Could war against Lebanon go into all out war? Hot potato catch!!

Its clear that isreal has shot itself in the foot by going all gung ho for hezbollah and it peashooter ww2 Katyusha rockets and its collective military punishment of civilians in Lebanon and Gaza. they have forgot why they pull out of lebanon because hezbollah hit them back and Israel got stuck in the Lebanese quagmire for 18 years, and in the end barely escaped.history 101 what makes me laugh is the dammands of israel for lebanon to compile with UN resolutions in the sotuh of lebanon when it israel does the most flagrant violations of the very same international humanitarian laws and UN resolutions.

http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

http://www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah...niajlouni1.html

Told by the israeli to evacuate their villages and homes................but were bombed from the sky with US/UK paid, made and supplied Israeli jets and ammo as they fled for safety, not fully knowing that they were a targeted for death.

On Saturday, Israeli warplanes targeted a van packed with people fleeing the southern village of Marwaheen, killing 15 and seriously injuring six. "The villagers were divided about what to do," recalled United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) spokesman Richard Morzynski. "One group decided to drive directly to Tyre and were hit by an Israeli missile." UNIFIL says it is helping evacuate villagers whose lives are in danger.

War is a tragedy on both sides and it always the innocent civilians who end up suffering the most.
Click to view attachment


There is right and wrong on both sides, there are unjustified and callous actions on both sides.No side in this conflict holds any moral highground with regard to the deaths of innocent children.

Even though i totally condemn Israel's willfull and reckless neglect for human life (and the loss of innocent life) in this latest outbreak of violence.They are being attacked by a Terrorist organisation which is being sponsored by two rougue states.Hezbollah base themselves right amonst their civilain population for protection and cover.I would personally do everything in my power to avoid these civilan deaths and would show more restaint.


PS...Isn't it strange how The Jews were hated and discriminated against by ther Far-Right for many decades.Now it is the Far-Left who hate and discriminate against them.Some of Israel's actions may be totally wrong and unjustifiable,but until the Left condeme the other side for their wrong and unjustifiable actions as much as they criticise and condeme Israel.That accusation of discrimination is unavoidable.The Left never see or try to understand the situation the state of Israel is in,by totally rebuke the state of israel for not trying to understand the situation Palastine and Lebonan are in.That is unconsistant and biased.

As i said before, both sides have not only the blood of their enermies on their hands,but also the blood of their own innocent civilians.

WHATS THE SOLLUTION?????How can this be resolved?????

Bollocks.

The far left do NOT hate and discriminate against JEWS. The far left, like me and a significant number of Jews in Israel as well as the rest of the world, are sickened by the behaviour of the Israeli military and political leadership. If we were to folow the logic of these wackos then clearly the answer to the troubles in NI was to fly low over Belfast and bomb the neighbourhoods in which Provos and Loyalists lived. The thing that worked best was negotiation. It worked in palestine too. But nutters on every side could see their own personal little powerbases coming under threat.

Invading Iraq has been an unmitigated disaster. The intervention in Afghanistan was a short lived success which is now rapidly turning into a complete shambles. This current attack by Israel is designed to provoke Syria and Iran. The crazed fuckers that run that country fully expect the US to run to their aid if and when the shit hits the fan. I don't believe that a single Jew in his or her right mind wants what is happening but their leaders cannot or will not find another way to behave toward their neighbours.

The most interesting thing I've read about Israel of late, was by Karen Armstrong who points out that it owes its existence to the determination of a small group of jews determined to reject the teachings of orthodoxy and achieve a homeland for jews in Palestine never mind the cost. Killing British soldiers in terrorist attacks seemed to do the trick and we must conclude that this philosphy is as strong today as it was back in the 40s.

The situation can only be resolved once the arabs around and within Israel accept that it isn't going to go away whilst at the same time the people of Israel reject the kind of politicians and military leaders who believe that in all cases attack is the bets form of defence. It is also important to recognise that to expect Iran and Syria to stop funding Hamas and Hezbollah is about as sensible as expecting the US to stop supporting Israel to the tune of ten million dollars a week.

Martyn,everytime you (and The Left) say you are sickened by the behaviour of Israel,but keep refusing to say you are also sickened by the actions of the Palastinian and Lebonese terrorists on the other side.The assumption that you are biased and discriminatory against 'The Jews' will always be there.

Just my bit: I think Israel is behaving in a disgusting maner, and it's tactics are appalling.
But could they work?
They seem 'quite happy' to kill, maybe a couple of thousand Lebanese to defeat Hezbollah.
Trying to kill the actual Hezbollah fighters is too hard, and they think it's better to just drop bombs all over the place. Killing Canadian citizens like they have done, or anyone else, helps their strategy of defeating Hezbollah, without having to defeat it on the battlefield.
When you see Israeli spokespeople on the TV, don't belive a word they say about not targeting civilians.

Hezbollah are macho men with the minds of children. So are Hamas.

BUT are they ALSO acting in a disgusting manner,and are their tactics also appauling?? Do you believe a word they say about not targeting civilians?

You can't describe one side of the war as Macho men and the other side as disgusting if they are employing the same tactics. If you do so,you run the risk of faling into the trap of bias and discrimination.As well as the trap of symapthetic leanings for one set of killers over another,based entirley on 'cause'.Rather than whats moraly right and wrong.

Nevermind.

KLF. Your reply to Damon's post illustrates perectly why it is that so many members find it deeply frustrating having any kind of dialogue with you.

Damon was being sarcastic. He was mocking the peopel who take up arms for Hamas and Hezbollah.
He was in fact agreeing with your assesment of these people as disgusting, which indeed many of them are. However you cannot get away from the fact that Palestinians elected Hamas because that organisation did more for them educationally, and in terms of healthcare, jobs and security than the PLO or any previous polictical movement had ever done.

After my post in this thread last night I woke to this articel in the Register Guard by William Pfaff. I couldn't have put it better myself.



We cannot do otherwise than abhor the violence and bestial behaviour, those responsible on the Palestinian side are fighting a losing battle which will ultimately end in failure. The same however applies to Israel, which despite it's rich benefactor must either accept a situation in which it negotiates with all it's neighbours and makes necessary concesions to many or all of them or come to terms with an existence based on perpetual war, retaliation and retribution which is also ultimately futile.

That's from the BBC News Pages..

It strikes me as reminiscent of words spoken by SS and Wermacht officers to villagers suspected of harbouring resistence fighters in WWII. It's an overt declaration of criminality and cannot possibly be justified in any case.

It was a complete anti-American and anti- Israeli article.The writer sympathises (if not glorifies) in terorist action against his ideological foe's.He thrives in the defeat of this ideologiocal enemies at the hands of terorist organisations and revels in the rise of unstable regimes that are intent of challenging the US and Israel.

I took from the whole piece that it would be a better world if the US and other countries learned lessons from the past and negotiated rather than killed their way to a solution to foreign affairs difficulties. I get no impression of glorification. I get only a sense of his despair at the seemingly endless rounds of futile attacks and counter attacks from people who appear to be devoid of any imagination or conscience.

But to address your first comment, I've now decided that were I to be as well informed about the middle east's history of conflict and tragedy I might well have written a better article.

Lebanon / Gaza Emergency Demonstration

Saturday 22nd July 2006

assemble 12 noon, Embankmemt

The Israeli assault on innocent civilians across Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank continues unabated. The G8 have effectively given them the green light to continue this massacre of the innocent, whilst both the media and western governments reach new heights of hypocrisy.

We urge all Respect members and supporters who can to come to the London demonstration on Saturday to demand that Israel gets out of Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank now. Details of the demonstration will follow shortly.

* Hands Off Lebanon
* Freedom for Palestine
* Don't Attack Syria
* Don't Attack Iran

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/documents/22DemoLeaf.pdf -- Demo leaflets

Along with Israel.Why not add Hamas and Hezbollah to the list of organisation who are perpatraiting war and who should be stopped?? Or don't The Stop The War coalition want those organisations to stop WAR as well? Groups like STWC and Respect are in serious danger of becoming mearly far left groups based entirely along political and religious loyalties,rather than peaceful organisations genuinely trying to stop all violence and war from whatever side.It seems they only want to stop war against Muslims or stop America and Israel.Why not be honest and call it The Stop Any Action By America/UK/Israel coalition.They don't seem intersted in stopping or condemning any war or terror perpetraited by anyone else.

Amnesty international fell into that trap a few years ago,and became too political and to intent on bashing the US and Israel rather than being unbiased and even handed.I'm glad to see that they have turned this around somewhat recently and are once again doing what they do best.Fighting injustice and persecution everywhere,rather than just being a politcal mouthpiece for the far Left.

What I am watching in Lebanon each day is an outrage
By Robert Fisk
Jul 18, 2006 -
The beautiful viaduct that soars over the mountainside here has become a "terrorist" target. The Israelis attacked the international highway from Beirut to Damascus just after dawn yesterday and dropped a bomb clean through the central span of the Italian-built bridge - a symbol of Lebanon's co-operation with the European Union - sending concrete crashing hundreds of feet down into the valley beneath. It was the pride of the murdered ex-prime minister Rafik Hariri, the face of a new, emergent Lebanon.

And now it is a "terrorist" target. So I drove gingerly along the old mountain road towards the Bekaa yesterday - the Israeli jets were hissing through the sky above me - turned the corner once I rejoined the highway, and found a 50ft crater with an old woman climbing wearily down the side on her hands and knees, trying to reach her home in the valley that glimmered to the east.

This too had become a "terrorist" target. It is now the same all over Lebanon. In the southern suburbs – where the Hizbollah, captors of the two missing Israeli soldiers, have their headquarters - a massive bomb had blasted off the sides of apartment blocks next to a church, splintering windows and crashing balconies down on to parked cars. This too had become a "terrorist" target.

One man was brought out shrieking with pain, covered in blood. Another "terrorist" target. All the way to the airport were broken bridges, holed roads. All these were "terrorist" targets. At the airport, tongues of fire blossomed into the sky from aircraft fuel storage tanks, darkening west Beirut. These too were now "terrorist" targets. At Jiyeh, the Israelis attacked the power station.

This too was a "terrorist" target. Yet when I drove to the actual headquarters of the Hizbollah, a tall building in Haret Hreik, it was totally undamaged. Only last night did the Israelis manage to hit it. So can the Lebanese be forgiven - can anyone here be forgiven – for believing that the Israelis have a greater interest in destroying Lebanon than they do in their two soldiers? No wonder Middle East Airlines, the national Lebanese airline, put crews into its four stranded Airbuses at Beirut airport early yesterday and sneaked them out of the country for Amman before the Israelis realised they were under power and leaving.

European politicians have talked about Israel's "disproportionate" response to Wednesday's capture of its soldiers. They are wrong. What I am now watching in Lebanon each day is an outrage. How can there be any excuse - any - for the 73 dead Lebanese civilians blown apart these past three days? The same applies, of course, to the four Israeli civilians killed by Hizbollah rockets. But - please note - the exchange rate of Israeli civilian lives to Lebanese civilian lives now stands at one to more than 15.

This does not include two children atomised in their home in Dweir on Thursday whose bodies cannot be found. Their six brothers and sisters were buried yesterday, with their mother and father. Another "terrorist" target. So was a neighbouring family with five children who were also buried yesterday. Another “terrorist" target. Terrorist, terrorist, terrorist. There is something perverse about all this, the slaughter and the massive destruction and the self-righteous, constant, cancerous use of the word "terrorist".

No, let us not forget that the Hizbollah broke international law, crossed the Israeli border, killed three Israeli soldiers, captured two others and dragged them back through the border fence. It was an act of calculated ruthlessness that should never allow Hizbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, to grin so broadly at his press conference. It has brought unparalleled tragedy to countless innocents in Lebanon.

And of course, it has led Hizbollah to fire at least 170 Katyusha rockets into Israel. But what would happen if the powerless Lebanese government had unleashed air attacks across Israel the last time Israel's troops crossed into Lebanon? What if the Lebanese air force then killed 73 Israeli civilians in bombing raids in Ashkelon, Tel Aviv and Israeli West Jerusalem? What if a Lebanese fighter aircraft bombed Ben Gurion airport? What if a Lebanese plane destroyed 26 road bridges across Israel? Would it not be called "terrorism"? I rather think it would.

But if Israel was the victim, it would probably also be World War Three. Of course, Lebanon cannot attack Tel Aviv. Its air force comprises three ancient Hawker Hunters and an equally ancient fleet of Vietnam-era Huey helicopters. Syria, however, has missiles that can reach Tel Aviv. So Syria - which Israel rightly believes to be behind Wednesday's Hizbollah attack - is not going to be bombed. It is Lebanon which must be punished. The Israeli leadership intends to "break" the Hizbollah and destroy its "terrorist cancer".

Really? Do the Israelis really believe they can "break" one of the toughest guerrilla armies in the world? And how? There are real issues here. Under UN Security Council Resolution 1559- the same resolution that got the Syrian army out of Lebanon - the Shia Muslim Hizbollah should have been disarmed. They were not because, if the Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora, had tried to do so, the Lebanese army would have had to fight them and the army would almost certainly have broken apart because most Lebanese soldiers are Shia Muslims.

We could see the restarting of the civil war in Lebanon - a fact which Nasrallah is cynically aware of – but attempts by Siniora and his cabinet colleagues to find a new role for Hizbollah, which has a minister in the government (he is Minister of Labour) foundered. And the greatest danger now is that the Lebanese government will collapse and be replaced by a pro-Syrian government which could reinvite the Syrians back into the country.

So there's a real conundrum to be solved. But it's not going to succeed with the mass bombing of the country by Israel. Nor the obsession with terrorists, terrorists, terrorists

At the very least it is extremely distasteful to compare Israel with Nazi Germany, I consider the crimes of the nazi's to be unique in human history.

Anti semitism is the worlds longest and deepest prejudice and after the holocaust, what would we have done settled back into the societies which had just tried to destroy us?

Isreal only gained the occupied territories after being attack by it's neighbours in an attempt to destroy it and has started the process of pulling out with its recent withdrawls.

A two state solution with viable borders for a Palestinian state and recognition of Israel's right to exist is the only realistic way forward. I'm sure the roadmaps will be out again eventually. Sadly sometimes steps backwards are taken like this conflict now.

What always dissapoints me about the ultra left position is it's default support the dictator/terrorist stance over the representative democracy/mixed economy.

oh fuck off and get a history text book that more dates than 19th and 20th century western europe



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3742365.stm

http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/selam.htm


one good thing

"But it's Israel!" Fox News crew shot at by Israeli troops

FOX News reporter David Lee Miller was shot at by Israeli troops while reporting from Gaza.

Video, FOX News, 14 July 2006
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4998.shtml

David Lee Miller: "In all likelyhood that was probably Israeli fire, we were very very close to their position..."

What the Israelis have essentially done is cut Gaza in half... All traffic has stopped in this one location... This is central Gaza...the area is deserted. The Palestinians know not to go any further, there are barriers set up. We went as close as we felt we could to illustrate what was taking place here without endangering ourselves "

Dumb: "I just don't understand, it says PRESS, it's the color, it's international..."

& Dumber: "Bad guys shoot at anything!"

Dumb: "Right, but it's Israel?!"

Dumbette: "Eeeh, but...it's also...if...if...correct, we don't know who exactly was shooting at 'em..."

Serves THEM right!

A Nazi by any other name

Oh dear F**k off I am told to, I don't believe I've ever told any one to F**k off on this board, I try to be polite and to the point, but then again I post under my real name and don't style myself with the handle of a murderer. What's your real name?

Mick.You must realise that Lee H O is an Anti-Western Anti-Jewish one-man propoganda machine.His only aim is to promote his own Islamic way of life and show solidarity to those that share that way of life.End Of ! He's rapped that one-tracked ambition into a left-wing ideology,and now you're seeing the result ,as he entrenches himself deeper and deeper along strict religious and ethic loyalties.Common sense ,perspective,and reason are becoming less and less important to him,as he constantly seeks to justify his own biased and prejudiced opinions of the non-muslim world,by linking propaganda from those who share the same bias as himself.

Even though I think Israel is commiting a war crime in Lebanon right now, I listened to Shimon Peres on Newsnight a couple of nights ago, and thought he had a fair argument.
Israel cannot have a force like Hezbollah in charge of southern Labanon, (he said). A country cannot have a militia that is stronger than the central government controling a volatile border. All those missiles have come into the country from Syria and Iran who were intent on causing this kind of situation.
The US is behaving very badly in allowing Israel this free hand.
Condi Rice is horrible.

Here is a cool headed view of the situation.

you were not told to "fuck off" it was "oh fuck off" now can you tell me the difference in the context and semantics of its use? obviously not, it was in the seer disbelieve at your statement. yeah, yeah LHO killed kennedy



LOL OMG you are such a richard. all this from the guy whose arguments and points on every subject are repeatedly rinced dismantled on BB forum and then has the never to come back for more.

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpap...06_011_walt.pdf

Jon Stewart on Lebanon Coverage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuj9BrCIyvw...&page=1&t=t&f=b

No Mick's right. The constant comparison that people on the left nowadays make with Israel and the Nazis is really dumb and shows a shocking lack of knowledge of 20th century history. Its funny how its always Israel that gets compared to Nazi Germany isnt it?

Im a Jewish person who considers himself left wing and has always supported the 2 state solution and recognized that the Palestinian people have been oppressed under the occupation - but I feel let down by the hysterical approach of a lot of people on the left nowadays towards this subject. Particularly the constant comparisons with Nazi Germany.

Aurturo -

I don't see many on the left make that comparison. I agree it is a dumb comparison. When the Palestinian death toll at the hands of the Israelis reaches 6 million, I'll reconsider my view. In fact, I'd say it has yet to reach the level of the British in India, not that I think the the situation in Israel since oh, I don't know, maybe 1967, is acceptable.

I think most on the left would simply like to see an end to the violence on both sides. I think Clinton was close to brokering an agreement, but of course Arafat shot it down. All that being said, what the Israeli army is doing now is totally unacceptable, and the current US policy of taking a hands off is absolutely inhumane. I can't help but thinking of W's great concern over 4,000 blastocysts -- says Bush, "I think it’s important to promote a culture of life…A society where every being counts, every person matters." Yet, he sits idly by while civilians by.

the comparisons with Nazi Germany is if the hat fit wear it and it came about from jews too deep in israel

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000792.shtml#000792

Consider the comments of Ariel Sharon's spokesperson, Ranaan Gissin, at a 2002 press conference. He was asked about revelations reported in a Jan. 25, 2002, article, "At the Gates of Yassergrad" by Amir Oren, who writes for Haaretz. An Israeli officer had admitted that Israeli soldiers were studying methods used by German Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article...87865#660411610

Someone please try and justify this for me. KLF?




Cheers, Andy.

Here is the response from Pax Christi, the Catholic Peace Movement group. I'm off for an emergency Women In Black march.

July 21, 2006 Pax Christi USA
Rapid Response Network
Pax Christi Statement on the recent attacks in the Middle East


Pax Christi USA, the national Catholic peace movement, calls for an immediate ceasefire to the conflict that undermines the efforts at true peace for the people of Lebanon, Palestine and Israel. Pax Christi USA strongly condemns the Hezbollah attacks targeting Israeli civilians and the illegal, unjustified and disproportionate use of force by Israel against the people of Lebanon and Gaza. The intentional targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure is unconscionable and a flagrant violation by Israel of the Geneva Conventions. We urge the Israeli government to immediately cease military action against the people of Lebanon and Gaza and to commit to finding a diplomatic solution which leads to peace. We urge Hezbollah to immediately cease its cross-border attacks and to release captured Israeli soldiers.

Our prayers are with the people of Lebanon, Palestine, and Israel as they suffer through the violence and uncertainty of air strikes and rocket fire. We pray in a special way for the Palestinian victims whose long suffering has too often been ignored by both the U.S. government and media. We mourn for the hundreds of people who have died in Lebanon, almost all of whom were civilians, and the hundreds of thousands who have been displaced from their homes. The directed attacks by the Israeli military on residential areas, power stations, and water facilities amount to collective punishment on the entire Lebanese population. Collective punishment has been consistently condemned by every major faith tradition as well as the Geneva Conventions. Furthermore, the actions of the Israeli government risk recent advances to free Lebanon from outside domination and threaten the fragile democracy of a nation healing from years of sectarian divisions.

We urge the international community, through the proper authority of the United Nations, to negotiate an immediate cease-fire and to pressure all parties for a just and lasting resolution to the longstanding violence and injustice in the region. We call on the UN to hold Israel accountable for the purposeful destruction of necessary civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza, a clear violation of international law. We urge the international community to immediately ascertain the resources necessary to ensure that all civilians who have suffered from the recent attacks have access to food, water and medical supplies.

Finally, Pax Christi USA condemns the Bush Administration’s support of the Israeli response to the Hezbollah attacks. The Administration’s obstructionist postures at both the United Nations and the G-8 summit led to a delay in the international community’s response to the situation and an unequivocal call for a cease-fire. Pax Christi USA calls on the Bush Administration to immediately stop the military support which is being used by Israel in its attacks on civilians in Lebanon and Gaza. As U.S. citizens, we cannot stand idly by while weapons made on U.S. soil are used by the Israeli military to target civilians and destroy the infrastructure which underpins the stability of their society.

I dont disagree with anything you say here about Lebanon. I think there should be a ceasefire as soon as possible and the Israeli action seems to me senseless. I dont believe they will succeed in halting Hizbollah at all. And I detest the civilian deaths. (Id just add though that Hizbollah were firing rockets into northern Israel long before this current conflict began.)

Unfortunately in England and europe generally the left is constantly comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. - Not least on this website. Its ignorant - and even Jews who are fervently antizionist and want Israel to disappear (of which Im not one) - get pissed off by it and wonder at the subtext.

So jew in israel can comparing Israeli policy towards the palestinians to Nazi Germany but the rest of us who dare to enter this discourse we are ignorant and have a anti semitic subtext? http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/content.php?pg=11

I'd say that the Jew in Israel stating this would be equally ignorant. A comparison with Apartheid-era South Africa might hold up, but the Nazi one doesn't at all. The most basic similarities between National Socialist Germany and modern Israel simply do not exist - in modern Israel, there is no totalitarian state, no explicit racial supremacist ideology, no mass internment policies and no industrial-scale murder of "undesirable" groups.

While the current situation in Palestine and Lebanon is extremely bad, putting Israel on the same level as Nazi Germany can only have a very distinct political meaning, which is very unsettling given the historical background. The fact that these Nazi comparisons are generally only made against Israeli occupation policies, and not against those of other countries (eg. Russia in Chechnya), underlines this.

I think Jews have a right to wonder about people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. It is (in my opinion) a nasty brutal country, but it is not to blame for everything, and I can understand why Israelis might think they have been forced to be so ruthless.

It could be argued that when the Palestinians were ethnicly cleansed in 1948, that that should perhaps have been the end of it. Tough, but that's the way things can go.
Poland had been shifted a hundred miles westward a few years before, and all the Germans were pushed out. The Germans of Czechoslovakia were also forced out after the war. They just had to make new lives in Germany. Couldn't the dispossed Palestinians have been absorbed into the sorounding countries, instead of being left to fester in refuge camps?
This is just a casual thought of mine not, a strong opinion. But I can understand why Israel has been so reluctant to hand back the whole of the west bank. Tel Aviv would definately be in rocket range.

About what LeftintheUS said about Arafat shooting down the peace deal. I might be wrong, but did it get much further than Robert Fisk describes in this article? (In the second half of the peice). I remember he was never impressed at what Israel had on offer. It would be more of a carved up Bantustan than a proper country, was I think, his opinion.
This article seems to confirm that was Sharon's intention.

On the basis of those maps alone I find it incredible that some idio...err people can't seem to understand why the Palestinians are pissed off to the point that they would take certain unsavoury measures to try and reclaim, at least some, of what is rightfully theirs. Considering that the reason why the Jews have infested Palestine is a bullshit one.

Cheers, Andy.

The classic type of rhetoric that has let the left down in recent years over this issue. If I spoke of blacks or asians "infesting" an area in london youd quite rightly shoot me down in flames.

The idea of zionism was created (and subsequently the state of Israel) because of 'bullshit' attitudes like yours. ie thousands of years of (largely Christian) anti semitism.

I understand why the Palestinians are pissed off but your hysteria helps noone.

not only the left but many others, i think one has to make a clear delineation between zionism and judaism.

Zionism and Judaism: The Paradox of National Liberation http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/events_online/zionism.html
a lecture by Michael Walzer, author of Just and Unjust Wars and many other books, and a professor at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, presented this lecture at HDS as the first in a series on Religion, Culture, and Society to celebrate Andover-Harvard Theological Library.


http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judai...not_zionism.cfm

You would be rightly shot down in flames because the analogy you choose is in no way related. There are significant differences between blacks and Asians settling in an area of London and what the Jews have done in Palestine. Black and Asian people come to Britain and (mostly) contribute to, and become part of, our society. The Jews have systematically set out to rule the whole of Palestine with the kind of brutality they themselves suffered at the hands of (eg) Nazi Germany.



Zionism (at least in it current form) was created by manipulative, opportunistic and greedy Jews who capitalised on British govermental anti semetism (they just wanted them out of their hair) and coerced them into giving the Jews land (areas in Palestine) that they had no moral or legal right to give. Ever since then, the state of Israel has bullied, murdered, tortured, raped, starved and impoverished the Palestinians. From the outset (of the imposition of a state of Israel) they worked to change the population balance in their favour by using all those methods. They (the Zionists) are brutal murderers in my book, and nothing more, and for that they deserve no more respect than that given to Nazi Germany in the mid 20th century.



Frankly, it's the distinct lack of international hysteria (the political torpor of people like you or, to put it another way, your "bullshit attitude") that is perpetuating the murder, torture and rape of Muslims as we type. In my opinion, a bit more hysteria is exactly what the current situation, in that area, needs.

Cheers, Andy.

Perhaps not.



Not so sure about that. Maybe not supremacy over all races but certainly over Muslims.



Now that's what I call ignorance.

Cheers, Andy.

Andy.When you say 'Palastinians',do you mean people who were born and bred in Palastine, or general economic and religious migrants who now live and work in Palastine.I have every sympathy for those genuine Palastinians who were dispalced in 1948 and for those genuine Palastinains who have had thier landmass diminished through political measures.

Two main points though.

1.The map of the world from 1917 to the present day,has seen mass change and the moving of borders and countries.The breaking up of countries.The changing name of countries and people.The shifting of borders.This has happened all over the world,through wars and political manouvering.Palastine and Israel are in no way unique.Just think what choas the world whould be in if every county of peoples who had land taken or borders moved during wars,were suddenly to launch terrorist campaigns to reclaim their former borders.Also Arafat had the chance to give the palastinians 97% of their former land back.He chose to reject this, and in consequence create the situation we see today.

2.At the time of the creation of the state of Israel,over 80% of 'Plastinians' were not Palastinian by birth,and over 80% of those displaced were not Plastinians by birth.Even at this present time about 80% of people currently living in palastine are not Palastinian by birth.The overwhelming majority remain economic or religious migrants from other Arabs states.

Saying that, i'm not highlighting those stats as an excuse for the violence ,war crimes, or reckless behaviour (from either side),i'm just stating some relevant facts.

Pity about the 'Jews infesting Palestine' reference , in my opinion. And I have still never heard of Israelis raping women. It's not an accusation that you hear from Palestinian spokespeople. Is this the kind of thing you are referring to Andy?

This was good, from Johann Hari. And there is another good article on that page titled: Why Israel won't just exchange prisoners.

I wonder if anyone thinks Israel's inhumane strategy has a chance of succeeding in Lebanon.
They want 'a robust' international force to police the border. Who's going to sign up for that?
Any European force might end up being targeted by Hizbollah. Maybe Turkey is tough enough for the job.
But are the Israelis going to trust Bangladeshi or Moroccan soldiers to keep them safe? The Indian Army?
If the Hizbollah people don't want you there, you get attacked.

I'd be very interested to see what sort of evidence you could pull up of Israeli extermination camps killing several thousand Palestinians per day, which would be the only things which would put their policies on a par with Nazi ones.

INFESTATION: noun: the state of being invaded or overrun by parasites.

I'm happy with my reference, on that basis, as I consider the Zionists to be just that, parasites. Of course, most parasites tend not to kill their hosts, but some, these ones in particular do.



Do a Google Damon. There's plenty of accusations floating about. Or is it a case of Muslims making the accusations laking in credibility. I guess we need to get CNN to confirm it.

Cheers, Andy.

*Mental note to self* ...Good word,must remember to incorperate that into the Asylum amd immigration threads.

Don't bother, "the klf" suffices just fine.

You're right Andy, I just Googled and came up with this lot.
Then how come the likes of Hanna Ashwari or Saeb Erekat don't talk about it?
Or perhaps they have, and I've just missed it.

On page 2 of this google search, there is the Palestinian Media watch site. I havent looked at these videos, one of them about rape, (I will later when I have time), but they look pretty hard core. (This is a pro Israel site I'm sure).
What a crap world.
We need another summer of love!!

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/

Zionist death-fest picketed by Jews for Justice
There was a rally in support of Israel's murderous onslaught against Gaza and Lebanon on Sunday. It was held in the Jews' Free School in Kenton. With such short notice and many people being away on holiday there was only a very small picket mounted by Jews for Justice for Palestinians. This is the report back by one of them:
Brief report on the picket: in the end there were five of us - all women - plus four small boys from the neighbourhood, two Pakistani and two Lebanese, who decided to join us - they were very helpful with handing out JfJfP leaflets, making placards out of cardboard which they fetched from home, and trying to talk to people. - though one woman accused us of "exploiting Lebanese children"!

The police had set up a special barrier for us to stand behind, but in the end decided to let us stand behind the school railings so we could talk to people as they went in and came out. We were also allowed to tie the JfJfP banner to the railings - it looked very striking with its slogan "Jews for Justice for Palestinians: Israel: Stop the Killings - Negotiate!" There seemed to be thousands and thousands of people going into the school - a lot of them just ignored us, a few were quite polite and friendly, but - especially when they left at the end, when they were fired up with nationalism - a large number were extremely hostile and really very dangerous and we were very glad of the police presence. They tore up our leaflets, grabbed our placards and tore them to pieces, tried to tear down our banner (the police managed to prevent this) and I really think they would have torn us to pieces if the police hadn't been there - the police actually had to intervene twice to prevent physical attacks. They spat at us, called us "traitors" and accused us of being like concentation camp kapos and said they hoped we would rot or burn in hell. Two of us had come by car with another JfjfP signatory and a policeman had to escort us to the car (parked a few streets away) at the end because of the likelihood we would be attacked.

On the other hand, there was quite a lot of press interest, and we gave interviews to the Press Association and the Evening Standard. So on the whole I think it was worth doing, though it was certainly not a pleasant experience.

By the way, we saw Paul Usiskin, the Chair of Peace Now UK, leaving the rally....

And here's a bit of an update:
a JfJfP signatory actually started crying at one point, not because she was frightened but because she was so upset at the hate and nastiness .... she kept asking them if they were happy that 10 times more Lebanese civilians had been killed than Israeli, and many of them said they were perfecty happy with this, and one man said "I wish it was 40 times as much" and another one said "I wish it was a million times as much"...
The presence we at Jews against zionism mounted to counter-picket against the Zionist Federation/Betar picket of the Rachel Corrie cantata was far more successful in terms of numbers and even that was a bit scary but we were preaching largely to the converted. What these five women did took a combination of physical and moral courage and they weren't preaching to converts. Far from it. They were countering a rally by race hate-mongers. I was tied up with something else yesterday and I tried to talk the two women I knew were going on the picket out of it. Thankfully they didn't listen.

In a surprise move, even the BBC reported on the picket.
A small counter-demonstration was staged outside the event by Jewish people opposed to military action in Lebanon.
They blotted their copy book quite badly at the cantata by interviewing people from JAZ but only reporting the ghoulish picket by the Zionist Federation and Betar and even showing photos of some of our people and calling them ZF! Disgraceful!

But Andy, you did not use the term in reference to Zionists in your original claim, you used it in reference to Jews. Do you consider all Jews parasites as well?

Left seriously - is this guy who says the issue needs "more hysteria" really worth trying to argue with logically. Yourself,Damon and in other threads Graham argue this issue with logic,knowledge and without prejudice,(I might not always agree but I see you are trying to get at truths).

Ive never put anyone on ignore before on here - but Im seriously thinking of doing it with Andy. Andy I do judge you an antisemite. "greedy zionists" etc etc foam foam at mouth.not realising the idea of zionism arose after the Dreyfus case as an outcry against antisemitism - not realising it has its roots in socialist movements. (im not defending or attacking zionism just teaching you some much needed history mate. if that sounds patronizing I couldnt give a shit - your posts are so horrible and help noone.)

Its very sad to see this on a bragg website.Ive loved his records for many years and he once said that the focal point of his life was to fight fascism whether it be from the barstool or the stage. I cant say for sure but Im guessing hed puke to see your ill judged,ill read (READ?????) comments.

Damon fair enough to investigate the rape claims.I would say though that those websites hardly seem credible to me. Just one example - apparently Israelis have for years been videoing these crimes to bribe Palestinian women. So the Israeli army are therefore not just incredibly cruel but incredibly stupid as well. (if just one of these tapes - just 5 minutes - found their way into the hands of the Palestinians theyd be all over al jazera within 24 hours.) There may have been isolated incidents - but to take it from this that it is a policy - youd have to want to believe it like Andy Tyrrell.

I'm a white, working class bloke from the Midlands of England so I've no concept of what it's like for Jews or arabs living in the region that was once Palestine but became Isreal after a terrosist led insurgency against the British.
Back in the sixties my parents made a determined, concerted and largely succesful effort to instill in me and my brother ideas about racial harmony, equality and the evils of racism and particularly anti semitism. My feelings had always been that it all happened very badly but a homeland for Jews now existed and the Arabs should just let it go. I know. Naive and simplistic in the extreme. I remember the 67 war. At least I remember seeeing it on the TV a lot. How pleased everybody was that Israel had thwarted an attempt to eliminate it as a nation.
Since then various Arab groups have stated their aim to be the anihalation of Isreal and in response Israel has, with funding from the US at a level that some small african nations couldn't begin to dream, has grown into almost a clone of the very nightmarish fascist force that attempted to wipe jews from the face of the planet.
As we've seen in the last couple of weeks not a single person from whatever country on earth is safe so long as Israel excersise its right to protect itself. So powerful are they now that the pitbull US, supported by the yappy poodle UK, will not even consider a ceasefire until Israel is ready. Until how many more Lebanese people lie rotting in the crumbling shells of their newly rebuilt apartments and homes?

The Israelis, and I'm going to emphasise that I have a problem with a nation not a race or a religion, have consistently lied about their aims and aspirations. I firmly believe that just as certain Arab groups will continue to struggle to destabilise the region in the futile hope that Israel will somehow disappear, Isreal itself would, if it thought it could get away with it, build gas chambers and do away with every palestinian arab it could lay hands on. This method of ethnic cleansing has been most brutally and tragically implanted into the minds of Israelis and I have no doubt that some see it as the only answer.

Not a single one of these people, jew or arab, responsible for pursuing the demise of an entire ethnic group will end up in any kind of paradise or heaven. They kneel and pray and chant but to what end? If there is a God he or she has surely abandoned them all to their own personal hell. There is really no justification for this sickening carnage. They are, without doubt, out of their minds.

Good post, Martyn.