OK, so everyone must be aware of the marches that have been taking place across the USA for the past couple of weeks.
I asked about it on another thread on march 28th, but only itsmebarbara had anything to say on the matter,
(and posted a very nice article, I thought).
I think it has been one of the biggest stories around, and there has been loads written about the issue.
Like this, by Gary Younge, in yesterdays Guardian.
I like Gary Younge and his writing. I agree with him most of the time. But I can understand why not everyone goes along with his liberal/left outlook. Some of those comments under his article trouble me, as even though I see my self as left and liberal, I can see where those conservatives are coming from.

So I ask: What is the right thing to do on this issue? The status quo is not good enough, with 11 or 12 million people just living their lives without documentation. And more people coming every day.
I just saw a piece on BBC World, about migrants travelling up from southern Mexico, riding the freight trains
to the north. It's terrible.

Here is someone else who troubles me: Mark Steyn. He is a clever so and so, and he tests my liberalism.
Maybe the answer is not to read people like this. But that doesn't sit right with me. I can ignore the likes of Richard Littlejohn quite easily, but sometimes right wing comment can be quite convincing. No?

Then there are argumuments put foreward, like this one in National Review that are easier to dismiss as bordering on hate speech, but check out those pictures in the links in the article. I can imagine plenty of Americans feeling angry at scenes like those.

Yesterday, looking around on the computer, I came across quite a lot of opinion on this subject.
I was thinking about posting up a few articles and sites that might be a bit controversial on the BB forum,
but that's what politics and current affairs are about, (right?).

Like this site from little green footballs. They are talking about the Mark Steyn article. I looked them up at Wikipedia, so I know they are pretty right wing. But they talk like a lot of people do.
If I go down to watch Crystal Palace play, and go for a pint before the match, that is how a conversation might go. People I have known for 20 years talk like that.
I would be interested to hear from anyone who can read through it to give an opinion.

I wonder what people think of what Victor Davis Hanson has to say on the subject.

Assimilation is the real debate. I think it's a fair opinion.

Or this one: Protesters Run Amok. Which isn't as bad as it sounds.

Or this one: Illegal Immigration and the English Language.

The next one is a long article from 2002, which I think is really interesting. He describes the situation in his home town of Selma California, and how it has changed since he remembers it when growing up.
It's called: Do We Want Mexifornia, and I think he makes a good argument.
Even if people don't agree with him, he is not too right wing, is he?

And I know this might be getting a little silly now, but he was interviewed on National Puplic Radio a couple of years ago, and he comes across as quietly spoken and quite liberal. Maybe nobody on this forum will listen to it, but I'll put it up anyway. The Connection.

I can see where this thread is going ........... down like a lead balloon.
So with some trepidation, Ill post up a couplle of more links.

I saw this a couple of days ago, and I hope that people realise that I have no positive feelings toward these people or their opinions. This from Save Our State.

And this is their forum.
Isn't that creepy and disturbing?
I'm sure there are a lot of people who dont even want to see this stuff, or perhaps because I have only spent any real time on a computor starting this year, many of you know all this sort of thing from years back, while I'm constantly turning stuff up that I knew nothing about.

On the photos of billboards in Spanish in Southern California, I presume a good liberal response would be:
"So parts of California become bi-lingual. So what?" That's my opinion anyway. I have seen billboards
like those, and it feels a bit exotic to be there.
Of course it does complicate things some what. If you aren't bilingual, do you loose out in the job market?

I like that billboard, advertising, I presume, a TV station in LA, with the downtown high rise buildings at dusk.
'Los Angeles Mexico' it says. Is that origional, or graffiti?

Do you have any other interests other than topics which could be broadly defined as "race issues" ?

Mick, do you not think that race is important?

I do Mick. It's that I feel on these 'race issues', that the liberal/left, that I want to consider my self part of,
too often runs and hides from these issues.

People would rather make a big deal about 'fighting the Nazis', than talk about the far from satisfactory
situation that exists in South London where I'm from.

And I would just ask people, if they read, for example, the article 'Do we want Mexifornia?'
And not just think that it sounded like a reactonary title for an article, so didn't read it.

I feel the lefts anti-racism is just not good enough.
I also undersdand it may just be me. (Being a fool).

Barbara, Yes its important,

but not as important as schools, hospitals, the economy and issues that effect everybody directly IMHO.

Damon, care to post on any of these or would you bring a "race" angle into them asap?

We're going to have to agree to disagree, Mick. I think all of those things (at least in the US) are also racial issues.

Mick, I think I agree with you, about schools, hospitals, and the economy being most important.
England isn't so bad. We've got the 4th biggest economy in the world, (well, the UK), and its 60 million people get along, not so badly. No one is starving, crime and murder could be worse.

I saw a clip on the telly last night, from Azerbaijan, where the riot police were steaming into crowds of anti-government protestors, even attacking the opposition leaders car as he turned up in it, and I thought,
"We're not so bad as that in the UK."

Where I am right now, in Riga, Latvia, they do have some serious problems of a divided community that doesn't really get along. Though I'm only going on the little I've read, and from a few conversations with
the young Latvians who run the hostel I've been staying in.
And from just walking about with my eyes open.
All the Latvians I have spoken to, would like the Russians to leave, because, apparently they make up most of the Maffia, most of the skinheads who plague the city are Russians, and the drunks that will pick a fight with you, also are said to be mostly Russian.
Now I'm not claiming for a minute any of this is true, It's just what people (Latvians) have been telling me.
I'm sure the Russian community has some real and genuine issues about their 2nd class status in the country.

I'll see if I can post on schools, hospitals and the economy as soon as I can think of somthing to say on them.

I thought I might post this. It was from a couple of days ago.
12 hundred arrests of suspected illegal workers in southern california in one day, seems a high number.
The state, or cities, or sheriffs departments, wouldn't be playing politics, (Would they?)

The guy from 'Save Our State?' What do you reckon? I think they are definately a backward group.
Not quite the kkk, but I have read their website for several hours, and looked at several clips of film they have put up on the net. (From protests and actions they have organised).

Here is another clip, in which they 'use' a homeless black guy argue for for them. They are angry at
Home Depot, (a DIY chain) for opening day labour agencies on their premises, which they presume is all about undocumented workers getting jobs.
Notice the man says he has been turned down for work because he isn't bi-lingual.

In the next clip, they are protesting at a Home Depot in Burbank (LA area), and there is a counter demonstration opposite

The 'Save our State' people are definately morons, what about the people on the other side of the road?
Maybe they're on the just side of this ugly little encounter, but they are a bit aggresive, aren't they?

And just to show I don't have a (completly) one track mind, here's an article that I thought was very interesting. On education of all things.
Reaching out from the Rust Belt.

I'm sure people are interested in this issue, but maybe dont like the way I've started It.

People are the way they are, and a lot of people are small minded.
Emotions were raised in this outdoor forum in LA.

I think these next people are idiots, but people like them are you neighbours and the people you work with.
Even though I disagree with them, I can see why people are upset by change in their enviroment.
My sister lived as in illegal in the northen san fernando valley in LA 20 years ago, and a couple of years ago
I went up there for a walk around and see what it was like. It is very Hispanic, and looks pretty rough.
See post 5 and the mention of 'the rockford files'
SF Valley, then and now.

And a couple of others, just for the photos.
Photo 1
Photo 2

Edited to say: I've read some more of that forum and I they are worse than I thought.
They allow too much extreme posting to get by without censure.
Which is good for people on the left who like to their opposition to be ogres and trolls.

good grief charlie brown. whats all this about then? :blink

am coming back on this one- you guys need a serious fecking talking to! - cept you imb

damon - who are you?
seriously?

the power is just about to go here - oh- i wonder why that is - could it be because im in Africa, where there is very often no power! i may just go get a drink of water and wait a bit! shite! forgot. i cant. the water is unsanitised, unsafe to drinkl maybe i will go to my school.for a bit. feck. i cant. its raining and really dark. the children cant come because there is no power, no drainage and the school has flooded. the rain has also caused the open sewers and pit ;atrines to over flow. just aswell they cant come to school then cause they would get very sick and then couldnt go to the doctors, cause their parents couldnt afford it, thats if they have parents, and then they would probably die!

so what to do! oh o know i can get on a plane and come home!!!

Hi pink shay.
I'm 43; a part time truck driver, and a part time tourist. I don't have much going on in London, so as soon as
I have saved up some money, I want to leave. I'm in Vilnius at the moment. (Lovely town).
I think I'm sort of left wing, definitely an anti-racist, and a bit of an internationalist.
(Sorry, she did ask).

The way you describe where you are in Uganda reminds me of a few places I've been. (But I would just be passing through - a big difference).
They call this the developing world these days, but I think Third World was a better description.

The people in that American forum I put up, have seen some of the problems of the third world turn up in
their neighbourhoods, and they dont like it. They want it swept away and out of sight.
They drive around, filming groups of Mexican day labourers who are looking for casual work. then they try to get the police to do something about it.
Shame on them, I say.
In post #3, if you click on "immigration watchdog" there is quite a fascinating 3 minute clip of the demonstrations a few weeks ago, and snippets of speeches made there. No wonder these people are worried.

Here's another thread that gives me pause for thought.
If anyone viewed the video clip I put up in post 10, of the protest at the Home Depot in Burbank, you will have seen the Hispanic woman with the 'save our state' group come in for some very unpleasant abuse from the counter demonstration.
The thread is called:
To the lovely Hispanic lady at Burbank 4 / 22 rally, I'm so sorry you were abused.
See what Wild Bill says in post 8. Then post 21.
I'm almost feeling that SOME of these people aren't that different from the 'mainstream' of gun toting patriots
that are a decent sized part of US society.

It looks like this is a thread that nearly everyone wants to ignore. Sorry about that.
Tomorow is the Great American Boycott. I would wonder, but probably wont find out, if any of the forum members in the States will be taking part.
On that 'save our state' forum, one poster described himself as a 'white nationalist', and then went on to try to engage other people on the forum in race talk. He was told by the next poster, to take a hike. The "SOS"
forum was not the place for him he was told. They were a forum that was ONLY about securing the borders,
and that any immigrants who came to the country were more than welcome. (After they had gone through the immigration process).
So even though they are a backward and small minded group of people, they don't fit into that category that some people might prefer. They are not Jew killing Nazis.
They don't hate Mexicans, (they say), and yet the tone of the forum is way to the right of the BB forum.
Most people on here would automaticly be against them, (I presume).
And yet they claim to only care about controlled immigration.
I have heard someone on this forum say that was their position as far as the UK was concerned.
And it wasn't the klf.

Edited to add: that's it from me on this subject.
I can see I've made a twat of my self.
It might be better to delete the thread and pretend it never was.

yeah, not much is being said here on these protests.

The size was impressive. These where probably some of the largest protests in US history. They even occured in smaller cities, like South Bend. Apparently 2,000 protested in the Quad Cities, which is probably the largest demo there ever. 400,000 in Chicago.

No, no. Not at all. It's just such a complex issue, I for one can't begin to do my thoughts on it justice here, and don't particularly want to.

FWIW, I did follow a number of your links (thanks for those). Spent a whole lot of time browsing the Save Our State forum, which is a massive dose of the attitudes that a goodly chunk of my California-dwelling family members tend to put forth , and which for the sake of various social interactions, I try to avoid discussing with them (no, they aren't going to change their minds, I'm not going to change mine, pass the cranberry sauce, please).

My impression of the SOS forum was different from yours in that I *did* think there was a whole lot of anti-Mexican (legal or non) sentiment, with occasional lip service being paid to being about just securing the borders in an effort to appeal to the more moderate views they need for political clout. There was a lot of hate on there, IMO.

Yeah..I think these attitudes vary across the US, too.

It's going to be very hard, if not impossible, to establish "economic equality" in a world of 6.5 billion people which is projected to be 9.5 billion people by the year 2025. I don' t think it can be done.

The united states is projected by some demographers, if they continue to allow legal and illegal immigration at the rates they are, to have 1 billion people by the year 2100. My personal feeling is that they should not allow their population get to this level. My view is that people's around the world need to work out their own population and economic problems on their own lands.

I love liberals, but, I think they can be very unrealistic about some things. Why would America beset with real social problems, pandemic crime, the worst educational system in the industrialized world, an imploding socioeconomic infrastructure allow millions of desperate poor people into their country until they got a hold of some of these problems is beyond me. I think immigration should be very carefully planned in the industrialized countries. I would like to see those who don't agree with me to open their homes immediately to everyone who would like to live there and then tell me how successful the expirament turns out ?

Remember this thread? I put a bit of effort into that, but it died a death.
Again, did I pitch it wrong? No LeftintheUS, Zippy or Tanya. But at post #17 there's one from Roo, who said....

........ which I think was rather nice of her.
That seems like a long time ago now.

I reckon the reason the thread was basicly ignored was people didn't like the way I had slanted it. I am for legalising those 11 or 12 million undocumented people living in the USA, but what to do about the millions more who will try to cross the border illegaly in the next decade, I wasn't so sure about.

But asking if people could see the point of view of those Americans who were hostile to illegal migrants was asking too much I think. (I didn't mean agree with them. Maybe just feel sorry for them in their ignorance).
When you are raised singing this Woody Guthrie song at school, (with the meaning twisted from how the songwriter meant it)......

........it's kind of understandable that many Americans think that America is just for them, not the other.

Anyway, that's an old thread, so let it sink back down into obscurity where it belongs.
I did try though.

"There are no such things as immigrants, just people."

Tony Benn. Tolpuddle 2007.

Nobody is going to disagree with that readytoswing.
But things can get a bit more complicated than that, wouldn't you agree?
We are over six billion, and massive sudden shifts in population around the world, could have some arkward effects.
Just like a Jumbo Jet full of passengers running up and down the airplane (in flight) might have.
The first world, meets the third world, along the US - Mexican border.
What are we to do about it was my question, ( that Zippy answers like this:)

That really is a crap attitude, Damon.

I reckon Zippy
goes down like Dida the AC Milan goalkeeper.

I reckon he'd rather go down like Ron Jeremy. No link.