those neighborhoods were flattened, plowed over, paved over, made into freeways, condos, neighborhoods for the wealthy. The black communities in the States were displaced over and over again, this is how we came to this pass.


I find that interesting, because in the UK, particularly the North of England, many white working-class communities have been 'urban renewal-ed away' with very similar consequences; so whilst I accept that racism is a major part of the problem, I think that the role of economics and class also has to be acknowledged.

QUOTE(pink shay @ Sep 20 2007, 10:38 PM) *

when an entire fucking continent get dragged into a world market it can't compete in, thats racism.
when food lies rotting on a eu food mountain, that could be used to feed starving and undernourished people, thats racism.
when multi fucking national companies steal land from indiginous people, who could use that land to be self sufficient, butr are then forced to work for slave fucking wages - thats racism.


Yes it is, but it is also capitalism. The same system is also responsible for the older people in the UK who will be choosing between adequate heating and adequate food this winter. I think that it is important to make the connection.
pink shay
I am aware of the connection thank you. I was responding to Damons comment that "some people over estimate the level of racism"
itsmeBarbara
My bad. I thought Damon meant Jena as well.

Class certainly plays into this, JBoyd. But at the bottom of the class struggle is the race struggle, and it's very easy to get the folks at the bottom fighting over the scraps. In fact, the easiest thing in the world. It's why so many working class Americans vote Republican, even though it's completely against their own interests.
damon
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Sep 20 2007, 06:12 PM) *

Hybrid people my arse.

I see your point. But I still stand by what I presumed he meant by it when I read it.

And as for pink shay, I don't think we are necessarly talking about the same thing. In Britain today, things are much better than they were. You can't tell me that (for example) the Irish (like both my parents) are still subjected to discrimination. I've spoken to them many times about their experiences in England, and these days, (even though they retain their Irish accents) they never notice being treated differently.
They did in the late 50's, and 1960's - even early 70's.
What you say about Africa is true, but I wasn't talking about that.
I am minded to ageree with Munira Mirza in her article Diversity is divisive, when she (of Asian Muslim background) says:
QUOTE
We have come a long way since the first Race Relations Act was created in 1976. Back then, racist attacks were more common and prejudice more evident in the immigration service, police, employment, housing and education. Thirty years on, racism is clearly in decline, thanks to the efforts of many progressive activists and the gradual cultural integration of ethnic groups in society.

Yet in many ways, our society is much more anxious about race than before. Early findings from the 2005 Home Office Citizenship survey show that nearly half of all people (48 per cent) questioned believed that racism had got worse in the past five years. This was a rise from 43 per cent in 2001. White people were more likely to say this than ethnic minorities, suggesting that perception does not reflect the reality experienced by most people.

Why has this strange paradox emerged? While people from ethnic minority backgrounds are today less likely to confront old-fashioned racism, they are much more likely to confront multicultural policies and practises that racialise them. The principle of equality – that all people should be treated the same regardless of their skin colour or ethnic background – has now been replaced with the principle of diversity, where all cultural identities must be given public recognition. While this sounds nice and inclusive in principle, the overall effect is that people are being treated differently, which fuels a sense of exclusion.
damon
The way I see what pink shay is saying, is that I don't have the right to challange any kind of politics (about race), if it comes from the left, (black or otherwise).
So when I hear people on the radio (who have often changed their names to African ones) arguing that black children need to be taught an Africanist curriculum, do I have to accept what they say?
I am all for changing the history lessons, and way children are taught if it isn't good. And I have agreed with some people on the radio, that the (British) national curriculum doesn't engage with black boys in particular.
But I don't feel I just have to shut up, when people today want to tell black kids that they are not British. But that they are Africans: stolen from their culture and heritage - like that Malcom X youtube I posted above. I don't think it's appropriate today.

By the way, did anyone look at the Stokely Carmichael one? What a magnificent orator.
In it's time and place, I wouldn't speak out against it. But not the thing to be espousing today, (surely?)

So I think it is fair to suggest that things can be exaggerated: (without being told to fuck off).
To some people, the police (in Britain) have always been racist - and always will be.
Simon Wolley of Opperation Black Vote, said that in Britain, ''most non black people see black people as inferior.'' (I made this point only a couple of weeks ago).
It's not a helpful thing to say in a national newspaper, (even if you could prove it as true).

On BBC London radio a couple of sundays ago, the question of the evening was: ''Why don't black boys do so well in school? Is it that their teachers are racists?'' And the first word spoken by their studio guest was ''Yes.''
Because white teachers didn't undrerstand that they had to treat black children differently to all the other children in the classroom, they were (unwittingly perhaps) racist.
That's why, when black boys (they were saying) are louder and more difficult to deal with, (which if a teacher doesn't understand, is a cultural thing), the boys end up getting excluded and expelled from school in such large numbers.
pink shay seems to be suggesting that I can't question this way of thinking.

Munira Mirza, went on to say this:
QUOTE
The most pernicious effect of this new racial thinking is how it fosters tribalism between ethnic and religious groups. They end up competing for resources on the basis that they are more excluded and vulnerable than others. Some Muslim lobby groups have argued that Christian groups already have public funding for their schools and services, so they should, too. In response, there are now Hindu and Sikh organisations demanding their own concessions lest they feel left out. The demand to wear the headscarf one day spurs the demand to wear the crucifix the next. There is a perverse incentive to assert one’s victimisation by others, rather than build alliances. In this climate, no wonder everyone thinks that racism and discrimination is rife.

To challenge the dominance of identity politics, we need to champion an alternative universalist approach. This wouldn’t mean bland similarity, with everybody talking and looking the same. Instead, it would help us challenge the imposition of formal, ethnic categories and allow us to develop richer differences based on character and interests.

I thought it would be interesting to discuss things like this in an open and easy going manner, but some forum members seem to always want to get personal about a difference of opinion.

I think JBoyd is right when he says that McWhorter is talking more about black identity and culture more than racism. He also tends to say that after Martyn Luther Kings death, the radical politics of the Black Panthers was the wrong road to go down.
Agree or disagree, I find it interesting to look into this.

And Barbara, I have (obviously) huge gaps in my knowlege about all this. Which is why I started this thread.
itsmeBarbara
The Panthers were the right road, unfortunately they were infiltrated by the FBI and destroyed.
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
Listen to excerpts of H. Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael addresses at Newton Rally (82 min.)

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/VideoTest/pantherstape2.ram


http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificapanthers.html


FRED HAMPTON black panther party documentary huey newton

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6418849978684923626

COINTELPRO: The FBI's War on Black America

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7574288480731470534
damon
I'll listen to those when I get on a computor that has sound this weekend Lee H. O.

About this idea that claims of racism can't be exaggurated. I think Al Sharpton made himself look foolish in the Howard Beach case 20 years ago, when he insisted that the young white man who had hit the fleeing black man with his car on the motorway, was involved, and that (presumably) it was a deliberate act, and therefore murder. And the fact that his father was a policeman was the only reason he wasn't being charged. There was a police cover up taking place. The racist cops were looking after one of their own.
That (pink shay) is what I meant by exaggeration. (The cops son was later found to be totally uninvolved, and was just driving along the freeway when a man dashed out in front of him). Though thanks to Sharpton, there are probably still people who think it was a police cover up.

I was in the states when this man Nathaniel Jones died after getting arrested (and beaten) by the police in Cincinnati Ohio. I was driving across Ohio at the time, and listening to conservative talk show host Glen Beck's radio programme. He played the whole tape of the incident line by line, and even though he is right wing, it sounded like he was making more sense than some of the callers to the programme who said it was another racist police murder.
A black activist caller from Cincinnati said he was calling a march, and that the community were up in arms about it.

I'm not sure if the police were ever charged, but it sounded to me at the time that they had followed procedure. All the blows on the dead mans body were direced to his lower half, (bacside and legs). None to his head or vital areas, (it was said when his body was examined.) He had an enlarged heart, and died of a heart attack. He was a big man, who was putting up a struggle (with PCP and cocaine in his system) as they tried to cuff him. It's not nice, but using their sticks is what police do in these situations.
If they used excessive force, then of course I would want them held to account and charged.

Policing people like Nathaniel Jones must be very difficult. It was a fire crew that first came to the aid of a man reported passed out on the grass in front of a resturant. They were only trying to help him. That he got aggressive with them is why the police turned up, where they asked him what was going on. He was calling them ''rednecks'', and as he took a swing at one officer, (before they had even touched him), he called out: ''this is what my mama taught me.''

Polce racism and brutality? Maybe it was. Unless there are some other facts I don't know, It sounds to me like it wasn't. Many police forces have a history of racism. The LAPD is particularly notorious. But trying to police ghetto areas must be extremely difficult. I remember hearing one programme on the radio, where someone was out on patrol in an LAPD car, and the police were telling him what was the situation they were driving through. ''These people here here are all gang members'' said one policeman, of groups of people hanging out on the street corners. ''You see the blue bandanas?'' said the cop. ''And you see the hand signals some of them are flashing at us? That's a C, for Crips.''
Policing places like that is a real challange.
matt w
Damon, isolated incidents can be picked up, disected, investigated, analysed and conclusions found 'proving' that in relation to a particular incident, on a particular day, with particular individuals that racism was/wasn't involved.

Imho the police force in the uk is institutionally racist, lip service and a few token positive discrimination appointments and the jobs done eh? No. To fit into our Police force in it's current form it helps to show to a fair percentage of your workmates (off the record obviously) that you're a reactionary racist sexist homophobic bigot.

As I said, it's the institution of the force that's racist, topple that and a domino effect should fall into place.
damon
Are you sure that's not just a case of sour grapes matt? biggrin.gif

Some wise words on the Jena 6 case by John McWhorter I thought: Exposing Bigotry.
QUOTE
Today Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are down in Jena Louisina leading a protest.

Many will roll their eyes. I typically do at the theatrics of aforesaid Messrs. But there are times when it's time to take out the old whistle and blow it on good old-fashioned bigotry.

At Jena High School, black students have traditionally gathered on certain bleachers, while white ones have gathered under a certain tree. At a school assembly last year, a black student jokingly asked whether he was allowed to sit under "the white tree." He and his friends then did so. The next day there were three nooses hanging from that tree.

In the months after this, assorted black-white altercations culminated in six black teens beating up a white one who taunted them.

Five were first convicted of assault, but District Attorney Reed Walters upped the charges to second-degree attempted murder. These boys could have been in jail into their fifties. Jena's black community rose up in indignation.

This month, the conviction of one, Mychal Bell, was overturned since he was under 18 at the time of the attack and should have been tried as a juvenile. Most of the others' charges have been reduced to battery as well.
QUOTE
The Jena story, it must be said, does not show the school's black teens in their best light. In protest against the nooses, a large group staged a sit-in under the tree, and later a larger one tried to address the school board about the incident.

The nooses, though, were a prank. Mean, but a prank. Humor and mischief are all about pushing the envelope: witness Kathy Griffin's comments about Jesus at the Emmy Awards last week.

With racism treated as morally equivalent to pedophilia, naturally some will venture racially insensitive comments to get attention, a tic comic Sarah Silverman overindulges in. The question is why black people must jump to the bait.

"I will go to pieces if you push certain buttons": a statement of weakness. Sweaty youths hang some strings in a tree to remind you of lynching. Would the sky really fall in if you just ignored it? Think how that would deflate the youths, for one thing.

Nevertheless, the villain of the piece is the district attorney. It started after the sit-in, at an assembly the next day. The students were chattering somewhat — that's what teens do. Annoyed, Mr. Walters growled to the black kids, "I can end your lives with the stroke of a pen."

And then trying to leave five teenagers behind bars for thirty years for beating a guy up. That's all it was — Justin Barker was out of the hospital after a few hours and attended an awards ceremony that very night.

I find it impossible to conceive of Mr. Walters trying to put away white kids for thirty years for beating up a black kid. When I say that racism still exists, I refer, after all due reflection, to people like Reed Walters.
QUOTE
If a white mechanic in Queens thinks black people aren't as intelligent as whites, black people can go on with their lives. However, when white officials act upon a sense that what merits a slap on the hand for whites merits decades of confinement for blacks, they contribute to the fact that almost half of America's prisoners are black. In stunting the lives of black men, they help create fatherless communities with young boys on their way to becoming statistics themselves. Furthermore, they feed the defeatist ideology that cherishes decrying racism over teaching black people how to thrive in an imperfect but negotiable world.

So many look upon an America where black-white marriages are ordinary and black people are helping run the country, and are perplexed that so many blacks insist that America is still a "racist nation." To those blacks, however, prisons that are half black when black people are only a tenth-and-change of the population proves that America remains racist to its core despite pretty surfaces. This is the main meal of "gangsta" rap lyrics. This is the root of Sister Souljah's cop-killing insight way back.

To the extent that black men do commit a disproportionate number of violent crimes, this is largely connected to the War on Drugs, and I have argued in a previous column that we need to re-evaluate the criminalization of drug possession and sale, which has been no more successful than Prohibition.

But meanwhile, moves to put away black teens for mere misbehavior for long spells no one would even consider for white teens must be condemned, loudly. For the sake of black communities, and to chip away at the sense that the American establishment views black men as inherently reprehensible.

Most Americans do not view black men that way. However, half-black prisons will always stand as a graphically vivid argument otherwise. Half-black prisons pollute, distract, and constipate our national conversation on race.

To the Jena protesters today, then, please make noise.

I'd be very grateful if anyone could recommend any particular columnists who have written about this case (in the States), in an interesting way.
An American Deborah Orr ( wub.gif) kind of figure.

There was this in The Atlantic magazine.
itsmeBarbara
Damon, first McWhorter, then national recognized racist prick psychopath Glen Beck? ai yi yi.
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
QUOTE(matt w @ Sep 22 2007, 11:13 AM) *

Imho the police force in the uk is institutionally racist, lip service and a few token positive discrimination appointments and the jobs done eh? No. To fit into our Police force in it's current form it helps to show to a fair percentage of your workmates (off the record obviously) that you're a reactionary racist sexist homophobic bigot.

As I said, it's the institution of the force that's racist, topple that and a domino effect should fall into place.


It's kind true. boy i had a mate who worked in the MET and he told me once when steven lawrence's picture was on the TV news in the stations cafeteria, boy did many of the white copper start swearing at the screen with the n word at steven lawrence.

Dispatches Undercover Copper

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=48...788361470&q


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3210614.stm
Tanya
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Sep 22 2007, 05:04 PM) *


I met Mark Daly in a Berlin bar a few years back. I didn't know who he was at first, but I had heard about the "Secret Policeman" documentary, so I knew what he was talking about when he mentioned it. Still haven't seen it yet. He's a very nice and intelligent young man, and an impressive journalist. Brave, too.
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
QUOTE(Tanya @ Sep 22 2007, 05:09 PM) *

QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Sep 22 2007, 05:04 PM) *


I met Mark Daly in a Berlin bar a few years back. I didn't know who he was at first, but I had heard about the "Secret Policeman" documentary, so I knew what he was talking about when he mentioned it. Still haven't seen it yet. He's a very nice and intelligent young man, and an impressive journalist. Brave, too.



i had a go to find a video on the net but only i found was this

http://www.blink.org.uk/docs/secret_policeman.htm
damon
The Fred Hampton documentry that Lee H.O. put up is really good. Thanks for that Lee, I'd never heard of him before.
QUOTE(itsmeBarbara @ Sep 22 2007, 03:55 PM) *

Damon, first McWhorter, then national recognized racist prick psychopath Glen Beck? ai yi yi.

Glen Beck is a Grade 1 asshole, that's for sure. But in the particular case that he was talking about, I think he may well have got it right. I could be wrong of course, as I never followed up what was the outcome of the case. The officers might have been racist pigs, that beat him excessively.
But on that day, as I was listening to the Glen Beck show, (driving west through Ohio on US highway 50), some of the facts of the case were still unknown. The man had died of a heart attack, and was in poor physical health, with an enlarged heart, and a user of dangerous drugs. He had resisted arrest, and had been overpowered by police officers who had (it seems) used their night sticks in an appropriate way.
That some people in Cincinnati were saying it was another case of racist police brutality, may well have been an unjust allegation.

Barbara, I think John McWhorter has got the Jena 6 case about right. When I first heard about this story from a post LeftintheUS did, I had the impression that in places like Jena, there were still things like ''the white tree'' which was old fashoned Deep South style segregation, still at work.
That black and white kids have a tendency to seperate out at lunch time, isn't necessarly a case of white racism still ruling in the old south. The same thing can be seen at my 12 year old niece's school. She gets along with everyone in her year it seems, but if you are into white guitar bands, or anything ''goth'' (or what ever it is these days), then your black classmates are probably not going to share your interest. And so, as you move up through the school, friendships can sometimes take on a racial/cultural hue.

Is it this (from McWhorter) that sticks in the craw?
QUOTE
The nooses, though, were a prank. Mean, but a prank. Humor and mischief are all about pushing the envelope: witness Kathy Griffin's comments about Jesus at the Emmy Awards last week.

With racism treated as morally equivalent to pedophilia, naturally some will venture racially insensitive comments to get attention, a tic comic Sarah Silverman overindulges in. The question is why black people must jump to the bait.

"I will go to pieces if you push certain buttons": a statement of weakness. Sweaty youths hang some strings in a tree to remind you of lynching. Would the sky really fall in if you just ignored it? Think how that would deflate the youths, for one thing.

Nevertheless, the villain of the piece is the district attorney.

I think it shows a sober assessment.

As for the Mark Daly documentry: good for him and well done. Racist police are the last thing we need.
But I think that matt w's opinion:
QUOTE
To fit into our Police force in it's current form it helps to show to a fair percentage of your workmates (off the record obviously) that you're a reactionary racist sexist homophobic bigot.

was too harsh.

I'm not sticking up for the (British) police particularly, (I have witnessed police inside Harlsden police station (in north west london) mocking a middle aged Rasta prisoner, over the way he spoke), but this idea that the police are always the dogs of repression, I think, is childish.

A bit more from that same McW article I started this thread with:
QUOTE
Bronzeville's leaders, clearly, had their eyes on community stability and self-sufficiency. As uncultivated new arrivals from the rural South flooded the city after the 1890s, the black middle class did not cherish them as more "authentic" versions of themselves; they unequivocally saw themselves as models for the new masses. Walters African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church's pastor William A. Blackwell matter-of-factly noted that the migrants, "while speaking the same language as we do, are in many cases little more accustomed to the freedom of this city, the habits and customs of our people, than is the newly arrived peasant from Europe. These people must be amalgamated and assimilated." There was no question of adopting working-class ambivalence toward striving, no question of teaching the district's residents to distrust black successes as "selling out." Quite the contrary: in 1929, a chronicle of Bronzeville's rise counseled, "The Old Negro teaches his children to fear an authoritative white person and to disrespect intelligent and cultured persons of their own race in the same position; the New Negro teaches his children to fear no one and to respect every one worthy of respect."

The New Negro certainly didn't romanticize the black criminal as a martyr, either, despite whites' restriction of blacks to menial jobs until well into the teens. Bronzeville's civic organizations agitated constantly for cleaning up seedy streets and disciplining criminals for the benefit of the community. In 2000, Jesse Jackson decried as "racist" the suspension of black Decatur teenagers who had engaged in a brawl in the stands during a football game. In telling contrast, Dr. George C. Hall of the Chicago National Urban League branch complained in 1917: "The delinquent colored boy or girl who is taken to the juvenile court is turned out again on probation to learn more. If Chicago lacks the vision to see ahead, it will reap the harvest of fostering a kindergarten on the streets where gamins learn crime."

Nor was Bronzeville a fluke: the all-black world now so often considered a fantasy in Amos 'n' Andy also existed in West Baltimore, Atlanta's Auburn Avenue district, Washington, D.C.'s Shaw neighborhood, and elsewhere.

A usable black history can't avoid recounting the demise of these districts. It must cover the race riot that destroyed Tulsa's Greenwood district and the Great Depression's effect on Bronzeville. But simply to treat these districts as an object lesson in white malevolence will extinguish the soul rather than kindle it. Our historical account must show that when blacks were relegated to separate quarters of a big city after Emancipation, the immediate result was not Washington, D.C.'s "Barrytown." Even in a period of naked discrimination, the human spirit bore fruit, and thoroughly ordinary black people again and again created a "Chocolate City" on the middle-class American model and could not have imagined doing otherwise.



I've walked around both Washinton DC's Shaw district (where there is a posted walk you can do, with information plaques outside every site of historical interest), and Atlanta's (Sweet) Auburn, where Dr Martin Luther King is burried.
itsmeBarbara
A mean prank would have been one thing. But in the Deep South, a noose is a noose and it isn't anything else. Guys like McW can protest all they like, it meant exactly what it means.

This is the problem. White guys want to be racist, they like being racist, they feel justified in their racism. When something like Jena happens, they take it personally, because they want to be able to hang a noose when they feel their privilige threatened. Those white boys wanted their tree and hung an unmistakable sign from it.

Civil rights and the women's movement and the current immigration rights movement rock the world of the white man. That's why the mewling cry of PC! PC! PC! rings through the land, because these guys want to say nigger. They want to say bitch. They want to say spic. TOO FUCKING BAD.

I re-read this, and I stand by the statement, but I want it clear that I don't hate white men, I have one of my own, most of them are perfectly fine. It's the Becks and the McWhorter and those stupid cruel entitled little fucks who hung the nooses from the tree to remind the black kids of Jena that they hung black guys from trees before - for being uppity - and will DO IT AGAIN.
matt w
So racists are treated the same as nonces are they? Really I didn't know.

You post that crap then call me childish? Twat.
damon
QUOTE(matt w @ Sep 23 2007, 03:47 PM) *

You post that crap then call me childish? Twat.

I think matt will find, if he bothers to re-read what I wrote, that I said that I thought his opinion of the (British) police was too harsh. And then I said:
QUOTE
but this idea that the police are always the dogs of repression, I think, is childish.

Unless matt w thinks that of the police, then he's completly wrong if he thinks I was talking about him.

As for Barbara's assertion that the Black Panthers were on the right path, until they got infiltrated and then destroyed: that could be a very interesting discussion (if some forum members weren't so quick to personal hostility at stuff they don't like the sound of).
Personally I would say that they (the Panthers) probably ended up harming their people, as there was no way that they could ever win.

A bit like with the IRA. I would be broadly sympathetic to the Irish Republican movement as it emerged from the Civil Rights era. I might even defend the Provisional IRA as it took the war to a new intensity in 1972. But they (I think) should have called it a day after that. The British state was too strong, and carriying on for another 25 years, brought nothing but bad shit to the people of Ireland (and Britain).

QUOTE
A mean prank would have been one thing. But in the Deep South, a noose is a noose and it isn't anything else. Guys like McW can protest all they like, it meant exactly what it means.

I don't think anyone is denying what a noose hanging from a tree means in Louisiana.
QUOTE
It's the Becks and the McWhorter and those stupid cruel entitled little fucks who hung the nooses from the tree to remind the black kids of Jena that they hung black guys from trees before - for being uppity - and will DO IT AGAIN.

Yes Beck is a twat. McW is a conservative with a view somewhat different to matt w's.
Were the white kids who put up the nooses ''entitled'' - I don't know. My experience of driving through places like that, is that the whites are pretty working class.
itsmeBarbara
In the Deep South, as long as you are white, you are above someone. When that is threatened, watch out.
Red Star
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 23 2007, 05:13 PM) *


A bit like with the IRA. I would be broadly sympathetic to the Irish Republican movement as it emerged from the Civil Rights era. I might even defend the Provisional IRA as it took the war to a new intensity in 1972. But they (I think) should have called it a day after that. The British state was too strong, and carriying on for another 25 years, brought nothing but bad shit to the people of Ireland (and Britain).



So the IRA were right to kill & maim people in Britain eh? They were really brave bombing pubs etc.

btw A 'cousin' (2nd or 3rd, can't remember which) who I went to junior school with was murdered by the IRA. He was in the army so probably considered a legitamate target. But again the IRA were really so brave. My cousin was playing in a band at the time hhe was killed ...... in Hyde Park, London.
damon
The Hyde Park and Regents Park bombs were in 1982. I only say that I might have defended the early emergence of the Republican movement, as it was the times. Events unfolded in the way they did, and there was momentum behind them, just like in the States. Something was going to happen, and it did. There was going to be violence (in Ireland), and nothing was going to stop it. I suppose like with the police, when they have attacked working class people (black and white, in Britain and the States), it's a case of ''which side are you on?'' The British Army was a force of repression in Ireland at the beginning of the 1970's. My niece's dad would tell you, he grew up right in the middle of it, in Ballymurphy Belfast.

From that same long article: (is it really all rubbish what he says?)
QUOTE
Today we assume that in any black community an educational crisis must be in full swing. But that wasn't the case in Bronzeville: truancy rates were no higher than among Chicago's white students, and black students performed scholastically as well as white ones. But today's consensus view of the history of black education sees an unrelieved procession from the substandard segregated schools of the South to the inner-city sinkhole schools in today's headlines.

A history ushering blacks into a sense of true membership in their country must make clear that the execrable inner-city schools Jonathan Kozol loves to describe are products of our own times, not business as usual for blacks. From the late 1800s to the 1950s, several black schools were models of scholarly achievement. Students at Washington, D.C.'s Dunbar High, named for the black poet, often outscored the city's white schools on standardized tests as early as 1899. Schools such as Frederick Douglass in Baltimore, Booker T. Washington in Atlanta, P.S. 91 in Brooklyn, McDonough 35 in New Orleans, and many others operated at a similarly high level.

Dunbar alone produced Charles Drew (discoverer of blood plasma), Edward Brooke (the twentieth century's first black senator), William Hastie (the first black federal judge), and other prominent figures. As Thomas Sowell puts it, the sheer weight of accomplished black people that schools like Dunbar produced "suggests some systematic social process at work, rather than anything as geographically random as outstanding individual ability."

Meanwhile, the top black colleges were also providing students with fine educations. The students at Fisk (my mother's alma mater) were put through their paces in Horace and Livy, and graduate W. E. B. Du Bois went on to write his doctoral thesis in German. A Fisk professor's wife was aghast at the news that Talladega (my aunt's alma mater) in Alabama did not even require Greek and Latin for the bachelor's degree.

In an age when existing social and economic inequalities are so often mistaken as the decrees of immutable destiny, the fact that these schools existed and that blacks excelled in them as a matter of course, can seem incredible: all the more reason that historians need to bring them to life in all their vivid glory for a much larger audience than the ones that academic chroniclers, such as the invaluable Thomas Sowell, have reached. Otherwise, collective black success again gets lost in the cracks of an historiography dedicated to stressing the obstacles and setbacks.

One result of that victim-centered approach is the trendy contention that American education is constitutionally inappropriate to the "African" soul, a view Carter G. Woodson memorably espouses in The Mis-education of the Negro. Don't underestimate the influence of this notion: witness the Ebonics movement or the resonant title of the recent megahit black pop recording "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill." The excellent black schools and colleges that actually existed succeeded without Afrocentric curricula. In fact, Dunbar taught Latin into the 1950s, and in the late 1800s black college students often—and famously—took top honors over whites in oratory, and not in the artful slang of "slam poetry," but in literary standard English.

This article covers a lot of history, and my weakness here is being unfarmiliar with some of the history. But it seems like he knows what he's talking about. And even if you disagree, it's (at least) a respectable position to take.
damon
Just to add: you know how I bore you every week with reports of sunday evenings BBC London radio programmes which discusses issues for the black community?
Well last night they had as a guest in the studio, Decima Francis, founder of the From Boyhood to Manhood Foundation. If you've never heard of them, have a read through that link I just did.
Is this organisation conservative? (and therefore to be disparaged?)

Well, I found the couple of hours of politicl talk on the radio, very stimulating.
Especially when they played Decima Francis picking up an award at the MOBO (music of black origin) Awards the other night. This is what she said:
QUOTE
Meanwhile, in an extraordinary and powerful outburst at the awards late last night, Decima Francis, of Boyhood to Manhood, hushed the audience after she was interrupted while reading out a list of recent victims of knife and gun crime that included the white schoolboy Rhs Jones, saying: "19 people are dead. You do not have the right to talk when we're talking about dead people who will not be here tomorrow. You cannot be disrespectful because it is the disrespect for other human beings why we here in Britain are considered the rudest, the most savage, the dunces of Europe - and it's not acceptable. We have the best language you can possibly imagine and we're not using it."

She went on: "I'm going to have a go at the musicians now. You have not got the right to call me a 'ho' and a bitch. How dare you? Get a dictionary and use the language. Don't call us names."

To see the whole thing, here's a 4 minute, 22 second Youtube of the speech she gave.
It was pretty powerful stuff.
But maybe she's just another Uncle Tom McWhorter. unsure.gif
LeftintheUS
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 22 2007, 05:23 AM) *

QUOTE
The nooses, though, were a prank. Mean, but a prank.

That is complete an utter bullshit. McWhorter should be embarrased for even suggesting that.
damon
Therein lies the rub.
These were highschool students: - not even able to by a bottle of Bud, for another three or four years.
So are therefore deemed immature.
What they did was wrong. And they have to have that fact drilled into their heads.
If the school they are at, and the town they live in, don't make efforts to instill this in their children, then that is where the problem lies.
And McW said as much in his article.
The District Attorney Reed Walters, who reccomended the horribly unjust prison sentences, is the villain in this case.

And yes, white trash like those six morons charged in the West Virginia hate crime case are scum.
But that their crime should be highlighted when talking about the politics of race on a forum like this, I would have to question the wisdom of.
Those were not normal people.
That there may be several million people like them in America is tragic.

But the real question should be: ''How did they end up so educationaly subnormal?''
Zippy
QUOTE(LeftintheUS @ Sep 24 2007, 04:49 PM) *

QUOTE(damon @ Sep 22 2007, 05:23 AM) *

QUOTE
The nooses, though, were a prank. Mean, but a prank.

That is complete an utter bullshit. McWhorter should be embarrased for even suggesting that.


Interesting thought, LeftintheUS. My guess is that he gets over any embarrassment upon reviewing his bank statement.
LeftintheUS
QUOTE(damon @ Sep 24 2007, 10:31 AM) *

Therein lies the rub.
These were highschool students: - not even able to by a bottle of Bud, for another three or four years.
So are therefore deemed immature.

They may be immature, but I can't imagine that those who hung the nooses didn't realize what a henious racist symbol they represented.

QUOTE(damon @ Sep 24 2007, 10:31 AM) *

What they did was wrong. And they have to have that fact drilled into their heads.
If the school they are at, and the town they live in, don't make efforts to instill this in their children, then that is where the problem lies.
And McW said as much in his article.
The District Attorney Reed Walters, who reccomended the horribly unjust prison sentences, is the villain in this case.

The DA is one of many villians in this case. The kids who hung the nooses, their parents, the school system and the community. The DA makes a simple scape goat for those who don't want to address the underlying racism.

QUOTE(damon @ Sep 24 2007, 10:31 AM) *

And yes, white trash like those six morons charged in the West Virginia hate crime case are scum.
But that their crime should be highlighted when talking about the politics of race on a forum like this, I would have to question the wisdom of.
Those were not normal people.
That there may be several million people like them in America is tragic.

But the real question should be: ''How did they end up so educationaly subnormal?''

Normal or not, what the West Virginia six did had racist elements as well. I think it fall well within purview of this thread.
damon
In about april 1986, I drove in to Selma Alabama on my Suzuki GS 650 motorcycle (having driven up from Key West Fla, on my way to New Orleans). After looking around the town, (the bridge and a church - if I remember right), I rode to some (sandy) woods on the edge of town, and put up my tent for the night.
It was still light, and some local black people came by, and we talked a bit. They couldn't understand hardly a word of what I was saying. I told them I was from England, and (honestly) they hardly knew of its existence.
''You mean like: The Queen of England?'' they asked.
I don't wan't to be mean, but they were about as educated as those West Virgina six, who are accused of that hate crime.
Later in the evening (in the woods ouside Selma) I had a big black man (and some passengers in his car) asking me where his wife was. She had last been seen talking to some wieird guy from England (or somewhere) who was sleeping in a tent.
I told him she had walked away from where I was, over an hour ago.
He didn't seem too friendly. But they drove on by, down the sandy path in the woods. I was a bit relieved.

The next day I was further west, on a major canal, (the Tennessee-Tombigbe Waterway), where I got chatting to a local white guy and his wife, who were fishing. He used the 'N' word quite liberaly, Which was shocking.
They didn't seem like bad people. They just didn't know any better. Working class Hicks.

My point being: history weighs heavily in places like that. It may be hard for black and white people to reach out to each other. I felt somewhat distanced from the black people by some kind of cultural barrier.
To them, I was a strange white alien.
damon
QUOTE(nevski @ Sep 22 2007, 02:51 PM) *

better than having your nose up the arse of someone at spiked, i reckon.

I guess nevski disagrees with this opinion from Spiked-Online.

QUOTE
Chaining black youth to the victim culture.
Are the commemorations of the abolition of the slave trade helping to foster fatalism amongst young black Britons?


After months of build-up and some cringing apologies, the two-hundredth anniversary of the British abolition of the transatlantic slave trade takes place this weekend. Commemorations of such events from the distant past are rarely subjected to much debate. But they should be.

This week London mayor Ken Livingstone joined in by apologising for London’s role in the slave trade - has Ken really been Ye Olde Mayor for that long? Elsewhere the BBC, always quick to promote ‘racial awareness’, aired numerous programmes on the slave trade in the run-up to the bicentenary. On Sunday, BBC2 will show a documentary titled Ms Dynamite In Search of Nanny Maroon, which follows the titular 25-year-old London rapper as she uncovers the story of the titular black-slave resistance fighter.

And yet, for many it seems that the anniversary of the abolition of the slave trade does not serve as a reminder of how far humanity has progressed, but rather of how little things have changed.

In Sunday’s documentary, Ms Dynamite (known to her mum as Niomi McLean-Daley) argues: ‘There are things which are the direct result of slavery which still affect us today as black people.’ She claims the problem of ‘absent fathers’ can be seen as a ‘result of slavery’, because ‘men were not allowed to be fathers but were used to breed, to create more slaves’. Ms Dynamite has often been criticised for blabbering spectacularly naive comments in the press, but on this issue she’s not alone. Other black commentators and academics also attempt to make a link between slavery then and problems within black communities now.

In recent months, news items seem to have been devoted to monitoring how difficult life is for black Britons. Whether it was ex-Tory frontbencher Patrick Mercer’s comments on ethnic minorities in the army, or the violent arrest of a young black woman, Tomi Comer, in Sheffield, the message constantly rammed home is that if you’re black and living in Britain, the chains of slave-rooted oppression are all around you.

Twenty or thirty years ago, of course, racism was a powerful social force. Back then the police routinely targeted (and sometimes killed) black people living in Britain; local councils frequently denied equal access to resources such as in health and housing. The often open hostility of the state towards black people encouraged freelance racists to go on the offensive.

While black people may experience occasional petty prejudices and verbal abuse today, such actions are no longer given broad sanction by the state. In fact, official ‘anti-racism’ has become so enshrined within every corner of British public life over the past five years that any isolated incident is seized upon as ‘proof’ that Britain is rife with racism. It can equally be argued that it is precisely the rarity of racial incidents today, especially violent ones, that make them so shocking to us.

I think I posted this article up just recently, but my question is, do you disagree with it.
Barbara, I thought your last (but one) post was very powerful, but I wonder how accurate it is. (about whites wanting to be able to say the N word and call people derogatory racist names.)
And if you are right, then this article is getting it wrong. (Although it is about Britain).

That article continues:
QUOTE
As a Further Education college lecturer based in inner London, in recent months I have noticed how young black Londoners seem to be internalising today’s gloomy prognosis. Even allowing for the excessive particularism that multiculturalism fosters, there seems to have been a palpable shift amongst some black teenagers in how they see themselves within society. They often perceive Britain as a place that is either ‘out to get them’ or not really ‘for them’.

In fact, some of my black students are preoccupied with a sense of racial persecution above all else. Classroom chatter revolves around the neglect of black people in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina; the banal comments made about slavery by a contestant on Channel 4’s reality TV show Shipwrecked; that deranged madman who randomly shot at black people in Islington; and, of course, the ongoing ‘relevance’ of slavery. Black students from more middle-class backgrounds reference iconic black figures such as Gil Scott Heron and Stokely Carmichael, though often only in the context of today’s victim culture.

Seeing as young black students are constantly told they will face obstacles in later life, it may not be so surprising that they pass fewer GCSEs than other ethnic groups. No doubt the disadvantages of social class have an enormous impact on educational attainment, but that raises the question of why, say, Indian students from similar social backgrounds do far better than black students. From my experience in front of the whiteboard, students of Indian parentage don’t perceive Britain as peculiarly hostile, whereas black students do.

It seems that very few forum members have any time for this kind of analysis, which I think is a shame, as I think it definatly shows some clear fresh thinking.
And if you don't know; many of the people who write for this website, were members of the (now defunct) Revolutionary Communist Party.
They were (and still are) - hard core anti-racists.
pink shay
So Damon, if youre saying that the police force isnt institutionally racist would you please explain how it is that the majority of people who get arrested and charged are of ethnic origin?

is it
1) people of ethnic origin are more likely to commit crime
2)youre talking a load of wank
3) you need time to think carefully abut the answer.

no quotes please!
pink shay
i dropped a mate home who lives in blocks with a really high number of refugees and assylum seekers
It was very dark.
when i drove away I was blued and twoed by a police car behind me. I pulled over and one of them came to my door. i wound down the window and he said
"oh, its okay you can go. I can see you're not upto any trouble!"
I really didnt understand this atall (im always up to trouble rolleyes.gif ).
i asked him to explain what he meant and why he stopped me.
he said "im telling you you can go!" this went on and then he finally said
"the area that you left has a large number of refugees living there and i was checking the car wasnt stolen"

me "so youre saying you stopped me cause you thought i was a refugee and now you se im white, you assume ive not done anyting wrong? is that right? "

"yes. whats your problem with that" he says

"i could have a dead body in my boot for all you know" i said.

anyway. upsht was i reported him first ing the next morning and someone came to mine to take a statement.


and a friend of mine who was going to jpoin the force has now decided against it cause of the institutionalised racsm.
Jon
QUOTE(pink shay @ Sep 25 2007, 01:43 PM) *

So Damon, if youre saying that the police force isnt institutionally racist would you please explain how it is that the majority of people who get arrested and charged are of ethnic origin?


My brother in law used to get stopped by the police every weekend.
He ran a local club where the bouncers were big black men and he used to take them home in the wee hours.
One of the local coppers actually told him, that if his car wasn't full of black men, he wouldn't get stopped ohmy.gif

That was 20 years ago, and I don't think anything's changed!
pink shay
QUOTE
That was 20 years ago, and I don't think anything's changed!


Jon, dont let Damon see you say that rolleyes.gif
pink shay
QUOTE
It was still light, and some local black people came by, and we talked a bit. They couldn't understand hardly a word of what I was saying. I told them I was from England, and (honestly) they hardly knew of its existence.
''You mean like: The Queen of England?'' they asked.
I don't wan't to be mean, but they were about as educated as those West Virgina six, who are accused of that hate crime.


mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif
first issue...why should they understand you? did you attempt to make yourown self understood?
2nd issue, why should they know of englands existance? why do you think we're so important? the reson you know about other countries is you can afford to travel and becuase you have access to ther internet, books, tv, worlwide media. not every person on earth has that. nor infact is it significant to everyone.
3rd issue. the whole education thing. you talk about them being uneducated as if its their own fault! and ...when you say uneducated, just because they dont know about england does not make them uneducated! they probably know about a whole bunch of stuff you know nothing about. maybe in their world Damon, you would be seen as the uneducated one!
Sarah lady
Shay - in this world he's seen as the uneducated one!!
damon
QUOTE(matt w @ Sep 22 2007, 11:13 AM) *

To fit into our Police force in it's current form it helps to show to a fair percentage of your workmates (off the record obviously) that you're a reactionary racist sexist homophobic bigot.

I'm trying not to get too drawn in to this kind of discussion pink shay, (on the terms that matt w wants to have it anyway), as it seems to be too polarising and narrow minded.
Yes the police can be the things matt says. But that arguement (to me) is too rigid.
And my answer to your questions:
QUOTE
So Damon, if youre saying that the police force isnt institutionally racist would you please explain how it is that the majority of people who get arrested and charged are of ethnic origin?

is it
1) people of ethnic origin are more likely to commit crime
2)youre talking a load of wank
3) you need time to think carefully abut the answer.

....is probably a bit of all three. And before you get mad at me for suggesting that point 3 might have some validity, 8,000 people in British prisons, out of a total of 80,000, are not British citizens.
But it might be all down to the pigs.

Can I just add this to to this post?
QUOTE
Ireland forced to open immigrant school.

· Dozens turned down by local Catholic primaries
· Councillor warns of mini apartheid in seaside town

Henry McDonald, Ireland correspondent
Tuesday September 25, 2007
The Guardian


Under a dank sky and with a statue of Christ, arms outstretched in welcome, it seemed like just another opening day in the life of an ordinary Irish primary school. But the school in Balbriggan, Co Dublin, which finally opened its doors yesterday morning, has been the centre of a national controversy which has highlighted how Ireland is failing to cope with the influx of tens of thousands of immigrants.
Ireland's newest primary school is overwhelmingly black, the majority of its pupils with parents from Nigeria and some, judging by the number of mothers in head-scarves, from the Islamic faith.

The school was created out of incompetence rather than design. A huge population increase, partly due to immigration from Africa, China and eastern Europe, has put enormous pressure on the school system. The result, according to one local councillor, has been the creation of a "mini-apartheid" in the seaside town, with the new "emergency" school almost exclusively filled with the children of immigrants.
Dozens of children from non-Irish ethnic backgrounds had been turned down by local Catholic schools principally because they did not hold Catholic baptismal certificates. More than 90% of schools in the republic are run by the Catholic church. Up to 100 children were facing the new term with no place at primary school in the north Co Dublin region.

That was from this article in today's Guardian.

!0% of Irelands population is now foriegn born. That's quite some change even from ten years ago, when as a delivery driver in County Dublin, I used to get all around the place.
Then, I could see this phenomenom just getting going.
I welcome it, (as that's what I'm in to). But I understand how some of my (obviously Nazi) relatives, aren't so sure.
Zippy
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