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damon
If you are being honest Joe, then I take that back.
I always thought you seemed like a nice guy. One of our couple of exchanges was an appreciation of Eddie Mair, the BBC radio 4 presenter from Dundee.
It's not nice being at the center of ridicule btw.
I can see why I might be deluded in someways. But listening to Claire Fox the other night, I thought she was persuasive. And the bloke advocating a peasant revival was an idiot.
In the short term, in places that have been ravaged by war and poverty perhaps.
But in a hundred years time, modernity and science will be the only way.
OK so I had a few beers.
Was that really gibberish?
Help smile.gif
Sarah lady
QUOTE(Joe @ Mar 29 2008, 02:58 PM) *

QUOTE(damon @ Mar 29 2008, 02:55 PM) *

and is actually now, a forum bore?


*COUGH*


Joe, I love you!


You have chosen to ignore all posts from: people who don't get the message
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Mar 29 2008, 03:55 PM) *

Jon - you know, 'KKK' and all that bile.

QUOTE(damon @ Mar 29 2008, 05:23 PM) *

OK so I had a few beers.

Ah, now I get it!
So if I say I only said I thought you were a racist pillowcase wearing dickhead that stalks young asian girls and spends an inherent amount of time putting anti-white feelings into the heads of black and asian blokes that might be looking in your direction (as per all of your early posts) and then add the PS that I'd had a couple of shandys before posting, that'd be fine then, yes?
arturo bandini
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Mar 28 2008, 01:48 PM) *

QUOTE(arturo bandini @ Mar 28 2008, 01:08 PM) *

But KL beware! Isnt it still true that every time Bragg's campaigned in an election - he's been on the losing side!?


I'm pretty sure Labour won in 1997 and Billy backed them.

Actually no - Labour didn't win in 1997 - a bunch of Tory wankers dressed up as Labour won wink.gif

Just to be a pedant - did he actually campaign in those elections - ie do gigs a la Red Wedge?Or turn up to a constituency like for Oona King? - Rather than just give his verbal backing.Im not sure - but dont think he did. I think -New Labour were always wary of the old red wedge guard. And BB prob felt equally suspicious of Blair and co - but like all of us felt we just had to get the tories out - and offered notional support.

I was remembering that old quote from Pete Jenner. Something like "If you want to win an election get Billy to campaign for the other side."
barmyrob
QUOTE(arturo bandini @ Mar 30 2008, 12:49 PM) *

QUOTE(barmyrob @ Mar 28 2008, 01:48 PM) *

QUOTE(arturo bandini @ Mar 28 2008, 01:08 PM) *

But KL beware! Isnt it still true that every time Bragg's campaigned in an election - he's been on the losing side!?


I'm pretty sure Labour won in 1997 and Billy backed them.

Actually no - Labour didn't win in 1997 - a bunch of Tory wankers dressed up as Labour won wink.gif

Just to be a pedant - did he actually campaign in those elections - ie do gigs a la Red Wedge?Or turn up to a constituency like for Oona King? - Rather than just give his verbal backing.Im not sure - but dont think he did. I think -New Labour were always wary of the old red wedge guard. And BB prob felt equally suspicious of Blair and co - but like all of us felt we just had to get the tories out - and offered notional support.

I was remembering that old quote from Pete Jenner. Something like "If you want to win an election get Billy to campaign for the other side."


Well for sure he did a '97 election night gig. I know some people on the forum went (I would have but was working that night). He also did a tour running up to the election in April '97 and I'm certain he didn't ignore it.

He may not have "officially" campaigned - nut he certainly did his own thing.

In 2001 he started his tactical voting thing to "keep the Tories out."

He still plays party conference, so I don't think he's ever been too bothered about New Labour.
arturo bandini
Interesting. Thanks. Plays party conference eh? I had no idea he was still so close to em.
Mick H
QUOTE(arturo bandini @ Mar 31 2008, 11:06 AM) *

Interesting. Thanks. Plays party conference eh? I had no idea he was still so close to em.


Yeah I saw in in 2005 at the labour party conference got his autograph and had a brief word. Tony Blair was at the TULO reception he played at and they had a bit of banter about House of Lords reform.
damon
Is this ''a step too far'' I have heard this guy speak on numerous occasions, and always thought highly of him. He's been an East London GP for 20 odd years, so he must know something about MMR
QUOTE

Monday 31 March 2008
Dr Michael Fitzpatrick
I’m backing Boris for London mayor
Where Ken Livingstone cynically postured against MMR, risking the health of London’s children, Boris Johnson at least defended the vaccine.


When Ken Livingstone says that the contest for mayor of London is ‘not Celebrity Big Brother’, this should be interpreted as confirming that, in fact, this election has more in common with celebrity culture than it does with any competition between serious political alternatives.

Livingstone, the current mayor, is the cheeky chappie who, more than any other Labour politician, personifies the evacuation of politics from British politics and of socialism from the British left. First as leader of the Greater London Council in the 1980s and then as mayor since 2000, he has presided over the degradation of left-wing politics and its transformation into posturing publicity stunts and pork-barrel multiculturalism.

Another political celebrity who has much in common with Livingstone is Arnold Schwarzenegger, governor of California. The contrast in their physiques provides an apt symbol of the special relationship. One issue illustrates the common lack of character of these two politicians of our times: their statements on vaccination.

Blimey, what should a fellow think of that? He'd rather have a Tory elected than Livingstone? blink.gif
I was going to abstain or vote for the Liberal candidate.
But he does give his reasons why he can't stand Ken. And he was at the sharp end of this MMR thing.
QUOTE
In July 2002, Livingstone declared that his (still unborn) child would not be receiving the combined measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, but would be having these vaccines separately at one of the sleazy private clinics offering this service in London. In August 2004, Schwarzenegger declared that flu vaccines containing the mercury-based preservative thimerosal would be banned from the state of California.

Both MMR and mercury have been linked, by junk scientists, lazy journalists and ambulance-chasing lawyers, with autism. At the height of a wave of public fears, the first instinct of these PR politicians was to jump on the bandwagon.

Partly as a result of falling uptake of MMR, more than 400 children contracted measles in London in 2007. In Hackney, where I work as a general practitioner (GP), we had more than 300 cases and three children were admitted to intensive care units. In Barnet, where there was another outbreak, one child required a period of artificial ventilation. So far this year, there has been another outbreak in Lewisham – and cases continue in Hackney. I have seen three children with measles in my surgery in the past fortnight. Mercifully, nobody has yet died in these outbreaks.

For Livingstone, an interview about MMR was simply an opportunity to distract attention from another round of adverse publicity in the London press. Like Tony Blair’s equivocation over whether his son Leo had received MMR, Livingstone’s ill-informed and cynical gesture helped to undermine public confidence in immunisations, to the detriment of the health of children in London.

So Livingstone really is crap then.
The doctor, a real strong leftist and progressive, I thought when I heard him give lectures, finishes off like this:
QUOTE
It is true that Boris Johnson, Livingstone’s main opponent in the mayoral election, is a Tory. But so what? In the Celebrity Big Brother of the mayoral elections, none of the old labels of right and left means anything anymore. At the height of the MMR controversy, Johnson rejected the scare and endorsed the childhood immunisation programme. He even publicly criticised the Daily Mail over its irresponsible scare-mongering on the issue. This at least shows a glimmer of the sort of integrity and character that is conspicuously lacking in the Labour candidate.

Are the rival positions of the mayoral candidates on MMR a sufficient justification for voting? In the absence of any other differences of policy on anything that matters, this is as good a reason as any for voting for Boris. The fact that he is a fellow cyclist pledged to get rid of the bendy buses is just a bonus.
Sarah lady
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: idiots that write twaddle not even good enough for the bad science website to mock
damon
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Mar 31 2008, 11:48 PM) *

bad science website

I think this is Sarah's first ever inference to anything at all by Spiked online. Amd lo and behold, she calls it that.
All this time I'd wondered smile.gif
I'd go along with the doctor myself.

I guess this will 'fly about a mile over' as well.
QUOTE
Mick Hume
London calling — and we all ought to listen
The celebrity mayor show, featuring Ken, Boris and Brian talking about bendy-buses, provides a capital snapshot of where politics is heading.


Heard the one about the Stalinist miserabilist, the public-school class clown and the gay ex-police chief? Sorry, you’re right, it’s no laughing matter. The May election to be the next mayor of London may understandably seem of little interest to anybody outside the city. Come to that, it is perfectly understandable that few Londoners have shown much interest in it to date. But the mayoral campaign is worthy of close attention if only because it provides a capital snapshot of where politics is heading in Britain.
''Stalinist miserabilist?'' Bill Bragg is not going to agree with that. He called Ken progressive.

They may well be the bad science website, (If Sarah reckons so, I have to take that seriously), but I have always prefered their political analysis. Stuff like this:
QUOTE
Spiked writers are sometimes accused of criticising everything by readers who ask ‘haven’t you got any good news for us?’ Well, London rather sums up the situation. The good news is that we live in a society that by any objective measurement is far ahead of anything that went before it. People who live in our prosperous, civilised, multi-ethnic capital city tend to be wealthier, healthier, more tolerant and better informed than ever. The bad news, however, is that we also live under a vapid political culture seriously lacking in the leadership and vision necessary to take society forward – a problem encapsulated in the thick smog overshadowing the London poll.

I have long been assured by my old friends on the Labour left that, contrary to my belief that traditional left v right politics are dead, the London mayoral contest would boil down to a straight fight between ‘Red’ Ken Livingstone, the Labour mayor, and ‘True Blue’ Boris Johnson, the Conservative MP (with Brian Paddick, the Liberal Democrat candidate and former senior Metropolitan Police officer, holding their coats). So, what is the big issue of principle dividing these giants of Socialism and Toryism as they battle for the soul of one of the world’s great cities at the start of the twenty-first century? Er, the future of bendy buses. Which, perhaps appropriately for politics today, appear able to turn to the left and the right at the same time.

In fact, the London race has become something very different. It looks like a parade of the emerging trends in post-left/right political life – and it does not make a particularly appealing mayor’s show.

The article goes on to raise four main points:
No party politics - in which it is argued that the top three candidates want to distance themselves from their party political labels. And says: ''The old politics of left and right have not been replaced by anything new of substance. Rather, politics is suspended in limbo, with no grand visions and few principles.''

Any-shade-so-long-as-it’s-green politics which suggests that they are all giving it a load of green bollocks for all it's worth.
QUOTE
In the absence of any clear political principles of their own, they are all falling back on environmentalism as an ersatz manifesto and source of authority. There is much grand talk of saving the planet – with typical modesty Livingstone even claims that, were he to lose and Johnson to win, it would ‘undermine politicians across the world’ in their battle against climate change.

Identity politics - which suggests there is much pork bareling going on. Livingstone cosying up to muslim groups like the MCB and MAB. And we have seen concerted campaigns by Livingstone supporters to paint Boris as a racist. He meanwhile is focusing in the outer boroughs.
QUOTE
Whether such identity groups truly exist as solid voting blocs is open to question. What seems more certain, however, is that this niche approach will create more divisions than unity, and further encourage the sordid system of what Americans call ‘pork barrel politics’ (no offence intended to Muslim or Jewish sensibilities) where self-styled community spokespersons vie for favours and patronage.
Remember Munira Mirza's Diversity is divisive Sarah lady??

The final is the paragraph headed: Court politics which is quite long so I won't quote it all, but it says this:
QUOTE
Like British politics from Downing Street downwards, the whole thing has the feel more of medieval court politics than of a public fight between popular movements. Small cliques of insiders grouped around egotistical figureheads are manoeuvring for advantage in the media, stabbing one another in the back and poisoning their enemies’ wine (or whisky in Ken’s case). Meanwhile, life for the mass of us serfs and peasants outside goes on largely unmoved by these intra-elite plots and attempted coups.

So I might be an ''idiot'' and Spiked the ''bad science website'' - but at least it doesn't promote ethical (bleeding) T shirts biggrin.gif
barmyrob
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: RCP dunderheads
damon
I was at least trying some what. He wasn't.

But then I suppose that's the inequality that is bound to be painfully obvious, when a smug intelectual decides to have fun with someone from inferior stock.

In one line, all the post above is swept away on a wave of ridicule.
With calls of ''bravo'' and ''wot he said'' and ''barmyrob, you're the best'' ringing across the forum rolleyes.gif
Jon
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock
barmyrob
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock


racist!

laugh.gif
Jon
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Apr 1 2008, 03:47 PM) *

QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock

racist!

laugh.gif

WOLF! laugh.gif
damon
QUOTE(Sarah lady @ Mar 31 2008, 11:48 PM) *

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: idiots that write twaddle not even good enough for the bad science website to mock

Wow, her first ever mentioning of the Spiked online website (after all those ''fuck off you moron''s, and mentions of ''the ignore function.'') What do you reckon. Out of ten?? smile.gif

It's pretty insightful isn't it?
Though I think barmyrob has been coaching her, (which is a bit of a cheat really.)
But still, credit where credit is due.
She nailed 'em didn't she??
nevski
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: croydon
geoff
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 2 2008, 01:37 AM) *
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Apr 1 2008, 03:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock
racist!

laugh.gif
WOLF! laugh.gif
Fuck you, it took me a while to figure out that wasn't an acronym for something. Writhe on laughing floor? tongue.gif
Jon
QUOTE(geoff @ Apr 2 2008, 01:42 AM) *

QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 2 2008, 01:37 AM) *
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Apr 1 2008, 03:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock
racist!

laugh.gif
WOLF! laugh.gif
Fuck you, it took me a while to figure out that wasn't an acronym for something. Writhe on laughing floor? tongue.gif

I'll think of an acronym, I've got bugger all else to do today.
Joe
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 2 2008, 08:16 AM) *

QUOTE(geoff @ Apr 2 2008, 01:42 AM) *

QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 2 2008, 01:37 AM) *
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Apr 1 2008, 03:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock
racist!

laugh.gif
WOLF! laugh.gif
Fuck you, it took me a while to figure out that wasn't an acronym for something. Writhe on laughing floor? tongue.gif

I'll think of an acronym, I've got bugger all else to do today.


We Only Love Females?

I think that's very homophobic of you, and totally unnecessary. You should all be ashamed.
geoff
We Openly Loathe Fuckwits ?
nevski
would obviously like flagellation.
Maria
QUOTE(Joe @ Apr 2 2008, 10:16 PM) *

QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 2 2008, 08:16 AM) *

QUOTE(geoff @ Apr 2 2008, 01:42 AM) *

QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 2 2008, 01:37 AM) *
QUOTE(barmyrob @ Apr 1 2008, 03:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Jon @ Apr 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: inferior stock
racist!

laugh.gif
WOLF! laugh.gif
Fuck you, it took me a while to figure out that wasn't an acronym for something. Writhe on laughing floor? tongue.gif

I'll think of an acronym, I've got bugger all else to do today.


We Only Love Females?

I think that's very homophobic of you, and totally unnecessary. You should all be ashamed.


Unless you are referring to lesbians, in which case that's very heterophobic.

I have no acronym to offer, but I like the ones proffered so far.

Wanderlust overcomes lonely fascists?
Jon
I have nothing more to offer laugh.gif X4
damon
I don't get any of those last posts. That ''WOLF'' thing is probably wank.
But this one from Maria had me wondering:
QUOTE
Wanderlust overcomes lonely fascists?

Dr. Michael Fitzpatrick and MMR?
All that stuff about Ken and Boris by Joe nevski geoff etc. (Who don't ever stray from their narrow PC path).
If this is progressive, then I might just vote for the Tory.
I mean, after the analysis from Sarah lady, and that of the doctor, what is a fellow with a vote to think?
Sarah lady
I think the right to vote should be IQ/breath tested.
damon
She said it.
She's into all this ethical bollocks.
Joe
QUOTE(damon @ Apr 3 2008, 10:14 AM) *

Joe nevski geoff etc. (Who don't ever stray from their narrow PC path).


Lol.[1]

-----

1. Aaron M. White. 2003. What happened? Alcohol, memory blackouts, and the brain. Alcohol Res Health. 2003;27(2):186-96. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/186-196.htm
JBoyd
QUOTE(damon @ Mar 31 2008, 07:31 PM) *

Is this ''a step too far'' I have heard this guy speak on numerous occasions, and always thought highly of him. He's been an East London GP for 20 odd years, so he must know something about MMR
QUOTE

Monday 31 March 2008
Dr Michael Fitzpatrick
I’m backing Boris for London mayor
Where Ken Livingstone cynically postured against MMR, risking the health of London’s children, Boris Johnson at least defended the vaccine.


When Ken Livingstone says that the contest for mayor of London is ‘not Celebrity Big Brother’, this should be interpreted as confirming that, in fact, this election has more in common with celebrity culture than it does with any competition between serious political alternatives.

Livingstone, the current mayor, is the cheeky chappie who, more than any other Labour politician, personifies the evacuation of politics from British politics and of socialism from the British left. First as leader of the Greater London Council in the 1980s and then as mayor since 2000, he has presided over the degradation of left-wing politics and its transformation into posturing publicity stunts and pork-barrel multiculturalism.

Another political celebrity who has much in common with Livingstone is Arnold Schwarzenegger, governor of California. The contrast in their physiques provides an apt symbol of the special relationship. One issue illustrates the common lack of character of these two politicians of our times: their statements on vaccination.

Blimey, what should a fellow think of that? He'd rather have a Tory elected than Livingstone? blink.gif
I was going to abstain or vote for the Liberal candidate.
But he does give his reasons why he can't stand Ken. And he was at the sharp end of this MMR thing.
QUOTE
In July 2002, Livingstone declared that his (still unborn) child would not be receiving the combined measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, but would be having these vaccines separately at one of the sleazy private clinics offering this service in London. In August 2004, Schwarzenegger declared that flu vaccines containing the mercury-based preservative thimerosal would be banned from the state of California.

Both MMR and mercury have been linked, by junk scientists, lazy journalists and ambulance-chasing lawyers, with autism. At the height of a wave of public fears, the first instinct of these PR politicians was to jump on the bandwagon.

Partly as a result of falling uptake of MMR, more than 400 children contracted measles in London in 2007. In Hackney, where I work as a general practitioner (GP), we had more than 300 cases and three children were admitted to intensive care units. In Barnet, where there was another outbreak, one child required a period of artificial ventilation. So far this year, there has been another outbreak in Lewisham – and cases continue in Hackney. I have seen three children with measles in my surgery in the past fortnight. Mercifully, nobody has yet died in these outbreaks.

For Livingstone, an interview about MMR was simply an opportunity to distract attention from another round of adverse publicity in the London press. Like Tony Blair’s equivocation over whether his son Leo had received MMR, Livingstone’s ill-informed and cynical gesture helped to undermine public confidence in immunisations, to the detriment of the health of children in London.

So Livingstone really is crap then.
The doctor, a real strong leftist and progressive, I thought when I heard him give lectures, finishes off like this:
QUOTE
It is true that Boris Johnson, Livingstone’s main opponent in the mayoral election, is a Tory. But so what? In the Celebrity Big Brother of the mayoral elections, none of the old labels of right and left means anything anymore. At the height of the MMR controversy, Johnson rejected the scare and endorsed the childhood immunisation programme. He even publicly criticised the Daily Mail over its irresponsible scare-mongering on the issue. This at least shows a glimmer of the sort of integrity and character that is conspicuously lacking in the Labour candidate.

Are the rival positions of the mayoral candidates on MMR a sufficient justification for voting? In the absence of any other differences of policy on anything that matters, this is as good a reason as any for voting for Boris. The fact that he is a fellow cyclist pledged to get rid of the bendy buses is just a bonus.



I think Fitzpatrick is one of the better writers on 'Spiked!', and I also think he's spot on about MMR (his articles on that early on were amongst those that made me hope that it might be a good site).
However, to decide against voting for Livingstone on this basis is ludicrous: five or six years ago, the MMR scare was genuinely alarming a lot of parents. The fact that the scare was based on 'bad science' says more about the way in which research informs public debate and behaviour, and our attitude to scientists, than anything else, and to castigate Ken for acting as many parents did is stupid.
There are two particular ironies: first, it actually reinforces the tendency to view the mayoral election purely as a choice between personalities. And second, Ken is being criticised for making the wrong decision as judged against scientific research - which is exactly what 'Spiked!' do in relation to climate change!
JBoyd
QUOTE(Maria @ Mar 26 2008, 08:19 AM) *

QUOTE

I think that 'Spiked!' dislike the 'new' atheists for suggesting (as they see it) that Homo Sapiens is 'just another animal'. They want to see man as 'made in God's image' without there being any God....
It's all linked to their view on animal rights, environmentalism, and so on.



My response to this is not very nuanced. It's more like "tough shit. We are just another animal. We have the capacity of more complex action and thought than most other animals, but so what? "

The Dalai Llama is extremely important to the Tibetan people. Without him their culture would have been even more damaged by the occupation than it has. I think he's been a remarkable leader in a very, very difficult time. He supports a secular, democratic government in Tibet.

Considering current events in Tibet I have been thinking about starting a Tibet thread. Time is very limited for me at the moment, but it seems more appropriate to do that than continue discussing Tibet here.


Again, I think that the problem for 'Spiked!' would be that if Homo Sapiens is just another animal, the question arises as to why one should care about other people more than say, farm animals or endangered species.
So they end up looking for ways to differentiate humans from other animals to justify humanism without a philosophical reliance on God - and attacking the 'new atheists' for 'relegating' humans to the same position as 'inferior' species.
damon
Edited.

Anyway, I agree with you about Dr. Michael Fitzpatrick and MMR (Sarah chooses that monent to call Spiked the ''bad science website'') - So I guess she was disagreeing with the East London GP (of 25 years).

I do agree that deciding to vote for Boris on that alone is somewhat spurious, but the ''left'' arguments against him are also pathetic.
The ''Picanninies'' and ''watermellon smiles'' that some people are running with, is way past its sell by date.

Johnson had an astute insight into the Stephen Lawerence inquirey that had the victim's mother come out publicly against Johnson. I think he was right.
Obviously the Billy Bragg Forums is not the place to discuss any detail like this.
You get people in Australia who don't even know who Rod Liddle or Janet Albrechtsen are.


Liddle and Albrechtsen are your every day commentators that come from the the irreverent (lazy) right.
But I think wherever you live, it is esential (I think) to at least listen to, or read these people.
Otherwise you can end up in a narrow minded cul de sac.

Geoff calls me a racist, yet at the same time he admits that he is uninformed.
I'm sure a Paul Hogan character would have a choice saying about that kind thing.

''Common sense rescues indigenous children'' is the title of the link I did above.
Even though I have only half read it, I now that Sarah and Joe (although they will never actually read it) are diametrically opposed to it.

Why? Because they are into the Midnight Oil Song.
Jon
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: racists who are really racists (honest guv) but don't mind using racially offensive terms
damon
Jon, I think you lower the tone of the forum.
Or should I say, that you are keeping the tone of the forum low? I have made my opinion clear that I think that there is an unhealthy amount of PC infused throughout the BBF. Your post above Jon, is a great example of such rubbish.
I think you are refering to comments made by Johnson, that could be deemed as racially offencive.
I have said it was right that he apologised, as offence could surely be taken. It was taken (offence); but I'm pretty sure none was intended when the words were spoken.

This was our Deborah today in the Independent on Ken:
QUOTE
Mayor Ken's private and secret children

That Ken Livingstone is full of surprises, and the latest is that he'd had three other children before he started the family we all knew about, with his present partner Emma Beal. It's a bit weird, but as the man himself says, "all the people who have shared my private life at one point or another was on the basis that it was private between us". Which is fair enough, since Livingstone can't ever be accused of ever having aligned himself with any group advocating traditional family values.

But he also says that "there's a difference between private and secret and I think the media's got to understand that". I understand perfectly well. Two of Livingstone's children are "private" while another three are, or were, "secret". There is a difference there, and surely Livingstone knows it, just as there is a difference between "protective" and "paranoid".

And this is the link by Janet Albrechtsen that I failed to make yesterday.
Who's she? you may ask. Just some Australian commentator that you probably never heard of. Just like Geoff has never heard of Rod Liddle, most of us non Australian's have ever heard of her.
But if you want to be better than Jon or Geoff, I think that people like Albrechtsen should be read from time to time. To give you balance.

This was a PM from geoff, that I was thinking of replying to, but really can't get up the enthusiasm to do so:
QUOTE
hello Damon

There's no point having a crack at you online, but your post about those TGs having a baby displays some pretty obvious biases. Quotes like "the army are supposed to be macho" are one of two things: ignorant, or designed to deliberately inflame or provoke comment.

It is true I've accused you of being racist where you've said things that clearly demonstrate racism. I'd suggest you take the accusations as a reason to re-evaluate what you've said and learn something from it, instead of just behaving like the victim of some random put-down. But I'm buggered if I can remember where they are.

This place (and Rob is very accurate when he says it's a Billy Bragg forum not a leftist forum) is like a pub. No one person can dictate where the conversation goes. And moaning about how people respond to you instead of listening more to *why* they are taking shots at you won't win you any favours.

Rob's getting mean with his campaign of "you have chosen to ignore all posts from" and you'll notice some of us are having a play on that. But he's coming from a place of frustration where you seem unwilling to examine the basis of the criticism you cop - which is dangerous if you aren't interested in learning something.

When I came to Billy Bragg's music, I knew fuck all about politics - and largely still don't - but I've learnt a lot from reading what other people say and analysing the thought processes behind their posts. I think I've become more intelligent and more compassionate towards other people and their points of view, and I reckon you'd benefit if you did the same.

Of course, if I'm wrong about you and you are just deliberately provoking people, then you won't take any of this friendly advice to heart.

cheers
Geoff

Maybe it's true that you should't discuss religion and politics in public. (Even more so over the internet).
You don't really know what you are dealing with. But people who throw slurs, and never back them up, are a bit lame in my opinion.

Reading the likes of Janet Albrechtsen talking about indigenous children in Auatralia, (Geoff) would be a good place to start. Disagree with her of course, but perhaps when doing so, some of those PC edges might become a bit more rounded.
Roo
Really uncool to publicly post PMs, Damon.
Tanya
rolleyes.gif Christ on a bike. Does someone need a Netiquette 101 refresher course?
aquaman
Damon, with respect, in your last post you have reached a new low.

You owe Geoff an apology.
geoff
QUOTE(damon @ Apr 5 2008, 07:18 PM) *
And this is the link by Janet Albrechtsen that I failed to make yesterday.
Who's she? you may ask. Just some Australian commentator that you probably never heard of. Just like Geoff has never heard of Rod Liddle, most of us non Australian's have ever heard of her.
But if you want to be better than Jon or Geoff, I think that people like Albrechtsen should be read from time to time. To give you balance.
...
Reading the likes of Janet Albrechtsen talking about indigenous children in Auatralia, (Geoff) would be a good place to start. Disagree with her of course, but perhaps when doing so, some of those PC edges might become a bit more rounded.
Damon, I think the point you are trying to make is that one shouldn't be dogmatic; that one should consider the thoughts of others; and that one should form their own opinion after considering both sides of an argument. If that is your point, then I wholeheartedly agree. That's precisely the reason I read a lot of what you post and try to decipher it.

I'd never heard of Ms Albrechtsen before, but as its a rainy Sunday afternoon, I read a few of her pieces; starting with her critique of Michael Kirby. Thanks for pointing her out to me. By and large, I think she talks nonsense. See, for example, her piece on sexual harassment. However, she does paint an accurate picture of Paul Keating. You might also like to cast an eye over her discussion about changing one's opinion when presented with additional information.

Getting back to her discussion about Kirby's comments in Kartinyeri, I was wondering if you had read his decision before (or even after) you read her comments about it? If you're curious, it's here, and his judgement starts at paragraph 103. I'd be interested to hear what you think, and particularly if you think her criticism is warranted.


I did think the irony of this statement at the start of your post was delicious.
QUOTE
Jon, I think you lower the tone of the forum.
damon
QUOTE(Roo @ Apr 5 2008, 08:03 PM) *

Really uncool to publicly post PMs, Damon.

Yes Roo, I know it is. I was at a loss in how to reply to Geoff, (if at all), so I just made it public.
Why would I ''have a beef'' with geoff, who seems like a pretty decent chap? Well maybe you have never been publicaly called a racist, like Geoff so casually did to me.
If it happened to you, you might feel miffed about it too. But the more annoying thing was a lack of explaination. 'Racist' is one of the worst things you can call a person, and if it is untrue, (which I can assure you it isn't) then you might think some explaination was required. But this is about as much as I got:
QUOTE
It is true I've accused you of being racist where you've said things that clearly demonstrate racism.

For all the dozens of times (hundreds even), when I have tried to give some alternative opinions of issues to do with race and multi cultural societies, I hardly recall Geoff ever saying a word. So someone saying that ''out of the blue'' is somewhat startling. It could even be (and how would I know), that someone like Geoff (living where he does) regards anyone who is not 100% behind the Indigenous Sovereignty movements around the world, as an opinion that could be considered 'racist'. ''What, you don't support black rights?'' I could seen being asked with a look of horror.

Or maybe when I was talking with LefintheUS about Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, and John McWhorter.
Maybe what I was saying is considered as racist by some kind of anti-racists. I would imagine that is the case with Jon. Btw, surely calling someone a ''pollowcase wearing crossburner'' several times is more a breach of forum eitqute than posting a pm.
I mean, was geoff really upset by it? I doubt it. I'm sitting in my Indian friends bedroom using his computor as I write this. I just gave my other Indian housemate another driving lesson today. One sister of mine has a black partner who I get on with very well, the other married a guy whose parents came from India.
Being a ''racist'' I should have a problem with that I'd have thought.
But I don't in the slightest. I welcome it.

And as for Janet Albrechtsen, she is someone I would mostly disagree with, like someone in Britain like Amanda platell, or Rod Liddle, or that Canadian guy Mark Steyn.
Rather than boycott papers like the Sun and the Daily Mail, I think it's good to read them, (if you are on the left), to keep one centered. Because they often ''score some hits'' - which can stop a leftist person ending up like someone from The Respect party.
Obviously this might sound like a bit of a mad idea to many people. ''Read Melanie phillips? - what a preposterous idea.''

I'll read those Janet Albrechtsen links later. I can smell my Indian supper being cooked right now (which is payment for today's driving lesson) and it's distracting my thoughts.
geoff
Damon, I can't even remember where or why I called you a racist. If you have the particular post catalogued somewhere, then send me a PM and point me to it, and we can have a conversation offline about what you said, and why I must have thought it was racist. Because I'm sure nobody else is interested.
nevski
QUOTE(damon @ Apr 6 2008, 08:20 PM) *

'Racist' is one of the worst things you can call a person, and if it is untrue, (which I can assure you it isn't)

it isn't untrue that you are a racist?

thanks for clearing that up.
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Apr 6 2008, 08:20 PM) *

One sister of mine has a black partner who I get on with very well

Do you call him a picannie? You should! Clearly it's not an offensive term - you've said as much on here.
Try it and let us know what his reaction was...
damon
QUOTE(nevski @ Apr 7 2008, 07:56 AM) *

QUOTE(damon @ Apr 6 2008, 08:20 PM) *

'Racist' is one of the worst things you can call a person, and if it is untrue, (which I can assure you it isn't)



Oops, that should have read ''(which I can assure you it is)''.
Geoff that's fair enough, and I guess people are bored with it, (and that they would be pretty p'd off it was said to them).

Jon, it's a waste of time talking to you on a subject like this. Of course that word is offensive. I wasn't defending the use of that word, but saying that the context that it was used in was not as bad as some of his political opponent's have tried to show it. He has apologised, and rightly so. But I don't think he meant to cause offense.
Actually Jon's brittle attitude is part of the problem with race politics that I have tried to talk about.
Just the other day, on page 3 of the Guardian, a full page article on Johnson, said to the effect: - ''Johnson, who calls black people 'picanninies', and says that they have 'watermellon smiles'............'' - which is politically spinning the issue.

And Jon, why do you presume to know what the nature of my sister's partner is? He has his own mind, and doesn't fit to your sterotype, (at least one you perhaps imply, when you say: ''Try it and let us know what his reaction was...'')

Should he get angry or something?
keri
is this the ken livingstone thread?
Jon
QUOTE(damon @ Apr 7 2008, 11:43 AM) *

And Jon, why do you presume to know what the nature of my sister's partner is?

Nomad, we all know you can't read very well, but try to keep up - try to understand what's been written without adding extra context that isn't there, we've all read your mind-reading posts!

After your initial display of the understanding of Race Politics, why do you think nobody wants to discuss it with your here, and why people are inclined to think your a racist?
The fact that you live in a shared house with an Indian family and have a sister with a black partner proves what exactly?
Sarah lady
QUOTE(keri @ Apr 7 2008, 11:58 AM) *

is this the ken livingstone thread?


It was Keri, but the drunken village idiot turned it into yet another thread about him.

Still not sure if I can vote for Ken... but not inspired by the choices (and one of them certainly wouldn't be Boris).
keri
oh, i see. i just scroll on by the village idiot.
went cavassing for ken on saturday with the adorable tony benn. good day out.

well, make sure you vote at any rate, most importantly to stop the BNP from getting their much needed 5% stake in the london assembly.

* i return you to your previously pointless fucking around with the village idiot. *
Jon
QUOTE(keri @ Apr 7 2008, 12:56 PM) *

most importantly to stop the BNP from getting their much needed 5% stake in the london assembly.

I've not seen this issue before, are the BNP fielding a client or is this seperate to the Mayor election?
keri
not for mayor but could win assembly seats.

QUOTE
Analysts believe the BNP could make a breakthrough in May's election unless there is a big voter turnout. Last time London went to the polls the far-right party got 4.8% - just short of the 5% needed to get a member on the London assembly.


from the guardian
damon
Jon you really are a twat. Why would I call my sisters partner a fucking picaninnie?
QUOTE
Jon: Try it and let us know what his reaction was...

And keri, you have decided the time is right to jump in too have you?
What kept you? I have hardly ''spoken two sentences'' with keri the whole time I've been on the forum, and can't remember her ever giving an opinion on anything I have ever said. But her post above, (I think the first time she has ever adressed me) is just about a perfect example of what seems to be the BB forum way. She has to be about the seventh regular forum member who has introduced them selves that way.
It's a pretty piss poor way of going about things though isn't it?

And Sarah lady, I have no intention of turning threads into talking about me all the time. But I see the patern of isolating and group behavior by some members. It's almost like watching wildlife programme about pack animals hunting as a group. You started it Sarah lady soon after I joined the forum, and seem to have encouraged others. Fair enough, but it shows I was right about you all along too.

After ''my initial display'' in the race threads, you say Jon. I have no idea what you mean, for as far as I remember, you had almost nothing to say on them.

So Geoff, maybe you can see why I was disapointed in you. I thought you were better than to join in like that.

And wasn't that just the best ''first mention of a forum member'' post ever? (Keri's one).
Sarah lady
You have chosen to ignore all posts from: members who seem to think the world revolves around them, even when we're talking about the actual topic subject

QUOTE(keri @ Apr 7 2008, 12:56 PM) *

went cavassing for ken on saturday with the adorable tony benn. good day out.

well, make sure you vote at any rate, most importantly to stop the BNP from getting their much needed 5% stake in the london assembly.


Sounds like a great day with Tony Benn - how cool!

Will obviously make sure I vote (and I'm currently nagging Joe to make sure he's got himself registered!)
Off to google who the folks standing for London assembly are...

Not sure if its been posted before but this website has got all you'll ever need to know about the London elections...
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