Discuss.

I would if I knew what it meant.

Does it mean this? "Progressivism is a term that refers to a broad school of international social and political philosophies. The term progressive was first widely used in late 19th century America, in reference to a general branch of political thought which arose as a response to the vast changes brought by industrialization, and as an alternative to the traditional conservative response to social and economic issues. Political parties such as the American Progressive Party organized at the start of the 20th century, and progressivism made great strides under American presidents Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft, Woodrow Wilson, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Progressivism historically advocates the advancement of workers' rights and social justice. The progressives were early proponents of anti-trust laws and the regulation of large corporations and monopolies, as well as government-funded environmentalism and the creation of National Parks and Wildlife Refuges."

Or this?

"The most striking tendency and identifying feature of any given piece of progressive rock is that it feels carefully composed, yet spontaneous and improvised at the same time. Progressive rock lends itself as much to intellectual analysis as it does to emotional enjoyment."

The first definition! Definitely the first definition.

My question to Damon is obvious: When did politics become so pseudopseudohypoparathyroidistic? I like olives, I really do. I like Greek olives just as much as I like Spanish olives. John McWhorter who wrote a book called Authentically black - where he (as a Black guy) asked some questions and tried to put up some answers about the condition of black Americans today. Should there be a group identity or at least solidarity [?] My sofa broke last night. Do progressives understand how much rain fell in my part of the world two weeks ago? Ben and Jerry's Oatmeal Cookie Chunk is currently my favorite and I know I'll be enjoying a pint at the end of this day. What do you do when your Hoover breaks?

I agree with you but I was joking about progressive rock.

I think criticism of consumerism is a big part of progressive politics - but it's problematical - I sit in my condo at my Mac waiting for my husband to take me somewhere in our new Ford automobile. I'm wearing New Balance sneakers and a locally made hemp shirt but my jeans are Levi. Am I a hypocrite? Or pragmatic - after all, I can't be naked.

So progressive politics can and should mean a struggle for a level playing field. I am glad Zippy is drinking Pepsi instead of Coke, because when you are dealing with degrees Coke is a much worse political choice then Pepsi. His other choice of foodstuffs worry me, but that's just the friend and obsessor in me

I want more from our elected "leaders". I want our Constitution and Bill of Rights enforced. I want empathy and compassion back in our public ways. I want institutional murder stopped.

In the spirit of Robert LaFollette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette,_Sr.

I want my country back from the plunderers and robber barons.

Did you see Naomi Wolf's piece in the Guardian last week?

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

"From Hitler to Pinochet and beyond, history shows there are certain steps that any would-be dictator must take to destroy constitutional freedoms. And, argues Naomi Wolf, George Bush and his administration seem to be taking them all"

Scary stuff.

Zippy - you're officially a genius

Too clever for me Zippy.

Is the Reverend Al Sharpton progressive? He says plenty that is. But overall?

Barack Obama seems to think so, as he had his arm around Sharpton's shoulder in a photo the other day.

Is Frank Furedi progressive?
(Sounds to me like he is)

No he's a libertarian ideologue.

That isn't progressive - ideology, by it's very nature is not progressive. It is dogmatic.

Progressive politics are non-dogmatic.

Also - I found that article quiet funny - here Furedi is - denying he is part of an ideological group in the media - and the name checks in the article are all people that Damon keeps telling us to read!

Get a girlfriend?

It would be cool to hear what Zippy and Sarah think about Al Sharpton.

I've heard Frank Furedi speak about two dozen times. I think he speaks (very) well.

I also think that Claire Fox News is progressive.
The three people to the right of the picture are all RCP - the bloke on the left I don't know. He wrote a book, so he can't stop talking - but these people are progressive (in my opinion).

Damon

There is nothing progressive about the RCP. Period.

are people still progressive

it is what Party people used to say about people who were basically thinking along the same lines.

No; the privatisation programme effectively eliminated the State's role in industry and transport; the "Right to Buy" policy began a process which has now all but ended its role as a housing provider. And that's before the effect of the promotion of private healthcare and education and underinvestment in public services is taken into account. Even Clause 28 was an attempt to limit the role of the state (and therefore in a strict sense, "liberal" legislation). Taken together, unless you define "the state" very narrowly, the Thatcher government presided over a reduction in its role and size that could not have been envisaged in the fifties, sixties or early seventies.



Leaving aside any judgement on New Labour as a government, to suggest that it has rendered the left/right distinction meaningless seems to me to be absurd, because so many people still use exactly the same left/right/centre model to discuss politics: Blair and Brown shifted Labour to the right because they and many others believed that elections could only be won from the centre ground. Cameron is now shifting the Tories leftwards for exactly the same reason. Brown will face a challenge from the Left, and many of us in the party still consider ourselves to be "left-wing" - just as there is an increasingly discontented Right lurking behind Cameron.
Socialism still exists as an ideology and has considerable support.
Ironically, if one term has become problematic, if not actually redundant, it is arguably "conservative"; Thatcher turned the Tories away from conservatism (i.e. defending the status quo) into a radical liberal party in economic terms, if not entirely in its approach to social policy.



The old hardline communists of the seventies CP referred to themselves and their allies as 'progressives'; and I read an article a while ago in which Melanie Phillips described herself as a 'progressive', on the basis of her objectives despite her opposition to most 'progressive' policy. The problem for me is that 'progressive' begs the question "Progress towards what, and by what means?"
It's ultimately mostly a question of semantics, but I think that 'progressive' like 'radical' is far too woolly.

I prefer the term 'Socialist'...

do you want to see the social ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.

if not, you are not a socialist.

you might be a very nice person, progressive even, but not a socialist.

Yes.

bollocks

Please watch Adam Curtis' The Trap - still on google video last time I looked.

Will try - how do you find it?

Clause 28 was intended to prevent Local Government "promoting" homosexuality; that was obviously a) absurd and bigoted. However, given that Local Government is part of the state, how can it be seen as anything other than an attempt to restrict the role of the state?

It wasn't restriction. It was control. If dictating what local authorities can and cannot do isn't control then I don't know what is. It certainly isn't laissez faire!



http://video.google.com/videosearch?client...sa=N&tab=wv

It seems to be, that progressive is what ever people think it is. Was the CPGB progressive?

What about things like: Sinn Fein (today), Basque nationalism, Scottish nationalism?
The calling for proffesor David Coleman of Oxford Uni to be sacked because he is the co-founder of Migration Watch?

Or Red Action, the anti-fascist (but pro IRA) group?
Unite Against Fascism, who called for the sacking of the BNP ballerina?

Is it that people or groups can have both progressive tendencies and unprogressive ones?
The CPGB regretted some of their former positions in the end.
The RCP people might do the same, but I can't help seeing that much of what I've read from Munira Mirza is progressive.

I was taking "the state" to include all governmental activity both local and national. I think that this is the most sensible way of defining it, though not the only one.
After all, if local authorities aren't part of "the state", then we have never had "state education" in this country!
And more to the point it is the definition Thatcherites use.

Yes, not disputing that. But Clause 28 was definitely an attempt to control by curtailing what the Tories saw as amoralism - nothing to do with retrenchment.

It wasn't the only thing - Thatcher liked to remove power from local authorities, as they were often oppossed to her, and passed those powers to the central state - anti-devolution if you like. She abolished the GLC, not because of ideology, but because it was run by Labour!

I've just watched the first two episodes of The Trap thanks to barbyrob's link. But to anyone who hasn't seen it, might I suggest you don't start with episode one. It was so bizzare I couldn't really understand it - but episode 2 makes it much clearer, and is more up to date, about Thacther, Clinton and Blair - which makes episode 1 now make more sense.

I had only heard of The Trap from reading an article by John Fitzpatrick in Spiked, titled: Our anger is being ironed out of us, in which Fitzpatrick interviews Adam Curtis, the guy who made it.
He talks about the ideas in the films in a positive way - (barmyrob, you didn't say what you thought of the film. Do you see it as progressive?)

John Fitzpatrick was in that episode of Claire Fox News that I linked to several posts back.
I've got to watch episode 3 of the trap asap.

I thought it was illuminating

Yes, there was a moralistic aspect to Clause 28, and yes, Thatcherism centralised power (although some of the powers removed from local authorities actually disappeared - in relation to public transport, for example), however, I don't think you can escape the fact that its central principle, much of its rhetoric, and a lot of its policy was actually about the reduction of state power.
And it's significant that Clause 28 didn't impose a responsibility on local government to promote heterosexuality or "family values"... there was an underlying assumption that the state had no legitimate role in relation to individuals' sexual behaviour outside the context of the criminal law.



I have to say (though I've not watched all of it) that I found parts of it persuasive, but a lot of it far-fetched: the explanation of developments in the NHS for example, assumed a much greater degree of coherent ideological direction than I think is realistic. Politics and the behaviour of governments are much more shambolic and ad hoc than Curtis seems to imply.

I don't see that it negates the assumption that the Left/Right/Centre model of politics still holds true.

I was also a bit put off by the style (the way arguments and ideas were connected) - Curtis's description of it as "collage" was pretty accurate, I thought.

And I hope you appreciate the irony of the fact that I was also a bit put off by the enthusiastic endorsement on "Spiked"......

I guess it was too much to ask for an opinion on Al Sharpton.
Even from our official genius who lives in the same state.

I'm still not sure about Basque nationalism. Many Basques say they are oppressed by Spain, but they live in such a lovely part of the world, with high standards of living, and a great deal of autonomy.

I don't think we really disagree. But I'm not sure the rhethoric matched they actually did.



I don't think so at all. It was about the how ideology behind the internal market - the belief that human beings only make decisions for selfish economic reasons. The internal market in the NHS was the logical conclusion of the philosphies which Thatcher et al adhered to.

I agree with you, but I think that the reasoning was a little more subtle than that and came from a view of the way markets work; it's the suggestion that the philosophy marked some fundamental shift in the prevailing cultural view of human beings that I'm doubtful about.

I think the evidence of that is everywhere around us. That Thatcher didn't believe in society was considered radical at the time, but I think the majority would now agree with that.

Everytime I see some wanker driving at 40mph past a school in an X5 I do wonder if she was right.

Sorry, but do you mean that the majority now agree that there is no such thing as society, or that self-interest is all that matters?

the first bit

Well then I think that you are wrong factually; even Cameron and Letwin are talking about society and social policy, albeit in Rightish and rather vague terms.

So is it just me then? Am I just a bit thick or something (like Sarah reckons? )

But when I read an article like this one by Munira Mirza it sounds progressive to me.

I've linked to a few of her articles before, because I thought they were really good, but the only response on the forum was someone calling her a ''nobel/house nawab'' - which I think is meant as an insult.

The article is about identity politics, and how the promotion of 'difference' has had some unintended consequences.
Mirza calls for a more universalist approach to be adopted.

It depends what is meant by "progressive". I may be being pedantic, but I've still not seen a clear definition.

"Progressivism is a term that refers to a broad school of international social and political philosophies. The term progressive was first widely used in late 19th century America, in reference to a general branch of political thought which arose as a response to the vast changes brought by industrialization, and as an alternative to the traditional conservative response to social and economic issues. Political parties such as the American Progressive Party organized at the start of the 20th century, and progressivism made great strides under American presidents Theodore Roosevelt, William H. Taft, Woodrow Wilson, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Progressivism historically advocates the advancement of workers' rights and social justice. The progressives were early proponents of anti-trust laws and the regulation of large corporations and monopolies, as well as government-funded environmentalism and the creation of National Parks and Wildlife Refuges."

That's quite a narrow definition then. I have taken it to mean ideas that are positive. But what is positive would then be up for debate. Some things that start off as positive can end up being the opposite.
Like that article I linked to above argues.
Where reforming the police to get rid of unacceptable behavoir from both individual officers and the whole institution, can end up with officers arresting children for using the word 'gay' in the playground.
Or is that another urban myth?

"Progressivism is a term that refers to a broad school of international social and political philosophies." Why not try reading some of them before guessing what it all means?

Progressive politics - non elitist and non ideological solutions to problems using reason; evidence based policies that aim to correct injustice and market failure for the benefit of the people.

To me, this is too wide-ranging to be useful; it obviously embraces Keynesian economics (FDR) which many who might now consider themselves advocates of social justice would reject.
The Roosevelts and Woodrow Wilson are often cited by people like Irwin Stelzer and Irvin Krystol as the forefathers of Neo-Conservatism.
And, again others on the "Right" like Melanie Phillips claim to be "progressive" because they are advocating measures that increase the rights of all citizens and, on their definition, "social justice".



"Non-ideological" rules out just about everyone and everything.
Plenty of Thatcherites would adapt that definition to include themselves..

OK so it's a broad school.
Sinn Fein and the Basque nationalist party (Herri Batasuna) can't be progressive then, as they are ideological.
The same would go for Al Sharpton, for the same reason I presume.

Isn't some of the ''eco rhetoric'' getting somewhat ideological?

What's the opposite of progressive? Reactionary?
If you are not progressive can you just be ........... (eg).... a Liberal Democrat? Or Hazel Blears?

(I guess I better just look it up myself )

Barmy, they may claim that but does the claim really stand up that they are progressive ideas? You used the phrase "on their definition," which indicates that Philips's definition of 'progressive' is not likely to concur with yours, mine or the one I quoted above. However, I have no problem with your definiton either and I don't think 'progressive' is a political term that can be summed up in a soundbite.

Andy,
Apologies, but these bits were mine, not Barmy's (I made pig's ear of the quotes):






I dislike the term "progressive" exactly because it can be defined in ways that enable the Right to claim it; in the end, we are talking about a kind of shorthand for political philosophies, and I think that "Left" and "Right" and "Socialist" work in that respect because their definitions are more precise and can, actually be pretty well 'summed up in a soundbite'

I think I agree with you. However, I don't like soundbites because they tend to be misquoted, taken out of context and all that. Maybe as we're more in tune with terms like 'left,' 'right,' 'socialism' or 'conservative' we have inernalised a definition that works. "Progressive" doesn't really work for me either, although I remember reading the word in those cheap "Progress Publishers" tracts I picked up as a youth.

Yes, I've still got a loft full of them!

In an attempt to be progressive, I gave mine to a CP club in the hope that they would read them and convert to socialism.

But did it work?
You know they'll be worth a fortune in a few years, don't you?

I doubt that it worked and yes I know they'll be worth a lot. But then, I used to have a picture disc copy of "Air Conditioning" by Curved Air too.