i have started this thread because threads often get bogged down with what language is acceptable, not nice or downright offensive.

i have said many times i don't like girly bits being used as swear words.

go to go.. i'm at work...

When I am really angry, like after bashing thumb with hammer, hitting shin with shovel etc. I say, "Fuckin' Cunt" very loudly, and if in real pain or losing an argument or just feeling plain shitty will continue muttering, 'Fuckin' Cunt' for a long time ...

I always feel more than slightly silly after I calm down, and a little bit disappointed with myself ...

Don't think I ever heard my father swear, was told at a very young age by my mother that "people only swear because they are not articulate enough to say what they mean properly"

Right or wrong it stuck with me and I am regularly heard to exclaim "Corn in Egypt" (one of my grandfathers favourites) when inadvertanly bashing bits of myself on things.

Edit..........My fathers usual exclaimation was " By the Centre"

I don't really say cunt. Unless it is for something really, really bad. It's good to have one word that's so taboo that when you say it, people know you're serious. But I say pretty much everything else.

While I understand and respect the problem many women have with ladyparts words, I just can't get upset about them. Maybe it points to some fundamental flaw in my feminism (as does my propensity for ironing tea towels, no doubt) but it works for me.

Do I consider Paki or other racial slurs the equivalent? No, I guess I don't. And that's because when somebody says twat or cunt, they don't actually mean "vagina". The words themselves, for better or for worse, have become divorced from their etymology. Whereas nigger and paki are still specifically used to denegrate those groups, and to mean nothing else.

I'm sorry to the women whom I respect greatly, both here and elsewhere, who would disagree with me. But it's probably a confession of my own limitations as much as anything.

Another interesting phenomenon, though, is when PC terms, brought in to replace words that have become slurs, then become slurs in themselves. I've heard Daisy's friends shouting "Special Needs!" at each other - my generation would've said spaz or retard. I was once in a quiz where there was a team of teachers who named themselves Special Needs, too. There is no way around the fact that people will co-opt and twist language to suit their own agenda. It's part of the fundamental nature of language. And I think focusing too hard on the use of specific words can be a bit of a red herring at times - surely the content and context of the conversation are more important than the offending word itself.

That said, anyone who uses racist language in my house, or even my presence, will get twatted.

Scatolinguistics, who knew?

This song has been used before, but I have had occasion to use it again lately:

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend

I know politics bore you
but I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
and your racist friend


We all love language on this forum, which is one of the reasons I love coming here. We shouldn't be surprised that some people practice zero tolerance when it comes to misogynist language.


I've been using "challenged" but you know what? it all means the same thing.

Yup.

My Mom once let loose during a fight with her partner with "God-fucking" somethingorother. Made quite an impression on all present.

And on the rare occasions (outside my car) when I have used "cunt" (Last time was in the wake of a *majorly* incompetent financial fuck-up by a wretched unprofessional waste of space of a woman--rude, incompetent *and* condescending--at the university, that inspired me to call Mr. Roo and rant about the "God-fucking [thanks, Mom!], dicktarded cunt wad bitch.")

Mr. Roo was suitably impressed (or frightened) enough that he got home a little early bearing gifts and dinner fixin's.



Sadly, I don't think they entirely have, I think we've just gotten used to the associations. Think "How ballsy!" vs "What a pussy."

If cunt, pussy, etc. weren't *still* used to refer to female genetalia, I'd buy the whole divorced from their etymology thing, but they still are, so I don't.

I do find it troubling, though, that I reverted to the above slur. I feel ok about some concept of the divine, like sex, penises, my own parts, absorbent feminine hygiene products, dogs and was immensely fond of the kids I briefly worked with who had Down's Syndrome. Did I use those words in my fury because they were all culturally loaded to some extent? Because they physically feel good to say? Because on some level I buy into cunts and bitches etc. being bad things? Who knows. What would I have said if the original offender were a man? Dunno.

But I can't see that the routine, conversational use of "cunt" and similar words in a pejorative sense improves anything for anybody.

agreed; it's a question of whether you conversely believe that it makes things worse for anybody, or whether it's simply a matter of courtesy not to use such words in front of people who are offended by them.

As I say, I tend towards the latter, but am open to persuasion.

Funny, I was just going back to edit that in.

As I said, I don't think it helps, quite the opposite, and made the worse because it's frequently subtle and insidious.

But I do hope I remember to use "Corn of Egypt!" today should an appropriate circumstance arise.

This thread has made interesting reading ... and the scatolinguistics link is excellent ... but aquaman has been inspirational ... he may yet lead us out of our sea of darkness ...

I think some words need to be saved for really really bad moments. When somebody truly horrible has done something desperately nasty and you need a string of invective to save your sanity. I suppose cunt and cock should both largely be saved for moments like that. Otherwise we'll have no appropriate horrible thing to say that we never say so that our loved ones (or other drivers) will know just how pissed off we really are this time.

Mine (inexplicably, I have nothing against the act itself) is 'cocksucker'.

I have no idea why. But I only say it when I am incandescent with rage. And I don't care if the cocksucker in question is a man or a woman. I'm equal opportunity.

That link about Scatolinguistics was incredibly interesting and I have now added it to my favorites so that I can show a few people when they come online later. Thanks Roo!

Like most other people have said I reserve certain words for when I am extremly annoyed usually "wanker" and "fucknut" but I tend to use "cunt" as an affectionate term for someone e.g. "Haha, you cunt" but I have learned to curb it unless i'm in the company of my friends as they have become accustomed to me using it.

Just for the sake of stirring up argument, to those who see the point that using a word for female genetalia as an insult could be misogynistic, but feel it's alright to use it because they're not misogynistic, they don't use the word specifically to refer to women, and the word really is a great word: I would never dream of verbally abusing somebody with cerebral palsy and I think "spacko" is a brilliant sounding word for an insult, it is an inherantly funny combination of sounds. Would it be right for me to adopt this word as a general purpose insult, knowing its etymology?

This is where I run away and watch the fight

(ETA: note that this post is only aimed at those who used what looks like a dodgy argument, rather than those who use the word "cunt".)

I have brought this over from the "TURN ON THE NEWS" thread so as not to get myself arrested by the forum police.

You can find the post I'm quoting from in the thread metioned above: post 515.



Don't patronise me Maria, by making out like I'm suffering from some kind of self awareness deficiency. I am not a mysogynist full stop. My every working hour is spent with trying to help empower women.



I agree but frankly I think you're guilty over-intellectualising it, as is often the BB forum wont on far too many things.



A, If, for example, I call Nevski a miserable twat, or I call the entire Spurs back four a bunch of useless cunts, I just can't accept that that is in any way demeaning women. B, No I don't think there is a psychological effect on children.



Because they are bastards (not meant to demean those born out of wedlock by the way). Any man who would rape, or batter any woman is sick and it has absolutely naff all to do with swearing/use of euphamisms, in my opinion.



Of course nobody wants to live in a world where women get raped or beaten, but to suggest that swearing/use of euphamisms is in any way, partly or not, responsible is silly talk.

To infer that my choice of language somehow contributes to more women being raped and beaten is very offersive. There are many parts of our culture that demean women and, to a degree we still haven't fully shaken off the "women are the weaker sex" notion. I refuse to accept that people who punctuate emotional statements with words, which may be euphamisms for female genitalia, are perpetuating this myth.

If you really want to empower women, before you try and lay the blame on trite issues like swearing, start with the group of people who disempower women the most: Women themselves.

Cheers, Andy.

We have had several long ugly fights in this space about Eminem and the effect of his language on the culture. (Eminem and hip hop in general). Do you think the constant use of "bitch" is harmful? In a culture where women are valued for their butts and their vaginas and called "bitch" every other word?

I agree with you Andy, with reservations. But I have to go to work!

i started this thread at work so had to be brief in my opening post.

fwiw

I came round to thinking (in about 1992) that gender in language was relevant when i came across discrimination at work. I now think it is worth insisting that women aren't called ladies or manageresses for instance.

but when it comes to the use of bodyparts as insults it is much more personal than that!

i am particularly cross if someone who has enjoyed contact with my very nice bits then uses them to insult me In return i won't say prick or dickhead.


tosser and wankstain are my favourite words but i don't really condone them. They do imply a sort of sadness about masturbation


i don't know if it is a very english thing that swear words are associated with sex but in denmark (when i was learning the language) all the bad stuff was religious.

I suppose, like many others here, I find this topic fascinating - because I find language fascinating....

I have worked with/been friends with people over the years who's use of and attitude to language has made me smile...

One former colleague and ex-husband of a close friend swears more naturally than he breaths - he worked for me for a short time about 10 years ago and was the first person I encountered who used "cunt" so frequently that he needed to up the anti if someone irritated him - "cunting cunt" was then his curse of choice - if someone really annoyed him he tended towards the highly imaginative and scatalogical - always appalling, and normally highly amusing because of the sheer energy and inventiveness... another friend of mine (female) worked for me at the same time - she was ruder, more imaginative, and even more eye wateringly funny when she got going...

We had a 3rd colleague a slightly older woman who didn't swear at all. Reasonably enough she came to me to ask me to make them shut up at work (I tried. I failed) but her reasoning was astonishing - "I don't like cursing at all, but I'm prepared to put up with it from a man, if it means he won't hit his wife - but there's never an excuse for a lady to swear" (I was 25 at the time, I fear I failed to deal with this in the appropriate way for a manager.... )

At the other extreme, I had a good friend who was part of the same woman's group as me. Her MA was in linguistics and she was determined to "reclaim the use of the word cunt" - the trouble is, there just weren't that many occasions where she naturally found herself with an opportunity to use the word "correctly" in public.... so she had to resort to constructing opportunities - sadly for her loudly exclaiming in the supermarket/library etc., that she had "an itchy cunt" didn't really catch on with the local WI types...

For myself my language isn't so good - I don't agree that swearing necessarily shows a lack of imagination - sometimes the opposite - but I do make an effort not to swear if I know that people are offended - for me it's just common courtesy to try not to offend...

Like some others I almost never use the word "cunt" because I like something in reserve if I really mean it...

I would never ever use directly racist swear words - in fact oddly enough I can't even bring myself to type/say them - I am always shocked and offended if I hear it from someone else.

I'm not sure that any of this means anything - I guess my attitudes are a mixture of upbringing, regular exposure to language/attitude and belief...

But it sure makes an interesting and thought provoking debate...

I came here intending to say my piece in defence of my using words like cunt and twat etc.
But Itsmebarbara has floored me at the outset with an argument that I find difficult to challenge.
If I get angry at what I percieve to be the langauge of Racism, then I must accept that others get similarly annoyed at the language of misogyny.





And the worst thing is, she even used the lyrics of one of my favourite bands to illustrate her point.





Curse you Barbara and your clever words......



So, I'm not intending to change the way I speak just yet, but I'm open to persuasion.

Again, we disagree. I think it is a (perhaps tiny) part of a much larger problem, but still part of a problem nonetheless.

There are many degrees of unpleasantness/nastiness/abuse in the scope of human relationships. It's not like everything is either peachy wonderful or a regular violent, torturous rape scene. I think every little thing, every little use of language that demeans or somehow lessens *any* segment of society has a cumulative effect, however arguably small or large. (And by and large, no one is using "cunt" as a synonym for, say, "peach" as in "That's a real peach of a car you've got there!" meaning a particularly lovely, "sweet" example, so I take it it is being used as a negative, lessening term.)




So I'm curious. Do you (or anyone else) think calling Nevski (sorry Nevs ) a miserable twat might have a different meaning and some different baggage associated with it than calling your girlfriend the same?

Indeed. When I was little, my grandfather would periodically exclaim (usually meaning something along the lines of "When hell freezes over!") "In a hen's twat!" My (Irish) grandmother would usually yell his name and tell him to knock it off. "Twat" is not in common use in the US, and I thought, up until I spent some months in the UK in the late 80s that it was just some odd New England farm slang for cloacas (bird parts, male and female). And when I read/hear folks called a twat, I tend to just automatically "translate" it as "twit."

Or am I just a stupid fucking cunt?

I worked for a time for an almost saintly elder stateman. He would "never" swear, strict church-goer and treated all around him with the respect he expected to receive. Then he started swearing. The first time I heard him instruct someone to "stop frigging around" I thought I'd fallen asleep and misheard. Then he said it again... what to do I couldn't imagine telling him what he was doing so I photocopied a page from the dictionary, and highlighted



it came back out with a little tick in the corner. Never heard him swear again....

Well handled, SallyA!

I would say in this case, Barb, that I refer back to my original point of context. Calling Nevski a twat is not meant to imply anything except that he's being an idiot (for some reason, you have become the control specimen, Nevs ). Calling women bitches in the context of hip hop culture is definitely misogynistic and demeaning, as it is part of a whole campaign of denigration and objectification.

Maybe there's a flaw in my logic, but I see the two as seperate issues.

Would calling a black person a useless cunt (if they've done something to merit that ire) be better or worse than calling them a useless nigger?

twat

Frankly, I think men who say that language which abuses women doesn't matter is a bit like white people who say that they don't notice race--ie, they have the luxury of saying that because they can afford to ignore it.

If you are white, you can pretend race doesn't matter. If you are a man, you can pretend gender inequality and gender oppression doesn't matter. (You can also do this is you are a dim white person--everyone knows the idea of an Uncle Tom--or a deluded woman, of course, but you get my point, I think.) Women often say it doesn't matter, I think, because it is very difficult to come to terms with living in a world that for women is full of very many more challenges just by virture of their gender, not to mention increased risk of violence by virtue of their gender.

With respect, Andy, you might want to stop patronising me. I think as a woman I have perhaps more knowledge of how language like that affects me than you do. You don't have to agree with me in a political argument, but don't tell me I don't feel what I feel.

Rubbish. Who died and made you goddess?

I think that as a woman I have more knowledge about how language affects me than you do, Andy. And speaking for all women (if she can do it, I can do it, after all, I have a vagina too), I would like to say that it's perfectly fine with me if you use the word cunt as long as I can continue to use the word cock whenever I deem it necessary.

For those of you keeping score at home, it seems to me that the Forum fairer sex seem to be evenly split here, with cunt lovers slightly ahead of cunt haters.

Who volunteers to loan Maria their copy of the Vagina Monologues? Let's do a whip 'round.

Perhaps I'm deluded, perhaps I'm dim - but I actually think that the more offense I take of these words used in their decontextualised way, the more I empower the user.

Well, precisely, Joanie.

Vagina Monologues is all about taking back the words that describe us, and making them our own. If we use the word cunt, it loses any power over us. If only men use it, they own the word that describes us. Now, I love men, and I'm cool with them using that word, but they don't own that word. We can do whatever we want with it. Make it funny, make it stupid, make it sexy -- the word is ours if we use it.

I try not to use it too much, though, because it upsets old people.

Let's face it... Maria's talking bollocks and as a man I'm very offended that a representation of my genitalia are being abused in such a way.

FWIW i don't use the word cunt because I know some people are offended by it.

It's no big deal.

You're right, Mata. I have never called my Granny a cunt for that very reason.

HEY! I just remembered the heated debate I heard on Radio 4 the other day about this brilliant new wheelchair. Everybody loves it, it's a great product, produced by a company owned and run by disabled people.

It's called "The Spaz".


ETA: the disabled community were as split on this issue, for exactly the same reasons, as we are over "cunt". Some considered it denegrating, some empowering. Some said it didn't matter if it was called My Granny is a Cunt, so long as it made disabled people's lives easier.

I may have embellished that last bit slightly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/it...05_29_thu.shtml

i need the word that describes how i feel about going out to do the bins when it is cold and wet in bloddy july and i am in that want to go back to bed november mode

Does it start with a c...?

Sounds more like M....


You know....clouds, gloom, saps the will to live

morrissey

actually, i know jack shit about morrissey except what bill says


my swear word of the month which came to me on another thread is fuckin' fundamentalists!

this is not rascist as it takes inspiration from all fundamentalists ... especially the george dub variety

fuckin' fundamentals

help her out braggtopia...

ALBERR!!!!!!!!!

I'm really confused at this latest outburst Mata. Maria was only saying that she has more idea on how language affects her not womankind.
And you then agree with her.

And yet still you're attacking her about it.
Very confusing.

Dickie - how someone feels is not bollocks - you just have a difference of opnion, dismissing how anything affects others is worrying in the extreme.

As for my take on it... as many of you know (and have suffered the speech that goes with it) I too believe in reclaiming the cunt.
I hate the fact that a part of the female anatomy is still seen in this country as the nastiest, worst word you can say. Even the women on here say they only use it on *special* occasions when they're really angry.
For me, and I can only speak for me, this connotes that the female vagina is somehow this lowly. Its not the word I have a problem with (I'm a massive fan of Derek and Clive afterall) but what goes with it.
The mystery that shrouds it, I can remember how disappointed I was when I first heard this sacredly rude word. "Is that it? You can't shout that like you can "fuck"!"
I remember saying!

I have a strange reaction to it when others say it (though I say it frequently, why put extra importance on it?) and if I ever pull anyone up on it, as I did Lee at Tolpuddle, I usually say "I've got one, its my word"
In a way I see it in the same way as how the African Americans "took back" the word nigger and how the press dealt with that in Hollywood. When Spike Lee uses it, no one bashes an eyelid but when Quentin Tarantino did - they went mad and accused him of racism (the main scandal was over Jackie Brown I think) because he was a white director.

If I hear a man use it or any other swearing that could be seen as derogatory to women, I usually have less respect for them then I did, as in my mind it sounds like the have little respect for women.

I would just like to add that it is very unwise to use swear words in a foreign language. Dutch use 'f*ck' a lot, so often it is hardly considered a rude word. So if you here a Dutchman speak english and he tries to be friendly and familiar, he'll use that a lot, not realising it's more offensive in english.
Same goes for many other english swear words.

I use 'bugger' a lot, is that rude?

I also use the lord's name in vain a lot. This was normal where I grew up, but where I went to college there were quite a few fundamentals were really shocked by it. I learned to curb it a little...

I'm quite sensitive about words used to me in the workplace. Told my collegue I would bite of his balls off, if here ever dared to call me little mumsy again...
It helps to be clear.

i gave up bugger for a while when my mum asked me what it meant.

i do love it as a word and i do live near bognor which is famous for it!

i worry a bit about it being offensive though

and god save us from fuckin' fundamenals

Well, my Granny used to use it all the time, and in America it's become pretty much divorced from its meaning and is not swearing at all. So I say it a lot, too, as I can't be persuaded that it's a "proper swear". I used to say "Bloody bugger!" in front of V's grandparents quite a lot.

Leontien - how do you spell that lovely phrase you taught me? The one about Love Stick
I love saying that!

Bugger is that rude anymore, even my grandmother says it in polite company (you know it means sodomy though don't you?)

It's nice to see that your dislike of me hasn't interferred with your ability to substantively add to the discussion, Dickie.

I would never say I spoke for all women, all Americans, all second generation children of immigrants, all left handers, all social workers, all fans of cocoanut ice cream on sticky rice, or all of any group. I can say how things affect me and I can say that a hell of a lot of women I know and have known feel like I do or in similar ways about how language like this affects them. Not all of them do. I wouldn't expect them to. Margaret Thatcher was a woman, after all.

I also take exception to saying that women are more responsible for their own oppression than men are. That's bollocks. Are black people more responsible for their oppression than whites? And if you take a look at the statistics about how many women have been victims of sexual abuse in their lifetimes, the prevalence of date rape and spousal abuse, and the numbers of men who admit to forcing someone to have sex (though they rarely call it rape) you will see that it is disturbingly large. You can't run away from the problem by characterizing sexual abusers as monsters who have horns, live in caves and lurk in shadows. A woman is more likely to be abused by someone she knows than a stranger.

I just think this shows how deep mysogyny goes. To think we can divorce present day life from century upon century of incredible vile hatred from the church, society, the state, etc, and suddenly it's all gone--poof--is silly. Things change, of course, but something that ingrained doesn't suddenly disappear.

Oppression doesn't go away because we pretend it doesn't exist.

I think the idea of reclaiming a word is interesting. But I cannot buy that men using words like "cunt" to describe morons, imbeciles, and other worthless beings is reclaiming anything. We woudn't buy it if a white person went around calling people niggers then claiming they were "reclaiming the word" and didn't mean anything by it.

I think Americans don't know what it means and think it's a quaint British term like "telly" and "boot" for the trunk of a car. Like when my friend's mum (who came from Germany as a German-Jewish refugee in the 1930s) was taught to say "blast!" to sound tough to the British kids.

Actually, I think it was a relatively common word at one time in America, so my grandmother's generation would have used it without thinking about it. I was always "an itch" or a "little bugger" when I was being a nuisance (hence the idea of bugging someone?) There were lots of funny expressions she used that you never hear anymore.

Time for an off-topic/on-topic post:



The Hopi of North America have no past or future tenses in their language. Just imagine how complicated and confusing their universe must seem...



Anyway, I'll let you all get back to talking about vaginas...

I have a very strong feeling that use of bugger has a different etymology. Or is it entymology...