I'd like to see a poll, myself. I know my own opinion of him has dropped, and some people I know have given up on him entirely (not just because of this).

Is it true, as I heard recently, that due to term limits he can never run for mayor again? Anybody know?

It's not true. There are no term limits. I think he's one of those people, a bit like Bill Clinton, who polarise opinion. I very much doubt that this has done him any long term harm.

My opinion of Ken Livingston has continued to get better and better.

I think his recent clarification was brilliant. That family of newspapers has some fucking nerve getting all high and mighty about alledged "racism"--though I think people who think it was this are seriously missing the point.

It's just nice to have someone say what he really feels for a change, and not just say what is in the prevailing political wind. This "it's just my job" argument is so lame I cannot believe people can say it with a straight face. Isn't that what those on trial at Nuremburg said? Why is it any more valid now than it was then?

Go Ken!

I've been reading this dialogue with great interest. I wish we had politicians like Ken Livingstone in the US.

Instead, my mayor is Kwame Kilpatrick, who is supected of having a lap dancer murdered and who is playing fast and loose with what few city resources are left. You guys are upset that Livingstone likened a reporter to a Nazi?

What a great name!An Irish Ghanaian?!

Nevski.Lets just say that he won't be getting many votes next time round in Stamford Hill ,Golders Green...etc.

Yeah go Ken.

Carry on insulting minority communities.Carry on your childish vendetta with half of the national press.Carry on forgetting that you and your girlfriend were quite happy to take the 'coin' of the Daily mail group when it suited you.Carry on threatening and manhandling your girlfriends when your pissed.What a hero.

The fact that Maria's opinion of him has gone up ,only strenghens my belief that he is a 'wrong un'.

i live in Stamford Hill. he'll get my vote.
But well done for knowing where the jewish communities are.

edited to add: the Jewish community wouldn't be voting for KL after last years visit from Muslim cleric Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi. by all accounts it was decided that



so i doubt his share of the vote will have altered much in stamford hill or Golders green.

firstly nice one all. this is a reasoned debate unlike that in the press over this issue. Graham though I think you are letting your political views cloud your judgement here. red ken has become somewhat meglomaniac.(and I loathe the mail and eve std.) Witness his telling workers to cross picket lines when the tubes were going on strike a while back cause he didnt agree with the strike (the old ken would never have done that) - then theres the Muslim Fundamentalist guy whose against everyone Ken has been campaigning for all those years.(Women,gays Jews etc). I remember Paul Weller saying that during red wedge he got well pissed off with the "Red Kens" cause they were more showbiz than the popstars. I think Ken is something like Michael Moore - std off good - ego taken over.

What about Billy Bragg for mayor.perfect. great for uncle bill's dotage.

There was a holocaust survivor who appeared on BBC News several times last week, a charming, sweet elderly woman with whom I just fell in love. She kept saying, 'I have always loved Ken Livingstone, and I'm sure he wouldn't do this. I'm sure he didn't say it -- or if he said it, surely he didn't mean it. He just wouldn't do that, because it would be so hurtful and so thoughtless to so many people. I'm sure he didn't do it.'

He did it.

I'm going out on a limb here, people -- anybody but Shagger Norris runs next time, they win, Ken loses. And maybe even Shagger could take him now, if he just had the sense not to threaten to eliminate the congestion charge. So, here's my prediction -- anybody else runs who agrees to keep the congestion charge, they win.

Ken Livingstone has had his go. It costs me $9.75 US to go to work every day and come home again. It costs a cleaner that much or more -- if they live further out. It costs a streetsweeper that much. If it hurts me, it's killing them.

I've had enough of his tube fare increases, his strikes, his hugs for anti-semites and his big mouth.

Thanks for the congestion charge, Ken. Now go get a real job.

by my calculation, if you buy a monthly pass its $6.54 per day for a zone 1-3 travelcard, allowing you to use as much public transort as you want 7 days a week. (ex rate $1.91 = £1)

Mata, i guess you live in zone 4 then? or buy a ticket daily?

if you have the means to get a 1 year zone 1 - 3 travelcard, you would be paying the equivalent of £2.74 per day... $5.23.

of course i know this makes the assumption that you use public transport every day, which many do not, but its important that people know there are cheaper options for regular travellers. in fact, if you were to buy a 7 day zone 1-3 travelcard and only use it 5 days a week, it would cost you $9.15 a day. put the 60 cents towards a nice cup of coffee at £2.35 a go....

your statement also assumes that all cleaners work in zone 1 or have to travel through zone 1 to get to work, and live outside zone 1. which they obviously don't!

personally i say extend the congestion charge zone, to help finance public transport, and keep us from further ticket price rises.

<nevski steps off the pro- london public transport stage>

As for Ken... For all his faults, No-one has yet managed to grab londoners attention in the same way he has.. even if sometimes it's for the wrong reasons. I can't say for sure i will vote KL next time round, but this latest episode hasn't affected my opinion of him greatly. i already new he had an abrasive manner for dealing with doorsteppers,
and i think that's all i can take from this latest episode.

Mata

The simple fact is that no one will be able to maintain transport levels and lower fairs. The lib dems and Tories stood on a promise not to extend the congestion charge zone, as Ken plans to do. The extension will bring in more income. They also opposed raising the council tax precept. Without the extra income from both of those sources, it would mean a reduction of bus services, train services or an even greater increase in fairs - which would you prefer? The improvements in the busses have been another one of the great achivements of the Livingstone mayoralty - only possible because he has been willing to spend the money on the only part of the transport system currently capable of expanding capacity.

you might also remember that strikes on the underground were actually worse in the run up to the Mayor being given control of the Underground. There have been, what... three, four days of strikes in the five years of Ken's term.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that Ken called the strikes. I'm not sure where you got that from. They were called by the RMT, not Ken.

If you don't like the fact that your tube fair costs a lot in dollars I think you need to talk to the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury, who have depreciated the dollar to record lows, rather than Ken, who has very little effect on the price of the dollar.

I guess you don't like his style of doing things, his multiculturalism and the fact that he's left-wing rather than any of his concrete policies.

Very strange world we live in if insulting a journalist does more damage to him than hosting al-Qaradawi.

Ken's congestion charge has only raised just over half of the projected income since it started.70 million instead of the estimated £130 million.The irony is that central London traffic (private or public) is not any qiucker now that it was before the congestion charge.The ring roads are gridlocked because of it,and the benifits of less car traffic that the congestion charge should have brought,is nullified by all the roads being clogged up with thousands of extra (most empty) buses.You couldn't make it up.

Add to that all the thousands of shops and small businesses that have been killed off because of the charge.The only people that the congestion charge had benifited are the Cabbies (now taking home £50k plus a year in London) and the car hateing non-drivers who can now swan around the mile upon mile of bus lanes in the back of one of those cabs -stand up Kenneth! Oh, It also benifits you if you want to take a bus outside of rush hours.You now have the choice of any of 40 empty seats and you can have a nice chat with a unstressed bus driver.The fact that car/van/lorry gridlock cost us Billions each year(London hundreds of millions),doesn't seem to enter the equation regarding peoples views of the congestion charge.

Ken estimates that central london traffic has been reduced by 20%.It is also estimated elsewhere that £20% of all people driving in London at any given time are 'illegal' ..ie.No tax/insurance/MOT /lisence...etc. Why not instead JUST having a major clampdown on that.With computer technology/micro chips/tax disc recording etc.But that would be too easy(and cheap).Instead we have a hugely expensive congestion system, vastly over maned bus services,and billions being erroded from the economy because of small business closure and through gridlocked roads each year.

Ken may be many things,but he's not stupid.If i worked in central london,hated cars,could not drive a car,could claim unlimited travel expenses..etc.I would do the same a him.I would turn half of the already congested roads into bus lanes,i would allow Cab drivers to use these lanes.i would then spend £5k a year swanning around London in comfort and speed in the back of one of those cabs.I would say 'sod the cars/lorries/vans and the misery my policies are having to the vast majority of Londoners(both through quality of life and council tax..etc).I would be a case of ('i'm all right jack,sod the rest).As i said,me and Ken are not that different.

KLF, how can I take your answer seriously if you even contradict yourself in the space of one post. You said:

The irony is that central London traffic (private or public) is not any qiucker now that it was before the congestion charge

But the only evidence you give on the traffic in central london is:

Ken estimates that central london traffic has been reduced by 20%.

Your points are just conjecture.

That's why I'm not worried about this. The people who attack ken are the samepeople who don't like his politics. I'm just happy to say that I do like his politics, as do most Londoners.

Hello Graham. Slip of pen (so to speak).


First part should have read 'The irony is that London traffic' rather than 'the irony is that central London traffic.

Anyway,it was Ken's estimate that traffic had fallen 20%.Not mine.

Know that we've cleared that up. Is there any parts of my previous post that you want to debate or to dispute ?

i would like you to provide evidence that most of the extra busses in london are 'mostly empty'.

5,400,000 bus journeys take place EVERY DAY in london. there are 6,500 busses working daily.

assuming each bus goes on the route 15 times a day (thats a high estimate considering most route are at least an hour long), the average number of passengers on a bus at any one time is 55.

that isn't nearly empty, is it?

Mata, your statements are more a reflection of the weak dollar compared to the pound than they are about the cost of transport in London. You know that perfectly well. Frankly, for a huge city I think the public transport system is a bargain.

And I really don't think you are seriously saying that the reason a cleaner can barely afford to live in the city is b/c of Ken Livingstone?

I don't care what one Holocaust survivor said. I'm sorry she was offended, but people get offended. If you try to never offend anyone, you will fail. And rightly so.

I still love Ken. He shows he is able to think about something other than things that are strictly black and white. The world isn't that way--it's made of shades of gray, in spite of what political discourse seems to try to say these days, not to mention most peoples' pathetic attempts at "discourse." According to a BBC poll, support for Ken re: not apologizing was running at approx 67%. They're all anti-semites? Get real.

But then again, I can't criticize Israel's politics b/c if I do that means I'm antisemitic. Apparently Isreal is the one country in the world that can do no wrong, whatever it does. Neat trick.

PS--apparently there are empty buses all over London, Nevs? I'm off to London tomorrow. This must be a new development since all the other times I've been there. I'm eagerly looking forward to getting on a not completely packed full bus for once--it'll be a first!

I think we must distiguish between rush hours in central London (Bus passangers totally packed in like sardines) and the majority of Londons buses travelling in thewhole of london outside of peak times.


Nevski.Two things to question about you interpretaion of 'figures'.

1.I presume they were taken from a Livingstone funded organisation .TFL or sum such public transport promoting website.So i'm not sure we can trust that the figures are accurate.

2.You conclusion relies on everybody completing the whole bus route without getting on or off the bus in between??

they are the figures used to pay the private companies who run londons bus service, so i should think they are accurate. otherwise arriva's accountants would be on the phone pretty sharpish.

of course you are right, not everyone commutes the whole bus route, but many people do ride substantial distances on the bus.

anyway, my anecdotal evidence, as a regular bus user (which i know you are not, so you can't disagree) is that busses are not nearly empty all the time.

Certainly, many bus journeys take place at certain times of day. thats obvious. but they PUT MORE BUSSES ON AT THAT TIME, and less on at off peak times, just look at your local bus stop timetable. busses every 5 minutes 7-9AM every 10-12 minutes during the day. Yers, they worked out they don't need so many busses off peak. clever blighters.

So buses run every 5 minutes between 7-9pm ?

Presuming that each bus-stop has an average of 5 routes going past.That means that a bus comes along every 60 seconds.No wonder the roads are now at a vertual standstill between those times.Even if buses leave the depot 10 minutes apart, they invariably meet up after 30 minutes or so.So just imagine the jams with buses arriving every 60 seconds ?

The biggest 'convoy' of buses on a high street that i've seen recently is 9,although to see 4 or 5 buses nose to tail on the road is now common place.As a result bus users are not getting to work any quicker because even though they wait less time for a bus,this benifit is nullified by the sheer number of buses slowing them down.Car users are far worse off.

yes, car users are far worse off. because cars are an inefficient way of moving lots of people round a restricted amount of space,when theres one person in a car, particularly.

most us stops have 3-5 buses stopping at them, excpt for central london.

you want to stop the convoys of busses? make more car free areas! More bus lanes please ken.

your choice to drive your car is entirely up to you. just think on though, if everyone else thought like you, No one would get anywhere. you should be thankfull of the busses, not dissing them.

What are you talking about Nevski ?

Reduce the number of unnecessary buses,scrap bus lanes,improve traffic light fazing,get illegal motorists off the road,free up parking by eliminating all unnecessary yellow lines,scrap traffic calming on all but resident/school areas.THAT will free up traffic a LOT more than swamping the roads with congestion causing public transport.People should have the right to a decent reliable bus service.People should also have the right to use their car.No form of transport should take priority over any other.ALL forms of transport should be able run freely,its not rocket science.Livingstone is costing London companies hundreds of millions of pounds by swamping London with to many buses and too many bus lanes.The extra buses themselves cost hundreds of millions to produce and hundreds of millions more to run and maintain.Council tax has nearly doubled in London since Labour came to power and not ONE service has improved.When Labour came to power 8 years ago,my council tax was £680,its now £1175. Value for money ??? My Arse.

Nevski you admit car drivers are worse off ? So by definition you must admit that Lorry drivers and delivery drivers are also worse off.It costs £2 billion a year to the economy for companies that use the roads to be stuck in congestion and be 'worse off'.

The current London transport innitative is just expensive,counter productive,condesending and niave.

You want to make transport better by picking on and discriminating against certain groups?(ie car users)

Would you then agree with a policy of picking on and discriminating against certain groups in order to make immigration control better ?

What are you talking about Nevski ?

Reduce the number of unnecessary buses,scrap bus lanes,improve traffic light fazing,get illegal motorists off the road,free up parking by eliminating all unnecessary yellow lines,scrap traffic calming on all but residential/school areas.THAT will free up traffic a LOT more than swamping the roads with congestion causing public transport.People should have the right to a decent reliable bus service.People should also have the right to use their car.No form of transport should take priority over any other.ALL forms of transport should be able run freely,its not rocket science.Livingstone is costing London companies hundreds of millions of pounds by swamping London with to many buses and too many bus lanes.The extra buses themselves cost hundreds of millions to produce and hundreds of millions more to run and maintain.Council tax has nearly doubled in London since Labour came to power and not ONE service has improved.When Labour came to power 8 years ago,my council tax was £680,its now £1175. Value for money ??? My Arse.

don't be an arse.

pick on selfish people who fill our roads with their individual tin boxes, when there is no need to. its not a policy that can be likened to immigration.

Those 'selfish' people PAY for public transport and the roads they use through TAX.Each car owner pays over £2000 in tax to run a car each year.It would be totally unjust if the government didn't ensure roads were kept free flowing for them to use their cars.To DISCRIMINATE against them after they have contributed so much to the ecomony is discrace.

KLF scores again, for the funniest thing thread:

in 2001 38Bn was raised in income on vehicle taxation. only 7bn of that was spent on roads and public transport.

the majority of the tax is not being spent on public transport, KLF.

the argument you ought to be having is Why isnt the tax i pay to drive my selfish-mobile being used to improve public transport, so i don't need my selfish-mobile anymore....

Leontien, been to London recently ?

i think the concept that swamping the roads with congestion causes public transport was what tickled her.

Last time I was in London, last year May I think. As a matter of fact I owe a lot to london public transport. It got me from brixton to gatwick at 4am, something even our own much praised public transport system can't achieve...

you mean you cant get a bus from your house to gatwick?! outrageous!

If you cut the road space in half (by painting bus lanes everywhere) DOES THAT NOT CAUSE CONGESTION to cars ? Made worse when the bus lanes merge back into the road on single lane roads.Also Kens bendy-buses have to have more than 20 people on board at ALL times in order to justify them being on the road,because they take up as much space as 7 cars.

NO .What i would say is that all my car/petrol tax has paid for ALL the public transport YOU are using (very selfish of me),and there is still 31Billion left over. How about trying to make life easier for the car user from that surplus of 31Billion that we have given the government.Is that unreasonable.?

When you think that car users are selfish,just remember that the bus or train you are using wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the fact that us car users have payed for it.I have no trouble with the fact that my car taxes fund all public transport.What i resent is that we ourselves are then being blackmailed into use it (by the deliberate slowing and obstruction of the roads).

Um....does this mean you think an average car in London has 2.86 persons in it??? I think not...


Our public transport shuts down from 1 am to 6 am.

bendy busses carry about 150 people at capacity. and if you try the 73 anytime, it carries about 2/3rd of that number regularly. 7 cars, generally in london carry between 7 and 14 people, you count the next 7 cars to go past your window. there won't be 20 people in total.

you tell me whos causing congestion.

incidentally, the people who use the 73 bendybus are up in arms about it, they reckon things were better with the routemasters, because there are now Less busses on route than there used to be.

edited to make leontiens later post redundant, and because i do not want to be associated with KLF in any way.

a splash of KLFitis there....

How about cars with 3 people on board ,being allowed to use bus lanes.?? Now add that to my 'intergrated transport policy' and we are really starting to get somewhere.

i am desperately trying to find figures that show that public trnsport is paid for in its entirity by other road users. but i can't find that information.

that 7Bn includes road repairs androad building btw, its not just public transport!

There's no way this can be enforced and you know it.
We had a 'carpool lane' in Holland: total flop. Don't go there.

But they take up twice the roadspace.So if there is anymore than half the amount of bendy's as there were routemasters,that in itself will create more congestion.What idiot thought that taking up twice the roadspace to carry the same amount of people was a clever idea ?

routemasters don't have disabled access

routemasters don't have disabled access

So we pay for all your public transport,roads,road repairs,and still there's plenty of change to go to the government for social causes.(how bloody selfish of us).

they run buses with larger capacity (bendy buses) less often, so people wait at the bus stop longer, that's why passengers complain! so they dont take up twice the road space, because there is less of them.

oh, so what happens to the price i pay for a ticket, does that just magic away?

no i don't think it does, does it.

A 'bendy' is about 18 meters long... therefore an average car in london is 2.6 meters long i.e 0.9 meter shorter than a 'smartcar'... obviously they'll be driving bumper to bumper at all times

with 3 people each in these miraculous tiny london cars it's no wonder the occupants are getting concerned about being overcrowded.