The people have spoken but what have they said?
Even the most casual observer of the Palestine situation would have realised that Hamas would do well in these elections. Not many thought they'd do this well but the democratic dice have been rolled and now it has to be dealt with.
Should the U.S. and U.K negotiate with a democratically elected Hamas Government?
What effect will this have on the forthcoming Israeli election?
What now for the road map?
What odds will you get in William Hill on the length of time the new Hamas Prime Minister will be in office before an assassination attempt by…?
Let's try and keep this clean.
Full Version: Palestinian Elections
QUOTE(Dickie @ Jan 27 2006, 09:48 AM)
The people have spoken but what have they said?
Even the most casual observer of the Palestine situation would have realised that Hamas would do well in these elections. Not many thought they'd do this well but the democratic dice have been rolled and now it has to be dealt with.
Should the U.S. and U.K negotiate with a democratically elected Hamas Government? Not unless Hamas stop terrorist activities.
What effect will this have on the forthcoming Israeli election? Netenyahu's campaign will be boosted.
What now for the road map? Hardly any hope know that the palastinians have elected Hamas.
What odds will you get in William Hill on the length of time the new Hamas Prime Minister will be in office before an assassination attempt by…? Probably depends directly on the level and number of terrorist atrocities carried out against Israel under Hamas's leadership.
Let's try and keep this clean.I'm sure most on here would be less than happy if Israel elected a extremist party to goven them.How do you all feel about Palastinians elcting an extremist party to govern them.Its going to entrench both sides.Surely the palastinian people have rejected any peace process by electing Hamas.Just as Irsael's population will reject the process,if they vote for a far-right candidate in the up coming elections.Whatever the reason the palastinian people voted for Hamas (and i know there is a lot of justified anger),they must have realised that they were voting themselves many more years of misery and conflict,by doing so.
Even the most casual observer of the Palestine situation would have realised that Hamas would do well in these elections. Not many thought they'd do this well but the democratic dice have been rolled and now it has to be dealt with.
Should the U.S. and U.K negotiate with a democratically elected Hamas Government? Not unless Hamas stop terrorist activities.
What effect will this have on the forthcoming Israeli election? Netenyahu's campaign will be boosted.
What now for the road map? Hardly any hope know that the palastinians have elected Hamas.
What odds will you get in William Hill on the length of time the new Hamas Prime Minister will be in office before an assassination attempt by…? Probably depends directly on the level and number of terrorist atrocities carried out against Israel under Hamas's leadership.
Let's try and keep this clean.I'm sure most on here would be less than happy if Israel elected a extremist party to goven them.How do you all feel about Palastinians elcting an extremist party to govern them.Its going to entrench both sides.Surely the palastinian people have rejected any peace process by electing Hamas.Just as Irsael's population will reject the process,if they vote for a far-right candidate in the up coming elections.Whatever the reason the palastinian people voted for Hamas (and i know there is a lot of justified anger),they must have realised that they were voting themselves many more years of misery and conflict,by doing so.
QUOTE
Should the U.S. and U.K negotiate with a democratically elected Hamas Government?
The joke answer:
As a diplomat, can you imagine drawing the short straw on that one? What a crap job. Negotiating for peace with people who:
a. don't want it and
b. tend to explode in public places.
The serious answer:
Nah, they can't do it. Palestine, which has been royally screwed over the years by others, just screwed itself. They thought they were isolated before? Now even the aid they've been receiving from the US and Europe is threatened. Under the laws of both countries it might now have to be stopped. How can money be given to a country run by an organisation whose stated purpose is the total destruction of its closest neighbour?
I imagine the aid will have to be routed through NGOs, which makes their work harder, and following the aid harder, and helping the poor harder.
Meanwhile, any negotiations will have to take place through intermediaries, such as Egypt, Jordan and Turkey, which will slow the process down.
And they probably just ensured that Benjamin 'You lookin' at me??' Netanyahu, who hates their bomb-loving asses, gets elected to replace Sharon, which will slow down any peace progress to a standstill.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 27 2006, 12:20 PM)
QUOTE
Should the U.S. and U.K negotiate with a democratically elected Hamas Government?
The joke answer:
As a diplomat, can you imagine drawing the short straw on that one? What a crap job. Negotiating for peace with people who:
a. don't want it and
b. tend to explode in public places.
The serious answer:
Nah, they can't do it. Palestine, which has been royally screwed over the years by others, just screwed itself. They thought they were isolated before? Now even the aid they've been receiving from the US and Europe is threatened. Under the laws of both countries it might now have to be stopped. How can money be given to a country run by an organisation whose stated purpose is the total destruction of its closest neighbour?
I imagine the aid will have to be routed through NGOs, which makes their work harder, and following the aid harder, and helping the poor harder.
Meanwhile, any negotiations will have to take place through intermediaries, such as Egypt, Jordan and Turkey, which will slow the process down.
And they probably just ensured that Benjamin 'You lookin' at me??' Netanyahu, who hates their bomb-loving asses, gets elected to replace Sharon, which will slow down any peace progress to a standstill.
All very unfortunate - though to be honest I didn't think much of either of their main choices. Fatah standing for total corruption, malfeasance and two faced hypocracy about terrorism Vs Hamas for open encouragement to terrorism and (possibly) less corruption.
Two things to say.
1. Serves the Israelis right for helping to create and encorouge Hamas in the first place.
2. The Israeli's dealt with Hizbollah, why not Hamas. Despite rhetoric from all sides they will talk.
1. Serves the Israelis right for helping to create and encorouge Hamas in the first place.
2. The Israeli's dealt with Hizbollah, why not Hamas. Despite rhetoric from all sides they will talk.
There is no evidencial proof the Israel helped set up Hamas.Israel may have been slightly lenient on Hamas when the organisation first formed, compared to the great enermy at the time The PLO.Israel mistakenly believed Hamas would be less extreme than the PLO.
You say serve the Israeli's right! It will be the ordinary Palastinians that will suffer the most from this election reselt,especially in the long term.
Some years ago, someone said this harsh statement against the Palastian people.Which i believe has some truth in it.
'The palastinaian people have been treated harshly and unfairly,but until ordinary Palastinains start loving their own children more than they hate Israel,they will never find peace'.
You say serve the Israeli's right! It will be the ordinary Palastinians that will suffer the most from this election reselt,especially in the long term.
Some years ago, someone said this harsh statement against the Palastian people.Which i believe has some truth in it.
'The palastinaian people have been treated harshly and unfairly,but until ordinary Palastinains start loving their own children more than they hate Israel,they will never find peace'.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 27 2006, 02:46 PM)
There is no evidencial proof the Israel helped set up Hamas.Israel may have been slightly lenient on Hamas when the organisation first formed, compared to the great enermy at the time The PLO.Israel mistakenly believed Hamas would be less extreme than the PLO.
You say serve the Israeli's right! It will be the ordinary Palastinians that will suffer the most from this election reselt,especially in the long term.
Some years ago, someone said this harsh statement against the Palastian people.Which i believe has some truth in it.
'The palastinaian people have been treated harshly and unfairly,but until ordinary Palastinains start loving their own children more than they hate Israel,they will never find peace'.
You say serve the Israeli's right! It will be the ordinary Palastinians that will suffer the most from this election reselt,especially in the long term.
Some years ago, someone said this harsh statement against the Palastian people.Which i believe has some truth in it.
'The palastinaian people have been treated harshly and unfairly,but until ordinary Palastinains start loving their own children more than they hate Israel,they will never find peace'.
I didn't say set-up - I said helped to create and encourage. Which they did. Hamas was built up at a time when the PLO was being heavily repressed - the Isreali occupiers allowed Hamas to set up an Islamic university and allowed them to be funded at the same time as Mossad was conducting extra-judicial assasinations of PLO leaders (did you not see the documentary on Channel 4 last night - the interview with Ehud Barak was incredible).
The Israeli right has always helped Hamas, both to divide and rule and because Hamas are always guaranteed to throw the spanner in the works of any peace settlement which might mean the creation of a seperate Palestine.
If the Israeli's weren't helping Hamas why did Binyamin Netanyahu release Sheik Yassin from a life sentence in 1997?
Actually, come to think of it, the Israeli right are probably delighted by Hamas's success.
The picture on the front cover of the Guardian of a large crowd of Hamas supporters has just depressed me not a single women in sight, not a positive sign of womens place in a Hamas/Islamist Palestine.
The Palestinian people have just delayed peace 10 or 20 years I suspect.
The Palestinian people have just delayed peace 10 or 20 years I suspect.
QUOTE(Mick H @ Jan 27 2006, 04:28 PM)
The Palestinian people have just delayed peace 10 or 20 years I suspect.
What peace? like the peace process helped them in the 1st place under the PLO. israel is rubbing its hand and looking forward to kicking off a civil war between the palestinians.
QUOTE
israel is rubbing its hand and looking forward to kicking off a civil war between the palestinians.
QUOTE
Enraged Fatah Members Riot After Defeat
Violence bodes ill for a peaceful handover of power. The Palestinian Authority president says he will ask Hamas to form a government.
By Laura King, LA Times Staff Writer
GAZA CITY — Street clashes erupted in the Gaza Strip on Friday in the wake of the militant Islamist group Hamas' overwhelming victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections, raising the specter of a wider outbreak of violence during the coming transition of power.
Thousands of activists from the defeated Fatah movement torched cars outside the Palestinian parliament building in the center of Gaza City, fired shots into the air and chanted angry slogans denouncing their own leaders, whom they blame for the party's stunning loss after four decades of unchallenged rule.
Fatah-linked gunmen also marched menacingly past Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' villa in Gaza City, but he was not there at the time. He has remained at his West Bank headquarters in Ramallah since Wednesday's elections, which sent shock waves through the region and has imperiled prospects for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Abbas spoke to reporters Friday, saying he would ask Hamas, as the holder of the majority of the parliamentary seats, to form a government, but gave no timetable for his request.
"We are consulting and in contact with all the Palestinian groups, and definitely, at the appropriate time, the biggest party will form the Cabinet," Abbas said.
In a confrontation Friday near the town of Khan Yunis in the south of Gaza, loyalists from Fatah and Hamas faced off in a battle that escalated from stone-throwing to an exchange of gunfire. Three people were reported injured.
The clashes were neither as large nor lethal as other episodes of unrest that have gripped Gaza in recent months since Israeli forces withdrew. But Friday's tumult boded ill for a peaceful handover of governance by Fatah — with all the material privileges it affords — to Hamas.
The Palestinian Authority, until now controlled by Fatah, has tens of thousands of men under arms in the various branches of its security forces. In addition, hundreds of rogue gunmen of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade also consider themselves Fatah loyalists but routinely use force and intimidation to demand jobs and other perquisites.
Public anger about corruption within the Palestinian Authority was a prime factor in Hamas' victory, but many observers are warning that those who accumulated wealth and privilege under Fatah's auspices are unlikely to give it up without a fight.
"It's easy [for Palestinian voters] to say, 'You are corrupt, and we are fed up with you,' but it is harder to live by that slogan when the corrupt ruling class have an armed militia," Amnon Danker, the editor of the Israeli newspaper Maariv, wrote in Friday's editions.
Ideological differences between the secular-minded Fatah, which has sought an accord with Israel, and rigorously Islamist Hamas, which is sworn to the Jewish state's destruction, could also boil over into confrontation in the coming days and weeks.
The clash outside Khan Yunis, in the village of Bani Sohila, was triggered when a mosque preacher affiliated with Fatah used his Friday sermon to denounce Hamas as dupes of Israel.
In addition, loyalty to either Fatah or Hamas tends to break down along clan lines in Gaza, so political disputes can easily turn into amped-up family feuds, often with weaponry involved.
Some disgruntled losing candidates from Fatah have their own armed following, and they have begun to marshal these forces.
Samir Mashrawi, a leader of Friday's street protests, lost what had been considered a safe parliamentary seat in his Gaza City district. Addressing the marchers, Mashrawi, who has ties to an Al Aqsa offshoot, demanded the resignation of members of Fatah's Central Committee.
Other protesters have made death threats against Fatah leaders if they enter into a governing coalition with Hamas.
Fatah officials have so far rebuffed overtures to form a parliamentary alliance with Hamas, but Hamas leader Ismail Haniya said Friday that he had requested a meeting with Abbas in the next few days to discuss a "political partnership."
"We will keep those channels open and continue to stress that Hamas wishes to work with everyone," Haniya, who headed the Hamas candidate slate, said after attending prayers in the Gaza refugee camp where he lives.
Abbas, in Ramallah, did not specifically mention Haniya's overture or any planned meeting. The Palestinian leader, who was elected a year ago, will remain in his post, but he has threatened to step down if he can't continue his program of seeking an agreement with Israel leading to Palestinian statehood.
Fatah officials fear an explosion of anger from their ranks if they were to ally with Hamas in the legislature or Cabinet. Palestinian security chief Mohammed Dahlan, one of the few Fatah members in Gaza to hang onto his parliamentary seat, assured restive demonstrators that Fatah "will not enter the coming government."
Hamas, meanwhile, is under growing international pressure to end its calls for the destruction of Israel and recognize the Jewish state.
Although Haniya and other pragmatists in the group have sought to telegraph the possibility of softening Hamas' stance, hard-liners such as newly elected legislator Mahmoud Zahar continue to insist there are no such plans.
"Why would we do that?" he asked, speaking to reporters in Gaza. "Is Israel ready to recognize the right of return for Palestinians? Is Israel ready to recognize our independent state, including Jerusalem as its capital?"
Perhaps seeking to avoid inflaming tensions with Fatah, Hamas avoided large-scale victory celebrations in Gaza on Thursday, the day the election results were announced. On Friday, it held its first major rally since the vote but staged it in the smaller town of Khan Yunis rather than Gaza City.
Thousands of Hamas supporters turned out, waving flags and wearing baseball caps in the movement's color, green. In line with the group's strict Islamic conservatism, the women who took part stayed separate from the men.
In Israel, where the implications of the elections are still being digested, Friday brought more public debate about the intentions of Hamas, which at least temporarily halted its suicide bombing campaign in Israel more than a year ago.
A former head of Israel's Shin Bet domestic security service, Avi Dichter, predicted that with its electoral success, the group would continue to observe an informal period of calm, even if it refuses to announce it will do so.
"The minute they become a partner in the Palestinian government, reality will become a lot more complicated for them than when they were a terror organization alone," Dichter told Army Radio.
Of immediate concern to Palestinians is the prospect of a foreign financial aid cutoff when a Hamas-led government takes over. U.S. law prohibits the use of American funds by groups, including Hamas, that have been designated terrorist organizations.
Former President Carter, who traveled to the region to serve as an election observer, met Friday with Abbas and said afterward that a sudden termination of aid "would create an element of chaos."
Violence bodes ill for a peaceful handover of power. The Palestinian Authority president says he will ask Hamas to form a government.
By Laura King, LA Times Staff Writer
GAZA CITY — Street clashes erupted in the Gaza Strip on Friday in the wake of the militant Islamist group Hamas' overwhelming victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections, raising the specter of a wider outbreak of violence during the coming transition of power.
Thousands of activists from the defeated Fatah movement torched cars outside the Palestinian parliament building in the center of Gaza City, fired shots into the air and chanted angry slogans denouncing their own leaders, whom they blame for the party's stunning loss after four decades of unchallenged rule.
Fatah-linked gunmen also marched menacingly past Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' villa in Gaza City, but he was not there at the time. He has remained at his West Bank headquarters in Ramallah since Wednesday's elections, which sent shock waves through the region and has imperiled prospects for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Abbas spoke to reporters Friday, saying he would ask Hamas, as the holder of the majority of the parliamentary seats, to form a government, but gave no timetable for his request.
"We are consulting and in contact with all the Palestinian groups, and definitely, at the appropriate time, the biggest party will form the Cabinet," Abbas said.
In a confrontation Friday near the town of Khan Yunis in the south of Gaza, loyalists from Fatah and Hamas faced off in a battle that escalated from stone-throwing to an exchange of gunfire. Three people were reported injured.
The clashes were neither as large nor lethal as other episodes of unrest that have gripped Gaza in recent months since Israeli forces withdrew. But Friday's tumult boded ill for a peaceful handover of governance by Fatah — with all the material privileges it affords — to Hamas.
The Palestinian Authority, until now controlled by Fatah, has tens of thousands of men under arms in the various branches of its security forces. In addition, hundreds of rogue gunmen of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade also consider themselves Fatah loyalists but routinely use force and intimidation to demand jobs and other perquisites.
Public anger about corruption within the Palestinian Authority was a prime factor in Hamas' victory, but many observers are warning that those who accumulated wealth and privilege under Fatah's auspices are unlikely to give it up without a fight.
"It's easy [for Palestinian voters] to say, 'You are corrupt, and we are fed up with you,' but it is harder to live by that slogan when the corrupt ruling class have an armed militia," Amnon Danker, the editor of the Israeli newspaper Maariv, wrote in Friday's editions.
Ideological differences between the secular-minded Fatah, which has sought an accord with Israel, and rigorously Islamist Hamas, which is sworn to the Jewish state's destruction, could also boil over into confrontation in the coming days and weeks.
The clash outside Khan Yunis, in the village of Bani Sohila, was triggered when a mosque preacher affiliated with Fatah used his Friday sermon to denounce Hamas as dupes of Israel.
In addition, loyalty to either Fatah or Hamas tends to break down along clan lines in Gaza, so political disputes can easily turn into amped-up family feuds, often with weaponry involved.
Some disgruntled losing candidates from Fatah have their own armed following, and they have begun to marshal these forces.
Samir Mashrawi, a leader of Friday's street protests, lost what had been considered a safe parliamentary seat in his Gaza City district. Addressing the marchers, Mashrawi, who has ties to an Al Aqsa offshoot, demanded the resignation of members of Fatah's Central Committee.
Other protesters have made death threats against Fatah leaders if they enter into a governing coalition with Hamas.
Fatah officials have so far rebuffed overtures to form a parliamentary alliance with Hamas, but Hamas leader Ismail Haniya said Friday that he had requested a meeting with Abbas in the next few days to discuss a "political partnership."
"We will keep those channels open and continue to stress that Hamas wishes to work with everyone," Haniya, who headed the Hamas candidate slate, said after attending prayers in the Gaza refugee camp where he lives.
Abbas, in Ramallah, did not specifically mention Haniya's overture or any planned meeting. The Palestinian leader, who was elected a year ago, will remain in his post, but he has threatened to step down if he can't continue his program of seeking an agreement with Israel leading to Palestinian statehood.
Fatah officials fear an explosion of anger from their ranks if they were to ally with Hamas in the legislature or Cabinet. Palestinian security chief Mohammed Dahlan, one of the few Fatah members in Gaza to hang onto his parliamentary seat, assured restive demonstrators that Fatah "will not enter the coming government."
Hamas, meanwhile, is under growing international pressure to end its calls for the destruction of Israel and recognize the Jewish state.
Although Haniya and other pragmatists in the group have sought to telegraph the possibility of softening Hamas' stance, hard-liners such as newly elected legislator Mahmoud Zahar continue to insist there are no such plans.
"Why would we do that?" he asked, speaking to reporters in Gaza. "Is Israel ready to recognize the right of return for Palestinians? Is Israel ready to recognize our independent state, including Jerusalem as its capital?"
Perhaps seeking to avoid inflaming tensions with Fatah, Hamas avoided large-scale victory celebrations in Gaza on Thursday, the day the election results were announced. On Friday, it held its first major rally since the vote but staged it in the smaller town of Khan Yunis rather than Gaza City.
Thousands of Hamas supporters turned out, waving flags and wearing baseball caps in the movement's color, green. In line with the group's strict Islamic conservatism, the women who took part stayed separate from the men.
In Israel, where the implications of the elections are still being digested, Friday brought more public debate about the intentions of Hamas, which at least temporarily halted its suicide bombing campaign in Israel more than a year ago.
A former head of Israel's Shin Bet domestic security service, Avi Dichter, predicted that with its electoral success, the group would continue to observe an informal period of calm, even if it refuses to announce it will do so.
"The minute they become a partner in the Palestinian government, reality will become a lot more complicated for them than when they were a terror organization alone," Dichter told Army Radio.
Of immediate concern to Palestinians is the prospect of a foreign financial aid cutoff when a Hamas-led government takes over. U.S. law prohibits the use of American funds by groups, including Hamas, that have been designated terrorist organizations.
Former President Carter, who traveled to the region to serve as an election observer, met Friday with Abbas and said afterward that a sudden termination of aid "would create an element of chaos."
I think that the EU and US should hold talks with the new government on the proviso that the truce holds.
They should get them to put their oposition to the existance of israel on the table in exchange for a west bank withdrawl. They can then go into final status negotiations.
I think Jon makes a really good point. The corrupt secular Fatah party that had continually failed to defend Palestinians against Israeli aggression or the un-corrupt Islamic extremist pariah party. It's a shame that more people don't vote for groups like the PFLP or the DFLP.
Anyway, the important thing in politics is not to wish you were somewhere else, but to improve things from where you are. Bring Hamas into the system. Let people like Barghoti otu of prison so they can rennovate Fatah, and remove the cause of the terrorism - the illegal occupation.
They should get them to put their oposition to the existance of israel on the table in exchange for a west bank withdrawl. They can then go into final status negotiations.
I think Jon makes a really good point. The corrupt secular Fatah party that had continually failed to defend Palestinians against Israeli aggression or the un-corrupt Islamic extremist pariah party. It's a shame that more people don't vote for groups like the PFLP or the DFLP.
Anyway, the important thing in politics is not to wish you were somewhere else, but to improve things from where you are. Bring Hamas into the system. Let people like Barghoti otu of prison so they can rennovate Fatah, and remove the cause of the terrorism - the illegal occupation.
QUOTE(Graham @ Jan 28 2006, 12:52 PM)
Anyway, the important thing in politics is not to wish you were somewhere else, but to improve things from where you are. Bring Hamas into the system. Let people like Barghoti otu of prison so they can rennovate Fatah, and remove the cause of the terrorism - the illegal occupation.
That was laways rumoured to be Sharon's trump card....
QUOTE
like the peace process helped them in the 1st place under the PLO. israel is rubbing its hand and looking forward to kicking off a civil war between the palestinians.
From what I've seen, the Palestinians don't need any help with killing. They do it fine on their own.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 28 2006, 03:07 PM)
QUOTE
like the peace process helped them in the 1st place under the PLO. israel is rubbing its hand and looking forward to kicking off a civil war between the palestinians.
From what I've seen, the Palestinians don't need any help with killing. They do it fine on their own.
I wonder who they learned it from?
*edited to add http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_Bombing
no side can claim the moral high ground, because there isn't one.
Where did they learn it from? What are the Palestinians? 10 year olds?? You talk about them like they're in kindergarten. These are adults. And they are responsible for their own exploding asses.
As I predicted....
Hamas rejects donor 'blackmail'
A senior Hamas leader has rejected demands that the Islamic militant group must renounce violence to prevent aid cuts for the Palestinian Authority.
Ismail Haniya, who headed Hamas' election list, said they would not give in to "blackmail" by foreign donors.
President George W Bush warned US aid, worth $400m (£225m), could be cut following Hamas' surprise poll win.
In fresh unrest, gunmen from the former ruling party Fatah climbed on to the Palestinian parliament and fired shots.
Following the victory, the main donors to the Palestinian Authority, which has always been heavily reliant on international cash, said they were reviewing their funding position.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4657528.stm
They love their guns more than they love their children.
Hamas rejects donor 'blackmail'
A senior Hamas leader has rejected demands that the Islamic militant group must renounce violence to prevent aid cuts for the Palestinian Authority.
Ismail Haniya, who headed Hamas' election list, said they would not give in to "blackmail" by foreign donors.
President George W Bush warned US aid, worth $400m (£225m), could be cut following Hamas' surprise poll win.
In fresh unrest, gunmen from the former ruling party Fatah climbed on to the Palestinian parliament and fired shots.
Following the victory, the main donors to the Palestinian Authority, which has always been heavily reliant on international cash, said they were reviewing their funding position.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4657528.stm
They love their guns more than they love their children.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 28 2006, 08:12 PM)
They love their guns more than they love their children.
LOL they got that from charlton heston and the NRA. they do have alot of M16's don't they do.. i wonder were they got them from?
I don't think that amounts to serious diplomacy from Bush, it's just grandstanding, which has received more grandstanding from Hamas.
I thought Gerald Kaufman's Guardian article on the issue was very interesting. He seems to agree with the notion that Hamas and the Israeli right have a sort of symbiotic relationship.
I thought Gerald Kaufman's Guardian article on the issue was very interesting. He seems to agree with the notion that Hamas and the Israeli right have a sort of symbiotic relationship.
QUOTE
Neither the present Israeli government nor Hamas want a negotiated settlement bringing about a two-state solution. Hamas has been in a constant state of insurrection throughout its existence; and that suited Sharon perfectly. The current issue of the New Yorker contains a long article by the Israeli journalist Ari Shavit, reporting on 20 hours of conversations he had with Sharon stretching over six years, right up to Sharon's stroke. Shavit traces the development of the Sharon policies which, as he puts it, "led to the transformation of a relatively modest and ascetic state [Israel] into an occupying bully".
He provides conclusive evidence that Sharon never wanted a settlement with the Palestinians. What he did was to take unilateral actions to reinforce Israel's dominance of the old British Palestinian mandated territory. When, not out of generosity or as part of a staged settlement, Sharon withdrew settlers from the Gaza strip and Shavit asked if the next step would be a major Israeli withdrawal on the West Bank, Sharon responded: "There isn't any possibility of doing this... There is only one unilateral move. There will not be another unilateral move."
He provides conclusive evidence that Sharon never wanted a settlement with the Palestinians. What he did was to take unilateral actions to reinforce Israel's dominance of the old British Palestinian mandated territory. When, not out of generosity or as part of a staged settlement, Sharon withdrew settlers from the Gaza strip and Shavit asked if the next step would be a major Israeli withdrawal on the West Bank, Sharon responded: "There isn't any possibility of doing this... There is only one unilateral move. There will not be another unilateral move."
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 28 2006, 06:33 PM)
Where did they learn it from? What are the Palestinians? 10 year olds?? You talk about them like they're in kindergarten. These are adults. And they are responsible for their own exploding asses.
The point you seemed to miss (I assume you didn't follow the link) is that the Zionists employed terrorism when they were trying to create Israel. Including future Prime Ministers of Israel.
How to build a nation state.
Would this happen today?
I doubt it.
Jews determined to have their own state in palestine simply took it with little interference from the rest of the world. The rest of the world ( Europe and America) didn't care very much for Jews and even less for "dirty wogs".
From it's inception Israel has been plagued with unrest, violence and abject misery which feeds neatly into an idea of sufffering martyrdom.
It is completely impossible to lay the blame for the way things are at anyones door.
The entire world, barring perhaps Australian aboriginal tribes people or headhunters in the depths of the Papuan jungles, sat back and allowed this to develop over almost a century.
It will end when the US is no longer a super power and when the people of the middle east who make up the many and various distinct sects clans and tribes realise that they are one people and must unite.
The first might happen in my childrens lifetime. But the second? Not a million years.
Would this happen today?
I doubt it.
Jews determined to have their own state in palestine simply took it with little interference from the rest of the world. The rest of the world ( Europe and America) didn't care very much for Jews and even less for "dirty wogs".
From it's inception Israel has been plagued with unrest, violence and abject misery which feeds neatly into an idea of sufffering martyrdom.
It is completely impossible to lay the blame for the way things are at anyones door.
The entire world, barring perhaps Australian aboriginal tribes people or headhunters in the depths of the Papuan jungles, sat back and allowed this to develop over almost a century.
It will end when the US is no longer a super power and when the people of the middle east who make up the many and various distinct sects clans and tribes realise that they are one people and must unite.
QUOTE
Semites
{sem' - yts}
Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.
{sem' - yts}
Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.
The first might happen in my childrens lifetime. But the second? Not a million years.
The problem with democracy
And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power
By Robert Fisk
01/28/06 "The Independent" -- -- Oh no, not more democracy again! Didn't we award this to those Algerians in 1990? And didn't they reward us with that nice gift of an Islamist government - and then they so benevolently cancelled the second round of elections? Thank goodness for that!
True, the Afghans elected a round of representatives, albeit that they included some warlords and murderers. But then the Iraqis last year elected the Dawa party to power in Baghdad, which was responsible - let us not speak this in Washington - for most of the kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut in the 1980s, the car bombing of the (late) Emir and the US and French embassies in Kuwait.
And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power. They were supposed to have given their support to the friendly, pro-Western, corrupt, absolutely pro-American Fatah, which had promised to "control" them, rather than to Hamas, which said they would represent them. And, bingo, they have chosen the wrong party again.
Result: 76 out of 132 seats. That just about does it. God damn that democracy. What are we to do with people who don't vote the way they should?
Way back in the 1930s, the British would lock up the Egyptians who turned against the government of King Farouk. Thus they began to set the structure of anti-democratic governance that was to follow. The French imprisoned the Lebanese government which demanded the same. Then the French left Lebanon. But we have always expected the Arab governments to do what they were told.
So today, we are expecting the Syrians to behave, the Iranians to kowtow to our nuclear desires (though they have done nothing illegal), and the North Koreans to surrender their weapons (though they actually do have them, and therefore cannot be attacked).
Now let the burdens of power lie heavy on the shoulders of the party. Now let the responsibilities of people lie upon them. We British would never talk to the IRA, or to Eoka, or to the Mao Mao. But in due course, Gerry Adams, Archbishop Makarios and Jomo Kenyatta came to take tea with the Queen. The Americans would never speak to their enemies in North Vietnam. But they did. In Paris.
No, al-Qa'ida will not do that. But the Iraqi leaders of the insurgency in Mesopotamia will. They talked to the British in 1920, and they will talk to the Americans in 2006.
Back in 1983, Hamas talked to the Israelis. They spoke directly to them about the spread of mosques and religious teaching. The Israeli army boasted about this on the front page of the Jerusalem Post. At that time, it looked like the PLO was not going to abide by the Oslo resolutions. There seemed nothing wrong, therefore, with continuing talks with Hamas. So how come talks with Hamas now seem so impossible?
Not long after the Hamas leadership had been hurled into southern Lebanon, a leading member of its organisation heard me say that I was en route to Israel.
"You'd better call Shimon Peres," he told me. "Here's his home number."
The phone number was correct. Here was proof that members of the hierarchy of the most extremist movements among the Palestinians were talking to senior Israeli politicians.
The Israelis know well the Hamas leadership. And the Hamas leadership know well the Israelis. There is no point in journalists like us suggesting otherwise. Our enemies invariably turn out to be our greatest friends, and our friends turn out, sadly, to be our enemies.
A terrible equation - except that we must understand our fathers' history. My father, who was a soldier in the First World War, bequeathed to me a map in which the British and French ruled the Middle East. The Americans have tried, vainly, to rule that map since the Second World War. They have all failed. And it remains our curse to rule it since.
How terrible it is to speak with those who have killed our sons. How unspeakable it is to converse with those who have our brothers' blood on their hands. No doubt that is how Americans who believed in independence felt about the Englishmen who fired upon them.
It will be for the Iraqis to deal with al-Qa'ida. This is their burden. Not ours. Yet throughout history, we have ended up talking to our enemies. We talked to the representatives of the Emperor of Japan. In the end, we had to accept the surrender of the German Reich from the successor to Adolf Hitler. And today, we trade happily with the Japanese, the Germans and the Italians.
The Middle East was never a successor to Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, despite the rubbish talked by Messrs Bush and Blair. How long will it be before we can throw away the burden of this most titanic of wars and see our future, not as our past, but as a reality?
Surely, in an age when our governments no longer contain men or women who have experienced war, we must now lead a people with the understanding of what war means. Not Hollywood. Not documentary films. Democracy means real freedom, not just for the people we choose to have voted into power.
And that is the problem in the Middle East.
And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power
By Robert Fisk
01/28/06 "The Independent" -- -- Oh no, not more democracy again! Didn't we award this to those Algerians in 1990? And didn't they reward us with that nice gift of an Islamist government - and then they so benevolently cancelled the second round of elections? Thank goodness for that!
True, the Afghans elected a round of representatives, albeit that they included some warlords and murderers. But then the Iraqis last year elected the Dawa party to power in Baghdad, which was responsible - let us not speak this in Washington - for most of the kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut in the 1980s, the car bombing of the (late) Emir and the US and French embassies in Kuwait.
And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power. They were supposed to have given their support to the friendly, pro-Western, corrupt, absolutely pro-American Fatah, which had promised to "control" them, rather than to Hamas, which said they would represent them. And, bingo, they have chosen the wrong party again.
Result: 76 out of 132 seats. That just about does it. God damn that democracy. What are we to do with people who don't vote the way they should?
Way back in the 1930s, the British would lock up the Egyptians who turned against the government of King Farouk. Thus they began to set the structure of anti-democratic governance that was to follow. The French imprisoned the Lebanese government which demanded the same. Then the French left Lebanon. But we have always expected the Arab governments to do what they were told.
So today, we are expecting the Syrians to behave, the Iranians to kowtow to our nuclear desires (though they have done nothing illegal), and the North Koreans to surrender their weapons (though they actually do have them, and therefore cannot be attacked).
Now let the burdens of power lie heavy on the shoulders of the party. Now let the responsibilities of people lie upon them. We British would never talk to the IRA, or to Eoka, or to the Mao Mao. But in due course, Gerry Adams, Archbishop Makarios and Jomo Kenyatta came to take tea with the Queen. The Americans would never speak to their enemies in North Vietnam. But they did. In Paris.
No, al-Qa'ida will not do that. But the Iraqi leaders of the insurgency in Mesopotamia will. They talked to the British in 1920, and they will talk to the Americans in 2006.
Back in 1983, Hamas talked to the Israelis. They spoke directly to them about the spread of mosques and religious teaching. The Israeli army boasted about this on the front page of the Jerusalem Post. At that time, it looked like the PLO was not going to abide by the Oslo resolutions. There seemed nothing wrong, therefore, with continuing talks with Hamas. So how come talks with Hamas now seem so impossible?
Not long after the Hamas leadership had been hurled into southern Lebanon, a leading member of its organisation heard me say that I was en route to Israel.
"You'd better call Shimon Peres," he told me. "Here's his home number."
The phone number was correct. Here was proof that members of the hierarchy of the most extremist movements among the Palestinians were talking to senior Israeli politicians.
The Israelis know well the Hamas leadership. And the Hamas leadership know well the Israelis. There is no point in journalists like us suggesting otherwise. Our enemies invariably turn out to be our greatest friends, and our friends turn out, sadly, to be our enemies.
A terrible equation - except that we must understand our fathers' history. My father, who was a soldier in the First World War, bequeathed to me a map in which the British and French ruled the Middle East. The Americans have tried, vainly, to rule that map since the Second World War. They have all failed. And it remains our curse to rule it since.
How terrible it is to speak with those who have killed our sons. How unspeakable it is to converse with those who have our brothers' blood on their hands. No doubt that is how Americans who believed in independence felt about the Englishmen who fired upon them.
It will be for the Iraqis to deal with al-Qa'ida. This is their burden. Not ours. Yet throughout history, we have ended up talking to our enemies. We talked to the representatives of the Emperor of Japan. In the end, we had to accept the surrender of the German Reich from the successor to Adolf Hitler. And today, we trade happily with the Japanese, the Germans and the Italians.
The Middle East was never a successor to Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, despite the rubbish talked by Messrs Bush and Blair. How long will it be before we can throw away the burden of this most titanic of wars and see our future, not as our past, but as a reality?
Surely, in an age when our governments no longer contain men or women who have experienced war, we must now lead a people with the understanding of what war means. Not Hollywood. Not documentary films. Democracy means real freedom, not just for the people we choose to have voted into power.
And that is the problem in the Middle East.
QUOTE
The point you seemed to miss (I assume you didn't follow the link) is that the Zionists employed terrorism when they were trying to create Israel. Including future Prime Ministers of Israel.
I'm quite familiar with the story of the foundation of Israel, Rob. I believe we've discussed it on here before and agreed to disagree.
I feel the Palestinian leadership are adult human beings fully responsible for their own history of terrorism, and you can't blame the 'Zionists' for their own victimisation. Similarly, Israelis are responsible for their own actions against Palestine, and cannot entirely blame the 'Muslims' for the way they've handled the uprisings against them.
I think the Palestinians have proved to be very able and eager students of new methods of terrorism, and they don't much care who they learn it from, be it Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Britain (i.e. TE Lawrence), or the internet.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 04:11 PM)
I feel the Palestinian leadership are adult human beings fully responsible for their own history of terrorism,
I agree.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 04:11 PM)
and you can't blame the 'Zionists' for their own victimisation.
No. Precisely the opposite - it was the Zionists who created the problem in the first place. They ethnically cleansed the Palestinians from Israel and then they occupied the areas that many of the Palestinian refugees had been forcibly sent.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 04:11 PM)
Similarly, Israelis are responsible for their own actions against Palestine, and cannot entirely blame the 'Muslims' for the way they've handled the uprisings against them.
Who are the "Muslims"? Do you mean Palestinians?
QUOTE(Martyn @ Jan 29 2006, 01:04 PM)
It will end when the US is no longer a super power and when the people of the middle east who make up the many and various distinct sects clans and tribes realise that they are one people and must unite.
It won't happen until the perversity of the Abrahamic religions are purged by rationalism and humanism.
I think you missed my inverted commas, Rob.
Here's an interesting article from today's Washington Post.
Some Palestinians See End of Secular Dream
Election Win by Islamic Group Hamas Clouds Prospects for Arab Nationalism
By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, January 29, 2006; Page A01
BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- The worshipers overflowed the mosque on Manger Square, covering the rain-slick stones with rows of prayer rugs and parked cars. At the center, surrounded by kneeling men, stood a showy symbol of their triumphant week: a van bristling with the green banners of Hamas.
Here in the cradle of Christianity, the radical Palestinian movement that favors creation of an Islamic state won every parliamentary seat on Wednesday's ballot except those reserved for Christian candidates -- a lopsided victory duplicated in such secular strongholds as Jerusalem and Ramallah on the organization's way to a majority in the next legislature. From his second-story office above the square, Victor Batarseh, Bethlehem's septuagenarian mayor, saw in the prayerful celebration the end of something.
"I have always believed in a secular Palestinian state, so I would have preferred another result," Batarseh, a member of the Marxist-oriented Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, said Friday. "We have to accept this, whether we like it or not, because it is the will of the people."
The electoral triumph by Hamas, an organization that is committed to establishing an Islamic state across territory that includes Israel and whose armed wing has carried out bombings and other attacks on Israeli targets, has had repercussions around the world. It upended the Palestinian political order, complicated peace efforts with Israel and threatened the continuation of financial aid from the United States and other Western countries.
At the same time, closer to home, it has also clouded the aspirations of a generation of Palestinian nationalists who have served time in jail, in exile and underground for the cause of creating their own secular state.
To people such as Batarseh, a Christian physician who became politically active during the first Palestinian uprising in the late 1980s, Hamas's rise undermines the Arab nationalist dream that is also withering in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere as the influence of religious movements grows.
Whether Palestinians chose Hamas for its clean management of municipal councils, its long history of attacks on Israel, its religious aspect or simply out of disgust with the status quo, the Islamic nationalism Hamas represents has, at least for now, pushed aside the secular movement that shaped the Palestinian cause from its inception.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6012801153.html
Here's an interesting article from today's Washington Post.
Some Palestinians See End of Secular Dream
Election Win by Islamic Group Hamas Clouds Prospects for Arab Nationalism
By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, January 29, 2006; Page A01
BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- The worshipers overflowed the mosque on Manger Square, covering the rain-slick stones with rows of prayer rugs and parked cars. At the center, surrounded by kneeling men, stood a showy symbol of their triumphant week: a van bristling with the green banners of Hamas.
Here in the cradle of Christianity, the radical Palestinian movement that favors creation of an Islamic state won every parliamentary seat on Wednesday's ballot except those reserved for Christian candidates -- a lopsided victory duplicated in such secular strongholds as Jerusalem and Ramallah on the organization's way to a majority in the next legislature. From his second-story office above the square, Victor Batarseh, Bethlehem's septuagenarian mayor, saw in the prayerful celebration the end of something.
"I have always believed in a secular Palestinian state, so I would have preferred another result," Batarseh, a member of the Marxist-oriented Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, said Friday. "We have to accept this, whether we like it or not, because it is the will of the people."
The electoral triumph by Hamas, an organization that is committed to establishing an Islamic state across territory that includes Israel and whose armed wing has carried out bombings and other attacks on Israeli targets, has had repercussions around the world. It upended the Palestinian political order, complicated peace efforts with Israel and threatened the continuation of financial aid from the United States and other Western countries.
At the same time, closer to home, it has also clouded the aspirations of a generation of Palestinian nationalists who have served time in jail, in exile and underground for the cause of creating their own secular state.
To people such as Batarseh, a Christian physician who became politically active during the first Palestinian uprising in the late 1980s, Hamas's rise undermines the Arab nationalist dream that is also withering in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere as the influence of religious movements grows.
Whether Palestinians chose Hamas for its clean management of municipal councils, its long history of attacks on Israel, its religious aspect or simply out of disgust with the status quo, the Islamic nationalism Hamas represents has, at least for now, pushed aside the secular movement that shaped the Palestinian cause from its inception.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6012801153.html
QUOTE
and you can't blame the 'Zionists' for their own victimisation.
No. Precisely the opposite - it was the Zionists who created the problem in the first place
No. Precisely the opposite - it was the Zionists who created the problem in the first place
So you DO blame the Israelis for the suicide bombings that kill them.
Twisted logic, dude.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 28 2006, 02:07 PM)
From what I've seen, the Palestinians don't need any help with killing. They do it fine on their own.
I know I'm a terribly PC kind of arsehole but my partner is Palestinian and, as a midwife, plays a significant part in bringing life into the world, not killing.
Of course I do know that you don't mean Palestinians per se, but it's such language that perpetuates the kind of attitudes, towards those people, amongst the misinformed readerships of KLF's favourite sources of information.
Cheers, Andy.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 03:38 PM)
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people3/Hass/hass-con0.html
So you DO blame the Israelis for the suicide bombings that kill them.
Twisted logic, dude.
So you DO blame the Israelis for the suicide bombings that kill them.
Twisted logic, dude.
Amira Hass, who is a correspondent for Ha'aretz, the Israeli newspaper on
Suicide Bombers
Q: Let's talk a little now about the suicide bombers, because in this recent phase, the last couple of years of the second Intifada, this has become a series of events that have shattered our ability to understand what is actually going on in that part of the world, and has obviously been tied to the U.S. policy and war against terrorism, and links have been made, whether they are justified or not. Help us understand how suicide bombers emerged in this conflict on the Palestinian side.
A H: The first suicide bombings, which occurred in Palestinian territory, not in Israel, were in '93. This was ten years after the first suicide bombings in Lebanon, which means that for ten years, Palestinians, who are mostly Muslims, did not think of endorsing such a way. Their fight was always based on hope for life, not for death. Now, '93 is two years after the imposition of the pass system and of the closure policy. I think it has to do -- you feel this impotence, this terrible impotence that Palestinians felt in the times when their space was reduced. And this was only '93, and [comprised] three or four [suicide] attempts inside the occupied territories -- Gaza and the West Bank -- against mostly military targets, and settlers (who are seen by Palestinians as military, not as civilians).
The first suicide bombings inside Israel were in '94. These were one month or so, or two months after the murder conducted by a Jewish-American physician or doctor in Hebron, where he killed twenty-nine Muslim worshipers in their holy place. So this was a revenge one time, and then [more] revenge started. It started to be emulated by Hamas and by jihadis against Israel, always saying that this is retaliation against Israeli actions in killing those civilians. But it had a clear political motive on the part of Hamas, and this was to foil the Oslo agreements, or to push to a corner the Palestinian Authority. This is, I think, is obvious. So it had a political motive and especially an internal political motive, the struggle within the Palestinian Authority.
Q:So the factions within the Palestinian leadership, in their competition with each other for popular support, see this as a tool?
A H: It was a tool then by Hamas. In this Intifada, it became a tool in the competition between everybody. These factions are using people's disgust with life, total loss of hope, the need for revenge, because so many Palestinians civilians have been killed during the last three years, almost unnoticed by the entire world. They feel this need to take revenge, and they feel this need to get out, even for a moment, from their captivated and very limited space, vis-á-vis Israeli military technology, and to be omnipotent even for one moment. They're ready to die for this, because they don't see any point in living. But then the factions are using this readiness, not because they strategize and they think this will bring them closer to independence, but because they compete with each other on their popularity within the Palestinian population.
Q: Let's broaden our understanding of this. What you have is a hypothetical person whose family's land is taken away, or who loses a relative, or ...
A H: Or who sees so much blood around them.
Q:Right.
A H: Who has been led to unbelievable depression and frustration, and becomes a target of opportunity for factions among the Palestinian leadership, who want to use him in this way to strike back at Israel.
Very often they don't have to work hard to recruit him or her. Very often such people voluntarily look for someone and say, "We would like to make a suicide attempt." So they come themselves very often.
Q: But from our side of the water, it's hard to understand what would lead a person to take this act. One is not sure whether they're motivated by religion, by going to heaven. Talk a little about that.
A H: For me as a secular person, it's also very difficult to, on the one hand, to believe or to understand when people do talk about heaven. So I need the help of my Palestinian friends and acquaintances, who might not be very secular but not either very religious. Most of them say that going to heaven, or the religious motivations of being shahid, being martyred, and getting eternal life in heaven, these are not the main motivations, they only come last, or they are being adopted because it is accepted as the norm.
The real motivations are those personal community ones -- not even personal in the sense that one's life is a total wreck. No. We see that many of those who went to explode themselves had careers or started to have careers, were not coming from the poorest families, were enrolled into universities. So it's not people who were a total loss in Western norms, or even Palestinian norms. They felt they represent the society in its despair, and they want to do something, [make] some use of this despair, revenge.
It is a very delicate interplay between the personal despair, but not immediate despair, and the political community despair. Many of them got strength by becoming more observant, by going to the mosque, by praying five times a day, by reading Koran over and over again. It's only then. Some of them started with the Koran at the beginning of the Intifada when they saw so much bloodshed. So many of their neighbors and friends and relatives getting killed, civilians getting killed by Israeli soldiers. They found compensation and solace with reading the Koran. So it strengthened them.
But this was not the motivation. It was, maybe, the support. At the same time, as I told yesterday in my lecture, I did speak to one person from Hamas who eventually was killed, not in a suicide attempt. He was always going out vis-à-vis the Israeli military tanks and soldiers, and eventually he was killed in one of those battles. He with his gun and invading tanks in his neighborhood. We had talked a year before he was killed, and he saw himself as a candidate for suicide, because this was suicide. To fight against the Israeli army is almost suicide, because the proportions are such that you are always getting killed. He didn't mention religious motivations at all, only the national ones, only to think how many of his friends got killed. He was a very educated person, and also very religious, theoretically religious. He didn't use religion as the first motivation for him at all. It gave him support, but not motivation.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 04:38 PM)
QUOTE
and you can't blame the 'Zionists' for their own victimisation.
No. Precisely the opposite - it was the Zionists who created the problem in the first place
No. Precisely the opposite - it was the Zionists who created the problem in the first place
So you DO blame the Israelis for the suicide bombings that kill them.
Twisted logic, dude.
Twisted. Not really.
You don't think the Israeli state is culpable in creating, prolonging and deepening the conflict?
Do you think suicide bombers would be blowing themselves up at Israeli night-clubs if instead of forcibly removing Palestinians the Zionists had learned to live side-by-side with their bretheren?
Instead of a festering sore at the centre of the Middle East's problems Israel/Palestine could have been the model of enlightened co-existence.
For over a thousand years Jews and Arabs co-exsited relatively peacefully. In a 1941 pogrom in Baghdad by Arab Nationalist more Muslims were killed than Jews. Why? Because they were protecting their Jewish neighbours. It was Zionism which led to anti-Jewish sentiment within Arab nationalism.
I support the right of Israel to exist. I equally support the right of self determination by Palestinians. The failure of the world to secure that right has led to the result we have today.
Sharon froze out Fatah because of his obsessive hatred of Yasser Arafat, and indeed all Arabs: He is in part responsible.
Fatah are also responsible: they are seen as failures by Palestinians because they are seen as (indeed are) corrupt and they have failed to secure security, freedom or peace. The only thing keeping them in power was the Heroic myth of Arafat. Arafat is dead. He takes Fatah with him.
Hamas will deal with Israel and Israel will deal with Hamas. Neither have a choice.
And America and the EU will continue to give aid to Palestine. Again - no choice.
QUOTE
Twisted. Not really.
You don't think the Israeli state is culpable in creating, prolonging and deepening the conflict?
Do you think suicide bombers would be blowing themselves up at Israeli night-clubs if instead of forcibly removing Palestinians the Zionists had learned to live side-by-side with their bretheren?
You don't think the Israeli state is culpable in creating, prolonging and deepening the conflict?
Do you think suicide bombers would be blowing themselves up at Israeli night-clubs if instead of forcibly removing Palestinians the Zionists had learned to live side-by-side with their bretheren?
Why do you insistt on calling Israelis 'the Zionists'? Are you referring to the original settlers? Not all Israelis are Zionists. Some are simply people who were born in Israel.
And, no, I don't think the men, women and children killed in bombings of pizza restaurants, coffee shops and marketplaces are responsible for their own murders. Not in any way. I think the evil bastards who strapped bombs to their bodies and blew them up are fully responsible for the acts of mass murder they commit.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 05:32 PM)
Why do you insist on calling Israelis 'the Zionists'? Are you referring to the original settlers? Not all Israelis are Zionists. Some are simply people who were born in Israel.
I was deliberately using the word to refer to the early settlers and the Palestinian born Jews who joined the cause. Some Israeli's were indeed born in Israel (probably most). And some were born in Palestine.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 05:32 PM)
And, no, I don't think the men, women and children killed in bombings of pizza restaurants, coffee shops and marketplaces are responsible for their own murders. Not in any way. I think the evil bastards who strapped bombs to their bodies and blew them up are fully responsible for the acts of mass murder they commit.
I was careful to change Israeli's to Israeli state.
So suicide bombers are independent of the socio-political landscape that they inhabit?
I don't condone suicide bombings - I actively condemn them, but it is really disingenuous to say that they are the act of evil lunatics, and helps no one.
QUOTE
I was deliberately using the word to refer to the early settlers and the Palestinian born Jews who joined the cause. Some Israeli's were indeed born in Israel (probably most). And some were born in Palestine.
Yes. I believe I read that Ariel Sharon is Palestinian.
QUOTE
So suicide bombers are independent of the socio-political landscape that they inhabit?
I don't condone suicide bombings - I actively condemn them, but it is really disingenuous to say that they are the act of evil lunatics, and helps no one.
I don't condone suicide bombings - I actively condemn them, but it is really disingenuous to say that they are the act of evil lunatics, and helps no one.
Oh, I think strapping a bomb to your waist and stepping onto a bus full of innocent people and setting it off is top of the list under the average definition of 'lunacy'.
Do I think suicide bombers are independent of the socio-political landscape? No. The problem is, their victims all to often are. Because they do not target soldiers, but instead intentionally seek out and kill innocent people completely unrelated to the issues that inspire their acts of mass murder, they lose any right to be seen as anything other than crazed mass murders. Psychopaths seeking nothing except death and destruction for as many as possible.
They're not exactly learning at the feet of Ghandi, are they? And name one good thing that has happened in the last decade because of suicide bombings. What has suicide bombing ever accomplished for the people of Palestine? In a decade, has any good come of what they've done? Could it ever? They accomplish nothing except bringing misery and death to people who often have nothing at all to do with whatever it is they think they want.
QUOTE
They're not exactly learning at the feet of Ghandi, are they? And name one good thing that has happened in the last decade because of suicide bombings. What has suicide bombing ever accomplished for the people of Palestine? In a decade, has any good come of what they've done? Could it ever? They accomplish nothing except bringing misery and death to people who often have nothing at all to do with whatever it is they think they want.
I would be surprised if anyone here disagreed with you about that.
The point is that there's a reason why these things are happening. There's a reason that Hamas won, and it's not just that there's something bad about Palestinians, or that there's something wrong about Palestinian culture.
If the middle-east is to move forward, the EU and US will have to engage with the new PA government otherwise there will be a real danger that the truce could break or that they could look elsewhere for support (Iran?). That wouldn't help.
Like I said above, I think it would be sensible to have the EU and US negotiate with the new government in exchanged for the continued truce. from there, the opposition to the existance of Israel could be negotiated away in exchange for a full withdrawl from the occupied territories.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 06:49 PM)
They're not exactly learning at the feet of Ghandi, are they?
Yeah like Ghandi was the only thing in the removal of the British in India. So in your book the Ghandi model has to be applied to every colonial liberation struggle. i wonder if the FLN and the VC followed the Ghandi model would they still achieve the victories over the colonial imperialist. i bet Batista would of loved it if Che and Castro followed the Ghandi model. he'd still be in power.
Viva le reveloution!
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 06:49 PM)
Oh, I think strapping a bomb to your waist and stepping onto a bus full of innocent people and setting it off is top of the list under the average definition of 'lunacy'.
And flying a F16 or driving a Tank into civilian population and bombing the fuck out of it doesnt make your list of lunacy. but hay innocent brown people are worth less then innocent white people. the brown palistinains ones are mere collateral damage. " our troops alway try and avoid civilian casualties" the white israelis are murdered victims.
The difference is that palastinians TARGET innocent civilians.The Israeli's target terrorists,but have little regard if they hit innocent civilians in the process.
Interesting fact.80% of the Israeli population were born in Israel.80% of the Palastinian population were born outside of Palastine.
Interesting fact.80% of the Israeli population were born in Israel.80% of the Palastinian population were born outside of Palastine.
QUOTE
Interesting fact.80% of the Israeli population were born in Israel.80% of the Palastinian population were born outside of Palastine.
What do you think is the relevance of that KLF?
QUOTE
The difference is that palastinians TARGET innocent civilians.The Israeli's target terrorists,but have little regard if they hit innocent civilians in the process.
I don't think that either of those two assertions are true as blanket statements. Palestinian suicide bombers usually target innocent civilians. Other Palestinians target legitimate military targets in occupied land, most don't target anyone.
Sometimes the IDF and proxies have deliberately targeted innocents, I'd like to think that they usually don't. Many Israelis are opposed to the whole illegal occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 29 2006, 09:59 PM)
The difference is that palastinians TARGET innocent civilians.The Israeli's target terrorists,but have little regard if they hit innocent civilians in the process.
Interesting fact.80% of the Israeli population were born in Israel.80% of the Palastinian population were born outside of Palastine.
Interesting fact.80% of the Israeli population were born in Israel.80% of the Palastinian population were born outside of Palastine.
ethnic cleansing at it most productive
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h123002.html
http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm
http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth2.htm
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jan 29 2006, 09:20 PM)
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 06:49 PM)
Oh, I think strapping a bomb to your waist and stepping onto a bus full of innocent people and setting it off is top of the list under the average definition of 'lunacy'.
And flying a F16 or driving a Tank into civilian population and bombing the fuck out of it doesnt make your list of lunacy. but hay innocent brown people are worth less then innocent white people. the brown palistinains ones are mere collateral damage. " our troops alway try and avoid civilian casualties" the white israelis are murdered victims.
What are you talking about? This isn't a 'white' or 'brown' issue. One of the reasons suicide bombers are so successful is because they look just like Israelis. They blend in. They are in essence the same people. Divided by religion.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 07:49 PM)
They're not exactly learning at the feet of Ghandi, are they?
Is anyone?
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jan 29 2006, 09:20 PM)
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 06:49 PM)
Oh, I think strapping a bomb to your waist and stepping onto a bus full of innocent people and setting it off is top of the list under the average definition of 'lunacy'.
And flying a F16 or driving a Tank into civilian population and bombing the fuck out of it doesnt make your list of lunacy. but hay innocent brown people are worth less then innocent white people. the brown palistinains ones are mere collateral damage. " our troops alway try and avoid civilian casualties" the white israelis are murdered victims.
What are you talking about? This isn't a 'white' or 'brown' issue. One of the reasons suicide bombers are so successful is because they look just like Israelis. They blend in. They are in essence the same people. Divided by religion.
The same people are in essence American and European colonial settlers and their descendents.
and the native indignance people of semitic race within palestine. if they all look the same to you then, you need to look at them again. what about flying a F16 or driving a Tank into civilian population and bombing the fuck out t making your list of lunacy
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jan 30 2006, 12:54 AM)
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jan 29 2006, 09:20 PM)
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 29 2006, 06:49 PM)
Oh, I think strapping a bomb to your waist and stepping onto a bus full of innocent people and setting it off is top of the list under the average definition of 'lunacy'.
And flying a F16 or driving a Tank into civilian population and bombing the fuck out of it doesnt make your list of lunacy. but hay innocent brown people are worth less then innocent white people. the brown palistinains ones are mere collateral damage. " our troops alway try and avoid civilian casualties" the white israelis are murdered victims.
What are you talking about? This isn't a 'white' or 'brown' issue. One of the reasons suicide bombers are so successful is because they look just like Israelis. They blend in. They are in essence the same people. Divided by religion.
The same people are in essence American and European colonial settlers and their descendents.
and the native indignance people of semitic race within palestine. if they all look the same to you then, you need to look at them again.
Erm, no I think maybe YOU need to look at them again, my irritable friend.
The definition of semitic is: Of or pertaining to Shem or his descendants; belonging to that division of the Caucasian race which includes the Arabs,
Jews, and related races.
Jewish people and Palestinians are essentially the same people. Many Israelis' families may have moved to Israel from Russia or Germany or America, but since they tend not to marry outside of their religion, regardless of how long their forefathers may have lived outside of Israel, they still look semitic. If you recall, their appearance was one of the weapons Hitler used against them. The 'hook-nosed jew', as Louis Farrakhan so memorably called them, looks just like the 'hook-nosed' Palestinian. Because all Palestinians are Israelis. And all Israelis are Palestinians.
That's why, among other reasons, the last 50 years have been so incredibly stupid.
http://nytimes.com/2006/01/30/internationa...artner=homepage
you might need a login... (registration is free)
It does make you wonder even more about US intelligence. I think these guys just believe the world is one way - even when they are constantly proven wrong.
you might need a login... (registration is free)
QUOTE(NY Times)
Rice Admits U.S. Underestimated Hamas Strength
By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
Published: January 30, 2006
LONDON, Jan. 29 — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice acknowledged Sunday that the United States had failed to understand the depth of hostility among Palestinians toward their longtime leaders. The hostility led to an election victory by the militant group Hamas that has reduced to tatters crucial assumptions underlying American policies and hopes in the Middle East.
"I've asked why nobody saw it coming," Ms. Rice said, speaking of her own staff. "It does say something about us not having a good enough pulse."
By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
Published: January 30, 2006
LONDON, Jan. 29 — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice acknowledged Sunday that the United States had failed to understand the depth of hostility among Palestinians toward their longtime leaders. The hostility led to an election victory by the militant group Hamas that has reduced to tatters crucial assumptions underlying American policies and hopes in the Middle East.
"I've asked why nobody saw it coming," Ms. Rice said, speaking of her own staff. "It does say something about us not having a good enough pulse."
It does make you wonder even more about US intelligence. I think these guys just believe the world is one way - even when they are constantly proven wrong.
QUOTE(Pam @ Jan 30 2006, 02:54 PM - on a different thread but it was my fault)
They can't believe that there are some cultures for which American style democracy simply does not work -- or if it does, brings election results that make the baby Uncle Sam cry. e.g. Bolivia, Argentina, Palestine. Who's next?
The whole of Latin America is set to go red. Including Mexico and Nicaragua (The Sandinistas expected to get back in) - only Colombia won't. It's going to be fun watching this year
Well, with GW bogged down in the Middle East, I don't see him sending troops to South America to restore democracy. There are no more troops to send anyway.
I agree. The coming year's elections in SA are definitely going to be interesting. And given the natural resources and economic potential of the continent, should the countries manage to form a union such as Europe has (economic or political), they will become the next world power to reckon with.
I agree. The coming year's elections in SA are definitely going to be interesting. And given the natural resources and economic potential of the continent, should the countries manage to form a union such as Europe has (economic or political), they will become the next world power to reckon with.
QUOTE(Pam @ Jan 30 2006, 03:15 PM)
Well, with GW bogged down in the Middle East, I don't see him sending troops to South America to restore democracy. There are no more troops to send anyway.
I agree. The coming year's elections in SA are definitely going to be interesting. And given the natural resources and economic potential of the continent, should the countries manage to form a union such as Europe has (economic or political), they will become the next world power to reckon with.
I agree. The coming year's elections in SA are definitely going to be interesting. And given the natural resources and economic potential of the continent, should the countries manage to form a union such as Europe has (economic or political), they will become the next world power to reckon with.
Could Hugo Chavez be the modern day Simon Bolivar?????
Very interesting stuff about the Palestinian problem Sunday on the US news show This Week. It was interesting to get the conservative and democratic perspective.
My summation -- conservatives, in the form of George Will -- think the US cannot give aid to the Palestinians directly, since their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It cannot give aid through the UN because the UN is corrupt. If the US does not give aid through either, though, the Palestinians will turn to Iran. In the end, uncharacteristically, Will seemed to see the whole thing as unresolvable, and condemned the Iraq war for having set off the whole domino effect. I cannot tell you how uncharacteristic this was.
The democrats seemed to think the US should continue to give aid to the Palestinians only if they renounce violence, and then through the UN. They generally declined to discuss the what-ifs of the Iran element. They also believe that Hamas will magically transform itself into a nicer more political party as it takes over the day-to-day activities of government. George Will calls this 'The Garbage Theory' (dismissively), as in 'once they start picking up the garbage they won't blow things up'. He points out that most of the violence in recent months has come from Fatah's militaristic wing, the al Aqsa Brigade (sp), even as Fatah occasionally picked up the garbage, but mostly nicked stuff.
The general mood of pessimism on both sides about everything was quite profound. Neither side really believes pressure can be put on Iran about nukes and Palestine, because China and Russia are both eager to buddy up to Iran, and don't give a darn about the future. Both sides point out that Iran has a substantial military that, if it got more involved in activities in Iraq and Palestine could do a tremendous amount of damage.
It was, in general, depressing.
My summation -- conservatives, in the form of George Will -- think the US cannot give aid to the Palestinians directly, since their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It cannot give aid through the UN because the UN is corrupt. If the US does not give aid through either, though, the Palestinians will turn to Iran. In the end, uncharacteristically, Will seemed to see the whole thing as unresolvable, and condemned the Iraq war for having set off the whole domino effect. I cannot tell you how uncharacteristic this was.
The democrats seemed to think the US should continue to give aid to the Palestinians only if they renounce violence, and then through the UN. They generally declined to discuss the what-ifs of the Iran element. They also believe that Hamas will magically transform itself into a nicer more political party as it takes over the day-to-day activities of government. George Will calls this 'The Garbage Theory' (dismissively), as in 'once they start picking up the garbage they won't blow things up'. He points out that most of the violence in recent months has come from Fatah's militaristic wing, the al Aqsa Brigade (sp), even as Fatah occasionally picked up the garbage, but mostly nicked stuff.
The general mood of pessimism on both sides about everything was quite profound. Neither side really believes pressure can be put on Iran about nukes and Palestine, because China and Russia are both eager to buddy up to Iran, and don't give a darn about the future. Both sides point out that Iran has a substantial military that, if it got more involved in activities in Iraq and Palestine could do a tremendous amount of damage.
It was, in general, depressing.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 30 2006, 03:52 PM)
Very interesting stuff about the Palestinian problem Sunday on the US news show This Week. It was interesting to get the conservative and democratic perspective.
My summation -- conservatives, in the form of George Will -- think the US cannot give aid to the Palestinians directly, sense their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It cannot give aid through the UN because the UN is corrupt. If the US does not give aid through either, though, the Palestinians will turn to Iran. In the end, uncharacteristically, Will seemed to see the whole thing as unresolvable, and condemned the Iraq war for having set off the whole domino effect. I cannot tell you how uncharacteristic this was.
The democrats seemed to think the US should continue to give aid to the Palestinians only if they renounce violence, and then through the UN. They generally declined to discuss the what-ifs of the Iran element. They also believe that Hamas will magically transform itself into a nicer more political party as it takes over the day-to-day activities of government. George Will calls this 'The Garbage Theory' (dismissively), as in 'once they start delivering garbage they won't blow things up'. He points out that most of the violence in recent months has come from Fatah's militaristic wing, the al Aqsa Brigade (sp), even as Fatah occasionally picked up the garbage, but mostly nicked stuff.
The general mood of pessimism on both sides about everything was quite profound. Neither side really believes pressure can be put on Iran about nukes and Palestine, because China and Russia are both eager to buddy up to Iran, and don't give a darn about the future. Both sides point out that Iran has a substantial military that, if it got more involved in activities in Iraq and Palestine could do a tremendous amount of damage.
It was, in general, depressing.
My summation -- conservatives, in the form of George Will -- think the US cannot give aid to the Palestinians directly, sense their stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It cannot give aid through the UN because the UN is corrupt. If the US does not give aid through either, though, the Palestinians will turn to Iran. In the end, uncharacteristically, Will seemed to see the whole thing as unresolvable, and condemned the Iraq war for having set off the whole domino effect. I cannot tell you how uncharacteristic this was.
The democrats seemed to think the US should continue to give aid to the Palestinians only if they renounce violence, and then through the UN. They generally declined to discuss the what-ifs of the Iran element. They also believe that Hamas will magically transform itself into a nicer more political party as it takes over the day-to-day activities of government. George Will calls this 'The Garbage Theory' (dismissively), as in 'once they start delivering garbage they won't blow things up'. He points out that most of the violence in recent months has come from Fatah's militaristic wing, the al Aqsa Brigade (sp), even as Fatah occasionally picked up the garbage, but mostly nicked stuff.
The general mood of pessimism on both sides about everything was quite profound. Neither side really believes pressure can be put on Iran about nukes and Palestine, because China and Russia are both eager to buddy up to Iran, and don't give a darn about the future. Both sides point out that Iran has a substantial military that, if it got more involved in activities in Iraq and Palestine could do a tremendous amount of damage.
It was, in general, depressing.
Nah.
Both sides are so fucking divorced from the reality on the ground that they haven't got a fucking clue what they are talking about.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/676190.html
the negotiations begin
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jan 30 2006, 02:58 PM)
Nah.
Both sides are so fucking divorced from the reality on the ground that they haven't got a fucking clue what they are talking about.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/676190.html
the negotiations begin
Both sides are so fucking divorced from the reality on the ground that they haven't got a fucking clue what they are talking about.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/676190.html
the negotiations begin
Forgive me if I don't get too excited. Way I see it, negotations have been going on for 35 years so far....
Saying 'If Israel does this thing they haven't ever done we'll live peacefully' is a bit like saying, 'If the Earth cools itself we won't have to worry about global warming.' What are the Israelis going to say? We won't talk unless Hamas renounces terrorism. What will the Palestinians then say? We won't renounce violence unless Israel retreats to within the 1967 borders.
I mean, I hope it happens and everything. But the general outlook from those who follow this sort of thing is not good.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.