Full Version: Chavez
I can't help noticing that some of youse here are well read, clued up and lovely. My girlfriends family are from Venezuela and we're desperate to believe that Chavez is the gorgeous Bolivarian that he claims to be. Can anyone help us out here?
The Americans and big business within Venezuela don't like him so he is obviously doing something right.
my understanding is that he's not been perfect (who is) and he came into power with only a very modest programme of reform. The opposition came because of the fact that Chavez has moved power away from the oligarchy that have traditionally run Venezuela. The general (oil) strike has forced Chavez to move closer to his contituency and call for mobilisation of the poor in Venezuela. He will then fail or succeed to the extent that he can address the needs of the Venezuelan poor.
Most up to date news so far I think.
Seems all very anti working class on Chavez part until you get to the final paragraph.
Venezuela fires more oil workers
Associated Press
Caracas — The Venezeulan government has fired 828 more employees from the state oil monopoly for participating in a two-month illegal strike aimed at ousting President Hugo Chavez, the company said Thursday.
The latest dismissals brought the total number dismissed to 17,871 — almost half the 38,000-member workforce at Petroleos de Venezuela S.A., a PDVSA spokesman said.
Most PDVSA workers, including management, joined the national strike to demand Chavez's resignation or early elections.
The stoppage paralyzed the world's fifth largest oil industry and cost Venezuela some $6-billion US. But the strike fizzled last month without achieving its goal.
Despite the reduced personnel, the government says it has restored crude oil production to prestrike levels of more than three million barrels a day. Fired executives say output is 2.4 million barrels a day.
Mr. Chavez has rejected pressure from the opposition and foreign governments to reincorporate the fired workers, saying they cannot be trusted to avoid illegal strikes in future. Many also participated in an April, 2002, walkout that helped trigger a short-lived coup.
The government also says it is taking advantage of the strike to reorganize PDVSA, reduce excess bureaucracy and increase government control over the company.
The strike was supported by the country's economic elite and many in the middle class who fear plans by Mr. Chavez to distribute more of Venezuela's wealth among its poor majority.
Seems all very anti working class on Chavez part until you get to the final paragraph.
Venezuela fires more oil workers
Associated Press
Caracas — The Venezeulan government has fired 828 more employees from the state oil monopoly for participating in a two-month illegal strike aimed at ousting President Hugo Chavez, the company said Thursday.
The latest dismissals brought the total number dismissed to 17,871 — almost half the 38,000-member workforce at Petroleos de Venezuela S.A., a PDVSA spokesman said.
Most PDVSA workers, including management, joined the national strike to demand Chavez's resignation or early elections.
The stoppage paralyzed the world's fifth largest oil industry and cost Venezuela some $6-billion US. But the strike fizzled last month without achieving its goal.
Despite the reduced personnel, the government says it has restored crude oil production to prestrike levels of more than three million barrels a day. Fired executives say output is 2.4 million barrels a day.
Mr. Chavez has rejected pressure from the opposition and foreign governments to reincorporate the fired workers, saying they cannot be trusted to avoid illegal strikes in future. Many also participated in an April, 2002, walkout that helped trigger a short-lived coup.
The government also says it is taking advantage of the strike to reorganize PDVSA, reduce excess bureaucracy and increase government control over the company.
The strike was supported by the country's economic elite and many in the middle class who fear plans by Mr. Chavez to distribute more of Venezuela's wealth among its poor majority.
More on Hugo Here!
From the information we have at present I see absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.
It would appear that a poor nation, rich in mineral wealth and thus far ripped off mercilessly by the wealthy developed world, has decided to make a spot of dosh for themselves.
Unless huge amounts of evidence emerges to show that he's a very bad man, like Bush or Blair, I see no reason at present to label Chavez rogue dictator.
QUOTE
The tax paid by foreign oil companies operating in Venezuela will be almost doubled, says President Hugo Chavez.
On his weekly television programme Hello President, Mr Chavez said a new "extraction tax" of 33% would replace the current oil royalty of 17%.
He said the levy would raise at least $885m a year, some of which would be used to fund a housing programme.
On his weekly television programme Hello President, Mr Chavez said a new "extraction tax" of 33% would replace the current oil royalty of 17%.
He said the levy would raise at least $885m a year, some of which would be used to fund a housing programme.
From the information we have at present I see absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.
It would appear that a poor nation, rich in mineral wealth and thus far ripped off mercilessly by the wealthy developed world, has decided to make a spot of dosh for themselves.
Unless huge amounts of evidence emerges to show that he's a very bad man, like Bush or Blair, I see no reason at present to label Chavez rogue dictator.
QUOTE
Chávez is a threat because he offers the alternative of a decent society
Venezuela's president is using oil revenues to liberate the poor - no wonder his enemies want to overthrow him
By John Pilger
05/13/06 "The Guardian" -- -- I have spent the past three weeks filming in the hillside barrios of Caracas, in streets and breeze-block houses that defy gravity and torrential rain and emerge at night like fireflies in the fog. Caracas is said to be one of the world's toughest cities, yet I have known no fear; the poorest have welcomed my colleagues and me with a warmth characteristic of ordinary Venezuelans but also with the unmistakable confidence of a people who know that change is possible and who, in their everyday lives, are reclaiming noble concepts long emptied of their meaning in the west: "reform", "popular democracy", "equity", "social justice" and, yes, "freedom".
The other night, in a room bare except for a single fluorescent tube, I heard these words spoken by the likes of Ana Lucia Fernandez, aged 86, Celedonia Oviedo, aged 74, and Mavis Mendez, aged 95. A mere 33-year-old, Sonia Alvarez, had come with her two young children. Until about a year ago, none of them could read and write; now they are studying mathematics. For the first time in its modern era, Venezuela has almost 100% literacy.
This achievement is due to a national programme, called Mision Robinson, designed for adults and teenagers previously denied an education because of poverty. Mision Ribas is giving everyone a secondary school education, called a bachillerato. (The names Robinson and Ribas refer to Venezuelan independence leaders from the 19th century.) Named, like much else here, after the great liberator Simon Bolivar, "Bolivarian", or people's, universities have opened, introducing, as one parent told me, "treasures of the mind, history and music and art, we barely knew existed". Under Hugo Chávez, Venezuela is the first major oil producer to use its oil revenue to liberate the poor.
Mavis Mendez has seen, in her 95 years, a parade of governments preside over the theft of tens of billions of dollars in oil spoils, much of it flown to Miami, together with the steepest descent into poverty ever known in Latin America; from 18% in 1980 to 65% in 1995, three years before Chávez was elected. "We didn't matter in a human sense," she said. "We lived and died without real education and running water, and food we couldn't afford. When we fell ill, the weakest died. In the east of the city, where the mansions are, we were invisible, or we were feared. Now I can read and write my name, and so much more; and whatever the rich and their media say, we have planted the seeds of true democracy, and I am full of joy that I have lived to witness it."
Latin American governments often give their regimes a new sense of legitimacy by holding a constituent assembly that drafts a new constitution. When he was elected in 1998, Chávez used this brilliantly to decentralise, to give the impoverished grassroots power they had never known and to begin to dismantle a corrupt political superstructure as a prerequisite to changing the direction of the economy. His setting-up of misions as a means of bypassing saboteurs in the old, corrupt bureaucracy was typical of the extraordinary political and social imagination that is changing Venezuela peacefully. This is his "Bolivarian revolution", which, at this stage, is not dissimilar to the post-war European social democracies.
Chávez, a former army major, was anxious to prove he was not yet another military "strongman". He promised that his every move would be subject to the will of the people. In his first year as president in 1999, he held an unprecedented number of votes: a referendum on whether or not people wanted a new constituent assembly; elections for the assembly; a second referendum ratifying the new constitution - 71% of the people approved each of the 396 articles that gave Mavis and Celedonia and Ana Lucia, and their children and grandchildren, unheard-of freedoms, such as Article 123, which for the first time recognised the human rights of mixed-race and black people, of whom Chávez is one. "The indigenous peoples," it says, "have the right to maintain their own economic practices, based on reciprocity, solidarity and exchange ... and to define their priorities ... " The little red book of the Venezuelan constitution became a bestseller on the streets. Nora Hernandez, a community worker in Petare barrio, took me to her local state-run supermarket, which is funded entirely by oil revenue and where prices are up to half those in the commercial chains. Proudly, she showed me articles of the constitution written on the backs of soap-powder packets. "We can never go back," she said.
In La Vega barrio, I listened to a nurse, Mariella Machado, a big round black woman of 45 with a wonderfully wicked laugh, stand and speak at an urban land council on subjects ranging from homelessness to the Iraq war. That day, they were launching Mision Madres de Barrio, a programme aimed specifically at poverty among single mothers. Under the constitution, women have the right to be paid as carers, and can borrow from a special women's bank. From next month, the poorest housewives will get about Ł120 a month. It is not surprising that Chávez has now won eight elections and referendums in eight years, each time increasing his majority, a world record. He is the most popular head of state in the western hemisphere, probably in the world. That is why he survived, amazingly, a Washington-backed coup in 2002. Mariella and Celedonia and Nora and hundreds of thousands of others came down from the barrios and demanded that the army remain loyal. "The people rescued me," Chávez told me. "They did it with all the media against me, preventing even the basic facts of what had happened. For popular democracy in heroic action, I suggest you need look no further."
The venomous attacks on Chávez, who arrives in London tomorrow, have begun and resemble uncannily those of the privately owned Venezuelan television and press, which called for the elected government to be overthrown. Fact-deprived attacks on Chávez in the Times and the Financial Times this week, each with that peculiar malice reserved for true dissenters from Thatcher's and Blair's one true way, follow a travesty of journalism on Channel 4 News last month, which effectively accused the Venezuelan president of plotting to make nuclear weapons with Iran, an absurd fantasy. The reporter sneered at policies to eradicate poverty and presented Chávez as a sinister buffoon, while Donald Rumsfeld was allowed to liken him to Hitler, unchallenged. In contrast, Tony Blair, a patrician with no equivalent democratic record, having been elected by a fifth of those eligible to vote and having caused the violent death of tens of thousands of Iraqis, is allowed to continue spinning his truly absurd political survival tale.
Chávez is, of course, a threat, especially to the United States. Like the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, who based their revolution on the English co-operative moment, and the moderate Allende in Chile, he offers the threat of an alternative way of developing a decent society: in other words, the threat of a good example in a continent where the majority of humanity has long suffered a Washington-designed peonage. In the US media in the 1980s, the "threat" of tiny Nicaragua was seriously debated until it was crushed. Venezuela is clearly being "softened up" for something similar. A US army publication, Doctrine for Asymmetric War against Venezuela, describes Chávez and the Bolivarian revolution as the "largest threat since the Soviet Union and Communism". When I said to Chávez that the US historically had had its way in Latin America, he replied: "Yes, and my assassination would come as no surprise. But the empire is in trouble, and the people of Venezuela will resist an attack. We ask only for the support of all true democrats."
John Pilger's new book, Freedom Next Time , is published next month by Bantam Press www.johnpilger.com
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
Venezuela's president is using oil revenues to liberate the poor - no wonder his enemies want to overthrow him
By John Pilger
05/13/06 "The Guardian" -- -- I have spent the past three weeks filming in the hillside barrios of Caracas, in streets and breeze-block houses that defy gravity and torrential rain and emerge at night like fireflies in the fog. Caracas is said to be one of the world's toughest cities, yet I have known no fear; the poorest have welcomed my colleagues and me with a warmth characteristic of ordinary Venezuelans but also with the unmistakable confidence of a people who know that change is possible and who, in their everyday lives, are reclaiming noble concepts long emptied of their meaning in the west: "reform", "popular democracy", "equity", "social justice" and, yes, "freedom".
The other night, in a room bare except for a single fluorescent tube, I heard these words spoken by the likes of Ana Lucia Fernandez, aged 86, Celedonia Oviedo, aged 74, and Mavis Mendez, aged 95. A mere 33-year-old, Sonia Alvarez, had come with her two young children. Until about a year ago, none of them could read and write; now they are studying mathematics. For the first time in its modern era, Venezuela has almost 100% literacy.
This achievement is due to a national programme, called Mision Robinson, designed for adults and teenagers previously denied an education because of poverty. Mision Ribas is giving everyone a secondary school education, called a bachillerato. (The names Robinson and Ribas refer to Venezuelan independence leaders from the 19th century.) Named, like much else here, after the great liberator Simon Bolivar, "Bolivarian", or people's, universities have opened, introducing, as one parent told me, "treasures of the mind, history and music and art, we barely knew existed". Under Hugo Chávez, Venezuela is the first major oil producer to use its oil revenue to liberate the poor.
Mavis Mendez has seen, in her 95 years, a parade of governments preside over the theft of tens of billions of dollars in oil spoils, much of it flown to Miami, together with the steepest descent into poverty ever known in Latin America; from 18% in 1980 to 65% in 1995, three years before Chávez was elected. "We didn't matter in a human sense," she said. "We lived and died without real education and running water, and food we couldn't afford. When we fell ill, the weakest died. In the east of the city, where the mansions are, we were invisible, or we were feared. Now I can read and write my name, and so much more; and whatever the rich and their media say, we have planted the seeds of true democracy, and I am full of joy that I have lived to witness it."
Latin American governments often give their regimes a new sense of legitimacy by holding a constituent assembly that drafts a new constitution. When he was elected in 1998, Chávez used this brilliantly to decentralise, to give the impoverished grassroots power they had never known and to begin to dismantle a corrupt political superstructure as a prerequisite to changing the direction of the economy. His setting-up of misions as a means of bypassing saboteurs in the old, corrupt bureaucracy was typical of the extraordinary political and social imagination that is changing Venezuela peacefully. This is his "Bolivarian revolution", which, at this stage, is not dissimilar to the post-war European social democracies.
Chávez, a former army major, was anxious to prove he was not yet another military "strongman". He promised that his every move would be subject to the will of the people. In his first year as president in 1999, he held an unprecedented number of votes: a referendum on whether or not people wanted a new constituent assembly; elections for the assembly; a second referendum ratifying the new constitution - 71% of the people approved each of the 396 articles that gave Mavis and Celedonia and Ana Lucia, and their children and grandchildren, unheard-of freedoms, such as Article 123, which for the first time recognised the human rights of mixed-race and black people, of whom Chávez is one. "The indigenous peoples," it says, "have the right to maintain their own economic practices, based on reciprocity, solidarity and exchange ... and to define their priorities ... " The little red book of the Venezuelan constitution became a bestseller on the streets. Nora Hernandez, a community worker in Petare barrio, took me to her local state-run supermarket, which is funded entirely by oil revenue and where prices are up to half those in the commercial chains. Proudly, she showed me articles of the constitution written on the backs of soap-powder packets. "We can never go back," she said.
In La Vega barrio, I listened to a nurse, Mariella Machado, a big round black woman of 45 with a wonderfully wicked laugh, stand and speak at an urban land council on subjects ranging from homelessness to the Iraq war. That day, they were launching Mision Madres de Barrio, a programme aimed specifically at poverty among single mothers. Under the constitution, women have the right to be paid as carers, and can borrow from a special women's bank. From next month, the poorest housewives will get about Ł120 a month. It is not surprising that Chávez has now won eight elections and referendums in eight years, each time increasing his majority, a world record. He is the most popular head of state in the western hemisphere, probably in the world. That is why he survived, amazingly, a Washington-backed coup in 2002. Mariella and Celedonia and Nora and hundreds of thousands of others came down from the barrios and demanded that the army remain loyal. "The people rescued me," Chávez told me. "They did it with all the media against me, preventing even the basic facts of what had happened. For popular democracy in heroic action, I suggest you need look no further."
The venomous attacks on Chávez, who arrives in London tomorrow, have begun and resemble uncannily those of the privately owned Venezuelan television and press, which called for the elected government to be overthrown. Fact-deprived attacks on Chávez in the Times and the Financial Times this week, each with that peculiar malice reserved for true dissenters from Thatcher's and Blair's one true way, follow a travesty of journalism on Channel 4 News last month, which effectively accused the Venezuelan president of plotting to make nuclear weapons with Iran, an absurd fantasy. The reporter sneered at policies to eradicate poverty and presented Chávez as a sinister buffoon, while Donald Rumsfeld was allowed to liken him to Hitler, unchallenged. In contrast, Tony Blair, a patrician with no equivalent democratic record, having been elected by a fifth of those eligible to vote and having caused the violent death of tens of thousands of Iraqis, is allowed to continue spinning his truly absurd political survival tale.
Chávez is, of course, a threat, especially to the United States. Like the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, who based their revolution on the English co-operative moment, and the moderate Allende in Chile, he offers the threat of an alternative way of developing a decent society: in other words, the threat of a good example in a continent where the majority of humanity has long suffered a Washington-designed peonage. In the US media in the 1980s, the "threat" of tiny Nicaragua was seriously debated until it was crushed. Venezuela is clearly being "softened up" for something similar. A US army publication, Doctrine for Asymmetric War against Venezuela, describes Chávez and the Bolivarian revolution as the "largest threat since the Soviet Union and Communism". When I said to Chávez that the US historically had had its way in Latin America, he replied: "Yes, and my assassination would come as no surprise. But the empire is in trouble, and the people of Venezuela will resist an attack. We ask only for the support of all true democrats."
John Pilger's new book, Freedom Next Time , is published next month by Bantam Press www.johnpilger.com
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
Chavez in the UK yesterday. He met Ken, but refused to meet Blair - http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1774993,00.html
I was there yesterday. He gave an amazing speech that lasted hours. Talked about all kinds of things from the need for real change to tackle climate change, he denounced sexism and racism, he talked about how dangerous it would be if the US attacked Iran, about his days of talking to Clinton "You could talk to Clinton - you don't need to agree on everything to talk to someone and with Clinton you could talk."
He argued that socialism must be "social" that any attempt to be doctrinaire was doomed to failure and that that had happened in Russia and Eastern Europe in his opinion. I was just waiting to hear him say that we needed a socialism of the heart...
He argued that socialism must be "social" that any attempt to be doctrinaire was doomed to failure and that that had happened in Russia and Eastern Europe in his opinion. I was just waiting to hear him say that we needed a socialism of the heart...
Looking at the first page of the BBC's latest news coverage of Chavez.Its no wonder that Kennith has invited him over and given him the red carpet treatment.Its also no wonder that the likes Martyn and Pete have leaped to his defense.He seems like a rabid anti-American, Anti-Western, Anti-Capitalist, power hungry 'loose cannon'.As i said,thats hero-worship material for Livingstone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1925236.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4695482.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4656906.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4502272.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4188578.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4705740.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4391166.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4336169.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/story/...0317_bush.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/story/...romanning.shtml
Unless its aginst Americans or Britains,of course.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1925236.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4695482.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4656906.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4502272.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4188578.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4705740.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4391166.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4336169.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/story/...0317_bush.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/story/...romanning.shtml
QUOTE
Graham.....he denounced racism
Unless its aginst Americans or Britains,of course.
He spent ages in the speech lauding the great things that have come from Britain and he talked about his admiration for great Americans like Washington.
He's given cheep subsidised oil to poor people in various US states.
I see that you don't let a fact stand in the way of a wild baseless accusation KLF.
He's given cheep subsidised oil to poor people in various US states.
I see that you don't let a fact stand in the way of a wild baseless accusation KLF.
I was mearly using FACTS from his comments on the news websites,to make a reasoned judgement that he hates America.From his banning of Christain US citizens .To his revoking of rights for US Embassy staff.To his banning of things he considers 'American' in style or culture.What would you say if Blair started banning everything that was Muslim in culture???
He seems like a typical Neo-Communist dreamer.How many of them have we seen that in the past.He also seems to be spoiling for a fight with America and the West,and is spending hundreds of millions of dollars,on arms and weaponry ,in the process.His intentions may be noble.But they are naive,and his desire for conflict and power are worrying traits.
It proves what a tollerant nation were are, they will still allow Chavez into the country,and allow our Mayor to wine and dine him,after the outragous comments and discracfull accussations he has spoken about our prime Minister in the very recent past.
He seems like a typical Neo-Communist dreamer.How many of them have we seen that in the past.He also seems to be spoiling for a fight with America and the West,and is spending hundreds of millions of dollars,on arms and weaponry ,in the process.His intentions may be noble.But they are naive,and his desire for conflict and power are worrying traits.
It proves what a tollerant nation were are, they will still allow Chavez into the country,and allow our Mayor to wine and dine him,after the outragous comments and discracfull accussations he has spoken about our prime Minister in the very recent past.
Incidentally there is a great David Rovics song about Chavez - go here and then search for Chavez:
http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/defa...0&content=music
David says (and he's never one to get his words much wrong): "He's too free market for the communists. He's too authoritarian for the anarchists. He's too military for the pacifists. Whatever. He's also arguably the most radical elected leader of a national government on the planet today."
http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/defa...0&content=music
David says (and he's never one to get his words much wrong): "He's too free market for the communists. He's too authoritarian for the anarchists. He's too military for the pacifists. Whatever. He's also arguably the most radical elected leader of a national government on the planet today."
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 10:12 AM) 
I was mearly using FACTS from his comments on the news websites,to make a reasoned judgement that he hates America.From his banning of Christain US citizens .To his revoking of rights for US Embassy staff.To his banning of things he considers 'American' in style or culture.What would you say if Blair started banning everything that was Muslim in culture???
He seems like a typical Neo-Communist dreamer.How many of them have we seen that in the past.He also seems to be spoiling for a fight with America and the West,and is spending hundreds of millions of dollars,on arms and weaponry ,in the process.His intentions may be noble.But they are naive,and his desire for conflict and power are worrying traits.
It proves what a tollerant nation were are, they will still allow Chavez into the country,and allow our Mayor to wine and dine him,after the outragous comments and discracfull accussations he has spoken about our prime Minister in the very recent past.
WRONG - AGAIN. He's a christian. His remarks referred to Pat Robertson and his supporters who met with the people behind the coup attempt and then called for Chavez to be assassinated.
The US embassy staff were involved in the coup attempt.
He has not banned anything related to amercian culture as you can see:
Finally, the report you posted questioning his democratic creditials, only points out how the oposition messed things up by backing the coup and then boycotting the elections. They are responsible for their own downfall.
How many other heads of state can face a recall referendum? None that I'm aware of.
You used this to assert that he is racist towards the British and North Americans. You've done nothing of the sort. Your accusations are baseless and are driven by a dislike of his politics rather than any sort of encounter with the facts.
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 10:12 AM)
From his banning of Christain US citizens .
QUOTE
WRONG - AGAIN. He's a christian. His remarks referred to Pat Robertson and his supporters who met with the people behind the coup attempt and then called for Chavez to be assassinated.
These people have nothing to do with Robertson.So why did he expell them.Surely not a revenge for Robertsons comments? No.For believing they are 'American imperialists'. Which shows his Anti-american zenophobic mindset.
The Venezuelan government has given a Christian missionary group from the US until Sunday to leave the country.
President Hugo Chavez has repeatedly called for the expulsion of the New Tribes Mission, saying they are American imperialists.
He has called them spies of the CIA and colonialists.
The New Tribes Mission says it has not received official notification of the deadline, and it is awaiting clarification.
Most of the 160 evangelical preachers and their families have already gone back to the US, after he asked them to leave last October.
Only 30 New Tribes missionaries are still in Venezuela.
For the past 60 years, the New Tribes Mission, which has its world headquarters in Florida, has been trying to convert indigenous groups in Venezuela to Christianity.
It is a non-denominational Christian society which says it is only funded by private individuals, not by the US government. Indigenous groups
The missionaries live and work in the remotest areas of the country, including the Amazon rainforest.
Their goal is to find tribes untouched by Western culture in order to convert them to Christianity.
So far New Tribes representatives have been preaching to 12 different indigenous groups here in Venezuela.
The group says it gives indigenous people basic health care and literacy classes.
But a spokesman for New Tribes has told the BBC all the missionaries have left the tribal areas to comply with the Venezuelan government's demands.
However this may not be enough for Venezuela's interior ministry, which has called for the missionaries to leave the country altogether.
QUOTE
He has not banned anything related to amercian culture as you can see:
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.
"Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches. This is contrary to our way," Mr Chavez said during his weekly radio and TV show.
He also said Halloween was a "game of terror", the AP news agency reported.
Mr Chavez is known as a fierce critic of the US government and President George W Bush personally.
Halloween is marked by children dressing up in scarey costumes
The president recently described the Bush administration as a terrorist government.
Mr Chavez said Halloween was part of the US culture of "putting fear into other nations, putting fear into their own people".
He did not refer to incidents earlier this month when lanterns made from hollowed pumpkins carrying anti-government messages appeared in several places in the capital, Caracas.
Halloween, a pagan festival characterised by mischiefmaking, is marked every year on 31 October
QUOTE
Finally, the report you posted questioning his democratic creditials, only points out how the oposition messed things up by backing the coup and then boycotting the elections. They are responsible for their own downfall.
Most opposition candidates pulled out of the race in protest at what they saw as a biased electoral board and flawed vote counting practices.
Professor Lopez-Maya, who is sympathetic to the goals of Mr Chavez's revolutionary cause, admits that Venezuela's firebrand leader has a tendency of concentrating and centralising power.
She said: "The democratic spaces in the Venezuelan state are being closed off and before too long there will be an imbalance of power in the state's institutions." "Mr Chavez will find it difficult to avoid falling into the trap of ruling like a totalitarian autocrat," "If he uses parliament as a fig leaf of democracy he will become more and more isolated internationally."
QUOTE
You used this to assert that he is racist towards the British and North Americans. You've done nothing of the sort. Your accusations are baseless and are driven by a dislike of his politics rather than any sort of encounter with the facts.
Well, he hates the demoratic leaders of both countries.The leaders that WE as people have voted for.He also hates the power that the two countries have in the world.The power that we as a 'people',have created through hardwork over many gernerations.It seems the only Americans and Britains that he has any time for are the ones who hates their own country and institutions ,as much as he does.
QUOTE(Pete @ May 15 2006, 11:06 AM)
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 10:12 AM)
From his banning of Christain US citizens .
It was typing error.I know how to spell Christian.
Some of us have to rush our posts.As we have otherwork to do.Also try reading my links more carefully,before you mouth off.It may give you the answers you are looking for.If you plead non-understanding,whilst everyone else has read the particular quotes i am refuring too.It makes you look Gormless and ignorant.
QUOTE
It seems the only Americanas and Britains that he has any time for are the ones who hates there own country and institutions ,as much as he does.
WTF is that about?
So Ken hates his own country cause he held a reception for Chavez?
Dude, you need to get a fucking grip on reality.
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 11:23 AM)
These people have nothing to do with Robertson.So why did he expell them.Surely not a revenge for Robertsons comments? No.For believing they are 'American imperialists'. Which shows his Anti-american zenophobic mindset.
The New Tribes Mission, have been widely criticised for their behaviour towards indigenous people.
For example: from survival international:
More recent arrivals to the Ayoreo's land are the fundamentalist missionaries of the American New Tribes Mission (NTM). The NTM has tried to convert many Ayoreo, and established a colony at a place called Campo Loro.
In 1979 and 1986 'evangelised' Indians, with the backing of the NTM, went into the forest to bring out uncontacted Ayoreo, from a group known as the Totobiegosode - 'people from the place of the wild pig'. At least five of the 'evangelised' Ayoreo died during these expeditions, as the uncontacted Indians tried to defend themselves from capture. Several of those brought to Campo Loro died soon after through ill-health. Campaigns by Survival and others brought a halt to these 'manhunts'
They were operating illegal flights and to be honest, i think they deserved to be expelled. However, all of this relates to the actions of one group, not, as you claim, an attempt by the (Christian) President Chavez, to expell Christians.
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 11:23 AM)
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.
"Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches. This is contrary to our way," Mr Chavez said during his weekly radio and TV show.
He also said Halloween was a "game of terror", the AP news agency reported.
He said he didn't like Haloween and that people shouldn't observe it in Venezuela. Big deal.. does that amount to a ban on US culture ... Of course it doesn't.
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 11:23 AM)
[i]Most opposition candidates pulled out of the race in protest at what they saw as a biased electoral board and flawed vote counting practices.
Professor Lopez-Maya, who is sympathetic to the goals of Mr Chavez's revolutionary cause, admits that Venezuela's firebrand leader has a tendency of concentrating and centralising power.
She said: "The democratic spaces in the Venezuelan state are being closed off and before too long there will be an imbalance of power in the state's institutions." "Mr Chavez will find it difficult to avoid falling into the trap of ruling like a totalitarian autocrat," "If he uses parliament as a fig leaf of democracy he will become more and more isolated internationally."
Profesor Lopez Maya also said of the opposition:
"They only have themselves to blame for the disastrous blunder of pulling out of the race."
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 11:23 AM)
Well, he hates the demoratic leaders of both countries.The leaders that WE as people have voted for.He also hates the power that the two countries have in the world.The power that we as a 'people',have created through hardwork over many gernerations.It seems the only Americans and Britains that he has any time for are the ones who hates their own country and institutions ,as much as he does.
By your logic, about 65% of Americans currently hate the US (Bush's poll ratings currently in the mid-30s)
Blair's approval ratings are even lower. Do most Americans and British people hate Britain and the US? Of course they don't. It's like saying you hate Venezuelans. I'm sure you don't.
Let's face it, you don't like him because you don't like the left. That's ok, but your accusations of racism are completely baseless.
Would you find this comment racist if Tony Blair said this.YES or NO.
He's the same quote by Chavez
QUOTE
Blair has urged families not to mark Dwali or 'Carnival', calling it a foriegn custom alien to the British nation.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children with costumes and feathers.This is contrary to our way''.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children with costumes and feathers.This is contrary to our way''.
He's the same quote by Chavez
QUOTE
Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches,this is contrary to our way''
''Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches,this is contrary to our way''
Halloween isn't the same as Divali you idiot
In its current form, it is an overly commercial load of tosh in order to cram kids full of candy.
If he was trying to ban the proper pagan festival or the Mexican Day of the Dead then you might have a claim but as he isn't - shut the hell up.
In its current form, it is an overly commercial load of tosh in order to cram kids full of candy.
If he was trying to ban the proper pagan festival or the Mexican Day of the Dead then you might have a claim but as he isn't - shut the hell up.
Hugo Chavez for president of the world!
Democratically elected, of course! ;-)
Democratically elected, of course! ;-)
November?
The whole article is on page 3 of today's Guardian. I am choked that I missed the event, as it would have been much more enjoyable than Brentford v Swansea. Tell me next time, Graham...
Viva Chavez! Viva Venezuela libre!
Viva Chavez! Viva Venezuela libre!
And KLF's comparison of Halloween and Diwali (which he also can't spell) shows him up as the racist he is. Keep it coming if you want, mate, and I guess it stimulates debate.
But I don't ever expect to see you at a BB gig. Coming to Brixton tonight? Staying at home? Thought so.
Wanker.
But I don't ever expect to see you at a BB gig. Coming to Brixton tonight? Staying at home? Thought so.
Wanker.
OK.
Scrap the Dwali link.Thats a religious festival.
Amended:
He's the same quote by Chavez
Discuss.
PS.Pete,cut out the cowardly abuse,mate.
Scrap the Dwali link.Thats a religious festival.
Amended:
QUOTE
Blair has urged families not to mark 'Carnival', calling it a foriegn custom alien to the British nation.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children with costumes and feathers.This is contrary to our way''.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children with costumes and feathers.This is contrary to our way''.
He's the same quote by Chavez
QUOTE
Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches,this is contrary to our way''
''Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches,this is contrary to our way''
Discuss.
PS.Pete,cut out the cowardly abuse,mate.
QUOTE(Fred E @ May 15 2006, 02:02 PM)
Hugo Chavez for president of the world!
Democratically elected, of course! ;-)
It really amazes me how sane intelligent Lefties can so easily disengage their brains ,when it comes to world politics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4875906.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4777972.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4682488.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4479280.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599260.stm
Just to reiterate, Chavez does have a mandate from his people.
You mentioned things, KLF, "Which shows his Anti-american zenophobic mindset."
Whilst it's clear as crystal we're not sharing the same political or philosophical ideas I wonder sometimes if we're sharing the same planet.
What on earth can you come up with that would convince Hugo Chavez that his distrust of the US and the companies which operate on it's behalf in Venezuela, is unjustified?
Also he doesn't hate Americans.
He's just one person amongst MILLIONS that hate the current administration and it's puppet head, Bush. More than 70% of Americans think Bush is a wanker now.
FFS the man is actually practicing what he preaches when he talks about redistributing wealth, be it monetary or mineral, more failry. Why should his country allow it's vast mineral wealth flow into the hands of people who actively ensure that Venezuelans remain poor and uneducated?
The propaganda war is well under way and you're swallowing it like a good un. He must be evil because the CIA say so? Of course. And Saddam Hussein had nuclear war heads ready to launch against the UK in 45 minutes.
QUOTE
Chávez, a former army major, was anxious to prove he was not yet another military "strongman". He promised that his every move would be subject to the will of the people. In his first year as president in 1999, he held an unprecedented number of votes: a referendum on whether or not people wanted a new constituent assembly; elections for the assembly; a second referendum ratifying the new constitution - 71% of the people approved each of the 396 articles that gave Mavis and Celedonia and Ana Lucia, and their children and grandchildren, unheard-of freedoms, such as Article 123, which for the first time recognised the human rights of mixed-race and black people, of whom Chávez is one. "The indigenous peoples," it says, "have the right to maintain their own economic practices, based on reciprocity, solidarity and exchange ... and to define their priorities ... " The little red book of the Venezuelan constitution became a bestseller on the streets. Nora Hernandez, a community worker in Petare barrio, took me to her local state-run supermarket, which is funded entirely by oil revenue and where prices are up to half those in the commercial chains. Proudly, she showed me articles of the constitution written on the backs of soap-powder packets. "We can never go back," she said.
You mentioned things, KLF, "Which shows his Anti-american zenophobic mindset."
Whilst it's clear as crystal we're not sharing the same political or philosophical ideas I wonder sometimes if we're sharing the same planet.
What on earth can you come up with that would convince Hugo Chavez that his distrust of the US and the companies which operate on it's behalf in Venezuela, is unjustified?
Also he doesn't hate Americans.
QUOTE
While in Vienna, he said he would like to provide cheap heating oil for Europeans on low incomes as he had to needy Americans in the eastern US this winter.
He's just one person amongst MILLIONS that hate the current administration and it's puppet head, Bush. More than 70% of Americans think Bush is a wanker now.
FFS the man is actually practicing what he preaches when he talks about redistributing wealth, be it monetary or mineral, more failry. Why should his country allow it's vast mineral wealth flow into the hands of people who actively ensure that Venezuelans remain poor and uneducated?
The propaganda war is well under way and you're swallowing it like a good un. He must be evil because the CIA say so? Of course. And Saddam Hussein had nuclear war heads ready to launch against the UK in 45 minutes.
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 01:57 AM)
QUOTE
Graham.....he denounced racism
Unless its aginst Americans or Britains,of course.
When did 'American' become a race?
QUOTE(Martyn @ May 15 2006, 04:09 PM)
Just to reiterate, Chavez does have a mandate from his people.
QUOTE
Chávez, a former army major, was anxious to prove he was not yet another military "strongman". He promised that his every move would be subject to the will of the people. In his first year as president in 1999, he held an unprecedented number of votes: a referendum on whether or not people wanted a new constituent assembly; elections for the assembly; a second referendum ratifying the new constitution - 71% of the people approved each of the 396 articles that gave Mavis and Celedonia and Ana Lucia, and their children and grandchildren, unheard-of freedoms, such as Article 123, which for the first time recognised the human rights of mixed-race and black people, of whom Chávez is one. "The indigenous peoples," it says, "have the right to maintain their own economic practices, based on reciprocity, solidarity and exchange ... and to define their priorities ... " The little red book of the Venezuelan constitution became a bestseller on the streets. Nora Hernandez, a community worker in Petare barrio, took me to her local state-run supermarket, which is funded entirely by oil revenue and where prices are up to half those in the commercial chains. Proudly, she showed me articles of the constitution written on the backs of soap-powder packets. "We can never go back," she said.
You mentioned things, KLF, "Which shows his Anti-american zenophobic mindset."
Whilst it's clear as crystal we're not sharing the same political or philosophical ideas I wonder sometimes if we're sharing the same planet.
What on earth can you come up with that would convince Hugo Chavez that his distrust of the US and the companies which operate on it's behalf in Venezuela, is unjustified?
Also he doesn't hate Americans.
QUOTE
While in Vienna, he said he would like to provide cheap heating oil for Europeans on low incomes as he had to needy Americans in the eastern US this winter.
He's just one person amongst MILLIONS that hate the current administration and it's puppet head, Bush. More than 70% of Americans think Bush is a wanker now.
FFS the man is actually practicing what he preaches when he talks about redistributing wealth, be it monetary or mineral, more failry. Why should his country allow it's vast mineral wealth flow into the hands of people who actively ensure that Venezuelans remain poor and uneducated?
The propaganda war is well under way and you're swallowing it like a good un. He must be evil because the CIA say so? Of course. And Saddam Hussein had nuclear war heads ready to launch against the UK in 45 minutes.
Chevez may well hate the American administation,but they are a world superpower.His country is not.As such there is only going to be one winner.Its like at school.You may well have hated the toughest kid in school.He was probably a bully.Everyone hated him,but you didn't mouth off about him and antagonise him, because he was more powerful.Wet behind the ears Chevez has not learnt this basic leasson in life.
Look . Believe it or not,i believe in nationalisation.I wish Britain had never privatised Trains,gas, electric, coal,Local authority services...etc.I believe Chevez's desire to renationalise his countries oil,is born out of noble intentions to improve the life of the poorer majority in his country.I just believe his policy of taxing the richer members of his country (the ones bringing money in) is naive.Echos of Zimbabawe.It would take a genius and an inspirational leader to pull off what Chevez is planning.I don't think he is in that catagory whatsoever.
The warning signs have already started,whilst Chevez spouts ideological dreams and victriolic denouncments of The West and capitalism.The situation on the ground in his own country is already getting worse.Whilst the road and transport infrastructure collapses,and food doesn't reach the shops,he is spending billions and billions of dollars on arms and weaponry.we've seen it all before.It'll end in tears and the ordinary people will suffer the most.As usual.
Just to say, what you said Pete, to the klf, I thought was out of order.
You fellas may have history that I don't know about, but come on ..........
You fellas may have history that I don't know about, but come on ..........
QUOTE
The situation on the ground in his own country is already getting worse.Whilst the road and transport infrastructure collapses,and food doesn't reach the shops,he is spending billions and billions of dollars on arms and weaponry
Not with the US he isn't... US Bans arms sales to Venezuela.
QUOTE
US officials argue that the rule of President Chavez is eroding democracy and human rights in Venezuela and that he is working to undermine American influence in the region.
What can you say in response to a statement like that?
To quote Pilger once again...
QUOTE
Chávez is, of course, a threat, especially to the United States. Like the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, who based their revolution on the English co-operative moment, and the moderate Allende in Chile, he offers the threat of an alternative way of developing a decent society: in other words, the threat of a good example in a continent where the majority of humanity has long suffered a Washington-designed peonage.
You may be right KLF. Chavez might indeed be overthrown in some kind of military coup funded and organised by the US and the CIA. But it won't have been because he's a threat to democracy or freedom. It's because he's educating the fucking slaves that work for almost nothing to keep uncle Sam in clover.
America doesn't like its help getting above itself. They should know their place and if they get uppity, well someone is going to have to give them a bloody good slap down.
I can't believe I'm going to live in that bloddy place.
I know I'll be in good company with plenty of Americans who are in despair at what that fucking mindless fuckwit has allowed to happen in the name of the United States. With a complete waste of space in the whitehouse surrounded by brilliant but evil men, the US, taking the world with it, slides ever nearer to the precipice and there's bugger all anybody seems to be able to do about it.
Martyn,i can't believe you are moving to the country you hate most in the world 
Are you mad?
Why not relocate to Venezuela? Seriously.
The only reason i can see that you would choose to live in Britain or America ,is for financial and material comfort.Living off the capitalist system that you hate so much.Thats why i have geat repsect for people like P.Shay.She backed up her talk with action,and actually put herself out and rejected the comfort of the 'sytsem', in order to be true to her beliefs.
Are you mad?Why not relocate to Venezuela? Seriously.
The only reason i can see that you would choose to live in Britain or America ,is for financial and material comfort.Living off the capitalist system that you hate so much.Thats why i have geat repsect for people like P.Shay.She backed up her talk with action,and actually put herself out and rejected the comfort of the 'sytsem', in order to be true to her beliefs.
QUOTE
Martyn,i can't believe you are moving to the country you hate most in the world ohmy.gif Are you mad?
I think you're confusing things klf... I love my country but hate the asshole in charge. You can't confuse the two. I imagine it's the same for Martyn, seeing as he hasn't really ever lived there before he really can't hate it yet.
V was in Venezuela earlier this year. His experience seemed to be that the poor people he encountered in the Barrios were very pro-Chavez, treating him as a kind of superhero, and the wealthy classes were all anti-Chavez with his anti-American and wealth redistribution policies, dismissing him as a complete nutter.
Which may not be a very profound political analysis, but pretty much tells me all i need to know.
Which may not be a very profound political analysis, but pretty much tells me all i need to know.
QUOTE(the klf @ May 15 2006, 02:44 PM)
OK.
Scrap the Dwali link.Thats a religious festival.
Amended:
QUOTE
Blair has urged families not to mark 'Carnival', calling it a foriegn custom alien to the British nation.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children with costumes and feathers.This is contrary to our way''.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children with costumes and feathers.This is contrary to our way''.
He's the same quote by Chavez
QUOTE
Chavez has urged families not to mark Halloween, calling it a US custom alien to the South American nation.
''Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches,this is contrary to our way''
''Families go and begin to disguise their children as witches,this is contrary to our way''
Discuss.
Well carnival is about as intrinsic to European culture (and many others obviously) as France! So your analogy still doesn't work. Halloween, on the other hand, is about as intrinsic to Venezuelan culture as Samba is to Slough.
QUOTE(keri @ May 16 2006, 10:00 AM)
I think you're confusing things klf... I love my country but hate the asshole in charge. You can't confuse the two. I imagine it's the same for Martyn, seeing as he hasn't really ever lived there before he really can't hate it yet.
You need to be able to distinguish between a nation and its government.
I don't think you are able to do that.
QUOTE(joaniecrumpet @ May 16 2006, 10:07 AM)
V was in Venezuela earlier this year. His experience seemed to be that the poor people he encountered in the Barrios were very pro-Chavez, treating him as a kind of superhero, and the wealthy classes were all anti-Chavez with his anti-American and wealth redistribution policies, dismissing him as a complete nutter.
Which may not be a very profound political analysis, but pretty much tells me all i need to know.
QUOTE(Pete @ May 16 2006, 02:40 PM)
QUOTE(keri @ May 16 2006, 10:00 AM)
I think you're confusing things klf... I love my country but hate the asshole in charge. You can't confuse the two. I imagine it's the same for Martyn, seeing as he hasn't really ever lived there before he really can't hate it yet.
You need to be able to distinguish between a nation and its government.
I don't think you are able to do that.
A government IS the nation.It has been voted by the nation to represent the nation.Anyway,its not just the government you hate.You hate everything about America.Its power on the world stage,the fact that it is a financial giant.The fact that its free market influences and effects the whole world . You hate its capitalism.In fact everything it stands for.You will no doubt grow to hate every future American government.Just as you have done with every British government.WHY.Because you hate America and everything it stands for.You also have an inbuilt hostility and resentment towards the majority of the America population.(the white middle classes)
So you don't love America.You love certain bits of it and certain communites and people that live there.Thats why the claim that Chevez doesn't hate America and everything it stands for because he offered cheap oil to the poor areas,is a hollow as Petes claim to like 'America' because you took a bus ride around Harlem.
The Left have always been very selective as to who deserves their attention,concern,and respect.And its no different with regard to their view of America and it citizens.
Edited..Pete... I'm addressing the wider 'Left' as a whole, rather than yourself specifically,in this post.
Fascinating.
lol retarded.
i love america, proud to be an american too. it is possible to be left wing and be patriotic. i'm not toally against capitalism either, i'm just against greedy self servering motherfuckers, one of whom lives and works in white house right now.
off to eat my apple pie and sing my national anthem.
i love america, proud to be an american too. it is possible to be left wing and be patriotic. i'm not toally against capitalism either, i'm just against greedy self servering motherfuckers, one of whom lives and works in white house right now.
off to eat my apple pie and sing my national anthem.
QUOTE
The fact that its free market influences and effects the whole world
You are completely and utterly devoid of even a shred of a clue KLF.
What influences and affects the whole world is that the United States of America, more than almost any other country on the planet espouses "a free market economy", whilst avoiding every tenet of that economic philosophy as is humanly possible.
But you still love 'em really. 
QUOTE(keri @ May 16 2006, 04:19 PM)
off to eat my apple pie and sing my national anthem.
in Spanish, i hope
yeah at least i know the god damn words, which is more than i can say for a majority of the fckers in congress.
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