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Jon D
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1804078,00.html

QUOTE
Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe

ˇ Attitude resembles public opinion in Islamic nations
ˇ British show greatest mismatch of feelings

Julian Borger in Washington
Friday June 23, 2006
The Guardian


Public opinion in Britain is mostly favourable towards Muslims, but the feeling is not requited by British Muslims, who are among the most embittered in the western world, according to a global poll published yesterday.
The poll, by the Washington-based Pew Global Attitudes Project, asked Muslims and non-Muslims about each other in 13 countries. In most, it found suspicion and contempt to be mostly mutual, but uncovered a significant mismatch in Britain.

The poll found that 63% of all Britons had a favourable opinion of Muslims, down slightly from 67% in 2004, suggesting last year's London bombings did not trigger a significant rise in prejudice. Attitudes in Britain were more positive than in the US, Germany and Spain (where the popularity of Muslims has plummeted to 29%), and about the same as in France.
Less than a third of British non-Muslims said they viewed Muslims as violent, significantly fewer than non-Muslims in Spain (60%), Germany (52%), the US (45%) and France (41%).

By contrast, the poll found that British Muslims represented a "notable exception" in Europe, with far more negative views of westerners than Islamic minorities elsewhere on the continent. A significant majority viewed western populations as selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral. Just over half said westerners were violent. While the overwhelming majority of European Muslims said westerners were respectful of women, fewer than half British Muslims agreed. Another startling result found that only 32% of Muslims in Britain had a favourable opinion of Jews, compared with 71% of French Muslims.
--snip--

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253
itsmeBarbara
You guys should all admire my restraint.
Leontien
I'm sure the stats over here are similar and/or worse.
But for Holland and the rest of the world I can only say: you reap just what you sow.

Peace love and understanding, equal rights and justice, brothers and sisters.
barmyrob
QUOTE(Jon D @ Jun 24 2006, 04:24 PM) *

By contrast, the poll found that British Muslims represented a "notable exception" in Europe, with far more negative views of westerners than Islamic minorities elsewhere on the continent.


The difference being that the UK is heavily involved in the war in Iraq.
the klf
QUOTE
A significant majority viewed western populations as selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral.



Change Western for Muslim.Put my name by the side of that statement,and you lot and would hit the roof .



The Guardian have once again shot themselves in the foot.

According to the Guardian.The 'majority' of Muslim Britains are racist and bigoted.
Over half of Muslim Britains deny that Arabs were responsable for the 9/11 attacks.

Not quite the message they were trying to put across.It obviously started of as a survey trying to have a dig at The West,but showed that European muslims,especially British muslims,as racist,bigoted,deluded,and rigidly entrenched along lines of race and religion.I'm sure they are not like that at all.Rather its just another Guardian loaded-question survey,that has gone pear shaped (as usual).
Jon D
Think the guardian's trying to engage with the world as it really is rather than as some preconcieved dogma says it must be KLF... The survey was done by some US based outfit anyway.
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 24 2006, 05:52 PM) *

The Guardian have once again shot themselves in the foot.


How exactly?
the klf
By betraying British muslims as Racist,bigoted,and deluded.A big slur on our muslim population, i'm sure you'll agree.When in fact The Guardians main aim in commissioning this survey,was obviously to have dig at the West and Britain.A spectacular own goal,in anyones book.
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 24 2006, 06:08 PM) *

By betraying British muslims as Racist,bigoted,and deluded.A big slur on our muslim population, i'm sure you'll agree.When in fact The Guardians main aim in commissioning this survey,was obviously to have dig at the West and Britain.A spectacular own goal,in anyones book.


What makes you think The Guardian commissioned the survey? They didn't. They did however report on the findings. It's called journalism.

And exactly how do you betray someone as racist bigoted and deluded? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
the klf
By getting them in a survey,to admit that other peoples are (in their opinion) Selfish,Arrogant,Greedy,and Immoral.
barmyrob
beˇtray tr.v. beˇtrayed, beˇtrayˇing, beˇtrays
1. To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
2. To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
3. To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
4. To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
5. To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
6. To reveal against one's desire or will.
7. To lead astray; deceive.

malˇaˇpropˇism n.
1. Ludicrous misuse of a word, especially by confusion with one of similar sound.
2. An example of such misuse.
the klf
wacko.gif

Does anyone know what this man is on about?
Leontien
Yes, they didn't BETRAY muslisms as rascist, they PORTRAYED muslims as being rascist (in your words).
Hell, I'm not even English...

(OK, I had to check webster.com for the spelling, but that's not above you either, is it)

Maybe instead of showing your love for your country by critisizing other nations and nationalities, you could show your love by learning to speak your own language a bit better.
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
As a Mooslim can anyone define what the http://pewglobal.org/ poll means by anti-western for me as its rather an expansive term... huh.gif

this is the Questionnaire http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/253topline.pdf
barmyrob
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jun 24 2006, 07:07 PM) *

As a Mooslim can anyone define what the http://pewglobal.org/ poll means by anti-western for me as its rather an expansive term... huh.gif

this is the Questionnaire http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/253topline.pdf


you can see the raw data on the questionairre

http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/253topline.pdf

I would suggest from skim reading it that the term "westerner" or "western" was whatever the individual being surveyed thought of them as....

It looks a perfectly fair survey to me.
Leontien
QUOTE
Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe


Since when is "europe" comprised of "great britain, france, germany and spain".

Grmpf...
Jon D
don't think that misses anywhere important IPB Image
Leontien
Right, expect unusually large numbers of earwigs in your tent at tolpuddle...
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=9192

on what it means to be anti-western, this guy has some points
QUOTE


What is the appeal of militant Islam? It is, first, its message: As all else has failed us, why not live the faith and law God gave us?

Second, it is the Muslim rage at the present condition where pro-Western regimes are seen as corruptly enriching themselves, while the poor suffer.

Third, it is a vast U.S. presence that Islamic peoples are taught is designed to steal their God-given resources and assist the Israelis in humiliating them and persecuting the Palestinians.

Lastly, Islamic militants are gaining credibility because they show a willingness to share the poverty of the poor and fight the Americans.

What America needs to understand is something unusual for us: From Morocco to Pakistan, we are no longer seen by the majority as the good guys.

If Islamic rule is an idea taking hold among the Islamic masses, how does even the best army on earth stop it? Do we not need a new policy?
nevski
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 24 2006, 06:44 PM) *

wacko.gif

Does anyone know what this man is on about?



yes.
Pete
QUOTE(Leontien @ Jun 24 2006, 06:53 PM) *

Yes, they didn't BETRAY muslisms as rascist, they PORTRAYED muslims as being rascist (in your words).
Hell, I'm not even English...
Maybe instead of showing your love for your country by critisizing other nations and nationalities, you could show your love by learning to speak your own language a bit better.
I wish I had more time to spend on here. I think. But that's the second brilliant post I've read today. Are we going to see you at Tolpuddle, KLF?
Mick H
The poll is worrying if its accurate, that we have some muslims in this country that will bomb the tube killing the innocent and a larger group who live here but reject western liberal democracy and its values.

I despise The nazi nail bomber and his ilk and the tube bombers and their supporters too. A plague on both their houses.
LeftintheUS
QUOTE(Leontien @ Jun 24 2006, 10:53 AM) *

Yes, they didn't BETRAY muslisms as rascist, they PORTRAYED muslims as being rascist (in your words).
Hell, I'm not even English...

(OK, I had to check webster.com for the spelling, but that's not above you either, is it)

Maybe instead of showing your love for your country by critisizing other nations and nationalities, you could show your love by learning to speak your own language a bit better.

I don't like the ad hominem nature of this post, but as an admitted grammar dork, I must admit I burst out laughing at that last sentence.
damon
Is this bloke Aki Nawaz just trying to make a name for himself?

(I'm a bit pushed for time in the library right now, 3 minutes left - but does he have anything to say?)

Personaly, I think he's being a bit of a drama queen.
the klf
Love the way The Guardian make this racist hate-filled rapper,out to be some sort of relivent musician,just being passed a baton from the likes of The Sex Pistols. ohmy.gif Whilst anyone who would dare to object or seek to reign in his words of hate and death,are just Establishment squares.

Sums up the warped minds of The guardian in one article.But hey, the've had people like this fella on the payroll before now,so its not surprising they are championing him.
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 05:49 PM) *

Love the way The Guardian make this racist hate-filled rapper,out to be some sort of relivent musician,just being passed a baton from the likes of The Sex Pistols. ohmy.gif Whilst anyone who would dare to object or seek to reign in his words of hate and death,are just Establishment squares.

Sums up the warped minds of The guardian in one article.But hey, the've had people like this fella on the payroll before now,so its not surprising they are championing him.


Whilst it is totally apparent that you can't write (relivent laugh.gif) it's also becoming clear that you struggle to read.

Quite, quite mad.
dissident
"Reject your patronising liberal views"

Isn't that what you keep saying KLF?
the klf
Explain how i misunderstood the article,Barmy.Why did The Guardian produce an article on this man,and what was their agenda for doing so?

QUOTE(dissident @ Jun 29 2006, 06:01 PM) *

"Reject your patronising liberal views"

Isn't that what you keep saying KLF?


But it seems The Left will back any anti-women/anti-liberty/anti-peaceful views, AS LONG as the person spouting them is either non-Western or hostile to The West.
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 06:01 PM) *

Explain how i misunderstood the article,Barmy.Why did The Guardian produce an article on this man,and what was their agenda for doing so?


You totally misunderstand everything KLF.

The article is about an artist releasing a controversial record. That is of interest to people.

That doesn't mean that the Guardian is necessarily condoning his music - it's called journalism KLF - something which you are woefully ill-educated about.
the klf
How many other newspapers gave this character column inches? And would The Guardian give the same sympathetic write-up to a far Right-wing rapper spouting hatred against Muslims and their way of life?? dry.gif (hes only carrying the baton from the likes of the sex pistols).Yeah right,of course they would

Only the ill-educated would dream that The Gaurdian doesn't have an agenda (Even if it is just the usual 'Its all our fault' routine)
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 06:11 PM) *

How many other newspapers gave this character column inches? And would The Guardian give the same sympathetic write-up to a far Right-wing rapper spouting hatred against Muslims and their way of life?? dry.gif (hes only carrying the baton from the likes of the sex pistols).Yeah right,of course they would

Only the ill-educated would dream that The Gaurdian doesn't have an agenda (Even if it is just the usual 'Its all our fault' routine)


Did your Mum drop you or something when you were a baby. You are paranoid, delusional and stupid.

hes only carrying the baton from the likes of the sex pistols - what the fuck are you on about. Don't you understand quotation marks?

Nawaz, a former drummer in the Southern Death Cult, said yesterday: "I have a right to push the boundaries as much as anyone else has, whether it's Ken Loach or Harold Pinter or George Galloway or Neil Young or the Sex Pistols."

That is Nawaz putting forward his point of view. That doesn't make it the point of view of the paper.

And as for other papers - the tabloids are frothing at the mouth as we speak - and it'll do the record no end of good I'm sure.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006290815,00.html
the klf
Lets turn the whole thing on its head and see if The Guardian really are honest and unbiased.I'm going to print below a highly offensive fictional story,based very closely on the words of the original article.All that i have changed is the Muslim extremist and terroist references,with far-right nazi references.The rest of the text remains as it was written.
Do you honestly think that :
1.The Guardian would have given the group a writeup.
2.That the article would have been just as uncritical and considered.
3.The reporter would have blindly compared the lyrics of the band to that of The Sex Pistols and NWA?

In my opinion, hatred/bigoty/incouragment of violence..etc, is just as bad ,whoever spouts it.The Left and newspapers like The guardian,should take a long hard look at themselves,when they seem tollerate it being spouted form one section, more than they do the other.

Take a look at my fictional (but parallel) article ,and see if you get the meaning.See if you find it more or less offensive than the original.



QUOTE
The arrian race and the final sollution:The rapper who likens Adolf Hitler to Che Guevara.

Controversial rap group fun-da-nazi-mental have been producing politically challenging music since 1991.Their album All Is War (benifits of The crusade) contains one track using the words of Adolf Hitler issuing 'a statement of and explanation for conflict'.Another forensically recreates a SS guard at work..The opening song is what the band see as the hypocrisy and immorality of muslims and Jews.

The drummer of the band says 'I have the right to push boundries as much as anyone else,whether its ken Loach or Harold Pinter or Neil Young or the Sex Pistols'' He added.''I've got a lot of frustation at where we have arrive at.I'll take the heat.I've told my wife and kids,if anything goes wrong, i want you outside Pattington Green and i wnat you to stay there day and night.

Two directors at the bands Record label have threatened to resign if he releases the album.A band member said ''They're in fear for themselves and they're in fear for me which is as telling a tale of where we are at in the present scheme of things when it comes to freedom of expression'.

He said rather than ask about the effect his album might have on impressionable people, the question should be asked of the government. "You've already got people at the top who are inspiring them to do wrong. It's like a mafia who say for us to do anything is legitimate but any resistance towards us is illegitimate. So you have legalised terrorism and illegal terrorism."

The bands leader who grew up in Bradford, believes he is being honest. This "honesty" manifests itself in tracks such as the rap song I Reject, an angry polemical blast with lines such as "Reject your blood I reject your creed/Reject your queen and her stolen crown/Reject your media falsified news/Reject your patronising liberal views." It also takes a swipe at moderate right wing voices who accept invitations to Downing Street.

Cookbook DIY has lyrics about how a far-right suicide bomber makes his bomb. It also has a verse about how a White House scientist makes his bomb - equating the two.

He denies that he is condoning suicide bombers. "Everything to me is tragic. I don't understand what the guys are doing. But I can feel what they're doing."

It is not difficult to predict the reaction from some sectors. He is ready for it. "I've got a Post-It note on my front door saying don't knock the door in, ring me, here's my number.
"
barmyrob
The rapper who likens Adolf Hitler to Che Guevara.

laugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.gif
the klf
The rapper who likens Bin Laben to Che Guevara

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Get the point i'm trying to make,barmy?
barmyrob
And in answer to your question - no I don't find it offensive.

I would find the artist offensive (and laughable) - and I'm sure if I ever bother to listen to Fun-da-mental I would find them offensive (and laughable).

But the article - no - it's actually not offensive.

You on the other hand.....

QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 07:47 PM) *

The rapper who likens Bin Laben to Che Guevara

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Get the point i'm trying to make,barmy?


No - you are not actually making a point you are making a complete tit of yourself.

Please - carry on - don't let me stop you
the klf
But would the Guardian reporter have been as uncritical of the Nazi band,as he was of the other band?

I'm saying that all extremism/bigotry/hated/incitement to violence,should be totally and equally condemned,but as one form is anti-Western,the Left seem to be more tollerant of it and more willing to 'understand' and sympathise.That is hypocricy.And that was the point i was making.
Zippy
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 06:52 PM) *

That is the only point i'm trying to put across.


You sure about that? You've changed your post 5 times already.
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 07:52 PM) *

But would the Guardian reporter have been as uncritical of the Nazi band,as he was of the other band?

I'm saying that all extremism/bigotry/hated/incitement to violence,should be totally and equally condemned,but as one form is anti-Western,the left seem to be more tollerant of it and more willing to 'understand' and sympathise.That is hypocricy and not morally justifiable.Thats the only point i'm trying to put across.


What you plainly fail to understand KLF is that not every paper is written in the style of The Sun, which editorialises with every sentence.

Some papers are actually capable of honest unbiased journalism. I know that is a difficult concept for you to comprehend but there you go.
the klf
Make that 6 times.You have to get the wording just right,or the spelling and punctuation fascist, that is Barmy,will start whinging again.
barmyrob
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 08:01 PM) *

Make that 6 times.You have to get the wording just right,or the spelling and punctuation fascist, that is Barmy,will start whinging again.


And you still haven't spelled tolerant correctly.

QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 07:52 PM) *

,the Left seem to be more tollerant of it and more willing to 'understand' and sympathise.That is hypocricy.And that was the point i was making.
the klf
QUOTE
Some papers are actually capable of honest unbiased journalism. I know that is a difficult concept for you to comprehend but there you go.


How niave are you Barmy?? I've tried to prove that The Guardian are anything but unbiased No newspaper is politically unbiased),but you obviously think that any opinion that coincides with yours (or any opinion that massages your own political ego), is unbiased.So my arguement is falling on deaf ears. sad.gif
barmyrob
http://www.nme.com/news/fun-da-mental/23473

QUOTE
Fun-Da-Mental man hits out at new album controversy
Aki Nawaz says he's 'amazed'
Fun-Da-Mental frontman Aki Nawaz has admitted he's "amazed" at the controversy over his new album, which describes suicide bombers.

The BBC reported today (June 29) that Nawaz could face prosecution under glorification of terrorism laws for the content of 'All Is War (The Benefits of G-Had)'.

It was also reported that Martin Mills and Andrew Heath, two "silent" directors of Fun-Da-Mental's label Nation Records, have threatened to quit their posts if the album is released. It's currently scheduled to come out on July 31.

Mills and Heath both declined to comment when approached by NME.COM today.

One of the songs, called 'Cookbook DIY', has caused the most controversy. It contains the lyrics: "I'm strapped-up 'cross my chest, bomb belt attached, deeply satisfied with the pain I hatched, electrodes connected to a gas cooker lighter."

The BBC quoted Nawaz as saying: "If it means taking the rap and promoting the album from Belmarsh prison, I'll do it."

Speaking on the band's official website today (June 29), Nawaz said: "It amazed me that such a fuss could be made, bearing in mind the countless amounts of documentaries, books, films, plays that are made about the state of our current political situation, all I was doing was creating a soundtrack for the background, if Spielberg asked me to do a soundtrack I would do the same intense and emotional tracks providing his film was displaying the subject matters."

He added: "Do I condone terrorism is a question that is constantly thrown at me - No I do not BUT would it not be correct that we all, yes every single one of us are condoning terrorism by contributing our taxes and silence to Terrorism committed by the STATE albeit on innocent people thousands of miles away."

And Nawaz fiercely defended 'Cookbook', the song which the media have picked up on most.

He stated: "On the 'Cookbook' track the media is in frenzy with some of the lyrics but they totally ignore the 3rd verse which explains scientists employed by Governments to create as much murder as possible - judge me on the whole track not just the introduction.

"All other tracks which form part of the build up and the emotional aspect of pain and hurt by the reality is ignored."


QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 08:06 PM) *

QUOTE
Some papers are actually capable of honest unbiased journalism. I know that is a difficult concept for you to comprehend but there you go.


How niave are you Barmy?? I've tried to prove that The Guardian are anything but unbiased No newspaper is politically unbiased),but you obviously think that any opinion that coincides with yours (or any opinion that massages your own political ego), is unbiased.So my arguement is falling on deaf ears. sad.gif


No KLF - what you plainly fail to understand is that there is a difference between papers that contain good honest reporting and well written articles* (of which I would include, in the UK; The Guardian, The Telegraph and The FT) and those that editorialise within the body of stories.

Comment belongs in the Op Ed section of a paper - not in the stories.

*Edited to add* I'm not saying everything in these three papers necessarily conforms to this, but these are the three that stand out from the crowd here as being fundamentally honest in their reporting.
Leontien
But the financial times is a hornets nest of left wing bias!

Tssssk.
Pete
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jun 29 2006, 07:49 PM) *

I would find the artist offensive (and laughable) - and I'm sure if I ever bother to listen to Fun-da-mental I would find them offensive (and laughable).

I lose it with KLF, Barmy. And I haven't read all the dialogue. Just for the record, Fun-Da-Mental are a radical black/asian rap band, who came in for major grief from the NF (as was) and latterly the BNP. "Dog Tribe" features as its intro a chilling (and I am sure genuine) message which turned up on their answerphone.

"We're going to burn your buildings down, you bastards, you nigger-loving Paki c*nts". It goes on... and on...
Anyway, just passing through in a way, but Fun-Da-Mental are top geezers imho.
the klf
And you teach impressionable schoolkids every day??? Frightening.It chills the spine.

Does you headmaster know that you think people who preach hatred,holy war,and violence are 'Top Geezers'?




We must condemn and eradicate extremism and violence from both sides.To condemn one side, whilst sympathising and praising the other, will only create more extremism and violence from ALL sides.
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 10:58 PM) *

And you teach impressionable schoolkids every day??? Frightening.It chills the spine.

Does you headmaster know that you think people who preach hatred,holy war,and violence are 'Top Geezers'?




We must condemn and eradicate extremism and violence from both sides.To condemn one side, whilst sympathising and praising the other, will only create more extremism and violence from ALL sides.


LOL your gonna love this then KLF............ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKTsJpfC0IQ

Hip hop and ya don't stop
Lee_Harvey_Oswald
Ziauddin Sardar article in the New Statesman?:-

QUOTE


Can British Islam change?
Ziauddin Sardar
Monday 3rd July 2006

It has been a eventful, traumatic year. Britain's Muslims still feel the shock of the events of 7 July 2005, but they have never been more active, more engaged, more self-reflective. Almost every mosque in Britain has been galvanised by young Muslims furiously stoking debate, interrogating imams and community leaders, and raising questions of change, belonging and the reform of Islam. Nothing is off the agenda.

Young Muslims are now among the most politically conscious and active people in Britain. In the past, says Shamim Miah, an experienced youth worker in Oldham, politics was seen as boring. Now, Muslims as young as 12 years old see politics as integral to their lives, and are not afraid to air opinions on politicians, community leaders, or the government's efforts to engage with Muslims. "The average Muslim youth on the street, even if unemployed and with no qualifications, will quite easily give a sophisticated deconstruction of media bias, foreign policy, war on terror and policing," Miah says.

Moreover, Islam now plays an even more important part in shaping the identity of young Muslims. Proud to be Muslim, they do not hesitate to demonstrate that pride. At the same time, they have moved beyond the politics of identity. Miah has conducted an extensive survey of young Muslims in the Manchester area, where, she says, Islam is used as a springboard to political engagement. The conventional, inward-looking approach is giving way to greater engagement with civil society. Young Muslims have more confidence both in their Britishness and in their faith-based identity.

According to M A Qavi, a London-based social activist who spends most of his time attending meetings and listening to the young all over Britain, the new expression of dual identity "is a product of a certain self-consciousness of belonging to this country and growing awareness of the need to make their voices heard as Muslims". Young politicised Muslims deeply distrust professional Muslim leaders, or those identified with the government, and are drawn towards those who articulate what they consider to be injustices suffered by Muslims everywhere, says Qavi. The Respect leader George Galloway, "even after his shameful antics in Big Brother", remains their favourite politician.

The concern among a growing body of young Muslim trend-setters, such as those who lead City Circle, a network of Muslim professionals which organises weekly debates, is that community institutions are not changing fast enough. There are still a few imams and self-appointed sheikhs in Britain who project Islam as an ideology that is absolutely right, holy and totally good, and see everything else as an imminent danger to the community, says Andleen Razzaq of City Circle. "These imams come from a deeply entrenched patriarchal tradition. Most of them are uneducated or semi-literate, and foster a kind of pathology and paranoia that can easily lead our youth astray," she warns. Because young Muslims here have a strong sense of connection with Muslims around the world, identifying with suffering people in Palestine, Chechnya and elsewhere, and rejecting US and British foreign policy, the temptation to develop an "us and them" mentality is always there. As such, they can be easily manipulated by radical imams and charismatic leaders.

The other main concern is about the breakdown of confidence between the police and Muslim communities. Muslims fear nothing more than further terrorist attacks. These would have a double impact on them - as citizens they would be targets like everyone else, and as Muslims they would face a backlash - so they are particularly eager to help in any way. However, they are not convinced that the police are up to the job. The revelation that Moh ammad Sidique Khan was on the intelligence radar prior to 7/7 but never picked up, and the Forest Gate shooting, have made Muslims sceptical about police intelligence. This must be seen in the context of a troubled relationship between young Muslims and the police dating back to the 2001 riots in Oldham, Bradford and elsewhere. "They are increasingly feeling vulnerable and think they will be targeted because of their religion," Miah says. "For many, the question is not if the incident of Forest Gate will happen to them, but rather when it will happen."

Yahya Birt, a research fellow at the Islamic Foundation in Leicester, draws parallels with Ireland, the Troubles and the IRA. "The Muslims are the new Irish," he says. As in the early 1970s in Northern Ireland, widespread stop-and-search, the internment of political prisoners, shoot-to-kill, house raids and hostile press coverage might strengthen the radical fringe, he says. There are always people ready to exploit the heavy-handedness of the police, the paranoid ravings of the tabloid press, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There has also been a big shift in the debate in the Muslim community in the past year. Post-9/11 oppositional politics has given way to anxieties about integration and the reform of Islam. Here the government has played a leading role, and a paradoxical one, as the sponsor of a "roadshow" of leading scholars that has reached roughly 25,000 Muslims since last December. As with previous official attempts to engage with the Muslim community, this one had the unintended effect of promoting traditionalists and conservatives, even to the extent of importing closed-minded traditionalists from the United States. In turn, this has increased theological engagement with extremism, and with it, sectarian division among British Muslims.

As a result, differences between conservatives and liberals are much more pronounced. Conservatives such as the intellectual Tariq Ramadan and the American preacher Hamza Yusuf Hanson insist the only people with the right to interpret Islam are the ulema (religious scholars), who must seek solutions to contemporary problems within a largely ossified tradition. While Ramadan has called for the hudood laws, the problematic crime-and-punishment aspects of Islamic law, to be suspended, he is a strong supporter of the sharia. Hanson rejects the whole idea of religious reform and presents a romanticised notion of tradition where the sheikh or the teacher knows all.

Liberals such as Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, director of the Muslim Institute, the academic and commentator Abdelwahab el-Affendi, and Taj Hargey, chairman of the newly established Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, have a different agenda. They have little faith in the sharia, regard the religious scholars who uphold a closed sacred canon of commentary as part of the problem rather than the solution, and, on the whole, seek root-and-branch reform of Islam.

"Simply put, the liberals don't trust the conservatives on the integration agenda or on extremism," says Birt. The conservative solutions focus on theological engagement, where as for the liberals, extremism is the direct result of too much religious conservatism in the first place, he says.

Hargey sums up the liberal position. Liberals want to talk about "gender equality, sexual orientation, pluralistic notions of Islam, the nature of loyalty to the umma [global Muslim community], the accumulation of religious authority in the hands of a particular class, and the problematic nature of the sharia", he says - the very issues on which the conservatives on the whole are silent. The "litmus test" of a liberal Muslim, Hargey suggests, is that he or she is ready to discuss everything and does not accuse others of heresy or of being lesser Muslims. He is particularly scathing about the religious scholars and the sharia. "Blind following of the religious scholars is responsible for our current impasse," he declares. "And the sharia has no relevance to the 21st-century lives of the British Muslims."

The debate between liberals and conservatives is certain to intensify; simultaneously, Muslim youths are discovering a different way of expressing their Islamic identity. During the past year a new street genre has appeared in the inner cities of Britain. "Cool Islam" expresses its identity through hip-hop and rap, and is heavily influenced by an underground Muslim hip-hop movement in the US. Followers listen to British Muslim groups such as Mecca2Medina and American crews such as Native Deen. They wear urban-style Muslim clothing, their hooded tops and T-shirts sporting such slogans as "Property of Allah", "1 Umma" and "Islam 4 Real". Cool Islam uses hip-hop to convey a political and religious message: all Muslims are united; Islam is a pragmatic and rational faith; Muslims are not helpless victims, but have creative ways to resist and subvert imperialism. "It is important to realise that hip-hop refers only to the musical genre, not mainstream culture filled with sex, drugs and violence," says Miah. The message could not be further from the hip-hop mainstream.

The London bombings also had a marked impact on academic and scholarly activity. A whole new discipline, "British Muslim studies", has emerged, led by the Centre for the Study of Islam at Cardiff University. Headed by the energetic Sophie Gilliat-Ray, the centre was created after the events of last July to "promote scholarly and public understanding of Islam and the life of Muslim communities in the UK". Clearly, the concerns of Britain's Muslims are now everyone's concern. Everything the community does or thinks is under the spotlight. Like Britain itself, it will never be the same again.
dissident
One thing that has happened for a long time is the lyrical expression of current events and themes in society, this isn't new at all.

The media hyper-reaction is helping to publicise the record, and as the artist himself stated "judge me on the whole track not just the introduction", otherwise it is just ill informed kneejerk reactionary hogwash to talk in absolutes about songs which have only been explained to us via the always distorting lens of a journalists opinion.

After all, in this day and age if a band were to release a song with the lyric: "Take this song of freedom, put it on and arm yourself in a fight" the band would be condemed for incitement. As for a song entitled "The Attack" and has a clearly conspiritorial story to it, would the writer be condemed? Is it morally justifiable?

Now the talking's over, plans are laid and the hour is set
Glances round the table, eyes all shining, dark and bright
We meet again at daybreak for the day that will be ours
We're tomorrow's history
So just check your weapons, say your prayers.
Now the evening's over, voices muffled in the cold night mist
We leave the house together, home to rest up in the last few hours
Heads against the pillows with eyes that will not close
Of all the dreams that we've ever had
This is the one, this is the one

Now the night is over - dawn cracks open like a breaking shell
Now the waiting's over - as we walk in silence through the empty streets
We meet beneath the tower, greetings empty like the taste inside
Turn towards the valley and the day that has waited for us all our lives
Even in this age of concrete, even in this age of reason
There comes a time when you put your life
Into the hands of the gods.
Pete
QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 10:58 PM) *

Does you headmaster know that you think people who preach hatred,holy war,and violence are 'Top Geezers'?
Why do you assume a head teacher has to be a man?

But actually I will concede, from having checked out their website - www.fun-da-mental.co.uk/, and read about their new album, that they have shifted their stance considerably from that which they had in the late 90s (which is the last time I listened to them seriously), and I don't like the radical Islamist tone of a lot of it.

So there. Pete backs down.
the klf
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jun 30 2006, 04:12 AM) *

QUOTE(the klf @ Jun 29 2006, 10:58 PM) *

And you teach impressionable schoolkids every day??? Frightening.It chills the spine.

Does you headmaster know that you think people who preach hatred,holy war,and violence are 'Top Geezers'?




We must condemn and eradicate extremism and violence from both sides.To condemn one side, whilst sympathising and praising the other, will only create more extremism and violence from ALL sides.


LOL your gonna love this then KLF............ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKTsJpfC0IQ

Hip hop and ya don't stop


I still don't think these people get the fact that our tolerant and moderate society is ALLOWING them too be free to spout such nonsense and make fools of themselves.They still can't see the contradition.I was told that one of the main no-no's of the Islamic religion was to show ungratefulness.It seems some people have failed to show that quality to a country and its people who welcomed them into their land and enabled them to live free and preaceful lives in their country.
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