What are the root causes of abortion?

Poverty

Low self-esteem

Contraception fails.

Social Conditioning

Drug abuse

Alcohol abuse

Lack of chastity

Promiscuity

Immorality

Naivety

Men

Sexual exploitation of women

Rape

Other

And

your

favorite

BB

Album

is

?

The root cause of abortion is pregnancy.

mary ., i appreciate your attempts at starting discussion, but how about looking around for some existing topics first?

Maybe Eric Kerouack should have been aborted.

[url]http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0701070087jan07,0,4728708.story
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The cause is recklessness.

But more to the point, abortion is genocide.

Hunting is countryside!

The Countryside Aliance can have that one for free.

False, that is not the definition of countryside.

I have to correct you there.

Yes, well done. I must congratulate you on your language skills and knowledge of vocabulary.

Obviously, you are trying desperately to provoke some kind of argument on a forum full of people you don't know, devoted to a topic irrelevant to the one you wish to discuss. Rather than go through all the tedious formalities of now asking you in which way you believe abortion to fit the definition of genocide I will skip to the bit where I call your ethical system laughable. As a geneticist with a particular interest in embryology, I consider anybody who equates a lump of cells -- some blind mechanical proteins and storage molecules floating in some water enclosed in some lipids -- with a human -- a personality created by memories and experiences, capable of thought, emotion and contemplating their own existence -- to have an opinion that is not quite laughable, more like positively worrying.

That concludes the argument. Feel free to continue to the next forum full of people you don't know, devoted to topics you're not interested in.

Good start, however, it can be argued that all humans are just a bunch of cells, in fact I can say that quite confidently. So reducing the unborn to just a lump of cells puts you in a position that all perpetrators of genocide find themselves in: dehumanising their victim's to justify killing them.

I refer the gentleman to my previous answer.

I think you don't have an answer to the point I made, and to think you were off to such a good start, too bad.

I guess you want me to address this:

“a personality created by memories and experiences, capable of thought, emotion and contemplating their own existence”.

Well the unborn are capable of these things, you were once unborn were you not?

Besides, can a newborn have these things, or a man in a temporary coma?

I expect he was. I certainly was. But I don't remember. Evidently I was unborn for around nine months and then my mum had me. Can't recall a single nano second of the whole 39 or so weeks. Not a one. Can't remember what I did, what I thought of where I was, or what I was doing and having asked a couple of people I find that I'm not alone in this so it's not a case of me being a forgetful old fart.

And I forgot all about the other night when I had too much to drink, but it doesn't mean I wasn't a person during that time.

No, because unlike a foetus you can live independently. Foetus's can't do that because they are not a person.

A foetus has the potential to become a person. But that is a different thing. Until that point a foetus is a part of, and not separate from the person in which it develops.

That is why that person, and that person alone has every right to decide the future of the foetus.

Can newborn children live independently?

Can a man receiving CPR live independently?

Can a man in a coma live independently?

Independence is not a criterion of personhood, look up the definition of person.

A newborn baby can breathe by itself. It has biological function independent of another being.

I have no idea what CPR or being in a coma has to do with this discussion.




note the definition does not include foetus.

Stop feeding the anti women trolls now boys - its like shooting snot in a barrell (I do love Leontien for that one!)

Where should I look it up?

Jimmy fuck off!

recklessness? genocide? thats probably one of the most fucking offensive things I have ever read on this forum!

Yes, so people do have unprotected sex! dumb I know but it happens! this does not mean that people should have to suffer the consequences for the rest of their lives. And yes, an unwanted child would be a consequence! It amazes me that pro-lifers are never around after the delivery to offer support to a woman who has had an unwanted child in her body for 9 months! and in the following years when that woman has to support and raise the child, where the fuck are you all then?

Do you consider rape, incest and child abuse to be recklessness?

How the hell can you compare abortion to genocide? Do you actually have any idea of what genocide is? genocide is a result of a pro-active decision to murder whole groups of people. Abortion is not usually a pro-active choice. It is usually a heart breaking decision made by people who have no other alternative. Dont say that people can get the child adopted. Have you any idea how hard it is to adopt or how full children homes are? And would you be able to grow "someone" in your body and give them away? by the way, im only saying someone because you seem to have a very romantic notion about foetuses!

And what of the pregnancies that would result in someone with very severe mental of physical disabilities? Are you going to be the one to dedicate your entire life to the care of another humanbeing?

And what of the women who's life is put at risk because of the pregnancy? Will you be the one to tell her family and friends, people she already has an established relationship with that she has died to "protect something that didnt even exist outside of her! Are you going to tell the child that its mother died so it could live! what a tremendous burden!

and the very fundamental thing about this for me is how the fuck dare you presume to have any sort of control over any elses body!! i wonder how you would feel if men could get pregnant!

and if anyone brings religion into this then I'll get really very pissed off indeed!

The point of bringing CPR into the debate is to show that there are people who cannot breathe on their own either, yet it doesn't stop them being people.

The definition doesn't include teenagers, but they are still people, because like it says, humans are people.





Nothing you have said there, challenges any of the points I have made, you have just tried to use an emotive argument to justify abortion. I reject your emotive comment.

Furthermore, I do not seek control over anyone, unlike you who seeks control of the unwanted unborn.

You cannot perform CPR on a zygote.

You clearly have a problem with understanding language.



You haven't made any points. Except that 'abortion is genocide' - which is not so much a point as an emotive use of language which shows an unbelievable lack of knowledge about history and the use of language and a distinct lack of empathy with your felow human beings which borders on the psychotic.

Can someone plaese explain why certain groups think that abortion is murder, yet feel free to kill/call fdor the death penalty for the doctors & nurses who practice abortion .... isn't that also murder ?

Most of them support the war in Iraq as well.

I do not believe those things are OK.



These are unsubstantiated claims.

ah. so only you are allowed to make unsubstantiated claims.

I wonder how many Republican election candidates are anti-war and pro choice?

Show my unsubstantiated claims.

Err... "abortion is genocide" for a start you idiot.

touche

ABORT, ABORT!

If only his parents had Nevski...

The only control I seek, as a woman, is over my own body and my own life.! It pisses me off intensely when other people feel they have the right to make decisions that will have an influence over another persons body or life!!!

I actually thought my comments were very unemotive! the reasons is really simple. What i choose to do with my own body is fuck all to do with you. and i certainly do not have to justify my feelings about abortion or resort to emotive statements!

You still havnt said in which way abortion is genocide!
If you went to Rwanda or Bosnia and said that I wonder how genocide survivors would feel. The wholesale mass murder of people with established lives, relationships, roles to play in their communities, fully aware of what is going to happen to them whilst witnessing their friends and familes being tortured and killed. The noise, the terror, the smell of death amd blood. So many limbs and bodies everywhere that you fall over them. the shouting, the screaming, the children crying. Children being torn from thier parents/guardians arms. children seeing their parents killed, children being forced to kill their siblings and parents- and on occasion, eat them! Parents seeing their children being torn from limb to limb. the utter chaos and confusion. And then, afterwards, the absoloute disbelief and hoplessness, wondering, how on earth do you carry on now? what do you do?

Abit different dont you think than a small medical prodedure carried out by professional people, in a calm safe, sanitised environment!

The claim was not contested until now.

gen·o·cide (jĕn'ə-sīd')
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

So not a foetus then... idiot.

Ah now I understand. Thankyou Jimmy for making that so clear! I can see now why you said abortion is genocide! Its exactly like that!

I think you're not taking this whole thing seriously enough.

Actually I'm worried.

When I sheath my John Thomas with a condom, am I ethnically cleansing my spermatozoa?

Well, the Pope would say so.

I have a feeling you are about to read about the "Black Holocaust" or a european version of the same anti-choice rhetoric.

I am sorry to sound like I'm on Jimmy's side, but I know quite a few antiwar activists who are anti-choice.

hooray for Portugal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6541143.stm

Sperm are not people.



A foetus, is a young human.




We agree!



No counter argument?



You don't think killing the unborn is influencing their lives?

Speak to abortion survivors and see what they have to say too.

Logically - according to your own argument - since a zygote is a human being a sperm is necessarily half a human being.

I only take your own absurd argument to its logical conclusion.



Are you seriously telling me that you believe zygotes and foetuses are an ethnic group?

"abortion survivors"? What does that mean?

Mr Blackitt: That's what being a Protestant's all about! That's why it's the church for me! That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual, and the individual's right to decide for him- or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in 1517, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, but… 400 years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas.
[He sniffs.]
Mr Blackitt: And, Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.
Mrs Blackitt: You what?
Mr Blackitt: French Ticklers! Black Mambos! Crocodile Ribs! Sheaths that are designed not only to protect, but also to enhance the stimulation of sexual congress.
Mrs Blackitt: Have you got one?
Mr Blackitt: Have I got one? Uh, well, no, but I can go down the road any time I want, and walk into Harry's and hold my head up high and say in a loud, steady voice, "Harry, I want you to sell me a condom. In fact, today, I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant."

There is no such thing as half a human being.

The ethnic group I'm referring to is the unwanted unborn.



People who have survived abortion.




Why do you cheer for abortion?

yeah all abortions happen to members who identify with each other, don't they.

dullard.

People who have survived abortion? So is this foetuses who have made a remarkable recovery, or what?

By your definition, Jimbo, the very fact of (potentially) belonging to the human race is what gives foetuses a common ethnicity. So that means we ALL share a common ethnicity, rendering the whole principle of ethnicity, and genocide, completely meaningless. Ethnicity is founded on completely different social and biological principles. Surely even you can see that this is a fundamentally fallacious argument. Of course, as I expect you're as mad as a box of frogs, just like that nutter on the other thread with the "superior brain", I doubt that you can see that at all.

This debate gets me down. The emotional, practical and judicial aspects of it all become tangled up and you end up with a bunch of nutters who think that God doesn't like pregnancies being aborted. They will also, in God's name, put people to death on the grounds that they ar in favour of abortion. God does not exist; God is a concept by which some humans measure their faith. Abortion is not against the law. The law is a concept which governs our lives.

In my view, abortion is absolutely essential in 21st century, as are other forms of birth control. 1) Over-population is a serious problem in most parts of the world. 2) There are millions of poor people who cannot afford to have children. 3) Without legal abortion, some unfortunate women would resort to "back street" abortion.

The kind of emotional nonsense I'm talking about is the claptrap that leads idiots to suggest that the "unwanted unborn" are an ethnic group. Here is an accepted definition of ethnicity:

"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common geneology or ancestry. (Smith 1987). Recognition by others as a distinct ethnic group is often a contributing factor to developing this bond of identification."

How can an embryo fall into that definition? You're spouting utter nonsense, pal. Get a grip. Grow up. Campaign for something sensible. (And before you suggest that just because some bloke called Smith (1987) defines it that way it doesn't mean it's right, remember that Smith (1987) has researched and thought about that definition, had it challenged by other intellectuals and has plenty of research, thought and debate behind her/him. S/he is not some bloke down the pub who shoots his mouth off with confidence but no authority.)

I also happen to think that, in the end, abortion is the woman's choice. I'm absolutely certain that the emotional, practical and judicial issues tied up in that simple statement are complex enough without religious maniacs (quite often men, for some reason) getting involved.

Still, you're in good company. George W. Bush thinks abortion is against God's will. So does the pope. They're both appalling reactionaries, disgusting examples of humanity.

Stands up and applauds Andy Larter!!