Sorry Rob.I said British football and i meant it. British football, be it Scotitsh or Welsh has the same characteristics that is uniquely British and is not to be found anywhere else in the football world. And as i have close ties with a scottish premiership club,you are totally wrong on this issue.



You can call or concider yourself anything you want.Someone from Bow East London may concider themselves mainly a Cockney,over being a Londoner, or English ,or British.It doesn't mean that they are not any of those other things.


I thought the whole modern Leftist movement in this country was based on exactally the opposite of that statement. Nice to see a hardliner making that statement, even if it was a bit veiled with the adding of 'even'.


There's the good old food arguement again.


we all enoy things that originate from around the world.The question was, what do we like about our country and and what makes us feel attached to it.
By the way,African jazz?? Ancient Greek drama?? Roman poetry??




Ah. so i'm glad you're admitting that Britains borders are 'natural boundries'.You rightly surmise that island shores are more natural boundries for a country than man made borders drawn up on maps by man.


There goes the food arguement again.Funnily enough,i found plenty of Indian, Italian ,and chinese restaurants 20 years ago in Britain when inward migrantion was still at a reasonable level.And suprisingly enough you could also buy food from all around the world in the supermarkets 20 years ago as well.Nice to see the little dig at the empire at the end,just in case we'd forgotten what angle your coming at this question from.

Don't try to patronise me. Geographical accident??? Can people not proud to be Native American, Aborigine,Irish,or proud to be black..etc. because they are all only those thngs because of ''geographical accident'.


Past politics and infighting in the distant past as to when this island that we both live on was called Britain or Great Britain is meaningless and again you are placing man made political manovering, over natural landmass.

for the record.

i have never used the word proud (or pride) in relation to any geographical region.

i don't favour denmark over england except sussex is more verdant than fyn in august. i like verdant.

also, since i haven't afforded to spend much time in denmark since i was very young, it still has the mystical childhood holidays feel for me. And it is more hyggelig at christmas.

scandinavian design which was exceptional when i was young in the uk is now commonplace over here.

the danes, possibly because they come from a small place and speak a funny language are probably more conscious of being a bit different out in the wide world so perhaps that is where i get that slight sense of exotic from. and the porn of course which mostly came from england apparantly

i am also very fond of portugal. and holland.

i hate cricket. have no feelings whatsoever about football, love warm beer and hate the mere thought of jellied eels. But i wouldn't touch pickled bloddy herrings either!

so at what cut off point do your ancestors have to be born on the natural landmass that is england wales and parts of scotland (but not the isle of wight or isle of man presumably) ..
to be able to call themselves non immigrant british.

do i give a fuck

What a load of crock. There's nothing typical british about british football. Take the players of an average premier league team, what's british about that? And the game they play? Kick and rush went out a long time ago, or haven't you noticed...
I played the BBC fantasy football league for one season and had no problem filling my team with dutch players...

And to really clinch it:


CHELSEA!

Don't you just love her?

Yes the premiership has to many foriegn players (you can thank your beloved EU and its regulations for that) but British born players still outnumber any other country in the premiership.Anyway it the fans at the game that make the unique atmosphere,and demand a style of play that is typically British.

2 million Britains play football every week in the season.Be it park football ,non -league or professional,and believe me Leontien ,it is uniquely British and uniquely special.Britains invented the best language in the world and the best game in the world.Accept it.

Printing that picture is a stereotypical,biased,generaling,slur on football in this country and the vast majority of decent people who take part and watch.

What would your reaction have been if i had put up a picture of someone being mugged in response to someone mentioning a certain section of society? You would have said it was offensive,bigoted,unrepresentative of the vast majority..etc..etc.and you would have been quite right.

To produce that picture in response to this discussion is out of order.

crunchy with the smoothy

besides

http://www.footballnetwork.org/dev/history...all/history.asp

yes, but who invented football hooliganism?

you've got a point there nevs.

it's ok. wikipedia knows all...

i've done a bit of research and as far as i can see, all that 'britains' have invented is model toys. (and before anybody can say i am off topic i will just point out that they originated in birmingham!

it's a small world.

on the other hand, my lot have been around these parts for quite a while.



all the English received him as full king

but fair's fair

i reckon the rot started in c.515 - Death of Aelle. Kingdom of Sussex passed to his son, Cissa and his descendents, but over time, diminished into insignificance.

bloddy britons!

Beryl, sorry to have to agree with KLF but if he had put up a pictrue of a rioter of non British origin you would have been, rightfully, anoyed. This picture is an afront to sensible football fans who have ALWAYS been in the majority. If you have to decend to this depth you are no better then him ....... and as for cricket you are wrong.

As for the average English premiership football team. They are mainly non British because of Mr Murdoch who puts lots of money in so they can afford to buy the best available. They can play due to European law which says that you can't stop another EU person playing in your team. Go down to the lower leagues and you'll find mainly British (e.g. English, Scotish, Welsh and Irish) players.

I'm heavily into cricket & we have loads of South African players in England due to a Mr Kolpak & European law. Kolpak was a Slovakian handball player who wasn't allowed to play in Germany but got the law amended because Slovakia had a trade agreement with the EU. Now a person from any country who has a trade agreement with the EU (e.g. S. Africa) can play for a team as a 'home' player. It's far easier for a cricket team to employ a 'Kolpak' who's played in S.Africa than to bring through a young lad who may not make it

Football is a game of antiquity, known to many peoples. The ancient Greeks played a form of football known as harpaston, and the Romans played a similar game, harpastum. In medieval times a form of football known as calcio flourished in Italy. Natives of Polynesia are known to have played a variety of the game with a football made of bamboo fibers, and the Inuit played a form of football with a leather ball filled with moss.

Most modern versions of football, however, originated in England, where a form of the game was known in the 12th century. In subsequent centuries football became so popular that various English monarchs, including Edward II and Henry VI, forbade the game on the theory that it took interest away from the military sport of archery. Nevertheless, football grew steadily in popularity. At the beginning of the 19th century several types of the game—all permitting players to kick the ball but not carry it—were being played at various English schools, including Eton, Harrow, and Rugby.

Are you being ironic, Beryl.If i'm finding it hard to spot,leftintheUS will have no chance.



John Logic Baird - Television

Charles Babbage - Computer

Frank Whittle - Jet Engine

John Fleming - Vacuum diode/ Radio

William dickinson - Movie Camera

Charles Wheatstone - Microphone

William Friese-Greene - Cinamatography


There are literally hundreds more.You'll find that only the USA can boast more inventors than Britain.Now what did the Danes invent again???

The term Hooligan was actually derived from an Irish fellow called Holigan ,who was apparently a renowed p*sshead and trouble maker in his local community at the turn of the century.If someone was causing trouble, the locals would say 'He a bloody Holigon,that man'. This was later extended to the word hooligan.

For a moment I thought "How incredibly patronising" until I realised that as it was said by The Man In The Street then it must be a Fact

Britain did invent one thing that has affected everyone on earth .... railways. Railways are also why football (soccer to the yanks) is world wide. British engineers (& navy's) built railways all over the world. The workers played football when not working & the locals joined in. This was especially true in Europe & South America which is why these continents are now football hotbeds. The American's built their own railways & so missed out on what must be the 'world game'. (There are more countires affiliated to FIFA than the United Nations !!)

Cricket & rugby were 'upper class' games & so only tended to be played in what used to be 'the empire'.

Railways did have one terrible effect on history. The First World War western front was a hell hole because railways could get armies, guns etc the front but once the men got there they still had to fight on foot.

This post is about cake. My how I love cake.

Ever heard of Hans Christian Andersen, Piet Hein, Søren Kirkegaard, Neils Bohr, Tycho Brahe, Karen Blixen, wind turbines, Brint energy (which may well be the alternative to fossil fuels)? Just a few of the things that Denmark has contributed to the world.

And you accused BarmyRob of being patronising?


Ohhh dear me. I guess it's impossible to explain WHAT is so british about enthousiastic fans, except for the fact that they probably are british Unique atmosphere? Even seen italian or spanish footbal stadiums? or is that too exubarant for you?

The Dutch football association has 1 million members, that's one in 15 people in the Netherlands.



Guess what, I agree with you, the British did indeed invent the game, or at least the rules by which it is now played all over the world. We thank the Brits for that, it's a worthwhile contribution (not being cynical here, I really value footbal)

But there's nothing typical british about the game, there's no orderly cue, except the tea at half time (at least we had tea at half time too, maybe the french half half a bottle of claret)


But you did not invent English, silly. Nobody sat down and invented your language, it evolved. It has strong ties to other north european languages. Reason I learned it quite easily is because it's very close to Dutch. It's a great language, and indeed has become somewhat of a world standard which is really useful, but there's no need to boast about that.

African Jazz - never heard of Miriam Makeba?

Ancient Greek Drama - you know Sophocles, Euripides, Aeschylus. Never heard of the Oresteia. England would never have produced Shakespeare (and yes he was English not British - no Britain in the 16th century) if it wasn't for the Greeks inventing Theatre.

Roman Poetry - Ovid's Metamorphoses - more beutiful poetry you will never find..

Catullus - "Odi et amo. quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?
nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - beautiful.



Bollocks. And it may have escaped your notice but Scottish teams do not play English teams because they have two seperate Football Associations and Leagues - they are completely separate and only occasionally meet in European competition.

Which was the point you ignore - there is no British team - there is an English team. ENGLAND. Have you not noticed the flag of St George (Half Cappadocian, Half Palestinian btw) being waved at matches?

Britain is a political construct and it is falling apart; we already have a Welsh Assembly and Scottish parliament and I for one wholly support the creation of an English Parliament, and while we are at it giving N Ireland back to the Republic.

As for Britains inventing the best language in the world I'm afraid i can't stop pissing myself

Do you mean English perchance? Language isn't invented - I guess you weren't paying attention that day in school - it evolves... Herewith lesson you missed courtesy of wikipedia.

"English is a West Germanic language that originated from languages brought to Britain during the first half of the first millennium by Germanic settlers from various parts of north-west Germany. The original Germanic language was subsequently influenced by two successive waves of invasion. The first was by speakers of languages in the Scandinavian branch of the Germanic family, who colonised parts of Britain in the eighth and ninth centuries. The second wave was of the Normans in the 11th century, who spoke a variety of French. These two invasions caused English to become highly 'creolised'; creolisation arises from the cohabitation of speakers of different languages, who develop a hybrid tongue for basic communication. Cohabitation with the Scandinavians resulted in a significant grammatical simplification and lexical enrichment of the Anglo-Friesian core of English; the later Norman occupation led to the grafting onto that Germanic core a more elaborate layer of words from the Romance branch of European languages; this new layer entered English through use in the courts and government. Thus, English developed into a 'borrowing' language of considerable suppleness and huge vocabulary."

"The English language belongs to the western sub-branch of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European family of languages. The closest living relative of English is Scots (Lallans), a West Germanic language spoken mostly in Scotland and parts of Northern Ireland. Like English, Scots is a direct descendant of Old English, also known as Anglo-Saxon.
After Scots, the next closest relatives are Frisian—spoken in the Netherlands and Germany—and Low Saxon, spoken primarily in northern Germany. Other less closely related living languages include Dutch, Afrikaans, German and the Scandinavian languages. Many French words are also intelligible to an English speaker (pronunciations are not always identical, of course), because English absorbed a tremendous amount of vocabulary from French, via the Norman language after the Norman conquest and directly from French in further centuries; as a result, a substantial share of English vocabulary is quite close to the French, with some minor spelling differences (word endings, use of old French spellings, etc.), as well as occasional differences in meaning."

Sorry, but I have to… it's a compulsion. Philo T Farnsworth has a strong argument for being the inventor of television. And he has a magnificent name.

We've had this discussion on here before. I think every country contributed magnificent discoveries. But I always think it's funny that most countries (including – perhaps especially? – the US and the UK) think they invented everything. Once in a one-upmanship battle with a British friend (who claimed that the British invented computers, which, you must forgive me, is such bullshit – EVERYBODY invented computers. I believe the ancient Greeks started it with the abacus thousands of years ago), the debate became quite heated and ended when he, slamming down his pint and pointing at me triumphantly announced, 'We invented time!'

At which point I, four pints to the wind, had to concede defeat.

this belongs in thread of it's own - will create (if it doesn't already exist)

britains invented fuck all apart from model toys.

it is a made up word.

britain can't invent anything. its a land mass, silly

on the other hand...

britons invented quite a few things and we have thrashed it all out before about babbage.



the picture of the white hooligan was originally posted here, as you know, to counteract the premise set at the beginnning of this thread, by klf, that rioting is an asian black thing.


violence is, sadly, universal.


nb: the percentage of asian people rioting is probably smaller than the percentage of football fans rioting .. i have no idea... either way it isn't representative of all of them.


i used it again in response to klf's premise that 'england' invented football. It was shorthand to say 'we' also invented football hooliganism.


that may of course not be a fact i'll go and study the posts on the subject

i have now read all the posts above and concude that ... hooliganism is not an english word ... but hooliganism of the football variety has english origins...

Funnily enough ,NO.

And modern music would not have evolved as quickly if it wasn't for the Gramaphone and acetate recordings.That doesn't mean have to listen to a Gramaphone, in order to appreciate modern music.I presume you enjoy modern translated versions of Greek drama,because if it was translated into 16th century English it would be less comprehensable than Shakesphere .

Just googled him.Not bad,but poetry from that long ago must be classed as 'impressionist,' because you are getting a flavour, a hint,a rythmn and atmosphere of what the writer is are saying rather than understanding everything they are writing about or completely understanding the actual text.

beautiful? If you've fluent in Latin,maybe,but as most of us arn't ,we'll have to take your word for that.


and the non-league team i support only play in a regional Southern league.As oppossed to a the Nothern league,or Essex league..etc. ALL football is regionalised.It doesn't mean that teams from the Southern league ,for example, arn't still English, and British.




Failed aruement. In the olympics there is a Great Britain team,NOT English, Scottish,Welsh teams.The FA maintains the seperate countries to make sure the maximum number of British players possible can compete at the highest level.A british team would mean only 22 players can qualify for the world cup.Keep the countries seperate and it is 88.Anyway,the FA are seriously concidering having a Geart Britain team for the London olympics in 2012. They are at present clarifying with FIFA that the inclusion of a British football team in the games, will not mean added pressure from FIFA for a British side in the future,Apparently FIFA are keen ,in order to free up qualifying space.The FA are committed that the four nations should remain seperate as far as football is concerned.The last England game i went to their were plenty of Union Jacks around the ground,but as the team were specifically representing the area of Britain called England, of course their were many St George crosses as well.

The scottish and Welsh parliament have been exposed as vast money wasting white elephants.No one wants regional assemblies and parliament.sJust as Prescott and the people of the north east.We either ban Scottish and Welsh MPs and let those countries have their own governments,or we are working as one. You can have it both ways.How can you agree with the ever expanding EU,and at the same time agree with the fragmenting and breaking up of a much smaller union?

Yes the langauge we have today called 'English' ,took influences from other languages of course and evolved out of other languages, but modern ENGLISH as we know it, evolved , grew and was constructed on these shores.

OK, On these shores that we live, evolved the worlds greatest language.How that?

Thank you for that history lesson up the Norman invasion I am of course talking about modern language.Every culture borrowed and took influences and languges from each other.You start with West Germanic.If you go back before that, they no doubt were heavily influenced by another culture language.I'm talking about how modern Britains formed together all those influences and past tongues into the world biggest and best language.FACT!

"

Every country or region on earth is a made up word ( The USA is a made up word).Most borders around the world are made up by man.Countries names change over time.Parts of the world are devided up differently after wars.Who decided where England stops and Scotland starts.MAN.

All i'm saying is forget the political aspect of when Britain was called Britain or Great Britain.etc. I'm saying that this little island in the sea produces unique characteristics, be that through the populations outlook,attitudes, or even the unique whether.Things like that bind us,not regions and areas drawn on maps,through war.

[RANT]

Maybe it's me, but y'all have got a truly weird relationship with yourselves. It comes, I think, from a verbage issue. Saying Scotland, Wales and Northern Irelands are 'nations' raises the question: Then what is Great Britain? And, for that matter, what in the holy heck is the United Kingdom?? And what, exactly, are all of you?

I will put on my armour before I say the following. My friends, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are STATES in the nation of Great Britain. They have a great deal of autonomy, but then that's what states are – semi-autonomous regions of a nation. The fact that they have to be called nations to make a bunch of stroppy Scots and self-aggrandizing Welsh feel important is a fine example of kindness going too far. We all pretend they're nations that could survive out there in the big wide world on their own, being, as they are, about the size of Rhode Island and with no army, navy, sizeable tax base or recognizable gross domestic product – but they are not. It's like we're all on a train politely telling the crazy guy that, yes, you are actually the king of England. They're states, I tell you. England is a state. Britain is the nation. (BTW, drop the 'Great', it sounds like you're boasting. And there is little united about this Kingdom if you ask me which you didn't.)

[/Rant Over]

Just an economic union that’s passed its sell-by date?

Yes there is team GB in the Olympics, which just goes to show how mixed up we all are. A UK football team will be about as popular as a fart in an elevator. We shall see.

As for the FA maintaining separate countries this is fantasy in your head buddy. By the FA I assume you mean the English FA? Am I to understand the Scottish, Welsh and N Irish FA's all report to Lancaster Gate? Total and utter tosh.

And as for Union Jacks at England games, I see very few these days. Am also delighted to see Jerusalem sung by ENGLAND fans at the test this year. It is about time England had a National Anthem and William Blake get's my vote.



White Elephants. Says who? Says KLF - your opinion. Not shared by all, certainly not by most Welsh and Scots.

No-one does want regional assemblies - they are meaningless - an English Parliament is not meaningless it would actually represent a Nation!!!!!!

Why continue the British Union when we are part of the European Union now?

I have no problem with the nations agreeing to continue the British Union if so desired. But it has already been broken with Scotland whose parliament has been restituted whilst the English Parliament has not. If we want to agree on having common foreign and taxation policy then fine but really like the Monarchy Britain is simply out-of-date.



You are hilarious - you really are. You have some really strange ideas in your head. Did your mother drop you on your head when you were a baby?

Firstly your belief that English is the best language is just so unbelievably arrogant. Why. On what grounds - by which standards - please give examples. Is there a list somewhere of world's best languages? Or do you just think it is the best because it's all you understand so therefore it has to be number one?

Secondly you accept that English has evolved from lots of other languages and then you try and add a BUT. BUT Modern English is solely the creation of the British. They took all these inferior languages and improved it - is that what you are trying to say????? Are you saying that no foreign words were added to the English language since the 16th century? All those years of Empire, colonialisation, immigration and international trading have seen no foreign additions to the English Language?

This all comes from inside your head - it is all made up bollocks. English is a constantly evolving language - it is not dead and the myriad influences are not solely British.

My guess is you haven't travelled wide and far. If you never leave your island it's easy to assume it's unique.

The Nations have a mixture of autonomies - Scotland has a parliament which makes law but only has limited tax raising powers. Wales has an assembly which is responsible for running many Government Agencies but does not have law-making or tax raising ability. Northern Ireland has a currently suspended assembly which does have law-making but not tax raising ability. England has nothing - England has no autonomy it's laws are created by the British Parliament in Westminster by MP's from all the nations.

The Great is originally a geographical term - as in the largest - the British Isles are made up of Great Britain, Ireland and various small islands.

No, thats the European Union?

Should have clarified. ALL four FA's want to remain seperate in order to maintain the four qualifying places.

All four FA's want to remain separate because they represent different Nations...

I totally agree with that. I would of course prefure both Jeruselem and the national anthem sung.

Regarding Union Jacks. In club football the St Georges cross flags are flown even though the club are not reperesnting England in that particular game.

Thats what i said didn't i. Its not in any of their interests to join the countries to produce one team.

Mata you'd better be careful or you will have hoards of Scots & Welsh people chasing you. Both consider themsevles nationalities and get rather anoyed if you say otherwise. The nation is actually the United Kingdom & the land mass Great Britain but both get used indiscriminately.

Well that's where we disagree becasuse I refuse to sing or even stand for God Save The Queen. Except maybe the Sex Pistols version.

Yes St Georges flags are flown at club games. Where I ask? Answer at English clubs. You ever seen a St Georges at a Celtic-Rangers derby?

This is getting too easy. Drawing out the true feelings of the Left about their dislike for their own country and people. Its no challenge anymore.

Who else on here can honestly say that English is not the Best and most popular language in the world.Just as the US dollar is the univeral currency.English is the univeral language.

Yes, English had been influenced by other languages over the centuries, but English has influenced others languages the other way, probably a lot more.

Theres always Plenty of Union Jacks.

Actually the full title of the UK is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which it has been since 1927.

From 1800-1927 it was "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"

From 1707-1800 it was "The Kingdom of Great Britain"

Prior to that it just didn't exist although it's worth noting that Wales became officially part of the "Kingdom of England" in 1536.

That does surprise us.

Rob, the authority in charge of English Football is just called the Football Association as when it was thought up there wasn't any other FAs & the people in charge at the time couldn't imagine that anyone else would challange them. This mindset lasted for many years. None of the 'home' associations applied to join the World Cup until after WW2. When the European Cup was started in the early 1950's English teams were not allowed to join for a number of years.

As for a combined team I think you'll find that the Scots & Welsh are far more against it than the English. I happened to be in Edinburgh on the day of a Scotish international (they beat the might of Trinidad ... yes it was football not cricket). There were many Scots wearing 1977 tee shirts. 1977 was the game where Scotland beat England at Wembley.

Sorry but are both wrong. English is the most popular 2nd language .... but that's because it's spoken by the Americans not because of any inherant quality of it's own. The only real point in its favour is that English is the magpie of languages. Words are 'borrowed' from other languages without anyone anyone raising an eyebrow. The French have been trying to remove none French words for years (e.g. Le Weekend) whilst English just expands e.g. everyone knows what a Tamagoshi is.

What? Where have I said that I hate anyone, particulary becuse of where they are from???? I hate no-one because of who they are or where they are from - however they want to describe themselves.



Well it's a useful lingua franca, but so are French, Arabic and Spanish, but it is by no means universal - it's not even the most widely spoken language (I assume that's what you mean by popular) - Mandarin and Hindi are ahead.

By what measure is it the best - other than the anything British is better than everything else measure in your head!



Well yes languages influence each other - what is your point.

I know you won't provide proof for your assertion that English has influenced other languages more than they have influenced it so I won't even bother to ask.

Yes.More people in the world speak English (in total), than any other language. Chinese is the worlds most spoken 'mother tongue'.English second.

It's called being a republican.