The murders in Ipswich appear to have spawned much discussion of how to deal with the issue of prostitution. What do you lot think is the way to handle it? Fully legalise it? (I understand that paying for sex in the UK is not illegal but solicitation and "'kerb' crawling are, although I don't really get the distinction.) Go after the prostitutes? Go after the punters? Go after both? Have sanctioned red light districts? Consider all prostitutes victims of [your choice] and "help" them get out? Something else entirely?

Discuss.

I think drug addiction is the biggest issue in this sad and horrible case.
The women needed money, and how they earned it comes secondary.
People who are addicted to heroin and crack - which seems to be what most of these women were in to - makes people so screwed up, that it is very hard to help them change their destructive lifestyles.
These poor women would still probably have worked outside any regulated system, because they were so addicted.

But certainly not all prostitues are heroin addicts (although yes, the Ipswich women all had addictions).

I'm thinking that a far greater percentage of streetwalkers (as opposed to those who work as escorts or in brothels) have addiction issues, how to handle them, then?

And prostitution in general?

My state introduced heavily regulated legal brothels about three years ago, along with legalising women working from home on their own. There was a big crack-down on street workers, who are less visible now but it still seems they are the ones getting attacked with no less frequency.

I guess I could look for some figures to back up my claims ...

I can't see anything coming out of any debate (in the UK) on this issue. We don't do radical things - though there is a bit of talk for a while, then things carry on as before.
Here is one woman's view.
It is such a difficult issue. Not just the heroin addicted women on the streets, but added to that are the thousands of trafficed women who end up in bad situations in western Europe. What to do with them? Send them home - grant them asylum? They are always going to be outside any regulated system too.
Short of sending drug addicted women away to rehab on a remote Scottish island for months at a time, I don't know what you can do.

Here were two other opinions in monday's paper.
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
Joan Smith

some men are prepared to pay for sex. some women are prepared to sell it. its always gonna be here. better to make it safer by legalising and regulating it than making it more illegal.

get rid of the leechers and scumbags who currently control it. deal with the drug issues (don't ask me how i havent a fucking clue) that sometimes bring vulnerable women into the industry.

give out vouchers to men on income support.*







*I'm joshing with u.

Over here prostitution is legal, you can join a union and there are health and safety regulations.
Does that help? Maybe a little, but there still is a lot wrong with the industry. Biggest issue: forced prostitution by kidnapped or lured women from african and eastern european countries.

They started a campaign asking Johns to call an anonymous "telltales" phonenumber about prostitutes who they thought were forced to work in the industry.
Apparently that works quite well, specially now the women are protected by law that they can stay in the country if they testify against their abusers.

But still, there's no such thing as a safe prostitute.

[font=Arial Black]Prostitution should never be made legal EVER, Every man in a relationship would have a excuse to go 24/7, Well it is legal dear, I felt a bit horny and you were at work so i went to the whorehouse for a hour no harm done.....

Yeah right. You must have a happy healthy relationship

Spex, that is absolute bullshit. It isn't the illegality that keeps men from going to prostitutes. In Germany, it's been decriminalized (it's legal, with some restrictions - soliciting and pimping are illegal, as far as I know), and there are men who go to prostitutes, and men who don't. Some men (or women, for that matter - there are prostitutes for women too) won't ever feel comfortable with paying for sex, and some prefer the straightforwardness of the relationship.

I'm with Nevski on this: it's not called "the world's oldest profession" for nothing. Criminalizing it doesn't make it go away; it just increases the potential for exploitation. Now, I'm not quite sure how exactly one can stop traficking and other exploitation, but it seems the Dutch model is a good start: unionization, health insurance, pensions, self-employment - and taxation, for that matter.

However, I recognize that there will always be a section of society that actually gets off on seamier aspects of prostitution: illicitness, exploitation, perhaps even the desperation of some of the people who practice it; the feeling that the john is "helping" some poor drug addict in some way. I have no answers on how to deal with people like that, who possibly have a disturbed sexuality - and perhaps the Ipswich ripper is one of these troubled souls.

Me too.

And, I hate to derail the discussion, but...


I think there is something here, but I can't put it together in my head. Any help would be aprreciated...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mondeo#Media_References



http://www.arcticmonkeys.com/sun_goes_down.html



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6121900136.html

Well Left, the Ford Mondeo is apparently a signifier for middle-class ordinariness in Britain. I do know that in Germany, the cliché of the average john picking up streetwalkers is a middle-class family man, driving a family car with child seats in the back. Not a scary sleazebag, but an ordinary married guy.

Aren't they the ones you have to watch out for? The unexpected sleazebag?

It's called the oldest profession for good reason. And I agree that legalising brothels might just make it all safer for all concerned. Would it ever get rid of the sleaziness though? Is that a problem?

Personally, I think the whole illicit substances thing is a bigger problem. It still amazes me how many young people under 17 go on about getting pissed in such an open fashion. And I don't care what anyone else thinks, that is the root cause of so many social ills. The 'why do so many want to do that?' question I mean.

I have a feeling that in your "better to make it safer by legalising and regulating it" could be an answer to the current drugs problem. I mean, Coleridge bought opium over the counter and Queen Victoria used cannabis to ease period pains. So why do people in society turn to drugs? Probably to ease their pain. Then some women need to turn tricks to buy drugs to pay for their habit which probably increases their pain which in turn . . . . . It's too fucking awful to think about sometimes. Like now with those 5 women slaughtered in Suffolk.

Pat yourself on the back for picking up on my implicit subtext. Of course, one would assume that a seasoned prostitute would have a sense of which clients were safe and which were wierdos (though if she were an addict, it's possible her powers of self-preservation may be clouded). And if we assume that most clients are ordinary guys, then the trappings of ordinariness (including a car generally seen to be a symbol of middle-class success) might lull her into feeling safe.

If the Ford Mondeo owner is, in fact, the murderer (or one of the murderers), then he's possibly someone for whom keeping up middle-class appearances is important. And I'll stop there, before I start going too far into the realm of conjecture and investigative profiling.

If the Ford Mondeo owner is, in fact, the murderer (or one of the murderers), then he's possibly someone for whom keeping up middle-class appearances is important. And I'll stop there, before I start going too far into the realm of conjecture and investigative profiling.
[/quote]

Isn't the Ford Mondeo a car driven by working class people?

I really think that the streetwalker situation is entirely different than the escort type on so many levels.

I can't imagine that more than a tiny fraction of streetwalkers (in the US and UK) are there by choice and not by dint of being desperate due to addiction or other circumstance. It's dangerous, it's risky, there are no safeguards in place, they are extremely, frighteningly vulnerable in every regard.

"Escorts", however, oftentimes have elaborate safety and verification practices (insist on gov't-issued photo ID, ref's from other pros(!), listed landline phone # and office phone) and are earning enough and are legitimate enough ($300 per hour +) to be able to afford to work in situations (i.e. hotels or suites with a receptioist) where they can have someone around as a deterrent. Most are utterly inflexible in regards to safer sex practices, and the more successful ones are authentically (or at least convincingly) doing it because they want to (even if just for the money), not because they have to. It's just not the same animal as giving a stranger in a dark car a quick eyeballing and hoping you'll live to get your $20 before you *really* need your next fix.

What kind of person *wants* to go to a streetwalker? I hardly think the eleemosynary comes into play--if that were the case, they'd just give them the money and skip the sex. It attracts folks for whom the desperation and the danger and power are part of the enjoyment. Yes, it's cheap, but you'd think anyone with a grain of human compassion would see the wretchedness of the situation and that it would adversely affect one's desire for a blowjob.

I have an acquaintance who is in a wholly sexless marriage (no sexual contact of any sort for almost three years). He has periodically gone the professional escort route because he really misses not just the sex but the lounging around with someone who'll touch him and be touched, and because having an actual affair with someone (and he easily could, he's pretty marketable) is, due to the emotional intimacy component, not desireable, because he does want to preserve his relationship with his wife (such as it is) and kids. (Yup, absolute poster boy for the middle class family guy.)

Why not legalize the escort stuff totally, have some sort of health registry (could be anonymous by number) and taxation, and use some of that tax money for programs to get the streetwalkers sorted (addiction treatment, family benefits etc.)? Make it illegal to buy off the street (but not to sell)? And grant asylum and protection to anyone trafficked who testifies against their traffickers? Still not perfect, but better than what we've got.

What kind of person *wants* to go to a streetwalker? I hardly think the eleemosynary comes into play--if that were the case, they'd just give them the money and skip the sex. It attracts folks for whom the desperation and the danger and power are part of the enjoyment. Yes, it's cheap, but you'd think anyone with a grain of human compassion would see the wretchedness of the situation and that it would adversely affect one's desire for a blowjob.

But that's the thing it ain't cheap. There have been a stack of interviews in the press with the girls who ply their trade in Ipswich, The going rate is £100 for a quick shag (bit more exspensive than taking a girl out on a date for a curry and a couple of drinks then getting the nock back), up to a grand for an overnight. Bloody hell. No I am not saying that £100 quid makes it look like a good career choice for some one from my background, but if you are faced with paying the rent and feeding your kids out of the £70 a week the government gives you too live on welll then, turning a few tricks a week looks like an attractive proposition----however I do see that some of these girls will then turn to drugs to numb the pain of what they are doing to themselves physically mentally and emotionally.

And I don't think that legalising the oldest profession will do any thing to safe guard the girls. There will always be Johns who do not want to be seen going into those types of establishments or have something to hide, there will be those who prefer the risk of picking up a girl off the street, And not all the girls will be comfortable with being licenced and taxed on their earnings. There may be some who want to work but will not pass medicals.

Oh I don't know this is argument for or against is way to complicated.

There will always be blokes (women) who will pay for it and there will always be someone willing to take their money in return.

I'm gonna guess that the additional £50 beyond the cost of the curry and a couple of drinks is what the guys are willing to shell out for the "guarantee" that the first £50 was money well spent. Not that I'm speaking from experience mind you...

£100 for off the street? Yikes. Different here.



Yeah, there will always be those who want to stay under the radar, legalized or not, but I think having a legal option would offer a safer alternative for those who want it.



Yeah...

Seriously, who has said that is the going rate in Ipswich? That sounds completely ridiculous - its Ipswich for fucks sake - these girls, even taking their habits into account, are hardly minted are there? Sorry, but I think thats bollocks.

I work really near Kings Cross and loads of people from work have seen "transactions" between pimps and clients (usually in McDonalds or Burger King) for less than a tenner.

I think the leagalization route is probably the best way to go.

However, there's no way that the vast majority of people in the UK are going to agree to using the prostitutes (or their) tax money on drug rehab and helping out asylum seekers.

The Scum press would have a field day.

BTW am i alone in my feelings of outrage towards the News of the Screws (world) in their hypocracy in offering a 25,000 pounds reward?

* where they offer you a feature on stockings and suspenders, next to a call for stiffer penalties for sex offenders*

Tim.

There's nothing wrong with stockings and suspenders.

You clearly have never tried wearing them.

Our lawmakers have such a tough time of this situation.

In Canada it is legal to buy and sell fucking but illiegal to keep or be found in a bawdy house.

They know that our countries prositutes face dangers that legislation could cure but anyone that champions this issue will be committing political suicide, not just for him/herself buy his or her Liberal-Conservative-New Democrat-Green-Bloc-party.

I like what George Carlin says, "Another women's issue, prostitution. I do not understand why prostitution is illegal. Why should prostitution be illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away. I can't follow the logic on that at all. Of all the things you can do to a person, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people. Civilian life, you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it."

We need a politician with the cojones to put prostitution and a shit-load of women's issues up for serious debate in this and your country and get specific ammendments to our Bills of rights for women's issues. Years ago our Prime Minister Trudeau was all set to champion Women's Issues - I am not sure which ones, but then had his 'walk in the snow' and decided to retire.

WOMEN ARE THE BACKBONE OF OUR SOCIAL FABRIC.

Women feed and clothe and clean and teach and care for the kids.
Women feed and clothe and clean and teach and care for the elderly.
Women feed and clothe and clean and teach and care for the men in their lives.
Women need true Pay Equity - The average woman earns a half to 2/3 a mans salary.
Women do the true cradle to grave jobs - they do our day care to our to our palliative care
Women do the majority of the real work it takes to run our lives.


Martha Ballard, a well-known eighteenth-century woman, wrote in her journal on Nov. 26, 1795, "A womans work is Never Done as ye Song Says, and happy Shee whos Strength holds out to the End..."

If we have serious protection in our laws for women, it starts with Pay Equity, maybe less would have to turn to the oldest profession and if they did, then at least they could do it with security.

thank you Toner for providing me the perfect new signature line.

I would call this essential viewing.

If Ann Widdicombe didn't exist, life in Britain would surely be poorer.

This will be toe-curling yet intriguing no doubt, the trailer looks good.

Why do men go to prostitutes? Many go because they cannot be with a women otherwise.They are insecure, not physically attractive or lack the social skills to be with a women. This is real and there is suffering on all sides.
Legalizing it , if done preperly would keep the creeps and predators out and the women would have access to health care and drug treatment.
The US is so far away from any of this. We cant discuss sex in a mature fashion.

Here's a couple of random thoughts.

Why do women go to prostitutes?

How would Rent Boys like working in a brothel?

Anne W. dont you just love her?


Matt W - shes no relation is she?

i do not love anne w.


that voice is so annoying. if i went to a prostitute that talked like her, they'd have to work for hours to earn their money.

i'd make my excuses and leave, but each to their own.

Good god no, it was enough having a grandmother NAMED mary whitehouse[i]





there's ways of keeping them quiet and earning their money at the same time .








i didn't even bother taking my coat off.

There is a section of society that actually needs licenced sex workers.

They need them because they cannot meet regular members of the opposite sex to indulge in carnal practices. They need them because 'normal' polite society flinches at the idea of these people having a sex life at all.

I am, of course, talking about the disabled.

Whilst I decry prostition to feed drug habits, hate prostitution where women have been kidnapped and forced into the sex trade, loath the scum that "own" prostitutes and profit from them, I do understand that there is a logical and compassionate requirement for some people - of both genders to be available for 'hire' to allow people with disabilities to feel the warmth of another human being, to allow them to be sexual beings, and not just a set of illnesses/malformations/conditions that define them.

I know that there will never be a day when there are licenced sex 'therapists' available to the disabled, but many of disabled people with whom I have become friends since my own condition has kicked in and ripped my life apart have all expressed the same sentiment that polite society finds the thought of disabled people distasteful and sometimes, morally wrong. I am now dead set against the word 'disabled', and prefer the term handicapped, like a golfer or other sportsman. I also now fully understand they people are generally the same (good/bad/bastards/saints and the female version of those terms if their gender is female) regardless of what the body has "wrong" with it.