it wasn't just me then...

I thought my minced pies were playing up again.

I never claimed, this:

M'lud, on April 11th, at 2.24p.m., Jimmy wrote, and I quote, "The ethnic group I'm referring to is the unwanted unborn."

Now, he is trying to say that he didn't write this. I suggest that he did. With great malice aforethought. I also suggest that Jimmy is a great big bullshitter who needs to, as he himself said, read the whole argument from the beginning. Oh, yes, and think about it.

I still want to know why Jimmy won't respond to my posts.

Or, for the 95% of the people who mastrubate (and the other 5% that are liars):

I still want to know why Jimmy won't respond to my posts.

You said: "Abortion is genocide because zygotes and foetuses are an ethnic group..."

I said: "The ethnic group I'm referring to is the unwanted unborn"


They are two very different statements.

Jimmy -

So, despite its relevance you won't discuss the issue of mastrubation. I'll assume that means you are conceding that your earlier statement was ill-considered and that there is no basis for you to "not recommend" mastrubation. That being said, could we get back to this:

ahem

I knew you could do it!

Correct! I claim the unwanted unborn are the ethnic group that are subject to genocide, not all the unborn.

Er, ok. So you are saying:

"Abortion is genocide because unwanted zygotes and foetuses are an ethnic group.."

And this helps your argument how exactly?

Whether you talk about wanted or unwanted pregnancies, zygotes and foetuses in no way are an ethnic group by any accepted definition.

By the way - The unborn?

My grandchildren are unborn. Probably because my kids are much too young to even consider having them yet.

I don't think you mean what you think you mean.

Explain how they fail to fit the definition?


Your grandchildren are unborn if they are unborn, not if they do not exist.

The unwanted unborn are not an ethnic group. Ethnicity is determined by biological as well as social factors. There is not a sufficient biological commonality for the category you describe to be called an ethnic group. You might just as well say that homosexuality is an ethnicity, or in fact that women who have had abortions constitute an ethnicity. So your thesis that abortion equals genocide is fundamentally flawed.

What definition of ethnic group are you using?

Jimmy, just a question - why do you refer always to the "unwanted unborn"? how the fuck do you know they were unwanted?

How does a man in a coma know he is in a coma?

How would an unwanted born child know they were unwanted?

They don't know.

I really don't understand your statement Jimmy. In fact, you've misrepresented me as well as yourself. You said that unwanted unborn are an ethnic group. Therefore, because an unborn is still a foetus, a foetus is, according to you, an ethnic group. That is incorrect. Joaniecrumpet has explained that very clearly.

Next, the "unwanted" business. I have a shirt that I never wear because I don't like the colour. It is an "unwanted" shirt because I no longer want it. The shirt has no idea that it is unwanted because it is an inanimate object. However, it remains an unwanted shirt and I have today taken it from my wardrobe.

Now, it is possible for a member of a group, a person, to no longer fit in with the rest of the group: in other words, the status of "unwantedness" does not apply only to inanimate objects. The unfortunate person is told not to bother the group again: he is "unwanted" in their presence. He is an "unwanted" person. The "unwanted" status is nothing to do with the person who is not wanted. The decision regarding his status was one made by others.

The unwanted unborn are not wanted by their mothers. They don't know that they are unwanted but that does not affect their status of being unwanted.

Finally, Jimmy, how does an unborn's unwantedness make their abortion immoral? On the contrary, I think the unwantedness makes the abortion necessary.

She has done nothing of the sort, she has not even shown which definition of ethnic group she uses to substantiate the claim. Her attempt is poor.




We are talking about humans.



Stay with us, we are talking about humans.



What are you saying here?




For the same reason killing unwanted Jews was wrong in WW2.

You see, now I think you're a prat. I'm not going to bother any more. It makes me too frustrated. You're just automatically gainsaying everything that I or anyone else says. Worse, you're denying that you said things you clearly did and also denying that counter arguments, very well written counter arguments, don't exist. I can't do with that.

Substantiate this claim.

That is what you claim, but I'm not sure everyone agrees with you as to whether we are talking about humans. This is why I asked and continue to ask this:



And this:

Definitions of ethnicity

from Answers.com:
"Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia."

from the Free Online Dictionary:

"ethnicity - an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties"

from Wikipedia:

"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987)."

No Jimmy.

You are talking about humans.

The rest of us do not acept your definition.

And that fact that you have to invoke the Holocaust to justify your argument just shows how weak it is. Because it doesn't stand on its own merits. An invocation of Godwin's Law if ever I saw one. Offensive too.

Besides you are not arguing. You have made no case -you just contradict others.

You can say aborted zygotes and foetuses are an ethnic group until you are blue in the face but it doesn't make it so. You provide no evidence whatsoever for your position, which suggests you don't have any.

An argument isn't just contradiction. Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

It's behind you !!

no it isn't

Oh Yes it is

Does a bloke wearing a dress sing 'Mother Kelly's Doorstep' at this point ?

No.

Carol Cleveland asks if you'd like a blowjob.

I agree with those definitions, so what is your problem now?






What species are the unborn humans, if they are not humans?





What species are the unborn humans, if they are not humans?

What species are sperm if not human?

time for being-hit-on-the-head lessons.

Time for everyone to stop feeding the trolls I expect...

If you agree with those definitions, explain how the "unwanted unborn" share a common race, genealogy, ancestry or heritage?

Ethnicity isn't just about people having a common experience. There have to be biological commonalities as well. I could convert to Judaism tomorrow, but I wouldn't be an ethnic Jew. Ethnically, I'd still be of Sicilian/Irish heritage, though I might identify with others of my new religion. So I might be part of a community, but this does not qualify as an ethnicity.

Your unborn foetuses of diverse heritages, cultures and genealogies are not an ethnic group. They cannot, therefore, be subject to genocide.

They are human.





Wrong, according to your interpretation, killing all black people would not be genocide.

So then you DO think masturbation is a form of abortion...



...Oh, right, you DON'T think masturbation is a form of abortion.

Would you consider mastrubation a form of genocide as well?

correct. It would be genocides.

plural.

"Wrong, according to your interpretation, killing all black people would not be genocide."

Well, according to the 1948 convention on genocide, it is defined as:

"...acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group..."

So "killing all black people" is not, in fact, genocide. For it to be genocide, all the black people in question would have to come from the same national, ethnical, racial or religious group. And the blanket term "black" does not imply this at all.

Unborn foetuses do not all come from one national, ethnical, racial or religious group either. So abortion is not genocide.

Just to clarify I agree with JC.

But killing all black people would mean killing all of many different ethnic groups. Hence genocides.

Quite what Jimmy thinks this has to do with his argument is beyond me.

Then abortion is genocides.



Killing all black people is not genocide?

Are you serious?



No.

Why not?

They are only an extension of us and our DNA, that type of destruction doesn't kill me or an individual.

No.

Abortion is abortion.

Genocide is genocide.

Never the twain shall meet.

Am I serious? According to the definition of genocide, yes. As Rob says, killing all black people might constitute a number of genocides.

But this is a red herring. The point is that, using the definitions provided, foetuses from a variety of cultural backgrounds do not constitute an ethnicity, and abortion is not genocide.

Now, are you going to provide a valid argument to the contrary, or just continue to blow hot air out your arse?

It kills a potential individual. Not unlike menstruation kills a potential individual. Are periods genocide?

Jimmy Shoots Blanks

[quote name='barmyrob' post='211049' date='Apr 18 2007, 08:30 PM']
[quote name='Jimmy' post='211038' date='Apr 18 2007, 07:54 PM']
Then abortion is genocides.
[/quote]

No.

Abortion is abortion.

Genocide is genocide.

Never the twain shall meet.
[/quote]

Is that suppose to be a powerful argument?

Not good.

[quote name='joaniecrumpet' post='211051' date='Apr 18 2007, 08:39 PM']
Am I serious? According to the definition of genocide, yes. As Rob says, killing all black people might constitute a number of genocides.

But this is a red herring. The point is that, using the definitions provided, foetuses from a variety of cultural backgrounds do not constitute an ethnicity, and abortion is not genocide.

Now, are you going to provide a valid argument to the contrary, or just continue to blow hot air out your arse?
[/quote]


You reject the definition of ethnicity now?

What else are you going to reject?



[quote name='Zippy' post='211070' date='Apr 18 2007, 10:10 PM']
Jimmy Shoots Blanks
[/quote]


I don't think I'm up against the greatest minds here.

Your defence is abysmal.

[quote name='LeftintheUS' post='211055' date='Apr 18 2007, 09:09 PM']
[quote name='Jimmy' post='211046' date='Apr 18 2007, 12:27 PM']
[quote name='LeftintheUS' post='211039' date='Apr 18 2007, 08:07 PM']
[quote name='Jimmy' post='211038' date='Apr 18 2007, 11:54 AM']
[quote name='LeftintheUS' post='211030' date='Apr 18 2007, 07:05 PM']
[quote name='Jimmy' post='211027' date='Apr 18 2007, 10:35 AM']
[quote name='LeftintheUS' post='211018' date='Apr 18 2007, 04:23 PM']
[quote name='Jimmy' post='211015' date='Apr 18 2007, 07:25 AM']
What species are the unborn humans, if they are not humans?
[/quote]
What species are sperm if not human?
[/quote]

They are human.
[/quote]
Would you consider mastrubation a form of genocide as well?
[/quote]

No.
[/quote]
Why not?
[/quote]

They are only an extension of us and our DNA, that type of destruction doesn't kill me or an individual.
[/quote]
It kills a potential individual. Not unlike menstruation kills a potential individual. Are periods genocide?
[/quote]

Like I said:

They are only an extension of us and our DNA.

Anyone want to take bets on how long the "quote" function will end up getting in Jimmy's posts?

Also, I just wanted to say again how much I love Joe.
Clear writing style, cogent arguments, brilliant mind, and funny to boot.

Left, I know that "5% are liars" is a well-worn joke but really some people don't. Of course, they are pretty much repressed, twisted, mentally disturbed wackos, but that doesn't make such a neat soundbite.

How has this comment actually benefited the debate?

Your comment is pointless.

Debate? There's a debate here? Where?