Scooter Libby sentenced to 30 months in jail

Isn't it great?

Did you see this?

http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/.../libby_letters/

Letters of recommondation from his war criminal pals.

And look how that turned out.

Not a surprise, but there you go.

It's also not a surprise that Chris Langham was aquitted of sexual abuse, though I think he was lying through his teeth.

Also, his excuses for viewing child porn are not only incredibly feeble and misguided, they are incredibly common ones given by pedophiles to explain away their behavior. There's always an excuse why what they are doing isn't really so bad.

And the "I didn't want to be labeled a pedophile/I'm not a pedophile" statements are quite like the people who say "I'm not a racist but....(insert offensive, racist comment here.)"

Very few people are extreme enough to label themselves as racists. It doesn't mean they aren't. In fact, they are in some ways the least insidious , dangerous racists.

It's not a perfect analogy, but as in the above, no one wants to be labeled a pedophile, and most pedophiles make quite an effort to convince themselves they are no such thing.

He certainly displayed classic grooming behavior, by his own admission of his actions.

I'm pissed off, and very saddened by it all.

Then again, Britain's justice system and popular culture have such an incredibly sad, misguided understanding of what sexual abuse, rape, and other such crimes are that there's no reason this should be any different. It's not that far off the the sharia law that says you have to have a witness to rape before anyone can be convicted.

Maria, I'd just say this (with no intention of hijacking another thread). I agree with you when you say that if people insist that they aren't racist, doesn't mean that they couldn't be.
It also goes (in my opinion) that just because someone thinks that someone is racist, that doesn't mean that they are.
Even on this forum I have seen (and experienced) some very poor judgement from some members using that accusation.
And by misusing the word, (the R word), it undermines (or sullies) its impact.
In fact, I go a bit further. Using that word with gay abandon, hinders anti racism.

4 witnesses Maria. 4 male witnesses to be precise. I'm not sure if women can be called as witnesses to rape - but if they are, there had better be 8 of them, since a single female witness counts as only half a male witness in Sharia.

Damon, go away and be quiet.

Rob, yes, I'd forgotten it was four. I don't think women count as witnesses at all in these cases. Which is pretty much like sexual crimes in the UK, in my experience.

I was actually trying to make a (what I would think) is a reasonable political point.
Jast as many claims of Islamophobia turn out to be spurious (like barmyrob has said), so too with the overuse of accusations of racism. Because of its misuse by people with a certain kind of way of looking at the world, to even use it these days needs needs some further evidence to back this claim up.

The Macpherson Report that came out after the Stephen Lawerence enquiry, has a clause that says that anything that someone says is racist, is a racist incident. (Although this is all a bit off topic for this thread, having been called a psuedo-racist by several people on this forum I thought I might have right of reply.)

I think there is some confusion in getting it clear about what is and what isn't racist.
This guy outlined what might be going on in this article. In it he says:

So, sorry for being off topic, but I just wanted to show that there are people who have different opinions, on all kinds of things, and just because a person thinks they are so right on and trendy, doesn't mean that they necessarly are.

If you are sorry for being off topic, stop doing it.

You aren't and you won't.

and you'll find and post them

Why won't he just go away and let the grown ups have their conversations?!

Grown ups?
You obviously despise working class people, and everyone I work with.
That's truck drivers, warehouse staff, and admin staff who read the daily mail.
Mums who are very upset about the Maddie case in Portugal, and those who read about Amy Whitehouse this morning in the Sun.

No Damon, she only meant you. Stop putting words in other peoples mouths, it's not a very grown up thing to do.

maybe not

Damon (because you seem to be unable to work out when you're being addressed) - Fuck off with your Sun loving emotional bollocks.
"Mums worried about Maddy" - give me a fucking break and fuck off while you're doing it.

...and now I need to wipe coffee of my monitor!

I know she did. But I still find her elitist. All that ethical and no sweat stuff is about sticking your nose in the air.

Words fail me.

Bloody Hell, L

I'm going to need to shrink wrap my monitor once I've cleaned the coke up

No it isn't you fucking moron, its about getting a fair wage for a fair days work.
You have no idea how much I slog my guts out for NoSweat to make this happen, not just in far flung sweatshops in Mexico and China but down the road in the East End as well.
Don't you EVER dare to claim I do it for some yummy mummy elitist bullshit.

I'm in no way elitist - I just don't like you because I think you're a fucking moron.

AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR NOW?

I've heard you loud and clear since I came on this forum Sarah.
The way I see it with some folk is, that if they don't get people, or politicaly disagree with them, the thing to do is ........ well, do what you do.
There was an article I read yesterday on the Spiked website, about Doreen Lawrence (mother of murdered teenager Stephen) that I reckon will sail about a mile over your head.
I would have thought though, that people had the right to have different opinions without the rubbish you go in for.

It was titled: Who does Doreen Lawrence think she is? She slagged of London mayoral hopeful Boris Johnson by saying:

Johnson has said all kinds of dodgy things, and I don't think he is a suitable person to become our mayor (I'd even vote for Ken over him), but that doesn't mean I agree with her front page of the Guardian broadside last saturday.

From the Spiked article:

But since Andy Larter equated someone making a light heartrd remark about Salman Rushdie and his eye for crumpet, with the racist atitudes of the Black and White Minstrel Show, without anyone pulling him up and saying ''Steady on there Andy, you can't say they are the same'' this post will probably go down the toilet too.

And Leontien, what on earth was that? It doesn't look like anything I recognise, (thank god).

What a fucking surprise - if in doubt, post something from Spiked.

This has nothing to do with your politics Damon, I've no fucking clue what your politics are as your posts are so badly thought out, I've no idea what your point is, ever.

And if you can't see a KNOB HEAD when you see one, you really are in trouble.

Damon, sarah's way, way too down to earth to be elitist like that.

It's called shouting for your cause, something you believe in. Politicians, singer songwriters, all sorts do it.

The sticking your nose in the air lot never have anything to do with me, no doubt 'cos I'm so god damn rude to them. No doubt see you soon sarah.

I always knew you were dickless

Damon, I started out thinking you were not a biggot, just not terribly bright and a bit misguided.
But you don't do anything to improve yourself. Month after month you keep getting your information from the worst sources available, populist nonsense and polymics, instead of spending time reading informed sources and educating yourself on the issues of the world.

Besides that, you complain a lot about the state of the world without apparently ever taking action or changing your ways. And then you snib at people who do give their time and effort for causes they believe in.

All that combined make me think you are not a very pleasant human being. Discussions with you are like wrestling an eel in a bucket of snot and I have better things to do with my time than spend it on you and the likes of you.

I will ignore everything you say from now on, I'm sure it won't stop you posting but it will save a lot of my precious time and keeps my bloodpressure low

I know Leontien. You're of that ''They say they aren't racist, but we know better'' way of thinking.
That we have a difference of opinion could have been an area for debate.
But you and Sarah prefer to polarise everything, in a George Bush kind of way.
Your either with us, or agin us.
And that you bring bigot into it, like matt w who called me a cunt, is I think, pretty shameful.

No Damon, I kept an open mind for months but the way you put Sarah down just really clinched it for me.
BTW: I don't think you're a rascist. A bigot is something else, isn't it? If not, I'll take it back. I just think you are a total dickhead.

No, you are a biggot:
": a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices;"
That's really what I think you are.
But I don't think the second definition applies to you " especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".
And I don't think you hate anybody, you don't have that much passion in you.

And Sarah lady had it sussed way before any of you. She told me to fuck off well over a year ago.
Well as she says (herself), she doesn't suffer fools gladly.

FINALLY he gets it.
Finally...

edited because it is horrific that you use someones beliefs and commitments to make a personal swipe at them!
nothing else nees to be said!

Edited:
Best say nothing.

Edited:
Peace - Love - Harmony (Hari Krishna etc).

I looked up the word bigot in the dictionary and thesaurus. It has surprisingly more meanings than I thought. So I'll perhaps accept some of the more obscure meanings of that word being directed against me by Leontien. (She does seem to disagree with Joaniecumpet though, who said that I was a bigot of the racist kind, rather than like leontien seems to imply, just one of the thick and bull headed kind.)

I'll post something in a while on the multi-ethnic london page about why I think I got into this rather unpleasant state of affairs. I'm thinking of a post that Leontien wrote six months ago about how and why a part of The Hague became a bit of a ghetto. It was quite a good post I thought, and I'll see if I can look it up.
(So if I mention her name, I'm not talking behind her back.)

i vaguely remember, but can't find. Could you post a link to that please damon?

I can't find it either. Maybe I imagined it - whatever. I'm not that fussed. But I think if I remember rightly, you were gallantly backing up one of the more strong willed forum members, who had castigated me once again about something, and I must have said something a bit snappy back.
What I did find funny a couple of days ago though (and this isn't to be unpleasant or anything), but Sarah said this:
and Zippy said somthing similar (though a little less forthrightly probably).
Who'd have thought it? And on the same day too.

So elsewhere you said i was being 'childish' for calling you a cunt. Then it became 'pretty shameful', but actually you're really not that fussed and i was acting gallantly.

Let us know when you've got round to making your mind up will you? Thanks.

I'm not going to add fuel to the above flame war, so I'd just like to ask if anyone has any insight into why this Maddie story is such a big deal. I certainly can't fault her parents for using the media to help their search (I'd do the same), but why are the media covering this so aggressively? Why has this abducted child been deemed worth more attention than any of the thousands of others? Why, for instance, did we only hear about Natascha Kampusch after she'd been able to escape her captor, and not years before, when she was first abducted?

My point is that I work in the news, and I still don't understand the process behind editorial decisions of this sort. How much if it is a reaction to actual public interest, and how much is the media creating that interest by covering it?

Tanya: because she's British, and there are an awful lot of British people with an overwhelming surplus of sympathy and emotion and somewhat questionable judgement regarding where to offload it, aided by The Sun newspaper, which has unquestionably bad judgement regarding where to offload it. See for example, Diana, the Liverpool chicken foetus, etc.

It also helps that she's four, and caring about four year olds is allowed even by those that don't normally give a damn about anyone or anything else.

Plus we're now into the silly season.

This is, of course, mere uninformed cynical speculation.

adding a bit more 'uninformed cynical speculation', the fact that she's white and from a middle class background has helped the cause. Doubtless if she were from a poor 'non-white' background, the Sun would be braying for the remaining children to be taken into care whilst mounting a hate campaign?

Well matt, to be even more boring than usual, I said it was childish originally (but was actually a bit shocked) the ''shameful'' one was probably when I was a bit pissed, and the ''not fussed'' one was me trying to play it down a bit. And btw, even though you were being gallant, I think your gallantry was misplaced in that particular instance, as the strong willed member had gotton on my case (I thought unfairly) several times before. And so I raked up somethig from before I even joined this forum. (Not good judgement on my part I know).

Anyway, back to the conversation about Maddie...

I think a lot has to do with the fact she's a very pretty little girl and the family have given so many images of her for use in the campaign - its not like it used to be with one picture that the media get bored with.

I find the whole case utterly bizarre, not just the media overkill over here but the media blackout in Portugal- not issuing a discription of a suspect, for fear it would jeopardise a case if it ever got to court, how often do things get to court in Portugal if they can't ever catch anyone?
I also find it very odd that despite having had one child abducted, they still put both their other children in the holiday resorts creche every day. If it was me, I'd want my children as close to me as possible, not away from me all day, every day.

I agree with Sarah lady on the thing about the media images. The family viedo clip when she's looking straight into the camera and biting her bottom lip, and then kind of pursing them in an ooww kind of way, is heartstopping.
I also thought what Joe said about her being four years old was right on it.

Some of the media here (you know the ones) are no doubt lapping up the differences in how the portugese media and police are handling the case, and pointing out how much better the british'd be at handling, well everything really and this is another example of how europe gets things wrong etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, 'cos the british media are fucking ideal and miscarriages of justice are a thing of the past aren't they? ffs

Brain trying to do too many things at once. Obviously I know its Court Matt, but thanks for pointing it out so I can't go back and edit it!

Yes you can.

Thank you my love!!

1. Summer season - few other stories.
2. Well organised media campaign (a slow drip of exclusive interviews and stunts)
3. There is something about the story that just isn't quite right. I think the media smell something.

I think ideas like that are based on nothing. I think to even say it is complete rot.
But I have no better idea than barmyrob or anyone else. So gut feeling is as good an analysis as anything else I suppose.

Media here reported a week ago that the portuguese police found blood in the parent's appartment and suggested the portugese suspected the parents. Haven't heard anything new though.

The coverage here, as you can imagine has been rather more than that Leontien.
The Portugese police have publicly said that they do not consider the parents or their friends as suspects.

I'm with Rob on this, there is something just not quite right about the whole thing, as I said, I find their behaviour regarding their other children really odd.