ok so my life is now here. its not just a little adventure. on a day to day basis im doing exactly the same as you guys. getting up. going to work (except i do accept i probably have the most fun and for me work is nothing but pleasure ) coming home etc etc. because im not just back packing or safariing im seeing a side to africa that many people dont. hope this is making sence so far?
before i came here like many people i was raised to accept and respect cultural differences and i came with every intention of doing just that. i was very well aware that i would encounter difficulties and kind of had ideas about how i would deal with it all.
k so heres the problem. most of the differences involve subjegation, humiliation, disregard for human life, cruelty, neglect, physical abuse and humiliation.
im just going to interupt my ownself to say tinman leeds steve and klf dont u dare turn this into an opportunity to mock the pc brigade because that is not what this is about.
ive been thinking back on how england was years ago and how things in all countries that we now no longer tolerate were once accepted as tradition and culture. for eg - slavery and child labour, disenfranchisement,. it is only because people challenged cultural and traditional ideas and beliefs that these things were - supposedly- abolished. and look at fox hunting. i am living in a country where cruelty to people is unbelieveable and get told to respect culture? and yet people wont tolerate cruelty to foxes? but why not - its just culture and tradition isnt it? before anyone misunderstands the context of that i sabbed the new forest and surrey union for years. and would still do if i was at home.
before people tell me not to intefere because its a different country - i wonder how south africa would be right now if people didnt get involved with anti apartheid movements? how many people are involved in palistinian or korean campaigns?
i saw an seven year old child being held up in the street. no trousers or pants on, being caned by its mother and father. i was on a taxi that wouldnt stop and so could do nothing but i know people would say dont get involved its culture. well let me tell you. is it fuck. its abuse is what it is. we wouldnt tolerate this behaviour in other countries so why should the children her have to accept it?and if no one helps them challenge it does this really mean that children and indeed men and women in africa are going to have to continue to be subject to abuse and humiliation?
sorry children who are starving, beaten and humiliated, in out hearts we think its wrong but we dont like to offend cultural sensibilities.
fuck fuck fuck. if something is wrong it is wrong!!!! abuse and humiliation is wrong and should not be hidden behind culture because people do not want to offend.

Pink shay it may well suprise you to know i have been a vegetarian for over 20 years and i am extremely opposed to all forms of animal cruelty. This suprises many who meet me and dont know me as i box and bodybuild and dont look like the steriotypical vege (or what they think one looks like anyway)..Quite frankly anyone who gets there kicks out of torturing animals deserves all the bad luck karma can give out. In my mind they are scum.

Ther now i bet yopu didnt think id ever say anything like then did ya, but its 100% true. And im a true vege, not one of these idiots who cliam to be one but eat fish and animal fats.

Pink Shay.

It's a judgement call.
You want to get involved for all the right reasons, but at the end of the day you won't be there all the time.
Unless you are absolutely 100% sure that getting involved ins't going to inflame sensibilities and possibly lead to retribution being meted out to the victims the moment you depart from the situation, then , if I were you, I'd leave it.

Last year I was in Paris for the day and as I stopped to have a rest I noticed this tourist verbally attacking his partner.
he was huge, a hulking brute, and she was just this ordinanry sized woman who was in tears, and completely terrified by him.
He didn't strike her in the street, but it was obvious from the way she flinched when he moved that he wasn't averse to the practice.

I was a distance and watched them for a while, totally confused as to what I should do.
In the end I just let them be, figuring that for me, a man, to get involved would just mean that the moment I left he would take all his frustration out on her, probably making it worse.
I'd love to have tackled the bastard, but all that would have done would be to assuage my own guilt over the matter.Ultimately it wouldn't have helped the situation of the victim.

I know it's tough for you, but I'd advise just doing the little things you can to make a difference, leave the big stuff for others.
Don't underestimate just how much your living breathing example of being free thinking liberated woman is having on those around you.

Good luck.

Shay, the only way for you to survive there (in my opinion) is to try and stay away from what you know you can't change, and to concentrate on what you can.

If you were in London or in Detroit, you could intervene in a public child beating and it would probably be okay. But where you are, it could have catastrophic results for you and won't help the children. The best you can do is, when you are working with people and especially young people, promote peaceful child rearing. I fear anything else would be taken as more colonialism - you can make more of a difference in a less confrontational way.

Having said that, I'd probably have been deported by now. You're doing GOOD WORK. Keep on.

admiringly,

IMBarbara

Its a cruel world and you aint going to change it.I think P.Shay is torn mainly because she can't see a way of blaming the West for the behavour of other people.Normally other peoples behaviour is always OUR fault.Shes coming to realise that Human behaviour can be selfist ,unjust and cruel, irrespective of governments,regimes or things like capatism or other outside influences...etc.

Maybe you'll appreciate the values and culture of your own people a little bit more when you return. When you see the rest of the world,you realise were not so bad after all.


Seriously though,i think Barbara is giving good advice.Concentrate on helping individuals rather than the impossible of trying to change the 'big picture'.

Thank you for completely misinterpeting everything both Shay and I said. Damn.

I would like to chime in with the same. Alas Shay you can't change or stop every abuse and cruelty you see.
You have to accept you can't change everything. What I took away from my time in Africa is the simple conclusion that there are only 2 things that will change the entire continent for the good:
1) education
2) emancipation
I could explain the why of this, but we haven't got all day.
Anyway, since you are teaching girls, your are working on both key elements for a better future. Focus on that, focus on being the best possible teacher you can and you will do so much to improve their lot.

And have faith that things will change, slowly but surely.

As the girls said. You can do your bit at a grass roots level in the class room. Educate the mind body and soul of the kids in your care. Discuss their personal and social well being, attitudes and expectations. Personnally hun I am the type of girl who would step in and stop some one hurting a child here in England, but where you are right now, I think you would end up being the victim, and the child would end up getting a double beating for good measure.

Education is the key to change.....

to put a bit of perspective on the caning. I am 57, not so very old, and in my junior school children were slippered and caned.

I smacked my children but i wouldn't dream of smacking my grandchildren.

See, things do change And it's because of education, education education.

Teach your children well

Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I'd put this here. It is about culture, and some of the things pink shay said might apply.
Indigenous rights. How far should you go with them? ''How do we sleep when our beds are burning?'' asked the Midnight Oil song, and concluded, ''It belongs to them, let's give it back.''
Believing in equal rights for all, I have always had a problem with the idea of special status based on ethnicity.
That the left are often at the forefront of the campaign for aborigional rights, is something I find confusing.

Here's an example of the confusion. This article by Janet Albrechtsen in The Australian might seem to be uncaring and right wing. Some people have suggested that is her general outlook. (Whether she is or not would be an interesting topic - there are several of her columns available on that page).
But I agree with her main argument. Aborigional Australians should be become part of the nation, and not a people apart. Is that a right wing position?

And while I'm here, sort of on the same theme, this from a linguist I have tried to talk up, but so far no one has rated him. Apart from making a bit of a faux pax using the line ''I should try not to become an alcoholic'' I think his position on languages dying out is a pretty good one. Again, I don't think there is a clear left/right position.

OK, so not much going on here. Just as well I didn't start a new thread then.
Or maybe that's what I should have done instead of tacking this on to pink shay's very interesting topic.
I went to Australia and New Zealand twice each (5 months and 4 months in total) and found the debate about aborigional issues quite fascinating.
In New Zealand particularly, it gets very complicated, as Maori's make up a sizeable part of the population.
It's the diversity politics that really interested me.
And it really is politics. Adversarial politics.
Makes for interesting conversations if you're hitch hiking, or listening to the radio.

Damon. no worries about you "tacking on" i do it all the time
im always up for a talk bout "culture".
I had a very interesting talk with the "incoming volunteers". when people first go out volunteering one of their main "objectives?" (not sure if thats the right word) semed to be to respect and get involved in "the culture". people had such big fat issues because i wouldnt eat matooke or posha and didnt particuarly want to eat with my family- who i absoloutley love and miss.
brb to tell u more.

Well pink shay, some of the things I wondered, were your opinion of the country, or just the bit you were in.
Various terms are used to call places like Uganda - 'developing world', 'third world' etc.
Is it developing? Is it a place where there is happiness and hope? Is there civil society, and a calm sence of belonging?
In your local town - was it a nice place to go and have a day out? Same with Kampala, if you visited.
Uganda has its share of problems. Do men sit about with crates of Carling Black Label, and get a bit wild? Aids (I think) is a big problem. Are people sensible about their behavoir? In South Africa, (which is obviously a long way away), I saw lots of things that made me think the country had an unhappy future to go through - in the short term at least.
They were: the poverty, and the most blatant inequality.
Did you feel differently about Uganda?

I absoloutley loved it.
You know when youre in a place and you never want to wake up anywhere else?
well, ive found that place, and I never even really knew I was looking.
will brb to answer all your questions.

I have deleted a racist post that appeared in this thread and deleted the new member who wrote it.

The reasons I have also deleted the responses to the message are because they are nonsensical when the original post has disappeared, and it is our policy of not entering into debates with far-right activists, racists, ultra-nationalists, neo-Nazis, etc. on this web site, or allowing them a platform.

You make it sound so easy, Toby. Is there a way you might prevent new members from creating names like "billybraggwanker"?

or prevent them existing in the real world too?

Read closely, one might find that, of the above requests, one is slightly more attainable than the other.

Thank you Toby

If only. If only.

K Damon so a few days ago someone took one of my first posts from Uganda and used it to pour bile and contempt on an entire continent. (thankyou Toby for deleting it) and im sad to confess if you had asked me all these questions a year ago my answers would have been totally different.
For the first few months i absoloutley hated Uganda. I was kind of hoping that it would get nasty during the elections because I was wanting a legitimate excuse to come back here.
(Although looking back, lots of my feelings were probably due to the family I was living with at the time and my total isolation).
The problem was I was still seeing everything through western eyes and you just cant do that. It just makes you tired, angry and confrontational all the time. As soon as I went to my lovely family and Kabawo school things changed for me totally. No, actually i think i changed. There was no snobbery or pretentiousness in my family so i found it very very easy to really intergrate with all the local people and make hundreds of new friends.(this had been a huge problem before) I no longer felt the need to run away to ex-pat places. Home was always full of people of all sizes and my time was spent mainly between home and school. Home was not just a house but the entire surrounding area. School was not just the students but all the locals kids who didnt go to our school, all the parents, infact everyone in the area really. Sorry, im getting a bit emotional here. So, what im saying is I was no longer just a muzungu but "one of us, an African princess" (as my friends would say, prompted by me of course )

The deleted post mentioned the beating of children and Africans being "savages". I was incredibly angry with it and will never be comfortable with it, and will continue to try to change it slowly by slowly but ive actually realised something. Well, i knew it before but just never thought of it. I didnt stop to think that the problem may actually have been becuase i was having to deal with witnessing it on a daily basis. Child beating is no more prevalent than it is in England, its just that the public are "protected" from it here so we dont have to deal with it. The beatings are also usually done for discipling purposes (eg- to stop a child playing with a panga or a charcoal burner) rather than through the frustrations of an adult who just cant control his/her temper. Then, once its done, thats it. its done.
Not justifying it atall im just saying that I eventually came to understand that actually, BBW, AFRICANS DO NOT HAVE THE MONOPOLY ON CHILD ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brb

Damon, you said was where i lived a nice place to have a day out? this is where i used to spend my evenings. Its biras shop. A group of us used to go sit there every night and chat, listen to music and just watch the world go by. it was fantastic. makes me do this

I was curious as to whether it was a happy place. Being that poor must have some serious consequences.
What with aids and the likes of the lords resistance army, and I'm sure, high unemployment. I just wondered if it was really grim like I've seen in South Africa. I went to Soweto once (on my own), and as soon as I got out of the mini bus taxi, two lovely middle aged women came straight over to me and said I couldn't stay there, it was too dangerous. They told me to get back in the taxi and leave. I did.
Is it like that in parts of Uganda?

Damon, im never quite sure whether to take your posts seriously or not but as im always happy to talk about Uganda, im going to reply anyway.
When im asked questions about poverty it sometimes makes me a bit nervous for two reasons. People always tend to almost "glamorise" African poverty. Im not usre if thats the right word but stick with me and hopefuly I can explain. You always see pictures of pot bellied children with no shoes or clothes and really big brown sad looking eyes. Everyone always assumes theyre hungry. theyre always portrayed as "helpless victims". well, let me tell you about those kids.Theyre not very often hungry. They spend all day being fed by people all around where they live. Theres absoloutley no point in them wearing "nice" clothes and shoes bacause they spend their days running about outside everywhere and its far too hot to wear shoes. im convinced that the big sad eyes you always see are digitally manipulated because all the kids i saw every day were usually running round happy and laughing. theyre very strong and very independent and in terms of life skills actually develop alot faster than western kids. That doesnt mean they dont have a childhood,its just a different sort, thats all. they play with chicken heads as opposed to mother care and fisher price toys.
and of course, i am just talking about my kids here. the simple truth of it is, yes there is poverty, but do you know what, people just get on and live.
I also know children who were child soldiers in the north. I can totally understand why it makes people sad and angy and want to scream and shout and cry. Sometimes it still has that effect on me. I saw the dead eyes, the sometimes distant, far away looks on their faces. I heard the dead tone in their voices. I saw their total apathy. I saw, you couldnt even call it their total distrust of people because that would involve some kind of feeling. but, living with them,seeing how even they just got on and lived had a huge impact on me. It hasn,t hardened me to it all it,s just that Ive spent a year of my life with people whose attitude to the most horrendous life circumstances is "there,s nothing to do". They think people in the west are totally over indulged - including the children.
sorry, ive probably totally gone off on a tangent. lol. This one could run and run.

Im not quite sure why people always think of Africa as synomonous with AIDS. well actually, I can understand why but, in Uganda traffic and malaria are far bigger killers.
Every day i was with people who had been affected by AIDS somehow. Also with children who were orphans because of malaria and road traffic accidents. I guess though that "orphans of AIDS" is more marketable than "orphans of road traffic". thats going back to what I said earlier about it all being glamorised. Hope that makes sence.

I thought I was being quite sensible in my last post pink shay. Anyway, what you said was interesting. I agree about that glamorising of poverty thing you said. Are the likes of Oxfam and Save the Children guilty of that. (They always use those kinds of immages in their litrature).
Also I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the work of western aid agencies. Some are better than others I suppose. About whether people are happy or not I thought was a fair question, as for example in South Africa (different country of course) I saw what I thought was a lot of unhappiness. Life for so many was such a struggle. But people could see the wealth of the rich people who lived behind high walls and electric fences.
Maybe there's less inequality in Uganda.
And the roads in South Africa were deadly too. 15,000 were killed there last year. Some people said they were scared to have to commute long distances to their jobs in those dangerous mini-bus taxis.

I have a feeling my last post might have been seen as a bit crass - comparing Uganda, with South Africa, in some of the difficulties those countries face.

pink shay, I don't know if you've heard of a book called 'dark star safari' by Paul Theroux. A few years ago, he travelled through Africa, including some time revisiting Uganda, where he had worked as a teacher in the 1960's (to avoid the Vietnam war). He goes back to the place he taught, and finds some of his former students. He does a lot of comparing between Uganda then and now.
I got it out of the library a few days ago and have been re-reading it.

On second thoughts maybe that book by Paul Theroux is one that you shouldn't look at pink shay.
I get the feeling that it would wind you up big time. (Here's an excerpt)

I've been enjoying rereading it, with my Times world atlas spread out on the table - following his progress.
He doesn't hold back on giving his opinions. Like, on getting to Dar es Salaam in Tanzania, he laments the state of the African city, describing them as (basicly) unfit for human habitation. Then describes the frustration of trying to get his visa in the passport office in Dar. In a country with such high unemployment, he found government workers (like in the passport office) to be almost useless. Most people with any ambition dreamed of leaving the country.

In Kampala, the university where he had taught at in the 60's was now a shadow of it's former self. Even new buildings seemd to decay quickly. Because they weren't maintained.

This sounds rather negative, and I'm not saying I agree with his opinions, as I haven't been to that part of Africa. But it's a good tale, and makes me want to go there too.

Damon. Im slowly working my way through all your questions. Ive got so much to say im getting in a pickle getting it all out.
When first I got there, I was so bloddy angry about everything. the poverty, the abuse etc. I remember going to a slum village and being really confused by my feelings. On one hand i thought "why on earth should people have to live like this". I saw the children with no clothes or shoes, i saw the women and children carrying jerrycans of water from the well, the huge potholes, the dust and piles of rubbish everywhere, the tiny tiny rooms where entire families lived, the women doing all the washing and cooking outside.
When i went back again, several months later and looked again I saw that all the women working outside were out in the sunshine, singing and talking to their friends. The kids would rather have no shoes on cause then they wouldnt get into trouble for making them dirty. I stopped seeing huge piles of rubbish and instead saw piles of old food with goats, chickens, dogs and cows climbing all over them. I stopped seeing potholes and saw holes in the roads where the kids played.

I think the thing about Uganda is it looks so much different if you stop looking at it through western eyes.
Sorry, i never answered any of your questions did i?
brb.

I was glad to see you post there pink shay.
I thought you'd got the hump because you hadn't liked what I'd said.

I know what you mean about first impressions of a place (like Uganda), and seeing it differently after spending time there.
But I'm not sure I agree with you. I don't wan't to say I disagree strongly, but people shouldn't HAVE to live like that. Having a fridge in the tropics would make life so much easier. Keep food fresher and healthier etc.
I understand what you say about the simple life. The close-knit communal village life. My parents had that 50 years ago in rural Ireland. They migrated to London because they wanted a different kind of life. Just like these people from West Africa are risking their lives for.

All over the world people are migrating to cities from the countryside, because they want jobs and a better standard of living. Subsistance farming I would imagine, is not the greatest way to live.

I except that things are lost when development takes place. Modern Ireland is a much more a bland place than I remember from holidays as a kid. It's become like anywhere else in the west. But what else would you expect. People don't wan't to milk 20 cows by hand, twice a day, like my gandfather used to.

What would you think about Uganda having good roads, proper pavements, and well built houses, with all mod-cons?
When people can afford shoes, they usually want them. Or sandals or flip flops anyway.
Five years ago I was passing through Mbabane (the capital of Swaziland). And was surprised to find in the middle of this (poor) african town, a small air conditioned shopping mall, with a food court with fast food places in it. In the afternoon it was full of school kids having their cokes and ice creams, and being like teenagers the world over. It felt a bit surreal, as outside it was ''real'' Africa.
By the way, because of your posts, I want to go to Uganda.

not atall Damon.
[quote]Having a fridge in the tropics would make life so much easier. Keep food fresher and healthier etc.
[/quote
how would having a fridge help when theres no electricity? lots of people keep animals and grow their own fruit and veg. you dont walk for one minute without seeing people selling fresh produce.
Also, fridges kind of imply doing things in advance - shopping, deciding what youre going to buy etc. Things there are preety much done on a day to day basis! you buy/peel/cook what you need on the day.

On christmas day we ten of our chickens tied up to the fence in a row and they were slaughtered during the day as people came to buy their christmas dinner.
it got down to the last three and suddenly they dissapeared. i knew they hadnt been slaughtered- the kids would have told me . then i saw they had all buried under the fence to hide! theyd dug little holes and everything!

Dont get me wrong. im not for one minute glamorising poverty. I also know that it is very easy for me to idealise it all because I always have the choice not to be there.

im happy you want to go! thats so very cool! come visit me cause i bet i will be there before you are

brb

Yes that old chestnut again I'm afraid. Thought I'd give it one last go as I was reading in the news about another protest in Canada by Mohawk Indians (or First Canadians I think they call them there).

As I said before, I don't really see aboriginal rights as progressive, if those rights are not about equality, but about exclusivity and seperatism.

It's not an opinion I hold that strongly, just something that seems to be correct from the way I'm looking at it right now.

Obvious. Aboriginal rights are anti-establishment, therefore progressive.

You see Sarah, sometimes it's not so easy to tell what is wit and sarcasm, and what might be a guenuinly held opinion. Here I'll go for the former - as the latter would be a bit sad.
(I mean, the crusties from the poll tax riot were anti-establishment, but you wouldn't call them progressive).

Damon - who are you talking to?
I think this is the first time I've posted in this thread and I'm assuming you mean Andy.
Really, we're quite easy to tell apart...

I was talking to you Sarah, about Andy's post. I know you haven't been on here - I was just saying that it's sometimes difficult to tell if a person is being serious or not. You said I couldn't detect sarcasm.
I was saying, I couldn't tell what he was saying here, and that it wasn't always easy.
But thought It was probably some joke that I didn't get (again).

See, Damon? See what I'm talking about here?

I was being deadly serious.

nevermind. just being odd.

I bet it was another gem Zippy
And you and your wink Andy, means I'm still not sure if you're joking or not.
But ....... Whatever. I have read some pretty strange things on the forum, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was Andy's position. Some of the British left were quite sympathetic to Irish republicanism for the same reason. That because a section of the working class had declared war on the British state ......etc etc.

But I wouldn't have thought you could say the same about ethnic exceptionalism, which is what you could argue Aboriginal rights are about.
You end up with ridiculous claims and counter claims as to who is what and who has rights to what.
I heard about some small tribe in New England who were making loads of money from a casino, and there was controversy as there were people who said they too were members of that tribe, and so deserved a share of the money.
In New Zealand, I remember a south island tribe was coming to some form of settlement with the Crown, but a smaller tribe claimed that they were the true owners of the area. The tribe the Crown was dealing with were north islanders who had come down and killed most of the original south island tribe years before the Brits turned up.

And as for encouraging (or enabling) Australian Aboriginals to live in the most far flung places, away from social services ...... I'd say that what Janet Albrechtsen said here sounds about right.

I like the line where she says: ''Modernity is an interdependent package, not a smorgasboord to be nibbled at ones convenience'' which was her reply to the call by an Aboriginal leader that social services should be projected out into the most distant of places, so that people could still practice their nomadic life, and have access to those services.
She said: ''The nomadic ideal is killing the indigenous. Nothing short of fundamental cultural change will save Aboriginal Australians.''

That's really interesting. I read "Songlines" by Bruce Chatwin a few years ago and that offered an interesting insight into aboriginal life style, religion and philosophy. I am genuinely puzzled by the whole progress thing. Is it important to protect traditional ways of life, like the Welsh language or the aboriginal walkabout? I tend to think it is from the point of view of cherishing human roots and heritage.

Let's not forget the indigenous travelling culture of the UK, which has basically been compelled to conform to "settled" life if they want any sort of state support. And that's not about having to bring services into far-flung places, it's about a minority being compelled to share the social norms of a majority which doesn't respect their way of life.

Commence pikey-bashing at your convenience...

Wouldn't dream of it. Anyway, pikeys are different from real travellers. What you said about respect is the key in this question I think.

A couple of years ago, I went to Avebury on what turned out to be Midsummer Day. Standing in the middle of the village was Uther Pendragon. He was in his robes, carried his staff and looked a very imposing figure. He may be a nutcase, believing, as he does, that he is the reincarnation of King Arthur's father, but he certainly had more about him than the twattish pikeys who were swigging White Lightning from bottles and being totally unpleasant to those who had turned up to celebrate the solstice genuinely.

I think that this debate often overlooks the fact that culture is naturally fluid and dynamic; in a "multicultural society" a degree of homogenisation is inevitable over time, and it isn't based on the "indigenous" culture absorbing other cultures which consequently disappear - look at the prevalence of Yiddish vocabulary in cockney dialect, or the way modern English youth culture includes elements of African-Carribean music and language.

And culture would not stand still even in a society that was "mono-ethnic": British Music Hall culture as it existed a century ago is virtually extinct, but listening again to "New Boots and Panties" I was struck by how much Ian Dury's songwriting and performance owed to Music Hall, though the music blends funk, rock and roll, reggae, et cetera.

Cultures develop, intertwine and mutate naturally, and I'm not convinced that "preserving" them is practicable even if it's desirable: it reduces what is a living thing to a museum exhibit.

Do you have to be so darn sensible all the time JB?
I was trying to get people to start gushing about the need to preserve aboriginal culture even at it's most extreme form, as it was somehow better than modernity. Or as AndyL put it ''the whole progress thing.''
That some Australian Aboriginal people live so far out in the bush that their children suffer serious health problems, and don't have propper education is seen by some as OK, because that's what 'they' have done for thousands of years.
If some non indigenous back to nature types tried to to the same thing, their children might be taken in to care. As the thread title says: ''tis just culture''

It was the Janet Albrechtsen article that I found most interesting, as she tackles this issue head on.
In Aus and New Zealand, the debate about Aboriginal rights just goes on for ever. And there is so much wooly tosh spoken by the 'pro rights' side, that it is (unfortunately) the right (people like Albrechtsen) that call time on some of the nonsense.
In New Zealand I heard for example, a Maori elder on the radio, making two suggestions.
He said Maoris should be allowed to grow and sell marijuana, as so many from their community were in prison for doing so, and in some of the isolated places they lived, that was the only way to make money.
Second, that because Maoris died ten years earlier than the general population on average, they should get their old age pensions ten years earlier too. So that they would have equal time receiving it.
Sometimes you have to say: ''With the greatest of respect - that's a load of rubbish''

And as for preserving gypsy culture, I'm not sure about that either.
If a culture has a tradition (like has been common amongst Irish Travellers) that the children go to schools here and there, up to about the age of 12, then drop out - I would say that's a tradition that the authorities have to try to end.

There are people who work with the travelling community to try and maintain their educations, even for families who still travel - I believe there are a few kids who have recently gone on to university, one to Cambridge. As many families travel during the summer and settle in the winter, this isn't as diffficult as it might be - the difficulties often come from the local communtiies who don't want their kids at school with "pikeys".

Importantly, the successful community liaison officers I know are of traveller heritage themselves and understand and respect their traditions.

It's obviously a bit dodgy to go around ''pikey bashing'' - as some people might like to call any critisism of preserving gypsy culture in modern europe.
Gypsys or travellers in the UK and Ireland (and their supporters) have done like everyone else does these days, and have gone for the ''human rights'' PR angle. PC has been brought into the equation - which makes any discussion more problamatic than it need be.
From what I have seen of the culture of Irish Travellers, I would say it's not a culture that should be given a special status, that might help it survive as it is or has been. Better for it to become more like the mainstream.
When I lived in Dublin for a while some yeas ago, I used to do deliveries around the greater Dublin area, and was always gobsmacked when I would pass traveller sites.
The first time I visited this timber yard that was up a country lane on the edge of the city, all of a sudden the trees and hedges were full of plastic bags, and I thought ''What the f...?'' Then a bit further on there were a group of caravans and a ginormous pile of rubbish. In the mornings there would be a few children waiting on the road outside, for the school bus to come.
I couldn't understand why the authorities didn't just go in there and sieze their vans untill they payed big fines for wrecking the countryside with their fly tipping.
At another place I used to go (near the guinness brewery) there was a council run site, and according to the guys who worked at the industrial unit, the people from the site were the neighbours from hell.
When people went home in the evening, the locals from the site would climb over the wall and do what ever they liked. Which went from nicking stuff to vandalism to starting fires.
The police were afraid to do anything about them I was told.

Is it out of order for me to say this? It sounds like the usual 'prejudice' you get in the tabloid press.
But in the six months I did that delivery job, I would see traveller camps every day, and couldn't help looking.
Like one morning I'd see some caravans had moved onto the green near Blanchardstown, and a couple of days later I'd marvel at how they'd managed to make such a mess so quickly. I used to even park up for a few minutes and go for a closer look.
Obviously the regular homeowners who were paying these guys to take away their rubbish were also to blame. But there is something not right about that aspect of the Irish Traveller culture.
And to say it's just ''a few bad apples'' or whatever, is dodging the issue.

When I heard the occasional radio programme about what the government and councils were doing to bring more order to the movement around the country of travellers, by making official and semi-offical sites available, the conversation would be tortuous.
If locals objected to new sites, the charges of prejudice and hatred of gypsy's were soon raised.

there's a settled traveller site in Grantham, which seems to co-exist well enough with its neighbours. Not the tidiest little place, but there are plenty of scruffy places around where the inhabitants aren't travellers. There are also plenty of people who engage in fly-tipping in the countryside who aren't travellers. When this used to happen on my friends' farm, they'd open up the rubbish and look for post with addresses on. They'd then take the rubbish to the address on the post and dump it in their drive. Still, despite the anti-social behaviour of the fly-tippers, no one was threatening to seize their homes or destroy their culture in return...

The travelling community in britain has been the custodian of this country's oral culture. If it weren't for them half the traditional songs and tunes, not to mention dance cultures, never would have survived. That's true in Ireland as well. Maybe people need to understand the positive contributions of gypsy culture a bit more.

"I would say it's not a culture that should be given a special status, that might help it survive as it is or has been. Better for it to become more like the mainstream."

That's not your choice to make, though, is it? Surely everyone has the right to self-identification and self-determination. If I went round to all the neighbourhoods in the country and condemned everyone who wasn't just like me, and further decided they'd be better off if they became more like me, the world would be quite a scary place - trust me.

I know a very nice man called George, who travels with a traditional caravan and horses. His caravan is beautifully painted, his horses are tethered by the side of the road, he is always neatly turned out in flat cap and kerchief, and he comes to the pub in my village.

Now, you'll say, "Ah, but he's different. if all gypsies were like that..." but of course a few decades ago all gypsies WERE like that. And he has stories of persecution that go back 70 years and beyond, to how his parents and grandparents were treated. People who were just like him.

Fact is, people have always found reasons to hate gypsies, because they choose to live differently and don't conform to society's expectations. Live and let live.

I'm all for a live and let live attitude too. An old flatmate of mine used to live in a bus and had been at the famous battle of the beanfield near stonehenge. I was down there myself right right around this time, and camped a night at the Savernake Forrest amongst the''peace convoy''. The police were like you'd expect from them days. But I do remember being somewhat taken aback by a 12 year old kid walking through the camp calling out: ''Acid, got some good acid here.''

I wonder if people don't think that Roma people from eastern europe who have moved to Britain recently, are going to have to ''go with the flow'' a bit more than they might have thought about before they moved here.
Adapt to their new environment. When I was working in Dublin as I mentioned above, Romanian Roma were a very visable group. God knows how some of them found this busy six way traffic light junction, miles west of the city center. They worked the long delay at the lights to the max. Big issue selling, begging with the babies, and windscreen washing.
If they are going to stay in Ireland, you'd have to say that some intergration would be requierd.

There's a gypsy site on an industrial estate I often go to, in south London. It seems to work well. They keep ponies, and it looks clean. You see the guys trotting the ponies, in a trap, on the roads. And that's fine.
They are part of the community.
I went to the Ballinasloe horse fair about 15 years ago, and I could see there was a distinct sort of culture there. Not to be insulted, but how much should the state help it to continue? That's all.