In response I offer this, post number 18 of this thread which you may have missed, Mick H.



In the intervening months I've seen or heard nothing that gives me reason to change my view. In fact things have grown worse with further legislation being introduced to curtail civil liberties and freedom. The price that ordinary citizens, or rather subjects of her majesty the queen, are expected to pay for their freedom and democracy in this never-to-end, never-to-be-won, war on terror would seem to be their freedom and democracy.

Martin despite your over the top concerns about Britain being ruled by a load of Labour Nazis, the majority of people do not share your views, in fact apart from the few people who inhabit this board and some of the more extreme left wing groups you will find that the majority of people support ID cards, CCTV, strictor border controls etc.. The world changed on 9/11 and because of this measures need to be taken to protect the majority. The only people i see as having anything to worry about are the terrorists and the people out to do wrong generally.

Despite what many on here think, Britain is nowhere near a Nazi state, we are incredibly free, we tolerate those within our own communities who wish our society harm - we let them demonstrate against the very society that gives them so much freedom - cant see that being allowed in the middle east can you?

Britain is a free democracy and i suggest those who do not like the democracy we live in - whatever political colour rules - should go in search of a society that more suits there rather warped view on the world.

dont agree that the majority want id cards, quite the reverse

i would be happy to see foreigners and criminals forced to carry id, however for the rest of us i really think its a waste of money and will be met with mass resistance

however i agree with your sentiments that no sensible ideas for cutting down crime have come from this board other than the bleedin obvious stick em in the nick

labour IS out of control, they have eroded our freedoms in many multidimensional ways, from the "guilty until you prove yourself innocent" approach of the anti-car measures, through the letting thugs run around with more "rights" than the innocent public

we are not living in the free democracy you imagine, yes ok in extreme the people can fight back and stop the more ridiculous, however for large chunks of policy the main parties are pretty similar, most of the country is safe seats and elections are won or lost on a few marginals - giving the majority not in a marginal little electorial muscle, we have a system where labout LOST the election in England and yet is still in power supported only by Scotish and Welsh MP's

So its not a rosey as you are saying

But you are correct that the hyper left making up the majority of this board are not representative

We will have to agree to disagree on this one tinman.
This country is an extremely free country that allows people to demonstrate whatever there views. Other countries citizens can only dream of having that right.

yea i know its relatively free, for instance i can summons the police to court, and they have to turn up, and there is a fighting chance they will loose (tinman 1 thames valley police 0) which i guess you wouldnt get away with in many countries

but then we really shouldnt need to do stuff like this

and there are much more free places on the planet

theyll be asking us to tattoo our national insurance number on our arms soon, lets do it at birth, if youve done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear? bollocks

read 1984 again, see if it makes you think? see how clever george orwell was

but the main point of course is that labour and the hyper left on this board have no clue how to run a decent criminal justice system

Any Government would struggle to run a decent criminal justice system after all depending on your point of view it has to deal with either the Scum of the Earth or the most dissadvantaged people in society it will never look pretty.

But back in 97 Labour pledged to drastically cut the time from arrest to setencing of young offenders, this it achieved.

One of the reasons Labour was in opposition for 18 years was the public did not trust it on law and order. So now we have more police than under Michael Howard and more criminals locked up this is what the vast majorty of people on the sink estates of this country wanted and they got it. ASBO has entered the language and they are very popular. Labour coubcillor's up and down the country support them for giving a sence of hope back to some of our poorest communities.

It's after all the poor who are the victims of crime.

Tattoo's!!! Here we go again with hype and falsehood. No the Nazi's tattooed 12m in the camps and As far I am aware the only high profile political figure to have one is Dave Cameron's wife. But I'm willing to be wrong on that one.

asbo's are regarded as a joke by everyone i know

there is a big difference between a genuinely disadvataged person who deserves a chance being given a shit school to go to with few options to make it honestly in the world, but keeping his head up and trying his best to be a good person, and the frankly evil people from all sectors of society that the crim injustice system continuously lets run amock

remember it is only the magistrates themselves fighting back that is stopping non custodial sentences being the default recommendation for serious assault, the presure from the govt and political appointees is to use non custodial for very serious assault

most good coppers know the dozen people in their beat that would make a dramtic difference if they were off the streets, often repeatedly let back out after conviction after conviction

people who quote the labour line, abso's are working, the nhs is doing great, taxing the shit out of pensions is great, shafting the oil company shareholders (the pension funds again) is a great success, etc are badly badly out of tune with the real majority out there

scuse me but the people earning the money keeping this country going are routinely shafted and get fuck all back in return when they need it, but are still expected to pay for the permanent underclass which labout keeps down

how would you know if they were a foreigner or a criminal?

and why do you think its acceptable to treat a foreigner in the way that a criminal deserves.

i spent a lot of time 2 years ago visiting asylum seekers who had been locked up in Walton jail for no other reason than administrative convenience while detention centres were being built.

I'm afraid its the logical conclusion of viewing a foreigner as a de facto threat, and in the same league as someone who has engaged in criminality.

I'd urge you to reconsider your view on this. Its a sinister link to make I think.

Not wanting to badger you on it. Just asking for you to think about what I said and see where I'm coming from.

A foreigner and a criminal are not the same. By ensuring they are treated as if they are the same, you merely criminalise foreigners for not being British. Something I've seen with my own eyes.

Alun, you've made a fundamental mistake: you're trying to engage Tinman in a reasoned debate. You have to understand, in HIS world foreigners and criminals are one and the same. And as Alf Garnett said, "Brand 'em! Brand 'em all!"

don t agree

to be honest anyone found guilty of a serious offence id have their court id and date of conviction tatooed on them somewhere

dont think carrying id is criminalising someone, and its quite reasonable in my view for foreigners to be asked to carry id

As a foreigner, i would politely tell you to get fucked. There's absolutely no reason why i should be singled out as some sort of potential threat to this society, just because i wasn't born here.

Of course you think that tattooing someone with their previous offences is rational. That's because you are a nutjob.

my point is that the only people you demand to carry these things are criminals and foreigners. you seem to view them the same.

if you think that foreigners have to undergo the same stuff that criminals do, then thats criminalising in my book. its the same mentality that has seen labour respond to the so-called asylum 'problem' by locking people up - either in detention centres or in standard prisons.

plus how would your average racist copper know who the foreigners were to demand an ID off them. a license to stop and interrogate anyone who doesn't look 100% aryan, wouldn't you say?

Hear! Hear!!

As far as I'm concerned, socialists should demand the same rights for all people living here, no matter where they were born. I have far more in common with a worker born elsewhere than a British factory owner.

So why should we allow them to divide and rule us based on nationality, race and other such crap.

If it's got to the stage where foreigners and criminals are mentioned casually in the very same breath then too many of us are falling for their nasty, untruthful propaganda.

Well said Joanie!

Including the Irish?

especially the Irish!

This little piece would have sat well in the ID card thread or the I hate Bush thread quite well but this thread will do instead of starting another.

Martyn, that is absolutely chilling, and absolutely spot on.

ETA: i'm glad you didn't put it into the Bush thread - it's so easy for well-educated Brits to point fingers at the stupid "sheep" over in America and say "Christ, look at how apathetic they are! Look at what they're walking straight into!"

Fact is, it's all around us here in Britain, too...there are people on this very forum who would cheerfully hand over our fundamental freedoms (and particularly the freedoms of other people who don't happen to look like them) in a lovely big gift-wrapped parcel, if only it will make them feel a little safer behind their own locked doors.

Joanie.You are prepared to risk the lives of yourself, your FAMILY,and your fellow citizens of Britain,in order to maintain an unrealistic 'ideal' of a justice system.A system that was not designed to cope or deal with the current pressures of international terrorism.Thats fine, but don't ever try to convince us that a legal sytsem that favours suspected terrorists can also be benificial to the majority as a whole.

If you feel that it is worth the risk to let hundreds (maybe thousands of people) loose in this county to do us harm and to plot death and destruction amounst us,just in order to maintain an unrealistic 'ideal'.That is up to you. I just hope you don't have to bury a child killed through a terrorist atrocity,and then have to weigh up in your conscience whether it was worth the sacrifice of that child ,in order to maintain the sort of justice sytem that may be called 'moral',but could never be called one that actually offers (or delivers) real JUSTICE or protection to the population as a whole.

Did you actually read Martyn's quote, KLF? It's about just how easy it is to walk blindly into fascism, about how giving up all these little liberties (particularly on the behalf of others) adds up, in the end, NOT to safer society, but one in which we no longer have any control over the atrocities done in our name.

There will always be terrorism. You can give away every civil liberty you possess and, like it or not, there will STILL be terrorism. The idea that they're currently trying to sell us, that by giving up these freedoms you can suddenly be safe again, is bollocks, I'm afraid. It may give you an illusion of safety, but it's no more than that. And I'm afraid I refuse to gormlessly hand over hard-fought freedoms, not to mention criminalising foreigners (of which i happen to be one) so that some poor sods who have been whipped into a paranoid frenzy can sleep easier in their beds.

I will ignore the crassness of your question, and say that the real question is what kind of a society I want my child to inherit after I'm gone.

If he/she is still around to enjoy it.

I'm sorry,but you can't have your cake an eat it.You can't let terrroists plot and live amonst us,unable to be reigned in by our 'moral' and ideolistic justice system , AND THEN SAY that letting these people stay at libery to possibly plot and plan murder,is NOT putting the general public at more risk than they should be exposed too.It's naive in the extreme to believe than failing to deal with suspected terrorists will NOT put the public at more risk.To say,there will always be terrorism,so lets just go weak on dealing with them, in order to maintain a 'moral' legal system, is failing the public AND our children and future generations

This is not a court of JUSTICE son, this is a court of LAW.

How true!

klf, addressing terrorism in the terms you've outlind is just so short-sighted. You will not make people safer by giving away our civil liberties. You will not cure terrorism by giving away our civil liberties. Did Northern Ireland prove nothing?

The only way to cure terrorism is to look at what we are doing in the world to cause people to hate us SO much that they want to come here and kill us. To change how we behave in other countries. To look at which regimes we fund, and why that might make some people really, really angry at us.

There will always be lunatics in the world, and some of them will be foreign lunatics. Giving away our freedoms will NOT stop them doing appalling things - unless you want to operate a policy of evicting every foreign-born national (let's forget for a moment that the July 7 bombers werre all British nationals, and pretend that the foreigners are the bad guys).

If a lunatic wants to kill you, he'll probably find a way, no matter what civil liberties we've given up. The only way to at least contain such behaviour is to try to stop the single lunatic from becoming a terrorist leader, by giving his potential followers less reason to hate our culture and our society. Less reason to feel so desperately angry.

Very ideolistic.Lets change how we deal with foriegn policy,lets make the religious fundermentalists not want to kill us.How long will that take 20 Years ,50 years, 100 years, never??? If's-and-buts are not good enough.

People don't seem to realise, that as long as The West remains democratic,capatilist,and non-muslim.We will always be the target of religious terrorists.Its has increased in the last few decades just as much because of the internet generation,easier communication,easier travel,and easier access to weapons..etc.Just as much as it has because of foriegn policy.

Dreaming of a utopia where terroists would not want to target us, is just a cop-out.We must deal with what is happening now.Not what we dream should happen.

Take Abu Hamza. It is believed that thousand of deaths around the world have been caused or plotted by people that passed though his mosque in the last decade.How many lives have been wiped out ,because we were too weak and scared to deal with this man.It was only the intevention of the US legal system that ultimately led to him being arrested.If we had of waiting for our MORAL British justice system to act,we would still be waiting.Inaction cost lives.Don't try to convince yourself outherwise.By all means stick to your backing of the current staus quo and the 'moral' warmth it gives you, but don't for one second believe that the British public are not being put increased risk,because of it.

"This is where the party ends
I can't sit here listening to you
and your racist friends"

I swear I'm not going to give KLF any more attention to his dreadful right wing racist ideas. It makes me crazy and puts me off me lunch. ugh. goodbye KLF. I'm not even going to put you on ignore. You'll just be ignored.

Enjoy the curtailment of your civil liberties. You don't deserve them anyway.

Cant be arsed to read every single post in this thread but i get the general idea.

As far as im concerend i have no concern whatsoever for people rights if they have ideas that threaten the vast majority of the population.

Who attacked America first, im sick and tired of hearing that mantra of the left regarding the war on terrorism. THINK back to 2001 who attacked who first. What was the US supposed to do??? sit there and fucking take it. Leading up to 9/11 there had been other attacks on US bases and iterests around the world and ive heard very fucking little from the USA is to blame for everything brigade about those attacks.

People like barbara make me want to vomit quite frankly, she forever uses the word racist against any fucker who disagrees with her narrow minded view of the world.
Maybe barbara who seems to hate everything about her own country should consider moving to fucking bahgdad or some other country where she may feel more at home. Im sure she will enjoy the true freedom she so much wants and cant get at home in the US.

Yes the war on Iraq was a fuck up in many ways, but it cant be undone now, we have to deal with the problem the best we can, you can all moan on and on abouit the rights and wrongs but it will change fuck all.

Put simply the US and Britain want a democratic free country something i thought you lot would applaud, the only ones standing in the way of this are those who wish to have oppression and are against democracy, id like any of you laft wing fucking idiots to prove me wrong on that one. Oh yep im sure you will come out with some clap trap. Quite frankly i do wonder what planet some of you fucking inhabit on here at times.

Rant over - Q the abuse....

Lets guess, racist, wanker, cunt ..blah blah...saved you the time.

Thank god i woke up and live in the real world.

they are all fucking teachers or otherwise public servant overheads on society knowing fuck all about real life, like most blair babes

Does this mean you're vomiting right now? Excellent!

Your hatred of everyone and everything different from you is sad to read. Fortunately, people like the host of this board (remember? The reason we're supposed to be here?) are more interested in acting on our beliefs, instead of whining and moaning and supporting less freedom and less democracy. I've spent enough time with other forum members to know that most of them are informed and engaged. I don't agree with everybody here, far from it, but there's a big difference between talk and action. You should try it sometime. You might feel better.

Or maybe pick up a history book. There's "stuff" in it, things you could "learn". "Freedom" is more than an idea that elitists have. You should hustle your ass to one of the many countries in this world, perhaps China, who want to stick you in a mold and force you how to be. You want a strong master making you feel better? Go get one, leave the free countries to people who are willing to take a risk or two to get it. Or stay and bitch. That's your right, you see. We are fighting for your right to gas on an internet forum.

Tinman, I'm a production printer married to a retired auto worker. We know a bit abut the working class and real life so stick your insults up your ass. BTW, the teachers on here are dong the real important work in both of our countries. You might want to talk to a teacher. You could also use a bit of learning.

Have you created any fake forum members today?

tell you what babs, thats rich coming from one of the most hate filled people on this forum who is only too willing to spew her bile around and insult others who dont agree with you.

Well done however in your new found enlightenment on the fact that yes this is a forum and its a forum for open discussions some of which you may not agree with. Where did this come from babs, did it take mata and doublej to finaly get that through to you. Im glad youve had a turn of heart if this is the case and you will no longer go round like you own the site trying to bully people off it who you dont agree with. Seriously if this is the case then i applaud you for that.

Look again at some of your posts babs to see where the real hatred comes from. I can post some if you need reminding

Oh babs ive traveled and ive been very active, it was people like yourself who put me off the left though with there constant knocking of the very system that allows them freedom of speach.
Tell you what babs you could do a lot worse than live in the USA or Britain..FACT..For those of you who hate your countries so much simply leave and go find that eutopia you seek elsewhere, how about Korea or china perhaps.

15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi. Knowing that the US took no action against Saudi Arabia, you could say sat that Bush sat there and fucking took it like a salted pretzel rod.

Enjoy your curtailment of your right not to be blown up on public transport.Maybe you don't....?????? No i won't go there.


People like Barbara spout on about civil liberties,when really they are only concerned with civil liberties of individuals (even more so, if they are suspected terrorists, nonces, or criminals).They couldn't give a sh*t about the civil liberties and human rights of the general public as a whole.The 'majority' are of no concern to them.

Mata and DoubleJ. Hilarious.

Blather on, Leeds Steve or whoever you are. I've been here forever, I will stay. You might want to listen to some Billy Bragg some day. Have you ever heard of him? In the words of your countrymen, diamond geezer.

You've been trying to bully folks off this site from your first ignorant, pre-emptive attack/post. Pick up a mirror next time you call someone a bully. I've never told anybody not to post here and I won't. It's not my site. It's Billy Bragg's. Have you ever heard of him? Great guy, loves his country and loves freedom. You'd probably hate him.

How was the show, Zip?

The Saudi government did not sanction or condone the actions of those indivisuals,you muppet.How could they clamp down on them ,when most of the bombers spend most of their time in The West before the attacks.Should Bush attack us ,because the London 7/7 bombers were British??

How many of those Saudi bombers were free to enter and roam the US and Britain unchallenged in the years and months before their attacks,and as a result were able to carry out their plans? Thats what should be looked at.

He loves his country and his freedom.BUT the polices he condomes are slowlyknackering his county and his freedom.Priceless!

Fuck you.

You said "like", but I think you meant "with".

*nods* He does have trouble with pretzels. (Dubya, not Zippy. As far as I know.)

The second worst terrorist attack on US soild was committed by a army veteran. Applying your logic, would have us considering whether it is safe to have veterans roaming the streets of the US.

Oh my god, I can't believe I missed this:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/0.../bush.fainting/

I remember his dad barfing on the Japanese Prime Minister.

"You're either with us or against us in the fight against food."

Ignorant posts, bully Babs dear stop making out your some kind of saint and are not guilty of any of those things. You can choose to ignore others who have also labled you those things if you want (which you will cos the truth hurts).

Billy Bragg??? who....oh dear babs of course ive heard of the man and of course ive listened to him and a lot more as well but thats not for this forum.

Just because Bill has a voice in the media and is still mildly famous dont make him right, only fools follow people. To quote the late great John Lennon.."Dont look to the beatles or john and yoko to show you the way, dont look at me to do it for you, do it yourself".

Dont follow leaders watch the parking meters.

I stopped following false gods a long time ago babs, maybe you should try the same.


Now just one of your hate filled posts as an example for you..

"While senior citizens in New Orleans were drowning in their own beds, that vicious uncaring cunt was buying shoes. Cold hearted bitch."

And theres more if you want.

When you stop playing the saint babs ill stop giving you it back. Untill then we will just have to carry on this little game of yours.

okay Boss. I'll do what you say Boss. Yessir Boss!

Condi Rice is a cold uncaring cunt. I stand by my words. They are possibly the nicest ones I have ever used in relation to that piece of shit.

Quit telling people what to do Steve. I'm sure it doesn't work in your "life" and it won't work here.

In celebration of "free speach," I offer the following pearls of wisdom from some of our brave forum warriors:







Hear hear, courageous soldiers. Hear! Hear!

[*] Let it be forever noted that "Middle of the road" was indeed "one hard bitch," right up until being banned from this very forum. Kinda ironic, Leeds-steve, dontcha think?

What a lovely person you sound babs, bet your a laugh a minute to be with. What is it with you babs, what happened to you to turn you into such a hate filled bitter person.
You sound like one of those people who always see the cup half empty. Your life sounds like one big miserable moan. Do you go round with a permanent frown on your face??

Is there anything about the USA you actually like politically??

Why dont you go live elsewhere if its so bad?? you aint answered me that one yet babs. Tell me why im genuinly interested. Is it because yoiu realy know youve got it pretty good over there.

Your fighting an ideologiical war that has long since ended, you will never get your extreme Left wing utopia, you know that deep inside and are bitter knowing that you backed the wrong horse and like many on the extreme left will do everything they can to disrupt society at any oportunaty. You see them all the time the likes of the SWP, rent a mob, any chance to join a demo they are their hijacking the cause, stirring up trouble. You see its people like you who are the real enemy of the state, youd love to just be able to put against a wall all those who oppose your views, its clear from your hate filled posts against those with who you disagree. You would probably like to put yourself in the pacifist bracket, yet like a lot of pacifists fall down.

Its time for you and your extreme left friends to just realise that we democratically elected the governments we have, the people have spoken, why cant you just except that, the majority of people do not hold your views and never will.
It makes me laugh all the lefties in Britain moaning about a Labour Gov, what would you sooner have a Tory Gov ffs.

I offer this from the Miscarriages of JusticeUK (MOJUK) News Service,

[QUOTE]
================
Miscarriages of JusticeUK (MOJUK)
News Service
================

Prison writings - Brutalising Prisoners

By John Bowden for Prisoners Fightback

Evidence has been mounting for some time that prison officers operating regimes in the segregation/punishment units of the maximum-security dispersal jails such as Frankland, Full Sutton and Whitemoor, are systematically brutalising prisoners.

A recent police investigation of persistent racial assaults and abuse at Whitemoor indicate that the brutality is now endemic and systemic. Already a source close to Cambridgeshire police who are conducting the investigation, has told the Guardian that a "hard core of rogue officers" are responsible for the racist abuse of black [/QUOTE]prisoners at Whitemoor, which is all very reminiscent of official claims made after the exposure of staff brutality at Wormwood Scrubs when a numerically tiny group of staff were blamed and prosecuted. It emerged subsequently that in fact there had been widespread collusion amongst staff at all levels at the Scrubs, including prison doctors, and the attempted cover-up had probably extended into prison headquarters itself. Far from a "few bad apples" being responsible for the ill-treatment and in some cases torture of prisoners at the Scrubs the reality was the entire prison was involved in the conspiracy to weave a shroud of silence around what was being inflicted on prisoners at the jail.

The British Medical Council later said that the physical abuse of prisoners at the Scrubs could not have taken place were it not for the collusion of doctors who turned a blind eye to what was going on and covered up for violent prison staff. The latest police investigation into Whitemoor should be seen in the context of substantially increased staff brutality throughout the dispersal system and the vicious disempowerment of long term prisoners generally over the last 15 years or so especially.

The remarks of Brian Caton,General Secretary of the Prisoners Officers Association (POA), in response to the exposure of racist brutality at Whitemoor are almost laughable :" Our union has done more than any other to rid itself of racism. We have expelled members who's actions we discovered to be racially motivated. We don't want racists in the POA". The truth is that the POA has always had a disproportionate amount of racists and fascists in it's ranks and a sizeable presence of BNP and National Front Members.
It's extremely unlikely that the POA has ever willingly expelled racist prison officers or made any serious initiative to pursue an anti-racist policy and, on the contrary has always covered-up for and vigorously defended staff accused of unlawful behaviour by prisoners seeking legal justice.

The fact is that it's always been prisoners themselves who have highlighted and challenged the unlawful behaviour of prison staff, never the POA or anyone else involved in prisons in an official capacity etc.

It is the collusion and complicity of the POA, prison governors, doctors and chaplains etc. That enormously empowers the racists in uniform and allows them to operate with virtual impunity. The current investigation into racist abuse at Whitemoor will be hamstrung by two formidable factors: The entrenched hostility and reluctance to co-operate by prison staff, and the inevitable disinclination of an institutionally racist police force to uncover the real extent of the abuse. The prosecution of racist staff at Whitemoor is extremely unlikely and, as usual, it will be down to prisoners themselves to pursue their own legal actions and try to bring to public attention what the prison authorities have always tried desperately hard to keep hidden and unchallenged.

John Bowden
HMP Saughton

[/QUOTE]

Along with this from the BBC...

ID Card deadlock ends.

and proffer the following thoughts of my own.

It almost goes without saying that Leeds Steve or the KLF would be unlikely to shed even the tiniest tear for prisoners serving time for their crimes who are tortyred and abused. "If they can't do the time don't do the crime" would likely be a refrain to trip from their lips I don't doubt. I wonder how quickly attitudes toward our judicial system will change once ID cards are compulsory.
I would venture to suggest that every person aged 18 and over in the UK will live in fear, not of terrorism - the kind meted out by disaffected minorities from countries that have suffered at the thieving, malevolent hands of western capitalism - but from State terrorism meted out by the very people we pay to protect and serve our communities.

I wonder what penalties will be introduced when a minority of hard core refuseniks hold out and deliberately mutilate or destroy their cards?

How will they be treated in prison by the sort of men who believe that great Britain is only for white people?

Why should any law abiding subject of the queen expect that those leaving prison should feel any kind of obligation to tow the line and behave themselves having been brutalised instead of rehabilitated?

Once ID cards are mandatory and compulsory and, once it is realised that the system won't work unless people are compelled to carry them at all times the systematic bullying of hitherto even the most law abiding of people will become acceptable.

This country has been free for centuries. Since magna carta the people of the British Isles have enjoyed freedoms and liberties which have been and still are the envy of most other countries on the planet but I see it all ending under Blair and any subsequent government determined to press ahead with the ID card plans.

It cannot be right that the entire adult population is effectively imprisoned by the state without charge or trial on the dubious pretext of protecting us from identity theft and terrorist attack.

Parliament once stood up to a tyrant and cut off his head. Perhaps the revolution we have so studiously avoided for so long may be just around the corner. Or perhaps, now that almost all parliamentary opposition to this most disgusting outrageous diminution of our civil liberties has withered away, terrorism may find fertile ground in which to flourish amongst the British themselves.

How many years do you think you could stand hearing "ID Please" every time you wnated to go anywhere or do anything? And we all know it wouldn't be like all the other countries that have ID already. You absolutely KNOW for SURE that our coppers are going to enjoy every single nano second of every opportunity to hassle you for your ID and LOVE IT like all their Christmases have come at once when you say "Sorry officer, I've left it at home".

NEW Labour IS a tory government Steve. The present Tory leader is trying to make the Conservative party into a clone of New Labour in order to get elected.

I, for one, don't give a rat's ass what fake forum members think.

Well we will have to agree to disagree martyn. Do you think the tories would have introduced a minimum wage, banned hunting with hounds (I just wish they aint put as many loop holes in). Theyve increased NHS spending, Increased spending on schools the police, theyve brought in ASBOS something i know a lot on the left hate but are welcomed by communities blighted by thugs.
They have increased pensions, given free public transport to pensioners, signed up to reducing carbon gases, Introduced baby vouchers. the list goes on. All these are good policies and policies i doubt the tories would have introduced.
What the left must except is that your not gonna get a far left governement, the centre ground is where politics is right now and id sooner have a left of centre government in power than right of centre.

Martyn, why so negative? Those people have a roof over their heads.

Look Steve. I will only explain this once. The idea that I am a hate-filled negative person is HILARIOUS as anyone who has ever spent more than five minutes with me will testify. But I am a tax-paying american citizen and I will stand up till my legs fall off for what I believe in. The only advances that have ever been made in my country and yours occurred because people wouldn't take no for an answer.

From the current Utne Reader:

...Ours is a journey with two competing forces, one pushing democrayc forward, one impeding it.

In the eyes of our founders, only about a tenth of the population – white, male property owners – were fit for democracy. The rest of us can salute those who were willing to stand up against slavery, to march in the street to declare that even women can be trusted with the vote, and to sit in at lunch counters in Mississippi to secure civil rights for black Americans, and more recently, those who have fought to end second-class citizenship for gays and lesbians.

Each of thse movements declares that democracy is about inclusion – all of our voices...

by Frances Moore Lappé from the book Democracy's Edge.

or as Mick Jones said I ain't with the hundred here, I'm with the 99.

la lucha continua, with you or without you.

Martyn you paint a picture that is so far from what the reality will be like its unreal, we are not going to become some facist state like hitlers germany. Why will the police be rubbing there hands in glee, do you realy think they are gonna be waiting for this to come into force just so they can hassle innocent people All what you have said is designed to scare monger. Many european countries operate an ID card without all these horrific things you mention.

Youve got a hatred of the Police thats clear, i have no idea why maybe you got knicked once by an overzealous copper, who knows. The coppers i know are generally decent people doing a hard job with one hand tied behind there back due to the civil liberties people on there case all the time.

Having an ID card aint gonna make this country any less free, i get asked for ID all the time as it is, this freedom you elude to is a farce, you just cannot operate in todays society without ID anyway. Try open a bank account, try get a loan, try leaving the country, try pay a bill, etc.

And yep your bang on, i have no sympathy with prisoners generally, my sympathy is for the victims, i dont buy this liberal shit as weve been going down that route for 20 yrs and your liberal approach to justice has not worked, we have an increasingly violent and out of control youth who revel in taking the piss out the system.

Believe it or not babs i actually agreed with some of what you said.