Full Version: Multi Ethnic London
In Newham east London one saturday recently, I was in Green street near West Hams football ground, a couple of hours before a match was going to kick off there. Its a busy high street that has become almost completly Asian in look and feel, appart from all these white people standing in and outside the pubs in their clarrett and blue football shirts looking like they dont belong there. When the Upton Park ground was built all those years ago, the club became one of the strongest focal points of the local cockney communitty. Now it seems it isn't. Seems is the important word there, as I dont know how many of those white fans live locally, or have come in from Essex or other places, or whats the feeling of the local non white population towards the club. Today for example, Chelsea are the visitors. When Manchester City moved out Maine road in a very Asian area, I'm sure many locals were glad to see the back of the club, mainly because they don't like all the problems caused by so many football fans coming to their area. The problem I have, is that many of the fans in the pub will look out at what now resembles Lahore or Karachi, and not like it. So they have to be condemed for their racism, (according to todays thinking). Across the road from one pub is an Islamic bookstore, with huge posters of Mecca in the windows. I had a look around inside; there were books on Jihad clearly vissable. I don't know what to think about this change. Why did all the whites leave? For those who still live in the area, and I read somewhere it's about 15%; is there any justification for a few grumbles about being swamped or what ever un pc moans they might make. My guilty liberal problem is, I think there is. If a couple of these fans look out at some of the women wearing saudi style face covering and gloves, look at each other and say something like, "It just went too far"; all we can do is condem them? It seems pretty harsh. Its the first time I've written one of these and i'll leave it there.
Good point. Football grounds were built around the communities that supported them.As different communities move into these areas and the old communities move out,many premiership clubs have found themselves marooned in alien communities.Places like Tottenham,West Ham, Aston Villa now have a high percentage of ethnic residents,but fans of all those clubs are almost exclusively white and who now travel into those areas just to watch their team and then travell out again.Its surreal.If you walk around the Aston Area in Birmingham it is almost exclusively ethnic in make-up,but once a week 40,000 white people (former residents or relations of former residents) swarm into a football ground to watch match and then disappear again out of the area, until the next match.
Up to 30 years ago most fans lived in the communites that surrounded these grounds,now most of the fans (at any given ground), do not live in the communities that their club represent.
I fear what will happen over the first half of this century,is that when clubs decide to redevelop,they will not longer look to build a new stadium in the area which they are named after,but redevelop in area where their fanbase are.For example, there have been rumours for many years that when Tottenham hotspur do finally build a new stadium it will be in Hertforshire (where most of their fans now live) rather than in Tottenham.That is a sad indictment of modern britain.
Up to 30 years ago most fans lived in the communites that surrounded these grounds,now most of the fans (at any given ground), do not live in the communities that their club represent.
I fear what will happen over the first half of this century,is that when clubs decide to redevelop,they will not longer look to build a new stadium in the area which they are named after,but redevelop in area where their fanbase are.For example, there have been rumours for many years that when Tottenham hotspur do finally build a new stadium it will be in Hertforshire (where most of their fans now live) rather than in Tottenham.That is a sad indictment of modern britain.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 2 2006, 11:50 AM)
I fear what will happen over the first half of this century,is that when clubs decide to redevelop,they will not longer look to build a new stadium in the area which they are named after,but redevelop in area where their fanbase are.For example, there have been rumours for many years that when Tottenham hotspur do finally build a new stadium it will be in Hertforshire (where most of their fans now live) rather than in Tottenham.That is a sad indictment of modern britain.
Sorry to go a bit off topic .... but does this mean that a certain North West team who play in red will be relocating to within the M25 to be nearer to their fans?
Back on topic, another result has been closing of pubs in the near suburbs of towns with a large Muslim population ... some of them due to not too gentle pursuasion ...... one pub near me closed after getting rocks throught the window.
About 250,000 people live in Newham in 2002. The borough is recognised
as the most ethnically diverse local authority in Britain. About half the
population belong to ethnic minority groups. Regeneration plans for the
borough continue into the 21st century, the aim being to make Newham a
place where people will choose to live, work and stay.
you can read all about the constantly changing nature of the borough of Newham here.
a fascinating and diverse history.
as the most ethnically diverse local authority in Britain. About half the
population belong to ethnic minority groups. Regeneration plans for the
borough continue into the 21st century, the aim being to make Newham a
place where people will choose to live, work and stay.
you can read all about the constantly changing nature of the borough of Newham here.
a fascinating and diverse history.
I've just remembered someting I saw on TV before Christmas. A junoir school from an 'ethnic' area of Halifax was singing carols & passing out samosas & mince pies to thank the locals for helping in rasing funds for the Pakistan earthquake. The headmaster was asked why 'muslim pupils' were signing carols ... he answered that as a mutli ethnic school they ALL celebrated Davali for the Hindu pupils, the end of Rhamadin foir the Muslim pupils & Chistmas for the Christian pupils ... in my opinion the guy is 100% correct, deserves to go far & I'll bet is loved by all of his pupils.
Very PC.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 12:55 AM)
Very PC.
Bollocks. PC would be taking the muslim kids out or not singing any carols.
It is an intergrationist approach - far more healthy.
In my first post I ment to say posters of Mecca were in the window of the Islamic bookshop. Great big ones, taken from the air during the Haj. It looks great, I'd like to go. I wrote what I did because I am stumped at what to think about how multi racial London has turned out. I only say London as its the place I know best. Is it working well? Some people think so and reckon the more diverse we become the better. We have a radio presenter here on BBC London, Robert Elms, who is such an enthuiast for what London has becme in this way. A really nice bloke. Of course not everybody shares his views on this issue, but they are welcome to leave it seems. The question I have is, what can you say when your own eyes tell you things are not that good. I live in south London, and would say that things were not good as far as social mixing go. The pubs are pretty much white, with black people prefering to go to black only wine bars. I,ve looked into a couple, not quite sure what they were as the windows are dark glass, only to see all heads turn my way, and someone ask "what do you want?" I wish things weren't like this. I'm sure there are some great places where everybody gets along great, I just don't know where they are. The trouble in Birmingham was terrible. The biggest issue for me was the atitude of many people in the black community, so ready to belive the story of the rape, and ready to start a boycott of Asain shops. Like it was Birmingham Alabama 1965. Here is something that has stayed with me for a long time. It was 1985 I think, and there was a "save the GLC" concert in Battersea Park, which I went to. A nice day, a big crowd. Lots of nice young liberal people, a nice feeling about the place. Billy Bragg sang some songs and spoke. Ken Livingston was there. The band OMD played a set towards evening, and it was pretty packed down at the front. Nearly all white people. Asswad were on after OMD, and when they went off, large numbers of young black people started to filter through the crowd to get down to the front. As they came through the mood changed for the worse when some of these black kids startrd assalting people. Just near me I saw a black girl smash a white girl in the face with her nails for some reason. Probably just for being in the way. Then young white people started coming back, many of them looking shocked and upset. By the time Asswad came on, I could see only a huge group of black people down at the front. Like a big mosh pit. I would say about a thousand. I couldnt see any white people among them. This noisy bunch were having a good time. They started punching the air and making " monkey'' noises, and this turned into a chant, again with fists raised that sounded like "too black-- too strong" over and over. After watching a bit of Asswad from further back more than a few of the people started to leave, fearing what might happen at the end. This was a good day turned ugly by some of the nastist people you would be unfortunate to come across. Why? I asked myself. How could so many people be that horrible? The only similar behavior I have seen from whites was when hundereds of skinheads would all turn up for a Sham 69 concert. Could those 1970's type of skins exist in large numbers today? Around the same time I went along to the Reggae Sunsplash concert at Crystal Palace. Again I saw gangs of black boys attacking the minority of white people there, pulling chains off girls necks and the like. These are local black kids who were getting a buzz out of such miserable behavior. It can shake your idealism when you see things like this. I'm not writing this to bash anybody. I could do with a bit of help thats all. A couple of years ago, mayor Ken said he would start to put policemen onto the busses, to try to do something about crime on busses. He singled out the routes running from Kennington down to Croydon, through Brixton and Streatham and Thornton Heath as being particularly bad; my part of London: south central. And I unfortunatly am a regular bus user through this area. Its not allways a nice experience taking a bus through here. Members of my family just wouldn't do it. I've yet to see a policeman on a bus. You could be forgiven (I think) for thinking that nearly all the trouble that goes on on these busses, particularly in the evenings, involves black and mixed race kids, stealing phones and sitting there on the back seats with a "what you lookin' at?" stare on their faces. This is what it's like. I presume not much can be done about it.
Damon your posts seem to fall into two areas, Newham and its large Asian populatian and South London and its Afro carribean population.
First Newham, I was born into a white working class family in the 1960's in that borough and lived there until aged 27 when I moved to another diverse borough (Waltham Forest for seven years) I now live in a very white area Havering. Newham was then pretty white but in the 1970's this started to change, the area had virtually no middle class and was/is very poor as indeed were my own family.
You ask why the whites left, well for a number of reaons, yes a lot of people have had prejudiced views, but also with the sale of council houses people became economically mobile and could afford to live in better homes in better areas.
The 1930's jewish population also when it established itself and prospered moved beyond the East End also the Heugoneuts have dispersed and dissapeared.
So why did the White population move well for some good reasons and some bad.
As for your South London experiances my wifes from your neck of the woods originally and I would sday this experiance has tought me not that racism has made black people passive victims but that our society means that to put it maybe too simply that black, white or asian some people are scum whatever colour they are. The chant you heard was indeed too black too strong a chant I have heard in other places a Malcolm X style chant I believe. But as MLK said we should be judged by the content of our character not the colour of our skin. Its hard to hang onto a possitive outlook when some aspects of inner city life are hostile.
But we can either let the scum of all colours races or classes win or we can build a proggressive society built on universal values, I don't think we can change the world but we can improve it a little bit.
First Newham, I was born into a white working class family in the 1960's in that borough and lived there until aged 27 when I moved to another diverse borough (Waltham Forest for seven years) I now live in a very white area Havering. Newham was then pretty white but in the 1970's this started to change, the area had virtually no middle class and was/is very poor as indeed were my own family.
You ask why the whites left, well for a number of reaons, yes a lot of people have had prejudiced views, but also with the sale of council houses people became economically mobile and could afford to live in better homes in better areas.
The 1930's jewish population also when it established itself and prospered moved beyond the East End also the Heugoneuts have dispersed and dissapeared.
So why did the White population move well for some good reasons and some bad.
As for your South London experiances my wifes from your neck of the woods originally and I would sday this experiance has tought me not that racism has made black people passive victims but that our society means that to put it maybe too simply that black, white or asian some people are scum whatever colour they are. The chant you heard was indeed too black too strong a chant I have heard in other places a Malcolm X style chant I believe. But as MLK said we should be judged by the content of our character not the colour of our skin. Its hard to hang onto a possitive outlook when some aspects of inner city life are hostile.
But we can either let the scum of all colours races or classes win or we can build a proggressive society built on universal values, I don't think we can change the world but we can improve it a little bit.
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jan 4 2006, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 12:55 AM)
Very PC.
Bollocks. PC would be taking the muslim kids out or not singing any carols.
It is an intergrationist approach - far more healthy.
IF a school has large numbers of christain kids,muslim kids,and hindu kids....etc,etc.Then maybe there is a justification for learning about Davali and Rhamadam..etc,but i do not agree that those festivals should be celebrated in equal context to Christmas or easter..etc.Those festivals have been celebrated in British schools for many hundreds of years.They are a long standing tradition and institution in british schools passed down from generation to generation.They should hold greater importance in the curriculum that new festivals that have brought over to this county very recently.
Did we all celebrate Davali and rhamadam in school? Of course not.Recently my four year old niece came home form school and told us see had been celebrating Davali. Apparently her class had a Davali-day.As her class or indeed her school has NO child in it ,that is either Muslim or celebrates Davali,many of the parents were less that happy that some Lefty teacher had taking it open herself to force her own PC views into the curriculum.
KLF re the above - You really are a knob at times. So they didn't do COMPULSORY until 13 RE at your school?
As an atheist who is bringing up his children in a non religious home I'd prefer for all religious practice to be kept out of schools. I don't like the fact my kids are obliged to say "grace" before eating their packed lunches but I don't get bent out of shape about it.
If you're being forced to learn about Christianity and Christian festivals it surely follows that you should also learn about other religions and their festivals.
If you wiped the muck form your eyes occasionally you'd see (Specifically in the case of your young niece) not her being brainwashed PC lefty teachers but the rather nice light she more than likely made.
The fact that "many" (although I suspect few if any) "were less than happy" is a display of there ignorance about what the kids are actually being taught in schools. Perhaps they should be more attentive.
As an atheist who is bringing up his children in a non religious home I'd prefer for all religious practice to be kept out of schools. I don't like the fact my kids are obliged to say "grace" before eating their packed lunches but I don't get bent out of shape about it.
If you're being forced to learn about Christianity and Christian festivals it surely follows that you should also learn about other religions and their festivals.
If you wiped the muck form your eyes occasionally you'd see (Specifically in the case of your young niece) not her being brainwashed PC lefty teachers but the rather nice light she more than likely made.
The fact that "many" (although I suspect few if any) "were less than happy" is a display of there ignorance about what the kids are actually being taught in schools. Perhaps they should be more attentive.
You didn't answer the question, Dickie. Did YOU celebrate Davali whilst at school?
I want my children and nieces and nephews to have the same education that i had, the same schooling that my parents had before them,and their parents before them.I'm sure you would accept that,if other cultures from across the world wanted to uphold traditions and uphold a way of bringing their family up, that was passed from generation to generation.Why can't you extend that right to people of this Isle?
I want my children in Junior school to make easter eggs at Easter. I want my children to make cards and advent calenders at Christmas..etc.I do not particually want my children celebrating Rhamadam or Davali.Not because i do not respect other cultures or their festivals, but because those festivals and cultures play no part in my life or my culture.Things like Easter and Chrishmas DO play a part in my life, and in the traditions of how i was raised,and how generations of my family were raised before me,AND how i want my children to be raised.
If i settled in India or Egpyt or anywhere else.I wouldn't expect those people to put aside thousands of years of their on culture and traditions just to accomadate my beliefs and traditions from my own culture.
I want my children and nieces and nephews to have the same education that i had, the same schooling that my parents had before them,and their parents before them.I'm sure you would accept that,if other cultures from across the world wanted to uphold traditions and uphold a way of bringing their family up, that was passed from generation to generation.Why can't you extend that right to people of this Isle?
I want my children in Junior school to make easter eggs at Easter. I want my children to make cards and advent calenders at Christmas..etc.I do not particually want my children celebrating Rhamadam or Davali.Not because i do not respect other cultures or their festivals, but because those festivals and cultures play no part in my life or my culture.Things like Easter and Chrishmas DO play a part in my life, and in the traditions of how i was raised,and how generations of my family were raised before me,AND how i want my children to be raised.
If i settled in India or Egpyt or anywhere else.I wouldn't expect those people to put aside thousands of years of their on culture and traditions just to accomadate my beliefs and traditions from my own culture.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM)
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jan 4 2006, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 12:55 AM)
Very PC.
Bollocks. PC would be taking the muslim kids out or not singing any carols.
It is an intergrationist approach - far more healthy.
IF a school has large numbers of christain kids,muslim kids,and hindu kids....etc,etc.Then maybe there is a justification for learning about Davali and Rhamadam..etc,but i do not agree that those festivals should be celebrated in equal context to Christmas or easter..etc.Those festivals have been celebrated in British schools for many hundreds of years.They are a long standing tradition and institution in british schools passed down from generation to generation.They should hold greater importance in the curriculum that new festivals that have brought over to this county very recently.
Did we all celebrate Davali and rhamadam in school? Of course not.Recently my four year old niece came home form school and told us see had been celebrating Davali. Apparently her class had a Davali-day.As her class or indeed her school has NO child in it ,that is either Muslim or celebrates Davali,many of the parents were less that happy that some Lefty teacher had taking it open herself to force her own PC views into the curriculum.
As I said the school in question had a large proportion of 'ethnic' students. The PC answer would have been to let each group celebrate on their own & stop the 'English' minority celebrating Christmas. The headmaster (I didn't mention in it my earlier post, but he was a 'Yorkshire' speaking 'ethnic') was trying to integrate everyone. The children were obviously having a good time
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 11:40 AM)
IF a school has large numbers of christain kids,muslim kids,and hindu kids....etc,etc.Then maybe there is a justification for learning about Davali and Rhamadam..etc,but i do not agree that those festivals should be celebrated in equal context to Christmas or easter..etc.Those festivals have been celebrated in British schools for many hundreds of years.They are a long standing tradition and institution in british schools passed down from generation to generation.They should hold greater importance in the curriculum that new festivals that have brought over to this county very recently.
Shows what you know. Compulsory Education between 5-10 was only introduced in 1880, until that time the vast majority of children, especially working class children were lucky to get any schooling at all outside of Sunday School.
As for the teaching of comparative religion, I think it is extremely important for kids to learn about all religions - not just Christianity. Contrary to what you might think we are not a homogonous Christian nation - in fact we have very few practising Christians in the UK - we celebrate Christmas and Easter out of habit - after all they are ancient pagan festivals - not Christian ones.
I WANT my children to learn about Eid, Ramadan, Hanukkah and Divali. I want them to learn and understand the world they live in. Didn't you learn about Passover at school - I know I did. Also We were also made to pray in every assembly - something I am very glad has been abolished.
Comparative religion should be taught in schools but faith should remain at home.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 11:40 AM)
Did we all celebrate Davali and rhamadam in school? Of course not.Recently my four year old niece came home form school and told us see had been celebrating Davali. Apparently her class had a Davali-day.As her class or indeed her school has NO child in it ,that is either Muslim or celebrates Davali,many of the parents were less that happy that some Lefty teacher had taking it open herself to force her own PC views into the curriculum.
Ignorant and racist attitude. Comparative religion is part of the national curriculum - IT HAS TO BE TAUGHT!!!!!
National curriculum:
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian" whilst also taking account other principal religions.
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian" whilst also taking account other principal religions.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 01:50 PM)
National curriculum:
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian" whilst also taking account other principal religions.
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian" whilst also taking account other principal religions.
whilst also taking account other principal religions
QED
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 01:50 PM)
National curriculum:
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian" whilst also taking account other principal religions.
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian" whilst also taking account other principal religions.
Actually - I was wrong - RE is compulsory - but not subject to National Curriculum - syllabuses are drawn up in local areas.
here is a suggested syllabus for keys atges 1+2 from the DfE. As you can see the majority of the lessons are on Christainity but the kids are also introduced to Hinduism, Judaism and Islam.
QUOTE(DfE schemes of work website)
Unit RA. What are harvest festivals?
Unit RB. Who were the friends of Jesus?
Unit RC. Who was Noah?
Unit 1A. What does it mean to belong? - Generic
Unit 1B. What does it mean to belong in Christianity?
Unit 1C. Celebrations: why do Christians give gifts at Christmas?
Unit 1D. Beliefs and practice - Generic
Unit 1E. How do Jewish people express their beliefs in practice?
Unit 1F. What can we learn from visiting a church?
Unit 2A. What is the Torah and why is it important to Jewish people?
Unit 2B. Why did Jesus tell stories?
Unit 2C. Celebrations - Generic
Unit 2D. Visiting a place of worship - Generic
Unit 3A. What do signs and symbols mean in religion?
Unit 3B. How and why do Hindus celebrate Divali?
Unit 3C. What do we know about Jesus?
Unit 3D. What is the Bible and why is it important for Christians?
Unit 3E. What is faith and what difference does it make?
Unit 4A. How and why do Hindus worship at home and in the mandir?
Unit 4B. Celebrations: Christmas journeys
Unit 4C. Why is Easter important for Christians?
Unit 4D. What religions are represented in our neighbourhood?
Unit 5A. Why is Muhammad important to Muslims?
Unit 5B. How do Muslims express their beliefs through practices?
Unit 5C. Where did the Christian Bible come from?
Unit 5D. How do the beliefs of Christians influence their actions?
Unit 6A. Worship and community - Generic
Unit 6B. Worship and community: what is the role of the mosque?
Unit 6C. Why are sacred texts important? - Generic
Unit 6D. What is the Qur'an and why is it important to Muslims?
Unit 6E. What can we learn from Christian religious buildings?
Unit 6F. How do people express their faith through the arts?
Unit RB. Who were the friends of Jesus?
Unit RC. Who was Noah?
Unit 1A. What does it mean to belong? - Generic
Unit 1B. What does it mean to belong in Christianity?
Unit 1C. Celebrations: why do Christians give gifts at Christmas?
Unit 1D. Beliefs and practice - Generic
Unit 1E. How do Jewish people express their beliefs in practice?
Unit 1F. What can we learn from visiting a church?
Unit 2A. What is the Torah and why is it important to Jewish people?
Unit 2B. Why did Jesus tell stories?
Unit 2C. Celebrations - Generic
Unit 2D. Visiting a place of worship - Generic
Unit 3A. What do signs and symbols mean in religion?
Unit 3B. How and why do Hindus celebrate Divali?
Unit 3C. What do we know about Jesus?
Unit 3D. What is the Bible and why is it important for Christians?
Unit 3E. What is faith and what difference does it make?
Unit 4A. How and why do Hindus worship at home and in the mandir?
Unit 4B. Celebrations: Christmas journeys
Unit 4C. Why is Easter important for Christians?
Unit 4D. What religions are represented in our neighbourhood?
Unit 5A. Why is Muhammad important to Muslims?
Unit 5B. How do Muslims express their beliefs through practices?
Unit 5C. Where did the Christian Bible come from?
Unit 5D. How do the beliefs of Christians influence their actions?
Unit 6A. Worship and community - Generic
Unit 6B. Worship and community: what is the role of the mosque?
Unit 6C. Why are sacred texts important? - Generic
Unit 6D. What is the Qur'an and why is it important to Muslims?
Unit 6E. What can we learn from Christian religious buildings?
Unit 6F. How do people express their faith through the arts?
As i said.I have no problem with Children learning about all religions(when they are old enough).That is different form making a class of 4 year olds celebrate Davali.
Also you are right.Christmas and Easter are not exclusively christian. Or festivals that only christains celebrate. They are traditions that have been embedded in our culture for many hundreds of years,and celebrated by many many generations.(and go way beyond 'religion').To suddenly give festivals from other cultures, especially those that the majority do not celebrate,equal importance to our own,is political correctness at its worst.
Also you are right.Christmas and Easter are not exclusively christian. Or festivals that only christains celebrate. They are traditions that have been embedded in our culture for many hundreds of years,and celebrated by many many generations.(and go way beyond 'religion').To suddenly give festivals from other cultures, especially those that the majority do not celebrate,equal importance to our own,is political correctness at its worst.
QUOTE
whilst also taking account other principal religions
QED
QED
Any new syllabus must "reflect the fact that the religious traditions of this country are, in the main, Christian"
QED - indeed.
So if a school gives other religious festivals equal importance to Christian festivals, that goes against that directive.Does it not? Which was my point in the first place.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 02:10 PM)
As i said.I have no problem with Children learning about all religions(when they are old enough).That is different form making a class of 4 year olds celebrate Davali.
Also you are right.Christmas and Easter are not exclusively christian. Or festivals that only christains celebrate. They are traditions that have been embedded in our culture for many hundreds of years,and celebrated by many many generations.(and go way beyond 'religion').To suddenly give festivals from other cultures, especially those that the majority do not celebrate,equal importance to our own,is political correctness at its worst.
Also you are right.Christmas and Easter are not exclusively christian. Or festivals that only christains celebrate. They are traditions that have been embedded in our culture for many hundreds of years,and celebrated by many many generations.(and go way beyond 'religion').To suddenly give festivals from other cultures, especially those that the majority do not celebrate,equal importance to our own,is political correctness at its worst.
You haven't been in a school for a while have you.
The kids don't "celebrate" they learn - did you ever celebrate Christmas or Easter in an RE lesson - NO - you LEARNED what it was about. Kids learn about the story of Rama and Sita, make divas and watch videos showing how Divali is celebrated.
Kids love this stuff and at the same time we are teaching them to be respectful and understanding of all religions and cultures. I would take my kid out of any class I thought had a teacher who was proselytizing.
It is not political correctness - it is education.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 02:18 PM)
QED - indeed.
So if a school gives other religious festivals equal importance to Christian festivals, that goes against that directive.Does it not? Which was my point in the first place.
So if a school gives other religious festivals equal importance to Christian festivals, that goes against that directive.Does it not? Which was my point in the first place.
no. your point is that nice little white kids shouldn't be taught paki superstitions.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 11:52 AM)
If i settled in India or Egpyt or anywhere else.I wouldn't expect those people to put aside thousands of years of their on culture and traditions just to accomadate my beliefs and traditions from my own culture.
Yet today, there are around 14 million Arabs in and round egpty who are Coptic Christians. Christian generations since the fourth century. so so ya can celebrate christmas there KLF.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/christmas.htm
as for india
QUOTE
Christmas Traditions in India
India celebrates almost all festivals that are celebrated by all religions the world over. Christmas is also celebrated in the country with gaiety and spirit of the season, but with a uniquely Indian flavor…the best of both worlds.
By Kanika Goswami, 12/25/2004
Even though Christians form a minority community in India, this does not dampen the Christmas and New Year celebrations across the length and breadth of the country. Christmas is celebrated by believers and non-believers alike, complete with scenes of Nativity, Christmas puddings and even Christmas trees (even though fir trees grow only in the northern hilly tracts of the country).
Legend has it that Christmas was originally celebrated by Romans as a Pagan festival, dedicated to the Sun God, and symbolizing the victory of light over darkness. It was much later that December 25th came to be celebrated as the birthday of Jesus Christ (in fact only around 345 AD). One may safely say that despite the fact that Christmas is widely regarded as a Christian festival; the basic spirit it imbibes is that of family traditions, celebrations, greetings and gifts. After three hundred years of colonization, Christianity and English are an inseparable part of the Indian culture. Besides, Indians are a people who just need a reason to celebrate and Christmas seems to be as good a reason as any other. So a large number of Indians decorate their homes with the glowing star and little Christmas trees…even if the climate disagrees with the white Christmas concept. Trees are celebrated with tinsel stars, cotton snow flakes, lights, candy and cakes. Carols singing and sending cards are a must for every educated Indian, in fact, cards are not sent for Indian festivals as much as for Christmas and New Year (a Roman concept).
Parties and dancing is an integral part of the festivities, and all Indians, at least all urban Indians participate in them wholeheartedly. Classy hotels, smaller clubs and restaurants, groups of friends, schools, colleges and almost all social organizations have parties, eat, drink, dance and celebrate. There is no dearth of good spirit even if it is not just a good Christian spirit!!! Gifts are exchanged, according to the depth of the pockets and Santa Claus brings gifts to a lot of good Indian children, just as he does around the Christian world!!
On a more serious note, the concentration of Christian faith is more in the north Eastern Hills and along the western, Southern coastline of the country. Each of these areas add their cultural flavor to their faith and the result is one cosmopolitan celebration of the birth of the Savoir and of family values. The Goans, on the west coast, from the land of palm fringed beaches and coconut feni, the Khasis, Mizos and Naga tribes of the North East, the orthodox Catholics, Syrians and Protestants of Kerala, all add the flavor of their native culture, be it in the music and dance, food or spirits. The service is usually in the local language and festivities almost always include local games and activities.
Each area has a distinctly different way of celebrating Christmas. In far North Eastern Mizoram, Christmas is a community event, a time for community feasting, called Lengkhawn Zai, (with roots in pre Christian era). Their Christmas carols are low, soft songs, more signifying spiritual joy than festivity. Goa is one favorite destination for Christmas celebrations, in fact a very large number of people from the country as well as abroad make a beeline to this little coastal state to celebrate their Christmas holidays in style.
Generally the Christians who live in the plains decorate mango or banana trees at Christmas time, some even use mango leaves to decorate their homes, like during Hindu festivals. During the Christmas service, most churches are decorated with pointsepias and candles. In fact, one of the first things that one notices about an Indian Christmas is the presence of point sepia leaves instead of holly (holly does not grow in 80% of the country).
In South India, little clay lamps are lit in homes. Their wicks are twisted so the flame lasts longer, and these tiny lamps decorate the walls and houses of the clean, green countryside as well as urban centers.
Kerala does it with more religious fervor, the most favorite tourist destination for foreigners to the country, this coastal state, popularly known as God’s own country, is believed to be the cradle of Christian civilization in the country, ever since a number of centuries ago, when St Thomas made it his land of missionary zeal. There are a number of old, wealthy, Christian communities there, and Christmas in Kerala is serious business, more faith than mere celebrations.
Even though the Christmas lunch menu is roast duck, sometimes pork and mince pies, there is a decided presence of stew and appams (pancakes made of a batter of rice flour and coconut milk, to be enjoyed with mutton stew, a very typical South Indian delicacy) too, the spirit of Christmas is present like nowhere else. There is avial, in other south Indian states, murukku (a fried pretzel made of lentil and rice flour), and athirasam gracing the table alongside the Christmas pudding. Sweets like rose cookies, doughnuts and diamond cuts are usually home made like cookies in the western countries.
Tropical plants, children in gaily colored dresses, devout believers attending the midnight or morning Mass, drums and hymns accompany the December 25th celebrations. Santa Clauses in all shapes and sizes but duly attired in their large red dresses and snow white beards give out sweets to children from street corners, shops and even schools. For days in advance, Christmas Carols are sung in Christian households, and a large star is hung up in the front of the house. Gifts are exchanged, tips are given around, and many a Hindu couple ends up spending more on Christmas gifts to each other than they would for a Hindu festival. This is the spirit of Christmas in India.
India celebrates almost all festivals that are celebrated by all religions the world over. Christmas is also celebrated in the country with gaiety and spirit of the season, but with a uniquely Indian flavor…the best of both worlds.
By Kanika Goswami, 12/25/2004
Even though Christians form a minority community in India, this does not dampen the Christmas and New Year celebrations across the length and breadth of the country. Christmas is celebrated by believers and non-believers alike, complete with scenes of Nativity, Christmas puddings and even Christmas trees (even though fir trees grow only in the northern hilly tracts of the country).
Legend has it that Christmas was originally celebrated by Romans as a Pagan festival, dedicated to the Sun God, and symbolizing the victory of light over darkness. It was much later that December 25th came to be celebrated as the birthday of Jesus Christ (in fact only around 345 AD). One may safely say that despite the fact that Christmas is widely regarded as a Christian festival; the basic spirit it imbibes is that of family traditions, celebrations, greetings and gifts. After three hundred years of colonization, Christianity and English are an inseparable part of the Indian culture. Besides, Indians are a people who just need a reason to celebrate and Christmas seems to be as good a reason as any other. So a large number of Indians decorate their homes with the glowing star and little Christmas trees…even if the climate disagrees with the white Christmas concept. Trees are celebrated with tinsel stars, cotton snow flakes, lights, candy and cakes. Carols singing and sending cards are a must for every educated Indian, in fact, cards are not sent for Indian festivals as much as for Christmas and New Year (a Roman concept).
Parties and dancing is an integral part of the festivities, and all Indians, at least all urban Indians participate in them wholeheartedly. Classy hotels, smaller clubs and restaurants, groups of friends, schools, colleges and almost all social organizations have parties, eat, drink, dance and celebrate. There is no dearth of good spirit even if it is not just a good Christian spirit!!! Gifts are exchanged, according to the depth of the pockets and Santa Claus brings gifts to a lot of good Indian children, just as he does around the Christian world!!
On a more serious note, the concentration of Christian faith is more in the north Eastern Hills and along the western, Southern coastline of the country. Each of these areas add their cultural flavor to their faith and the result is one cosmopolitan celebration of the birth of the Savoir and of family values. The Goans, on the west coast, from the land of palm fringed beaches and coconut feni, the Khasis, Mizos and Naga tribes of the North East, the orthodox Catholics, Syrians and Protestants of Kerala, all add the flavor of their native culture, be it in the music and dance, food or spirits. The service is usually in the local language and festivities almost always include local games and activities.
Each area has a distinctly different way of celebrating Christmas. In far North Eastern Mizoram, Christmas is a community event, a time for community feasting, called Lengkhawn Zai, (with roots in pre Christian era). Their Christmas carols are low, soft songs, more signifying spiritual joy than festivity. Goa is one favorite destination for Christmas celebrations, in fact a very large number of people from the country as well as abroad make a beeline to this little coastal state to celebrate their Christmas holidays in style.
Generally the Christians who live in the plains decorate mango or banana trees at Christmas time, some even use mango leaves to decorate their homes, like during Hindu festivals. During the Christmas service, most churches are decorated with pointsepias and candles. In fact, one of the first things that one notices about an Indian Christmas is the presence of point sepia leaves instead of holly (holly does not grow in 80% of the country).
In South India, little clay lamps are lit in homes. Their wicks are twisted so the flame lasts longer, and these tiny lamps decorate the walls and houses of the clean, green countryside as well as urban centers.
Kerala does it with more religious fervor, the most favorite tourist destination for foreigners to the country, this coastal state, popularly known as God’s own country, is believed to be the cradle of Christian civilization in the country, ever since a number of centuries ago, when St Thomas made it his land of missionary zeal. There are a number of old, wealthy, Christian communities there, and Christmas in Kerala is serious business, more faith than mere celebrations.
Even though the Christmas lunch menu is roast duck, sometimes pork and mince pies, there is a decided presence of stew and appams (pancakes made of a batter of rice flour and coconut milk, to be enjoyed with mutton stew, a very typical South Indian delicacy) too, the spirit of Christmas is present like nowhere else. There is avial, in other south Indian states, murukku (a fried pretzel made of lentil and rice flour), and athirasam gracing the table alongside the Christmas pudding. Sweets like rose cookies, doughnuts and diamond cuts are usually home made like cookies in the western countries.
Tropical plants, children in gaily colored dresses, devout believers attending the midnight or morning Mass, drums and hymns accompany the December 25th celebrations. Santa Clauses in all shapes and sizes but duly attired in their large red dresses and snow white beards give out sweets to children from street corners, shops and even schools. For days in advance, Christmas Carols are sung in Christian households, and a large star is hung up in the front of the house. Gifts are exchanged, tips are given around, and many a Hindu couple ends up spending more on Christmas gifts to each other than they would for a Hindu festival. This is the spirit of Christmas in India.
QUOTE(Lee_Harvey_Oswald @ Jan 4 2006, 02:39 PM)
QUOTE
Christmas Traditions in India
Legend has it that Christmas was originally celebrated by Romans as a Pagan festival, dedicated to the Sun God, and symbolizing the victory of light over darkness. It was much later that December 25th came to be celebrated as the birthday of Jesus Christ (in fact only around 345 AD).
Legend has it that Christmas was originally celebrated by Romans as a Pagan festival, dedicated to the Sun God, and symbolizing the victory of light over darkness. It was much later that December 25th came to be celebrated as the birthday of Jesus Christ (in fact only around 345 AD).
All established fact actually!!!!!!!
Christmas also celebrated increasingly in China and Japan - all part of Globalistaion - Christmas - the ultimate festival of capitalism?
QUOTE
Christmas also celebrated increasingly in China and Japan - all part of Globalistaion - Christmas - the ultimate festival of capitalism?
KLF is right about one thing, there is a degree of self-loathing in some of the posts on here. Take this, for instance. Christmas is ridiculed as the 'ultimate festival of capitalism' while Divali and Ramadan, which are also celebrated around the world wherever individuals of those religions live, are treated with respect.
Personally, I'm an atheist, but I would never treat Christmas with such discrespect. Not least because Santa knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good…
I think I understand why people get upset over their kids being taught to celebrate (in some cases, yes, they do have celebrations) or take part in days that are, strictly speaking, religious. That's natural. I remember once when my babysitter took me to mass with her when I was a child, my Baptist father about blew a gasket. If I was exposed to other religions, my parents wanted to be the ones to do it. I sympathise with that perspective. However, I think it's limiting, and, if exposure to other religious beliefs is handled compassionately, as it clearly was with the school described here, it's hard to imagine anybody logically opposing it.
Still it's a very dicey area, and I can see why some schools drop the whole thing, which is a bit of a shame because it's fun for kids to have little celebration days at school, and, hell, when they're really little it's nothing but cupcakes to them. It's not like they'll be indoctrinated. It's a way to see other religions as unthreatening… even though some of them are, a little.
QUOTE
KLF is right about one thing, there is a degree of self-loathing in some of the posts on here
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DC14.htm
QUOTE
You haven't been in a school for a while have you.
Too right. I teach in a Catholic primary school where KLF's racist prejudices would be understood, taken on board, and then countered. I'm a humanist btw.I normally do
, but I feel the need to reiterate that this guy really doesn't have a clue.
QUOTE(Mata @ Jan 4 2006, 03:14 PM)
QUOTE
Christmas also celebrated increasingly in China and Japan - all part of Globalistaion - Christmas - the ultimate festival of capitalism?
KLF is right about one thing, there is a degree of self-loathing in some of the posts on here. Take this, for instance. Christmas is ridiculed as the 'ultimate festival of capitalism' while Divali and Ramadan, which are also celebrated around the world wherever individuals of those religions live, are treated with respect.
You don't think Christmas has become increasingly commercial?
Why are the papers full of stories about retail sales over the christmas period, why do i keep reading about footfall surveys, Supermarket deliveries being all booked up etc.
Why do the Christmas decorations in the High Street go up in October? Why are the stores packed ceiling to floor with useless shit you wouldn't buy for yourself?
Christmas is suppossed to be a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Comparatively recently it has also become a festival of family - although this has little to do with Christianity, and even more recently it has become a very commercial fare - with expectations of larger and more expensive presents rather than token gifts. It is this side of Christmas which is being exported to non-Christian countries - not a reflection on what the birth of Jesus Christ might mean.
And I love Christmas - I enjoy the food and the wine and giving and receiving gifts and seeing people I don't see often - I love the looks on my kids faces when they open their presents - I love even more that they are as excited about giving and buying presents for others as receiving them. I just hate the build up and hate to see the pressure people are put under to conform in certain ways and how depressed that makes many people feel - the way people get into debt to buy their kids the latest toys and the need to get totally wankered and act really stupid at the office party.
QUOTE(Pete @ Jan 4 2006, 03:48 PM)
I'm a humanist btw.
for the record - so am I
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jan 4 2006, 02:51 PM)
QUOTE(Pete @ Jan 4 2006, 03:48 PM)
I'm a humanist btw.
for the record - so am I
As long as that 'Human' is not a middle-class white Briton....eh,Rob?
Please refure to my previous link about 'self-loathing'.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 03:28 PM)
QUOTE
KLF is right about one thing, there is a degree of self-loathing in some of the posts on here
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DC14.htm
Drivel. Sorry but i'm not ashamed of being white - it is the colour of my skin - so what?
I don't advocate black victimhood - I advocate equal rights and opportunities regardless of race, class or gender. I make no apologies for "black" gun crime because I make no apologies for "gun crime".
I love Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Kraftwerk, Afrika Baambatta and dislike gangsta rap.
Sorry but your article is full of shit.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 03:57 PM)
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jan 4 2006, 02:51 PM)
QUOTE(Pete @ Jan 4 2006, 03:48 PM)
I'm a humanist btw.
for the record - so am I
As long as that 'Human' is not a middle-class white Briton....eh,Rob?
Please refure to my previous link about 'self-loathing'.
oh fuck off you paranoid prick
Actually I've just realised that the contents of this thread would make a good starter for debate for my Y6 PSHE class. Ruth Kelly would be up for it, too, I'm sure. Keep it coming.
QUOTE(Pete @ Jan 4 2006, 04:14 PM)
Actually I've just realised that the contents of this thread would make a good starter for debate for my Y6 PSHE class. Ruth Kelly would be up for it, too, I'm sure. Keep it coming.
you could invite KLF along though I think Y6 may be a bit advanced for him
Way over his head. The Indian Catholic kids (no contradiction) I work with would have a few words to say, I’m sure.
A couple of years back I was working with this black guy, and the news on the radio was about the two murders that had taken place at the notting hill carnival at the weekend. We got talking about it, and I asked him why with all the people at the carnival, no one felt able to do anything about the roving gangs of black kids who would start "steaming" through the crowds attacking people at random. One of the dead was an asian man who was running a stall, stabbed to death. He told me everyone was scared of these youths. Fair enough answer. Then I asked a question which made him laugh. I asked what would happen if a tough gang of white youths went up to the carnival and started causing trouble. A really mean, hard "firm" of white geezers. What a stupid question. It just wouldn't happen. If any ever tried it, they would be, I think he said, hanging from the lampposts with in two minutes. I think thats a good guess at what might happen. Does that mean that the black community turns a blind eye towards aggresive behavior that comes from within their own community, but will not tolerate it from outside? Something in the local paper caught my eye last year. It said that in the early hours one morning, in London road Croydon (its the A23 that runs up to Thornton Heath) a dozen or so white men, beat up and racially abused two black men. It said that passing motorists stopped to help, and drove off the white racists.
I thought it through. Quiet empty streets, with just the odd car going past. Not a time or place to bump into some bad people. When I'm on my bike going down that road at some ridiculously early hour to start work, I've allways thought, you're on your own. But the black community doesnt take any crap from whites.
A car goes by with a couple of black dudes in it. They see whats going on and stop.
Another car goes by and that also stops, they wave down another car, and now these six or seven black guys who dont even know each other, are ready to get stuck in to help these other two black guys. The white racist cowards see the situation developing and wisely leg it. They know they cant win. If they tried to stand and fight, within five minutes they would be in serious trouble.
Just an observation.
One last thing. When Diane Abbott said she was sending her son to a private school, not a local north London comprehensive, one of the reasons she gave was that because of racism too many black boys were failing in school. Is this fair? Blame the racist teachers. Wouldn't teachers in a private school be racist too? I thought a private reason might be that she didn't want her son hanging out with too many black boys and becoming "street". And by the way, one of my favorite journalists is Yasmin Allibi Brown who writes in the Independent. She thinks white
Britain needs to lighten up when it comes to anxieties about immigration etc. Is that fair? I just saw a BBC World programme about cousin marriage in the British Pakistani community. I think the figures were 50% over all, and 75% in the Bradford Pakistani community. That is, the percentages of british born people who marry their fisrt cousin. What they didn't say was where the cousins were coming from. England or Pakistan? If it's a large amount from Pakistan, do the rest of us have the right to say any thing about it?
I thought it through. Quiet empty streets, with just the odd car going past. Not a time or place to bump into some bad people. When I'm on my bike going down that road at some ridiculously early hour to start work, I've allways thought, you're on your own. But the black community doesnt take any crap from whites.
A car goes by with a couple of black dudes in it. They see whats going on and stop.
Another car goes by and that also stops, they wave down another car, and now these six or seven black guys who dont even know each other, are ready to get stuck in to help these other two black guys. The white racist cowards see the situation developing and wisely leg it. They know they cant win. If they tried to stand and fight, within five minutes they would be in serious trouble.
Just an observation.
One last thing. When Diane Abbott said she was sending her son to a private school, not a local north London comprehensive, one of the reasons she gave was that because of racism too many black boys were failing in school. Is this fair? Blame the racist teachers. Wouldn't teachers in a private school be racist too? I thought a private reason might be that she didn't want her son hanging out with too many black boys and becoming "street". And by the way, one of my favorite journalists is Yasmin Allibi Brown who writes in the Independent. She thinks white
Britain needs to lighten up when it comes to anxieties about immigration etc. Is that fair? I just saw a BBC World programme about cousin marriage in the British Pakistani community. I think the figures were 50% over all, and 75% in the Bradford Pakistani community. That is, the percentages of british born people who marry their fisrt cousin. What they didn't say was where the cousins were coming from. England or Pakistan? If it's a large amount from Pakistan, do the rest of us have the right to say any thing about it?
QUOTE(damon @ Jan 5 2006, 05:21 AM)
I just saw a BBC World programme about cousin marriage in the British Pakistani community. I think the figures were 50% over all, and 75% in the Bradford Pakistani community. That is, the percentages of british born people who marry their fisrt cousin. What they didn't say was where the cousins were coming from. England or Pakistan? If it's a large amount from Pakistan, do the rest of us have the right to say any thing about it?
No one care about were the cousin comes from, people are more concerned about the children being born with genetic disorders that are caused by variant genes. this issue has nothing to do with were the spouse comes from.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442646.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm
QUOTE
No one care about were the cousin comes from
I do.
Damon,
Sure there a lot of tough black lads out there and some young black men can be criminal and some of there victims will be white, for racist reasons but some of their victims will be black after all black on black crime is quite common.
I think its a myth about the toughness of black men they vary like we all do.
Most football hooligan gangs are largely white after all and the Metropolitan Police is too and they don't lose many battles.
Mick
Sure there a lot of tough black lads out there and some young black men can be criminal and some of there victims will be white, for racist reasons but some of their victims will be black after all black on black crime is quite common.
I think its a myth about the toughness of black men they vary like we all do.
Most football hooligan gangs are largely white after all and the Metropolitan Police is too and they don't lose many battles.
Mick
QUOTE(Mick H @ Jan 5 2006, 11:46 AM)
Damon,
Sure there a lot of tough black lads out there and some young black men can be criminal and some of there victims will be white, for racist reasons but some of their victims will be black after all black on black crime is quite common.
I think its a myth about the toughness of black men they vary like we all do.
Most football hooligan gangs are largely white after all and the Metropolitan Police is too and they don't lose many battles.
Mick
Sure there a lot of tough black lads out there and some young black men can be criminal and some of there victims will be white, for racist reasons but some of their victims will be black after all black on black crime is quite common.
I think its a myth about the toughness of black men they vary like we all do.
Most football hooligan gangs are largely white after all and the Metropolitan Police is too and they don't lose many battles.
Mick
I must admit to being terified of the Met. It's claimed the Met were the ones who caused most of the trouble in the miner's strike ..... & I'll never forget being in the stands at Arsenal in the late 80's. A couple of lads were sounding off .... nothing really bad, but just winding up the police .... I thought one WPC was going to lay into everyone around us in retaliation.
Intersting fact on Radio2 this morning.4 out of every 10 black men in Britain ,now have their DNA records held on the police national computer.
With regard to damon.Nearly every shooting in Britain is black-on-black.Also Nigerians and West Indians are two seperate entity's.
On a different note.There were 600,000 stabbings reported in Britan last year.
38 serious stabbings this new years eve in london,in the 3 hour period between midnight and 3am .
With regard to damon.Nearly every shooting in Britain is black-on-black.Also Nigerians and West Indians are two seperate entity's.
On a different note.There were 600,000 stabbings reported in Britan last year.
38 serious stabbings this new years eve in london,in the 3 hour period between midnight and 3am
.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM)
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Jan 4 2006, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 12:55 AM)
Very PC.
Bollocks. PC would be taking the muslim kids out or not singing any carols.
It is an intergrationist approach - far more healthy.
IF a school has large numbers of christain kids,muslim kids,and hindu kids....etc,etc.Then maybe there is a justification for learning about Davali and Rhamadam..etc,but i do not agree that those festivals should be celebrated in equal context to Christmas or easter..etc.Those festivals have been celebrated in British schools for many hundreds of years.They are a long standing tradition and institution in british schools passed down from generation to generation.They should hold greater importance in the curriculum that new festivals that have brought over to this county very recently.
Did we all celebrate Davali and rhamadam in school? Of course not.Recently my four year old niece came home form school and told us see had been celebrating Davali. Apparently her class had a Davali-day.As her class or indeed her school has NO child in it ,that is either Muslim or celebrates Davali,many of the parents were less that happy that some Lefty teacher had taking it open herself to force her own PC views into the curriculum.
The point is that the kids learn about all kinds of cultures in the hope that one day they will want to go out and explore the world. There is NOTHING more educational than that. Nothing. This teacher is to be commended.
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 4 2006, 11:52 AM)
You didn't answer the question, Dickie. Did YOU celebrate Davali whilst at school?
I want my children and nieces and nephews to have the same education that i had, the same schooling that my parents had before them,and their parents before them.
I want my children and nieces and nephews to have the same education that i had, the same schooling that my parents had before them,and their parents before them.
Do you really want the same education that your grandparents had? If you're over thirty, I expect your grandparents left school at the age of 15 and I doubt that they were taught much more than to learn things rote fashion, which as any teacher (or any pupil, for that matter) will tell you is no education at all. You did not learn what your parents learned in school and neither did they learn what their parents learned in school. Knowledge is forever changing, educational thinking about the practice and purpose of schooling is forever changing, too and thank whoever your god is for that. Government policy and interference for politically expedient or ideological purposes will also have shaped what you and your parents and grandparents learned in school. You understand nothing about the history purpose of education.
The Guardianista have a vice like grip on Education policy and The National Curriculum in general, and have done for the last decade.I'm not surprised it meets with your approval. 
In the words of the poet - Fuck off klf
QUOTE(the klf @ Jan 5 2006, 02:27 PM)
The Guardianista have a vice like grip on Education policy and The National Curriculum in general, and have done for the last decade.I'm not surprised it meets with your approval.
and the Queen and George Bush are lizard like aliens © David Icke
Just back from work, sorry...
One specific question to KLF: when was the last time you were inside a school, during the academic day?
My guess is that it was when you were a pupil. I'm open to contradiction.
One specific question to KLF: when was the last time you were inside a school, during the academic day?
My guess is that it was when you were a pupil. I'm open to contradiction.
Pete.Out of all the teachers that you know.What percentage do you think are NOT Left-wing in either ideology or the way they vote.
You're right,i havn't had many chances to study the acedemic day,but i know plenty of teachers, governers,parents and more importantly,plenty of kids who DO know what its like inside a school today.
You're right,i havn't had many chances to study the acedemic day,but i know plenty of teachers, governers,parents and more importantly,plenty of kids who DO know what its like inside a school today.
QUOTE
You're right,i havn't had many chances to study the acedemic day,but i know plenty of teachers, governers,parents and more importantly,plenty of kids who DO know what its like inside a school today.
Yep, and that's the usual bullshit which Murdoch sells his papers with.As I asked before: One specific question to KLF: when was the last time you were inside a school, during the academic day? My guess is that it was when you were a pupil. I'm open to contradiction
Dear me 
How to completly ignore a response.
Firstly what has murdoch got to do with MY experiences of speaking to people who have interests in/work in/ or attend todays schools. Likewise,i hope you don't base your experience on the bullsh*t that The Guardian peddle?
Secondly,i said i havn't had many chances to study the acedemic day.This is a direct response to your question.If you want me to be more specific,then i have attended schools whilst lessons were in progress on two occasions since i myself left school,the last time about 3 years ago.
Now if you'll do me the honour of answering MY question.Thanks.
How to completly ignore a response.
Firstly what has murdoch got to do with MY experiences of speaking to people who have interests in/work in/ or attend todays schools. Likewise,i hope you don't base your experience on the bullsh*t that The Guardian peddle?
Secondly,i said i havn't had many chances to study the acedemic day.This is a direct response to your question.If you want me to be more specific,then i have attended schools whilst lessons were in progress on two occasions since i myself left school,the last time about 3 years ago.
Now if you'll do me the honour of answering MY question.Thanks.
QUOTE
i have attended schools whilst lessons were in progress on two occasions since i myself left school,the last time about 3 years ago
Say no more. Move over, Ruth Kelly.
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