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Martyn
We've "done" SUVs elsewhere in different threads but I can't find where the last spat took place so I'm starting a new thread dedicated to slagging off SUV owners who have absolutely no need whatsoever to own one.

This from the Observer.

QUOTE
Urban gorilla
Mayor Ken's battle with 4x4s has been joined by fly-ticketing pedestrians and the green press. For, as Lucy Siegle reports, this is one WMD spoiling for war
Lucy Siegle
Sunday April 10 2005
The Observer


This week we begin with a multiple-choice question. If you were in grave danger of being part of the first generation to bequeath a planet in substantially worse shape than you inherited it, due, in part, to an unsustainable increase in climate-changing emissions, would you: a) try to consume less non-renewable resources, or cool.gif buy a huge gas-guzzling vehicle with emission rates four times those of a normal car?At first glance this question seems like a 'no-brainer' (just to be clear, the correct answer would be 'a'), which is why the SUV (Sports Utility Vehicle), or 4x4, has become a kind of poster boy for irresponsible consumption.And yet, according to recent data from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, sales of SUVs continue to do very nicely. The number of new registrations for 4x4s was up 12.8 per cent last year. Worldwide SUV sales total 4.5m a year, and worryingly, the automotive industry considers this to be a fledgling market.So what exactly is the appeal of a supersized vehicle that can only squeeze 12 miles from a gallon in urban traffic? As the 4x4's various pseudonyms - Chelsea Tractor, Montessori Wagon - suggest, it's not their ability to go off road. 'This is a car with doors that take the sill with them as they open, so trousers won't be muddied,' reads one glowing review. Hardly pitched at the traditionally outdoorsy type, then.In an insecure world it seems that the bigger the car, the more secure we feel. However, in the top 10 list of safest cars, there are no 4x4s. Meanwhile, their height and huge bonnets make them lethal to pedestrians. According to Ethical Consumer magazine, jaywalkers are two to three times more likely to die if hit by an SUV.As one of the founding members of environmental pressure group the Alliance Against 4x4s (www.stopurban4x4s.org.uk), Sian Berry has invested large amounts of time pondering their appeal. She also invests similar amounts of energy posting fake parking tickets on SUVs to raise awareness and lobbying, along with Greenpeace, for a £20 polluter-pays congestion charge for big cars. Furthermore, she wants to see the end of advertising promoting gas guzzlers as fashionable and aspirational; a recent study showed that one-fifth of drivers bought their 4x4 for style reasons.The Department of Transport's response, meanwhile, is a colour-coded labelling system (www.lowcvp.org.uk) for all cars. The scheme mirrors the energy efficiency tags we're used to seeing on fridges and washing machines, which rate an appliance's green credentials, running from light green (low emissions) through to the red zone - where 4x4s typically reside. But will this traffic light system stop the burgeoning SUV market? Hardly, say Berry and friends. 'People going to buy a 4x4 are aware of their environmental shortcomings before they get there. They can just remove the sticker in the showroom and drive off. It's hardly a deterrent,' says Berry, who is back to dishing out fake parking tickets.lucy.siegle@observer.co.uk

Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited


This in particular caught my eye.

QUOTE
a recent study showed that one-fifth of drivers bought their 4x4 for style reasons.


See! Not only selfish and irresponsible but liars too.

Look...One fifth need a 4x4 cus they're farmers or contractors. One fifth had the decency to admit to the reason they bought one. The rest?
I'd love to hear what pathetic reasons they gave other than the truth.
joaniecrumpet
My wee car - called Lenin, as though it's only 5 years old it looks like it's just rolled off a Soviet-era production line - is one in the eye for the SUVers round here. I hate those cars SO much! And I drive my little anti-fashion statement with pride.
dissident
I don't drive for ethical reasons: it's really, REALLY damaging to the planet.

I don't buy into the car and the attitude of 'the car maketh the man', as it's quite obviously bollocks. If you need a large chunk of mostly unrecyclable metal, glass, rubber, plastic and associated nasty chemicals to make you feel complete, then I suggest you find a good councillor and talk it through with them...

On many occassions I have found public transport quicker than the private car, certainly cheaper to maintain (when I don't use it it doesn't cost me anymore than the tax contributions I pay towards it anyway). Public transport allows you time to mediate on your journey, rather than having to concentrate just to survive until you reach your destination, tired and stressed out.

Petrol heads confuse me, especially when they start talking about their cars as living, breathing objects. They're not. They're inanimate, and belch foul fumes into the atmosphere. Nothing particulary charming about them.

SUV's are the logical extention of the fucked up thinking of the car worshipper. They should be like knives, if you haven't got a valid reason of having one, it should be a criminal offence to possess one. Without wishing to sound too much like a killjoy bastard, but that rule should be applied to cars in general, (especially those hairdresser cars that youngmen drive in a misguided belief that they make them look virile and manly. It makes them look like hairdressers, and that's why girls want to sleep with them, cheap haircuts...)

So, yes I fully support this thread, and the intention of slagging those narrow minded twats that believe that they have to drive a huge, thirsty, ugly Sports Utility Vehicle, with off road and four-by-four capabilities around town to look cool and/or to drop the kids off to school. They're stupid and pointless, and so are the cars!

*clears throat, straightens hair, gets over the early morning rant, and goes back to work*

[edited due to a few grammatical errors, sorry]
Leontien
Our country is too small and too full for SUVs. They can't be parked properly, they are pointless.
Roo
A criminal offense to possess *knives*?
dissident
I should have made that point a little clearer.

In the UK it is an offence under section 139, of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 to carry an article with a blade or sharp point in a public place. A folding pocket knife is not included, so long as the cutting edge is under three inches. Although there were two cases that involved knives under this size...

And if you are, 'without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon', you, 'shall be guilty of an offence.'

And I believe the same should apply to oversized and pointless motor vehicles (or all of them if I'm feeling really cobby about it). If you're caught driving and SUV an a built up urban area and you do not have areasonable excuse for having such a massive piece of crap, you, I believe, should loose your licence until you can grow up, and be forced to recycle as much as can be salvaged from the wreck you will be made to make of your SUV.

Legitimate reasons for having an SUV include:

1, I'm a Farmer/Farmeress and need it to rasse my crops of plants or livestock, tend my land.

2, I live miles from the nearest metaled road.

Reasons for instant disqualification from driving:

1, Like like the styling

2, It enhances my sence of connectedness to the environment by putting me in contact with the planet in an earthy way

3, I can identify with the plight of farmers as I drive the kids to school, I know how tough their lives must be

4, I need it to drive the kids to and from school

5, It's bling, blood

6, It makes me feel superior to the other road users (because basically I'm completely inadequate and need to hide in a big metal box to make me feel like one of the normal people)

7, any of the other lame arsed excuses SUV drivers come up with to justify their purchase of a metal monstrosity...
Jackeau
Although I agree about the SUV thing, I am very find of the Landrover 110 and the Lada Riva (talking of cars nicknamed Lenin), but more for their design and simplicity.

That moment of non-compliance with the cause out of the way I am amazed at the logic of the safety an elevated driving positions gives one. There are pockets of London where it is quickly becoming the norm to drive a 4x4 with no likelihood of any off road use ever. When 30% of drivers are also driving such vehicles and a few trades come into the area delivering in transits etc then in a slowish moving urban environment there is no long distance view afforded by being a half metre higher than someone in a car.

Recently I have been cycling to work but had to drive this morning when for the first time all the local schools were back after easter and I watched the cyclists on my cycle lane adjacent the road pull away at a huge rate of knots. Very disheartening.
Roo
QUOTE(dissident @ Apr 11 2005, 01:09 PM)
I should have made that point a little clearer.

In the UK it is an offence under section 139, of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 to carry an article with a blade or sharp point in a public place. A folding pocket knife is not included, so long as the cutting edge is under three inches.

*




Ah. I am rarely without my Spyderco, and was prepared to offer a number of reasons why, but I see I'd be covered.

Full agreement on your other points.

I have a Subaru Forester, which while all wheel drive, is considered by just about anyone in the US outside of Subaru marketing to be a station wagon/auto. I have livestock, many dogs, and drive on dirt roads through bad Vermont winters and Mud Season. My vehicle does the job, but in the last month alone, I've had three people tell me I need to get a proper truck (4x4 pick up). It would be handy, and if I needed to tow I'd have to get one, but my car does the job at a respectable (by US standards dry.gif) 26 miles per gallon.
Leontien
QUOTE
respectable (by US standards ) 26 miles per gallon

The answer to life the universe and everything: wait till the US gets european fuel prices wink.gif
Jackeau
Our gallons are 25% bigger though so that equates to 32.5 miles per gallon, not great but actually as good as lots of family cars on the road.
Jon
QUOTE(Leontien)
wait till the US gets european fuel prices


laugh.gif

There's been a plethera of whinging ozzies on the 'current affairs' shows, bellyaching at having to pay a few cents over the $, in one case $1.19 for a litre, and insisting that a reasonible price would be 75c.
From what I've witnessed at various gas stations, most of these whiners are all SUV owners.

As a comparison, can anyone give us the prices for where they live?
Leontien
from our always reliable shell
prices per: 12-04-2005 in EUROS PER LITER
(I have no idea about gallons, let alone different kinds of gallons, strictly metric)

Normal unleaded 95 1.325
Super unleaded 98 1.379
Diesel 0.999
Roo
CNN did a thing on international gas prices yesterday. The only one I remember was the Netherlands was the highest at $6.49 per gallon (at which price it would cost $300 to fill an SUV). I paid $2.13 per gallon last time I filled my tank).

I had no idea our gallons were smaller...
joaniecrumpet
I have no idea how much a litre of petrol costs, nor what the ratio of litres is to gallons. We never did metric. It was all the nuns could do to remember to teach us feet rather than cubits.

But it costs me about £25 to fill my tank at the moment, and that lasts me about a week. Is that good or bad? I haven't a clue.
Roo
Depends how far you drive, I suppose.

(Cubits! smile.gif )
joaniecrumpet
QUOTE(Roo @ Apr 12 2005, 04:07 PM)
Depends how far you drive, I suppose.

*



That should be in profoundest thoughts of the week. wink.gif
New Brunette
*Ahem* I trust all the people complaining about SUVs *never* travel in aeroplanes just for pleasure wink.gif

http://www.climnet.org/publicawareness/transport.html#com
Martyn
QUOTE
*Ahem* I trust all the people complaining about SUVs *never* travel in aeroplanes just for pleasure


You are absolutely spot on in trusting such a thing NB.

No pleasure is involved at all except perhaps from hearing the anouncement, "Please return to your seats and fasten safety belts, we're about to land"
It's done to get from one side of the world to the other in under a week.

10 hours with ones knees wedged up round ones ears is not pleasurable unless you are into sado-masochistic yoga or a porn star that enjoys his/her work.

A friend recently posited the hypothesis that SUVs and very large cars will continue to sell well so long as there is no curb on the number of vehicles on the road. His logic being that people (selfish fuckwits in my opinion) who spend increasingly lengthy periods stationary in jams decide to do so in increasingly more spacious and comfortable vehicles. Once the traffic flow eases and journey times shorten they will abandon their wheeled mansions and opt for small fuel efficient modes of transport because they'll not be in them very long.

dry.gif
itsmeBarbara
In this country, when gas hits $5 a gallon, that is when cars will shrink. Maybe.

We love big cars in the USA, that's all there is to it. Makes fuck all sense to me (said the Focus driver) but whateva.
jamesleo
[Barara: Don't you know big cars are compensation for small peckers.








Picture: Who is to decide what is beauty
joaniecrumpet
Right - who's put that fucking webcam in my bedroom again?!
New Brunette
QUOTE(Martyn @ Apr 17 2005, 07:00 PM)
QUOTE
*Ahem* I trust all the people complaining about SUVs *never* travel in aeroplanes just for pleasure


You are absolutely spot on in trusting such a thing NB.

No pleasure is involved at all except perhaps from hearing the anouncement, "Please return to your seats and fasten safety belts, we're about to land"
It's done to get from one side of the world to the other in under a week.

10 hours with ones knees wedged up round ones ears is not pleasurable unless you are into sado-masochistic yoga or a porn star that enjoys his/her work.


My point, (as you well know wink.gif ), was that it's not necessary to take a flight at all in most cases but people do because that is their 'choice' to do so yet nobody villifies them for making a 'choice' that damages the environment.

I can't remember who it was that said that it makes people feel superior to be 3 feet higher up than everybody else but has an SUV driver ever actually said that it makes them feel superior? Or is that something that's been pinned on them because that's how it makes other people feel and if that's the case, surely that's not the fault of the SUV driver that somebody else feels inferior by them driving the car of their choice?

I just think that hatred for the SUV drivers is really lazy. Everyone who doesn't drive one can point the finger at someone else and feel like they're actually doing their bit for the environment without actually doing anything at all, (despite the fact that they drive themselves, come from a two-car household or drive a diesel-guzzling truck for a living!) Throw in a bit of class-hatred too and it's got something for everyone!

Joannie survived without a car at all until very recently so presumably her 25 pounds per week fuel consumption, (up from zero), isn't essential, (and is actually more than mine), yet nobody bats an eyelid because she doesn't have the audacity to drive a large car and rub people's noses in it. How many of the people complaining about the cost of SUV drivers to the environment drive to work every day, (in whatever car)? I drive mine to the station and then take the train into town. I hope you're all doing that too... wink.gif
joaniecrumpet
QUOTE(New Brunette @ Apr 18 2005, 12:39 PM)
Joannie survived without a car at all until very recently so presumably her 25 pounds per week fuel consumption, (up from zero), isn't essential, (and is actually more than mine), yet nobody bats an eyelid because she doesn't have the audacity to drive a large car and rub people's noses in it. How many of the people complaining about the cost of SUV drivers to the environment drive to work every day, (in whatever car)? I drive mine to the station and then take the train into town. I hope you're all doing that too... wink.gif
*



I used to take the train, and to be in to work in time for early lectures it was the expensive train. So in terms of personal expenditure, I actually spend less on petrol than I used to spend on train fares.

My original plan was to drive to the station and get the train to work, mostly because I found the concept of driving to and in a large town frightening. But V helpfully pointed out that I'd be paying to keep a car on the road, plus the additional cost of £9 a day in train fares. It simply didn't make financial sense.

Is my fuel consumption essential? Well, people define essential in different ways. V used to have to ferry me everywhere before, as there's no direct public transport link to our village. He also had to do all the school runs, etc. That took up a lot of time when he was meant to be working. And we agreed that if I didn't get my licence, we'd have to move to town. So no, it wasn't essential if we were happy to move house, so that I could easily access public transport or be within walking distance of everywhere I needed to go, but I guess that would be true for pretty much everyone else, too, when you think about it. Driving is a convenience and a luxury which allows us more lifestyle choices, but just like anything else you can choose different ways in which to execute those choices, and some will always seem more responsible and considerate than others.

Of course the whole SUV thing isn't just about petrol. God knows the women who drive them round our way never go any further than the school and back, so they can't be using very much. I object to the fact that SUVs give an illusion of greater safety to the driver while reducing the safety of everyone around the car - which can be interpreted as kind of "sod you!" attitude - and the fact that I find them anti-social in the amount of space they use up in parking and on the road. Plus the fact that so many people who have them don't seem to know how to drive them. But that's okay - at least when they come crashing into me outside the school gates, it'll be my little tin can that gets squashed like a bug while they drive happily off to pilates... wink.gif


I've been thinking for some time about the whole issue of socially responsible international travel. It is, of course, a luxury rather than a necessity, but we could say that about lots of things in modern life. The question is, are there alternatives means of international travel which are less harmful? At present, the answer is no.
Martyn
I'm also annoyed by the use of SUVs, especially the Landcruiser, Freelander, Range Rover, Shogun type 4x4's, by people who can't drive.

I'm particularly incensed by those individuals who encounter what appears to be a flooded road in one of these vehicles.
It's perfectly true that they will not ford a river without mods to the air intake or the exhaust but they will, I promise you, go through 6 to 9 inches of water on a country lane. The owners, I won't call them drivers because despite having passed a 20 minute driving test they display all the motoring acumen of crash test dummies, the owners approach these puddles at less than walking pace and then try their utmost to drive on the side of the road that they believe will offer them the shallowest route. It doesn't matter that they're stopping people from the opposite direction. We are clearly unaware of how delicate these 4.2 litre all wheel drive vehicles with their dual use tyres are. We must keep well back as they negotiate the raging torrent ahead.

A quick look at the kerbside will indicate that the water is barely reaching the pavement. Which means that the depth must often be a whopping 5 inches!

And have you seen how wide a Taureg is? It WILL take up three parking spaces even if you get it exactly between the lines in a normal supermarket car parking space.
BTW if you have one just pray I don't park next to you because I love to exit through my hatchback just for the hell of it.
And just what exactly, please, somebody tell me, what the fuck is a Cayenne for?
Roo
QUOTE(New Brunette @ Apr 18 2005, 07:39 AM)
I can't remember who it was that said that it makes people feel superior to be 3 feet higher up than everybody else but has an SUV driver ever actually said that it makes them feel superior?


Yup. All those folks in the auto industry focus groups.

This book talks about the psychology behind the marketing. Lengthy interview with the author with NPR's Terry Gross here.
New Brunette
QUOTE(joaniecrumpet @ Apr 18 2005, 01:21 PM)
QUOTE(New Brunette @ Apr 18 2005, 12:39 PM)
Joannie survived without a car at all until very recently so presumably her 25 pounds per week fuel consumption, (up from zero), isn't essential, (and is actually more than mine), yet nobody bats an eyelid because she doesn't have the audacity to drive a large car and rub people's noses in it. How many of the people complaining about the cost of SUV drivers to the environment drive to work every day, (in whatever car)? I drive mine to the station and then take the train into town. I hope you're all doing that too... wink.gif
*



I used to take the train, and to be in to work in time for early lectures it was the expensive train. So in terms of personal expenditure, I actually spend less on petrol than I used to spend on train fares.

My original plan was to drive to the station and get the train to work, mostly because I found the concept of driving to and in a large town frightening. But V helpfully pointed out that I'd be paying to keep a car on the road, plus the additional cost of £9 a day in train fares. It simply didn't make financial sense.

Is my fuel consumption essential? Well, people define essential in different ways. V used to have to ferry me everywhere before, as there's no direct public transport link to our village. He also had to do all the school runs, etc. That took up a lot of time when he was meant to be working. And we agreed that if I didn't get my licence, we'd have to move to town. So no, it wasn't essential if we were happy to move house, so that I could easily access public transport or be within walking distance of everywhere I needed to go, but I guess that would be true for pretty much everyone else, too, when you think about it. Driving is a convenience and a luxury which allows us more lifestyle choices, but just like anything else you can choose different ways in which to execute those choices, and some will always seem more responsible and considerate than others.

Of course the whole SUV thing isn't just about petrol. God knows the women who drive them round our way never go any further than the school and back, so they can't be using very much. I object to the fact that SUVs give an illusion of greater safety to the driver while reducing the safety of everyone around the car - which can be interpreted as kind of "sod you!" attitude - and the fact that I find them anti-social in the amount of space they use up in parking and on the road. Plus the fact that so many people who have them don't seem to know how to drive them. But that's okay - at least when they come crashing into me outside the school gates, it'll be my little tin can that gets squashed like a bug while they drive happily off to pilates... wink.gif


I've been thinking for some time about the whole issue of socially responsible international travel. It is, of course, a luxury rather than a necessity, but we could say that about lots of things in modern life. The question is, are there alternatives means of international travel which are less harmful? At present, the answer is no.
*



Sorry Joannie, wasn't having a go at you in particular, we all make choices and shouldn't really feel the need to justify them, you were just a good example!

Incidentally there was a programme on BBC2 recently about how there are more fuel-efficient SUVs in the pipeline, I forgot to watch it unfortunately but will it make their opposers happy? I very much doubt it.
New Brunette
QUOTE(Martyn @ Apr 18 2005, 02:32 PM)
I'm also annoyed by the use of SUVs, especially the Landcruiser, Freelander, Range Rover, Shogun type 4x4's, by people who can't drive.

I'm particularly incensed by those individuals who encounter what appears to be a flooded road in one of these vehicles.
It's perfectly true that they will not ford a river without mods to the air intake or the exhaust but they will, I promise you, go through 6 to 9 inches of water on a country lane. The owners, I won't call them drivers because despite having passed a 20 minute driving test they display all the motoring acumen of crash test dummies, the owners approach these puddles at less than walking pace and then try their utmost to drive on the side of the road that they believe will offer them the shallowest route. It doesn't matter that they're stopping people from the opposite direction. We are clearly unaware of how delicate these 4.2 litre all wheel drive vehicles with their dual use tyres are. We must keep well back as they negotiate the raging torrent ahead.

A quick look at the kerbside will indicate that the water is barely reaching the pavement. Which means that the depth must often be a whopping 5 inches!

And have you seen how wide a Taureg is? It WILL take up three parking spaces even if you get it exactly between the lines in a normal supermarket car parking space.
BTW if you have one just pray I don't park next to you because I love to exit through my hatchback just for the hell of it.
And just what exactly, please, somebody tell me, what the fuck is a Cayenne for?
*



Ah, but sure there are idiots driving all types of cars. I'd be more terrified to see a teenager in a jacked-up Escort coming towards me than a mum on the school run. Usually people are complaining that SUV drivers drive too fast in adverse weather conditions because they feel falsely immune and how you can't move for SUVs lying on the roadside with their wheels in the air and now you're not happy because they're driving too slowly! We just can't win, can we? wink.gif
Sarah lady
As Martyn etc has stated - it isn't just the fuel efficiency that is the problem.

I have a much bigger problem with the way in which they are driven, the fact that if you or I are hit by an SUV you are more likely to die than you are if you are hit by a "normal" car and the fact they take up so much space on the road and in car parks.
When I wait for my bus in the morning (I don't know how to drive and don't intend to learn - I don't need to so, what would be the point?) I watch them go past and some of the newer ones are HUGE! I'm not talking your average LandRover thingy - I mean really really fucking huge.
I can't see how your average driving lessons/test can be enough to drive what is essentially a truck!
itsmeBarbara
My sister in law will give you a long and passionate speech about how she feels so much safer in her SUV. She gave me this speech on Saturday. She won't tell you that she has wrecked four different cars in her lifetime because she is a TERRIBLE driver and doesn't look where she's going - ever - and now she feels safer, way up high above the traffic, the rest of us should run when we see her coming down the road because now she has a million blind spots.

That is one of the top reasons people give for buying an SUV - they can see and they're safer. I've said it before and I'll say it again - nothing will replace actual driving skills.

Next week's complaint - my neighbors, their SUV's (a Humvee, a Land Rover, 2 Explorers and a Freestyle) and their total inability to park the damn things in a single spot.
Joe
I've just been watching a group of people drive thousands of brand new Toyota or Mitsubishi (or whatever they are) SUVs off a boat, while another group drive thousands of brand new vauxhalls on to the boat. It would be funny if it was harmless.

The only times I've been hit by cars have been by Ford Foci.

(I was taking artistic photos, I don't just hang around docks all the time, honest.)
Sarah lady
Hanging round docks for the "artistic merits" - whatever, Joe!!!
Jackeau
QUOTE(Roo @ Apr 12 2005, 03:57 PM)
CNN did a thing on international gas prices yesterday.  The only one I remember was the Netherlands was the highest at $6.49 per gallon (at which price it would cost $300 to fill an SUV).  I paid $2.13 per gallon last time I filled my tank).

I had no idea our gallons were smaller...
*



You have 16 fluid ounces in your pints and 8 of your pints in your gallon as I understand it. We have 20 fluid ounces in a pint and 8 pints in a gallon.

Todays rates on xe.com show a dollar being 1.3 euros and thus reports Leontien's gas at $6.26/english style gallon and our petrol costs about 7% less I think.

My car has a sixty litre (13 gallon) tank and would therefore cost $82 dollars to fill, was your maths wrong or do the SUVs you describe have unfeasibly large tanks? I don't recall having a significantly longer range per tank when driving rental cars in the US, albeit I was only renting standard size cars. Two seconds of research suggests the Ford 150 has an 80 litre tank.

Just to touch on the question of flights my sister in law, cabin crew, stated yesterday that there is pretty much a flight every hour to New York. Now I assume that is with the alliance that she flies under. That would give you with say 14 flights per day, each seating up to 400 people some 5,600 people. If 0.1% of our population needed to fly to the US each day then within three years the UK would be empty. They certainly acn't all be doing it for absolute need.
Roo
QUOTE(Jackeau @ Apr 18 2005, 12:27 PM)
was your maths wrong or do the SUVs you describe have unfeasibly large tanks?

*




It wasn't my math, it was CNN's, and they were not wrong. The 2006 Hummer H1 Alpha (for those alpha-male wannabees) ships with two on-board tanks with a combined capacity of 51.5 gallons.

Some models of Chevy Suburban have a 42 gallon tank.
Roo
QUOTE(Jackeau @ Apr 18 2005, 12:27 PM)
  If 0.1% of our population needed to fly to the US each day then within three years the UK would be empty.  They certainly acn't all be doing it for absolute need.
*



I should think a few of them return, and I hear that some New Yorkers occasionally visit... wink.gif
itsmeBarbara
And Detroiters!

Joe, my beloved little Fjord and I apologize for the bad behavior of rouge Focuses (Foci?). I have been in one accident in my life and it was when I was hit from behind while I sat at a red light. Not our fault!
joaniecrumpet
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Apr 18 2005, 04:32 PM)
When I wait for my bus in the morning (I don't know how to drive and don't intend to learn - I don't need to so, what would be the point?)


oh, Sarah. I got to age 37 in just that happy state!

QUOTE
I watch them go past and some of the newer ones are HUGE! I'm not talking your average LandRover thingy - I mean really really fucking huge.
*



I saw my first British HUM-V a couple of weeks ago - on Oakham high street. This is a tiny market town, for god's sake! It was ridiculous - like some Brobdingnagean nightmare taking up huge amounts of road. The small-dicked tosser - er, I mean driver - tried to pull over and park, but of course there's hardly enough room for even a normal car to pull over in the high street. I found myself in the happy position of being compelled in to stop right next to his car, effectively preventing him from getting out. Of course, I could have stopped a bit further back and allowed him enough space to open his door, but all I could think was, "you total wanker!" So just turned up my radio and sat there innocently looking away as he gesticulated furiously to get me to move.

It was very theraputic.
joaniecrumpet
HURRAH!!! D just pointed out that I'm a fuckin' saddo!!!!! And not a warner in sight.


Off to Braggx3...
Roo
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Apr 18 2005, 04:32 PM)
When I wait for my bus in the morning (I don't know how to drive and don't intend to learn - I don't need to so, what would be the point?)




Hmmmm. I didn't learn to drive until sort of late because I cycled everywhere and lived on a really busy, convenient arm of public transit. The same with the Forum's own Tanya.

*However*, Tanya and I were off the grid when I managed to break *and* dislocate three of my fingers (ouch!) and generally mess myself up in an accident (not auto). Nothing that qualified for an ambulance ride, so I had to drive to the hospital. It sure would have been nice if she'd had her driver's license.

She has it now, and might have a few words to say about driving being easier to learn earlier on smile.gif

I think skills of any sort are seldom a *bad* thing to have, and driving can come in mighty handy, even if you only do it (or *have* to do it) once every eight years or so.
Jackeau
QUOTE(Roo @ Apr 18 2005, 05:59 PM)
I should think a few of them return, and I hear that some New Yorkers occasionally visit...  wink.gif
*



yeah yeah yeah


QUOTE(joaniecrumpet @ Apr 18 2005, 07:41 PM)
I saw my first British HUM-V a couple of weeks ago - on Oakham high street. This is a tiny market town, for god's sake!
*



We have one near us, it appears to be owned by a local hotelier. His site is opposite the branch of Tesco yet I have seen it parked there too. From his door to that of the supermarket is perhaps 150 metres tops. I hope he was parked there to allow space for an extra resident. It's a hateful thing to see on our roads which are 1900-1930s layouts and well suited to every house owning an AustinA35.
geoff
QUOTE(New Brunette @ Apr 18 2005, 10:39 PM)
My point, (as you well know wink.gif ), was that it's not necessary to take a flight at all in most cases but people do because that is their 'choice' to do so yet nobody villifies them for making a 'choice' that damages the environment.

An aeroplane flight is really the only practical way to get anywhere from here. huh.gif
Jackeau
But I think the issue of choice NB refers to is whether you need to go anyplace else at all.
Sarah lady
QUOTE(joaniecrumpet @ Apr 18 2005, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Apr 18 2005, 04:32 PM)

When I wait for my bus in the morning (I don't know how to drive and don't intend to learn - I don't need to so, what would be the point?)


oh, Sarah. I got to age 37 in just that happy state!

*



I know but you live in the sticks now and I don't intend to ever do that, I might have grown up in Hampshire but not exactly what you'd countryside lover! I can get all I need and as muddy as I like in my garden in Dulwich!

Roo - you're right, its a useful skill to have but also an extremely expensive one to aquire. My parents bought me some driving lessons when I finished Uni and I hated them - I contued doing them for awhile and spent over £500 with nothing to show for it afterwards. To have a car on the road costs a fortune and couldn't be arsed with the hassle of leaving it outside my house to get bashed about by the traffic (I watch cars doing it all the time) for it never to be used.
I'm *never* going to learn to drive while I live in London (have you seen how people drive?) and I don't intend to move out of London anytime soon so its an irrelevant skill for me to have. I'd happily bring up kids in the area I live now and I still wouldn't need a car.
Leontien
1) Getting a license will only get more expensive, trust me
2) Driving is easier to learn when you're young
3) You cannot plan for the next 15 years SL, you don't know when you'll fall in love with that new zealand sheep farmer and be forced to drive your kids the 30 miles to the nearest kindergarten wink.gif

That said: who then lives then cares, iow: you probably have better things to spend your money on...
New Brunette
QUOTE(Jackeau @ Apr 19 2005, 05:56 AM)
But I think the issue of choice NB refers to is whether you need to go anyplace else at all.
*



Absolutely!

I thought of you all this morning when I drove past a Citroen 2CV and wondered why, when they were popular a couple of decades ago, all the 2CV owners weren't shouting and yelling that nobody else on the roads should be allowed to own any car more substantial than thier own as it would constitute a danger to them in a collision. I decided it was probably because they were all too busy taking their seats out to have picnics in lay-bys* wink.gif

(*This bit will be entirely lost on anyone who has never read a 2CV owner manual)
Leontien
Personally I don't care about the amount of fuel they use, the owners pay for that, unlike the subsidized big industry but that is another issue...
Issue remains that they are unsafe for other road users and impossible to park, or drive through european city centers...
dissident
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Apr 18 2005, 05:32 PM)
I don't know how to drive and don't intend to learn - I don't need to so, what would be the point?
*



This is one thing I agree with totally. If we weren't filling our kids heads with the pernicious lie (implicit as it maybe), that not driving a car in some ways dis-ables a person to live in western society, we might have a transport infrastructure that would allow people to ditch the oil guzzling, most unrecyclable heaps of junk that fills the roads.

The only way I can EVER see myself behind the wheel of a car is if it is fitted with a fuel-cell, and almost completely recyclable.

Somedays I shake my head in disbelief when I see people dedicating huge amounts of time and money converting their cars from the thing that rolled off the forecourt and into some weird plastic flanged heap of shit. Why? Must have very small todgers... I don't own a car, what does that say about mine... biggrin.gif

International Air Travel. Good bloody point. They should place a massive levy on the price of tickets, but them that wouldn't win votes because tourism is now a significant part of many economies.

Another form of Transport that should be banned and binned along with the 'SUV as status' is of course, Supercars. Daft, thirsty, impracticable and noisier than the average car. \I see these as ultimately irresponsible vehicles owner by ultimately irreponsible mammonites.
itsmeBarbara
Let's not mess with international air travel for at least a couple of months, okay?
geoff
QUOTE(Jackeau @ Apr 19 2005, 03:56 PM)
But I think the issue of choice NB refers to is whether you need to go anyplace else at all.

Well of course I do - how else am I going to mett you all? rolleyes.gif
tinman
i like suv's, i dont drive one, but dont see why some crappy ideology should stop people having the freedom to drive them

i'm more concerned about the radical cyclists who feel they have to ride around in large groups screaming obcenities at car drivers, and intimidating pedestrians, i have been within a wisker of being knocked over by these idiots a few times, theres enough unused cycle lanes in the country now why do the have to ride on the pavement next to pedestrians?

i'd like to see a campaign to cut back on needless cycle tracks, that are never used, i could point you at many that are never used, they have more blommin space than the pedestrians in some places, and the cyclists generally remain on the road, pure crazy waste of national resources

if you want something to campaign about go and see how crap the local hospital is, and do something to campaign about that

dont be a spoilt middle class idiot
New Brunette
I loathe cyclists that ride in pairs side by side changing what would have been just allowing them more room as you pass to an actual overtaking manoeuvre(sp), but not half as much as people riding horses that do the same thing mad.gif I'm pretty sure the law states that they should ride in single file yet where I live they *always* ride in pairs chatting to their friends then look at you as if it's YOU that's inconveniencing THEM by using the road.
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