Whatever one things of George Galloway and his Respect party, Billy Bragg is beyond the pale in doing a benefit gig for Galloway's general election opponent Oona King MP.

King is the worst kind of Blairite right-winger, a full-on member of the "let's bomb the world into democracy" brigade, and - no offence - not exactly the sharpest tool in the box (if you've seen her on telly, you'll know what I mean).

And Billy, don't give us that gumpf about how all Labour governments "disappoint" you in one way or another as an excuse, Blair's war on Iraq is off the Richter scale compared to anything the party has done in our lifetime.

Get a grip man!

MicroRepublican.

--

Are you talking about the gig at Spitz last night?
I'd completely forgotten about it - I certainly wouldn't have gone anyway if that is what it was for.

Yeah it was the Spitz gig.

While totally agreeing with the wise words of MicroRepublican I can't help wondering if he played "The Price of Oil"

It was in today's paper (April Fool anybody? Sadly, no)
--
Billy Bragg under fire for backing pro-war MP
By Robert Mendick, Evening Standard (April 1, 2005)

Singer Billy Bragg has received hate mail from antiwar activists over his support for a Labour MP who voted for the invasion of Iraq.

The singer, who quit the Labour Party over its backing of the 1991 Gulf War, played a concert to raise funds for the re-election bid of Oona King, MP for Bethnal Green and Bow.

At the general election expected in May, her 10,057 majority is being challenged by former Labour MP George Galloway, who is standing for the anti-war Respect party. Following the gig at the Spitz club in Spitalfields, Bragg received a series of derogatory emails from opponents of the war.

He admitted people had been "disappointed in him", but said opposing Labour could split the vote and let the Tories in. "We were misled over weapons of mass destruction. But there was never a Labour government that didn't disappoint me in some way," he said.

"People are angry because they have been misled. But I don't see how handing Bethnal Green and Bow to the Tories helps the people of Basra. I signed up to fight the Tories and the BNP. That is why I am here."

The 47-year-old "Barking Bard", who had hits with Between The Wars, Sexuality and Take Down The Union Jack, is a friend of Ms King.

She said she was delighted to get his support, adding: "George Galloway poses a threat.

"He does not have a chance of winning but could take just enough votes from Labour to let the Tories in."

I don't know enough about English politics so bear with me.

But would you folks who are mad at Billy have voted for Ralph Nader?

Ummm...what's that got to do with the price of spuds?

Oona King is a careerist, right-wing politician of the worst kind. There are better, more honest Tory MPs about - and I'm an Irish Republican!

MicroRepublican

The issue, as I understand it, is tactical voting.

Would you have voted for Ralph Nader, or would you have voted for pro-war John Kerry?

I pleaded my ignorance earlier, so please answer the question.

and I am a one-time Nader voter.

i don't think this is a tactical voting scenario

i really hope it wasn't an anti Respect thing.

if Oona is ousted by George, even if another party gets in, she bloody deserves to go because it will be a vote against the warmongering blairite government!

they made their bed and they must take the consequences!

i just hope the people at the benefit were just as ripped off and pissed off as we were when we went to the stephen twiglet benefit (which billy couldn't make because he had to be rushed to hospital) and the effing 'hot supper' for twenty five squid was taramasalata effing dip!

Like Barb, I don't know a whole lot about English politics either so please bear with me/explain: Aren't the Tories even *more* warmongering? Wouldn't you be better off having King in (presuming she's still "Labour" on some issues) than splitting the vote and allowing a Tory (just as warmongering, and probably worse all-around) to get the seat?

This was pretty much the situation in the US with Nader.

I don't disagree, BtP. I'm just trying to figure it out.

Isn't one of the definitions of a TROLL, 'someone who registers on a forum just in order to criticize the person/or group to whom the forum is dedicated'?

Even though this poster may have a point. I hope our moderator is keeping a close eye on this thread.

'someone who register on a forum just in order to criticize the person/or group to whom the forum is dedicated'

Actually, the Labour government (since Blair's election in 1997) has been involved in far more wars around the globe than the Tory government (under Maggie Thatcher) ever was during its 18 years in power.

Thatcher tried to take Britain (and the world) back to Victorian times. Labour under Blair is trying to take the UK (and the world) back to pre-Magna Carta (13th Century), with his crusade against fundamental legal rights and his disturbing habit of dropping TNT on third world nations. Which is worse?

There are plenty of frothing-at-the-mouth imperialists (always have been) in the British Labour Party, Billy Bragg should not be backing them. Just because in the 21st century British imperialists sometimes happen to be black (like Oona King) does not make such sickening Western arrogance suddenly 'politically correct'.

That KLF guy's a bit sensitive, isn't he?

MicroRepublican (Auld Labour voter).
--

i haven't had a look at the candidates and i don't know if the BNP is a real threat but I understand this is the seat contested by George Galloway who was expelled by the Labour Party for his opposition to the war.

tactical voting is about the labour and lib dem voters switching votes to oust the tories. That may be the case here..but i doubt it!

psssst ...take no notice of klf. unless you want to get really pissed off

Which is exactly what Bill is doing to Ms King in the picture that accompanies the article in tonight's Evening Standard.

I dunno we all do things to help out 'mates' that we sometimes feel uncomfortable with but to be honest if I'd been Bill I'd have had a previous engagement.

It is my understanding (someone please correct me if I am wrong) that the vast majority of British citizens oppose the Iraq war (occupation) There is no issue.
You folks in the UK can do the progressives in the USA a big favour and vote Liberal Democratic.
My only exposure to UK politics is CNN Questions to the Prime Minister. Lately I hvave been observing Charles Kennedy give Blair a pounding.
He is strongly opposed to this war.
If an anti war candidate becomes PM, and Great Britian withdraws its troops, Bush will have no choice than to call for a Draft. Then he's toast!!
Vote Liberal Democrat.

Sorry to disappoint Jamesleo but there is more chance of my Aunt Mabel hitting a home run in the next world series than there is of the Liberal Democrats forming a Government.

The issue, actually, is Billy Bragg getting it horribly wrong.

Comrade Woody Guthrie is certainly spinning in his grave.

MicroRepublican
--

I just caught up with this one. It’s a mistimed April Fool, right? No??

Bloody hell, wtf is going on? I can only splutter and echo the comments above. King is a died-in-the-wool Blairite, and an outspoken supporter of the Iraq War.

George Galloway was expelled from the Labour Party precisely for his outspoken opposition to the war.

Bethnal Green is a safe Labour seat with a majority of over 10000. The chances of George Galloway even coming close to damaging significantly the Labour majority are zilch, though as he’s Respect’s ‘flagship’ candidate, the Blairites, having tried and failed to knock him down, will continue to go after him at every opportunity.

Is this an accurate quote from Bill: “But I don't see how handing Bethnal Green and Bow to the Tories helps the people of Basra” ? I hope not, as it’s a long way from reality.

I know Oona King is a buddy of Bill’s, but then so is Boris Johnson (sort of). What next?

I’m glad I didn’t hear about this one in advance. We’re (sadly) talking ‘reputation severely dented’ here, and it sure as hell won’t just be in Braggland.

How about a comment from Bill here? I think one is needed.

Pete

Perhaps Billy Bragg is merely positioning himself for a Knighthood in a few years time? He wouldn't be the first.

If there is one event to expose BB's "socialism of the heart" shallowness for what it really is, then it was his support for Oona King on Thursday night.

MicroRepublican.

Shocked that Billy has fallen for the old "let the tories in" rubbish. There is no chance of the Tories winning Bethnal green and Bow. Peter Hain writing in the guardian last week warned that as many as 71 seats might be lost to the Tories if Labour voters defect to another party.

If this were to happen the Tories would have less than 250 seats....even allowing for Labour losing a few extra seats to the Libs and Plaid/SNP Labour would lose their majority (just) but be biggest party by a long way. They would be dependent on either the Libs or us nationalists. Tony Blair would quit and there would be a different Labour prime minister......

Your choice at the general election is a Tony Blair led government with a blank cheque to whatever it wants...more wars more attacks on civil liberties etc...or a minority Labour government working with other parties.....The Tories cannot win ....Labour know it, the Tories know it but sadly Billy does not want to believe it....

I agree totally with cymrumark’s analysis (except that Blair quitting if it turned into reality, nice thought though it is, is I reckon unlikely). The best result in the impending general election would be a minority Labour Government dependent on support from the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

Ironically this would push this warmongering Labour Government to the left, on social issues as well as Iraq / Iran / Syria / Israel etc.

Pete

I still can’t believe that Billy Bragg is actively campaigning for the ghastly pro-war Blairite MP in Bethnal Green and Bow.

If Billy has become one of New Labour’s few remaining enthusiasts, it’s going to be hard to take him seriously again.

Some background to this story in today’s Guardian below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics...rticle_continue

Quite right too!

Read an article in the Mirror the other day at my mum and dad's by some some twerp hectoring the readership about the need to support Labour and not allow the tories in by voting lib-dem etc ad bloody infinitum...finishing off with "if the tories get in you'll only have yourselves to blame"

Cheeky fucker!

If the tories get in it'll be because the majority of the left wing support for the Labour party have been comprehensively kicked in the privates by hundreds of sycophantic spineless labour MP's who should have listened to their electorate and told Blair, Reid, Whoon? and the rest where to stick their illegal attack on a pathetic poverty stricken completely non threatening islamic state.

AMEN!

So Bill, you did that did you? For a friend it seems. Well, you are on weak ground old chap.

My only real close friends are the people that I went to school with fifty years ago. We are still friends now. My experience has been that friendship transcends politics and I would do anything for my friends, almost. One of my friends was a total arsehole politically. He was an ultra right wing conservative Irish catholic. I'd give my life for him but I would not, ever, stand on his political platform. And he wouldn't stand on mine either.

Perhaps we should remember that Bill is a singer songwriter, a supporter of the Trade Unions and an anti fascist in his songs and in his public utterances. He makes no pretence of being a political leader or being a great political thinker and shies away from that responsibility. I would expect him to be sharp enough though to see through this New Labour Party's bankrupt squealing about 'we mustn't let the Tories in'. The real issue between this Blairite woman and George Galloway is the invasion of another sovereign country and killing it's civilian population for political expediency.

Bill made a mistake. I hope he doesn't make any more.

I found a list of MPs af all MPs who voted for and against the war here: Arab Media Watch. Follow the Iraq War Vote link on the left.

I don't know anything about the site - just googled to it.

And yeah, my MP is Labour and pro-war. But I knew that anyway. Maybe I could get Bill to play a gig at Stripes on this basis (sorry mate, couldn't resist it).

Pete

Pete have you got another log in?
I thought you were just PeteC?

You'll turn into BIngalss/ItsMeBarbara if you're not careful*

*though that would be no bad thing, obviously!

I think Billy's action here is very ill conceived, indeed. Mates or no mates, if I disagree with my mates politically then I'd never stand on their political platform.

Unfortunately, I can't vote in this election (not registered in time) but if I could my vote would only go to an anti-war Labour candidate otherwise it would be a Lib Dem, Green or Respect.

Pete has only ever been Pete on this Forum. You're losing it, Sarah

No, he definitely has a PeteC moniker. It has the sickle and star as the avatar - go check out the Tolpuddle thread!

I ain't losing nothing!

theres no Petec listed in the member list...

Sarah - check the Tolpuddle thread.

Pssst - let you in on a secret. People can change their avatar

Sarah, I think you’re going to have to start a different topic if you want to go on about me…

I’ve always been Pete here (and most places I post).

Anyway, since it was mentioned, the new avatar (sadly illegible when reduced to 64 by 64), is from the excellent “Regime Change Begins at Home” pack of cards, available from the wonderful Bookmarks Bookshop (by the British Museum).

Can we get back on topic please, or I’ll tell Toby

Pete

LOL!
Sorry Pete!
It was just that I know you lost your original log in and then came back with a new one - which is why the PeteC/Pete confusion.
I know who you are anyway!

My local MP is a Tory. We never had any other party representing us in Parliament around here and that is not likely to change in the foreseeable future.

BUT he did stand up against his party whips, unlikely the cowardly turds in my own party, and he voted AGAINST Blair's war.

I won't be voting for him though ...

I may vote for my own Party, depends who the bosses choose to represent us down here. The odds are that even in unwinnable seats like mine they will choose one of their own pro war hopefuls. Democracy eh?

Since the war I hardly hear a word from them ... just the odd begging letter. The local party became demoralised and is now more or less defunct.

My oldest and best friend has been a lifelong tory. He caught it from his parents and all attempts by me to make him better have failed dismally so I've long since given up.

He, rather bizzarely, thinks me stark staring mad to be a socialist but has never tried to argue me over to his side of the political divide.

But we're friends and always will be and he'd do anything for me as I would for him.

Except for one thing. Neither of us would support the other on a matter of political principle.

It just wouldn't be right.

BTW... When the war was in the offing he was actually against it.

Since I live in a very safe tory seat I'll be voting Lib Dem. It's petty but it's the only way I have of truly registering my utter disgust at the way my Labour party has been hijacked by the far right.
Some women , with 200 years cumulative Labour support between them, were all saying on this mornings Today programme, how they were either voting Lib Dem or hadn't made up their minds what to do. In previous years they' like many of us I expect, had no doubt which box the cross was going into. None! You didn't have to pause for a seconds thought did you?

Yet in eight years whilst on the one hand turning things round and for the better for millions of the poor, less well off and other groups previously ignored or discriminated against by the tories, Blair has squandered all that good will through arrogance and lies.

I've now spent months wondering how I will vote in the next election and I'm angry at Blair for that alone.

Following the group interview with the women Labour supporters/members we had the dubious pleasure of an interview with the grand wizard of pomposity, the lord patron of patronisation, Dr John Ried.

Having regarded him many years ago as a socialist firebrand up to whom I should look, I now hold him beneath contempt. It would be difficult given his pronouncements on smoking bans, the Andrew Gillighan report and the Butler inquiry to imagine anybody being able to be more patronising pompus and bullying than he has been over the last three years. But today on Today he bloody managed it.
You've got to hand it to the bloke. It was an impressive display.
If for a nanosecond he thought his views and comments on the wavering Labour members mentioned earlier, the Iraq war and its aftermath, the question of Tony Blairs deception of the British public and the sense in allowing postal voting to continue in its present form in the UK were going to make me think "Oh! I was wrong all along. I must vote Labour at the next election after all" he suceeded in only one thing. Which was to confirm my belief that the country would be better off without Blair as PM and most certainly without Reid in any position of power and influence over me and people I love.
I firmly believe that every time he opens his evil mouth another old Labour supporter sighs a sad sigh and resigns themselves to voting for Charles Kennedy on May 5th.

this should perhaps be in funniest thing thread but i took a look over on the 'other side' just now and spotted this contibution..

A literal quote from a mate of mine this evening (who knows me to be a BB fan): "What's this I hear about Billy Bragg playing a pro-war gig?"

OK, that's stretching it somewhat, but there is no underestimating the shit Bill has got himself into by playing this gig, and how far and wide it will travel.

What a shame.

Pete

(I hope Uncle Bill reads this)

I was talking to a folksinger friend of mine; Chris Buhalis a wonderful righteous guy. I told him about the shitstorm caused by the Oona gig, Chris said, "Billy just just say what I say when people complain about the gigs I do." I said, "Chris, what is that?" He said, "Fuck you."

Babs, of course "Uncle Bill" will say "fuck you" (to any and all of us).

It's his right. We are, after all, slagging him off.

But it doesn't make what he's done any less nauseating.

MicroRepublican.

being billy he probably won't. He never backs away from a debate. He will make his case. He has already said it was a compromise. I still think he was wrong.

barb... i don't know if you really got a reply about whether or not supporting Oona was like voting for nader. I'm afraid i am useless at american politics so i can't make a direct comparision.

did you read the guardian article . I think that makes it clear what the issues are in this particular instance.

btw .. I have quite a few reservations about george galloway and Respect but i think to compare him to Mosley stinks!

edited to say it was oona's agent, Graham Taylor, who made the comparison .... "The East End has a strong sense of history and tradition. In the past we have seen off a moustachioed demagogue who formed a party in his own image and around his own ego. We did it in 1936, we will do it in 2005."

as if it was New Bloddy Labour who saw of mosley in 1936!

Of course Bill won't reply "Fuck off" to criticisms of his decision to play this gig. He is way too intelligent, open to debate, and articulate, and has far too much respect for the opinions of his fans, to do that.

It would be useful to have hear his views on the issue, however, either by way of a contribution to this thread, or via a statement elsewhere on this site (his internet mouthpiece after all) or elsewhere.

Pete

Pete and MicroRepublican, you can use Google to maybe get a sense of humor.

MicroRepublican, my name is not Babs.

BtP, I never got an answer. People would rather bitch and moan than give an honest answer. (not you love, you engage and discuss, but you're rare)

Billy doesn't owe me or anybody an explanation.

barb, whether he owes an explanation or not he has given one! That's what Billy will do, Stand up and say what he thinks whether we agree with him or not!

After his gig, Bragg admitted that lending his support to a pro-war MP had been a compromise."I am not here to fight George Galloway. I am here to fight Tories. If people think that just voting for George is going to send a message to the government, they are wrong".

I think Billy is wrong.

This particular seat (ie the constituency in East London that Oona K is standing in) is specal in that the anti war party, Respect, is fielding it's leader George Galloway. Votes for George will very much be seen as votes against the war. Other constituencies where Labour lose votes will not have the same signifigance.

The tactical voting campaign campaign in Dorset which Billy organised was a different kettle of fish altogether. Unless of course Billy is doing a vote swap with Respect in Barking

If there was a serious threat that the BNP would actually get a seat in parliament as a result of a split vote with Respect then there might be a case for biting the bullet but i don't think that is the case in Bow.

I see Keri posted on here to echo Martyn's sentiments. Perhaps she can explain the comparison with voting for Nader.

Believe me, I haven't laughed so much over anything like the whole Billy & Oona love-in for a long time. The alternative is to cry.

I agree that BB owes nobody an explanation. But that doesn't mean he's not a mighty misguided man this time.

MicroRepublican. (Auld Labour voter)

The man himself, contributing to the debate on tactical voting on the BBC News web-site ...

I don't buy it.

Billy said that?

Blimey!

I'm not having any of that either.

What did NEW Labour expect?
They weren't going to give us a referendum on whether or not to go to war were they?
Well now its time for those on the left of the party to do what all true lefties do and engage in a frenzy of self flagellation.

The leaders don't like it do they?

Well FUCK THEM!

Howard is NOT going to win the general election ergo the opportunity is available to give Blair a massive big kick in his sanctimonious, arrogant, patronising, smug balls.

I ended up voting for pro-war Kerry (sure wasn't voing for W!) after voting for anti-war Dean in my state's primary.
I think comparing the Oona King and Billy's sing-song for her campaign and Nader is like comparing apples and oranges.

And I agree this particular seat in Bow and Bethnal Green isn't about tactical voting either. It's about punishing a MP who to my understanding is the worst of the Blairites and if this election isn't at least part a referendum on Iraq and the war on terrorism then what is it? I think elected officals should listen to those that elect them to office instead of doing everything a misguided and lame-ass Prime Minister wants.

But with that said, isn't George Galloway madder than a bag of ferrets?